Judge Orders Defendant to Decrypt Laptop

[casascius]

What if they turn over an unencrypted copy of whatever they feel like.  The recipient has no way to prove that what they were given was or was not the actual complete content of the drive.

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[realnowhereman]

You suggestion is that unless someone is found guilty, they should not suffer a breach of privacy.  That would simply mean that a burglar has only to lock the door of his apartment and he is free to carry on robbing unless caught in the act.  That's a bad idea.

You're putting words in my mouth.  My argument is that people should not suffer this additional breach of privacy -- we're talking about decrypting laptops, none of what you describe above comes under that category.

On their laptops, people keep their private correspondence, maybe a diary, maybe a list of all their passwords to web sites, maybe emails from their mistresses, maybe lots of gay porn that would out them, presidential death threats that they wrote but never sent, etc.  In short: their entire life is concentrated in one place; such is the power of modern technology.

I can understand a search warrant for my physical property -- look for all the physical evidence you want.  But to open up my laptop is to open up pretty much every part of my life; and I find that a bridge too far.

Obviously, my opinion is worthless; governments have always, and will continue to do whatever they like.  But requiring a password is to require knowledge that is in my head; and my belief is that the boundary of a search warrant's power should be my skull.

[JusticeForYou]

Obviously, my opinion is worthless; governments have always, and will continue to do whatever they like.  But requiring a password is to require knowledge that is in my head; and my belief is that the boundary of a search warrant's power should be my skull.

Agreed.

It is forcing testimony by threat of action. The 5th Amendment should apply but Judges are to old and don't understand computers for the most part. In another 20 Years, they will get replaced with a more understandable crowd of Judges.

I believe, the current Judges look at like a safe, they say open it or else.

I would still say: "I don't remember the password."   How do you prove her wrong? Even if she had it open when they arrived. The stress of them arriving must have caused a lapse in her memory.

It is time for the courts to catch up with technology. It was hoped they would do it by adapting but it seems they are staunchly protecting the status quo. Some of these cases are absurd.

 You have this file on your computer, so your guilty. If I was a devious lawyer with a client like that, I would email the Judge, Prosecutor, and the Jury the file.  Closing Arguments: If you find my client guilty ladies and gentlemen, you must also find yourselves guilty. Have you checked your email, lately.

[Hawker]

This is clearly a breach of the 5th Amendment. IANAL either, but I am a rational human being with some common sense. When arrested, you're not obligated to lift a finger to help the prosecutors. You're (supposed to be) free to keep your mouth shut the entire time. But suddenly some judge thinks it's appropriate to require someone to aid their efforts at obtaining information?

nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself

That judge's order is total BS, a trampling of the spirit and letter of the 5th, and just flat-out contemptible.

Makes me wonder when was the last time the judiciary got away with demanding someone produce a key to a lockbox, and holding them indefinitely until said key was produced.

"But your honor, I *thought* I put the key behind the shed, but I hid so many I honestly don't know where else it could be!"

"Well, that's just too bad for you, isn't it? Life in prison then, for the crime of refusing to self-incriminate. Case dismissed... and let us know when your memory decides to cooperate."

Total BS.

The last time that happened was the last time someone made such a ridiculous statement in court. 

Seriously, you think a judge is going to sit there and allow a common thief to keep his ill gotten gains just by pretending that he doesn't remember where he hid the money? 

[Hawker]

You suggestion is that unless someone is found guilty, they should not suffer a breach of privacy.  That would simply mean that a burglar has only to lock the door of his apartment and he is free to carry on robbing unless caught in the act.  That's a bad idea.

...snip...

Obviously, my opinion is worthless; governments have always, and will continue to do whatever they like.  But requiring a password is to require knowledge that is in my head; and my belief is that the boundary of a search warrant's power should be my skull.

If someone robbed your computer, emptied your bitcoin wallet and you wanted your bitcoins back, you might feel a little differently when they say "Oh dear - I don't remember the password of my wallet.  I guess I just have to keep your money as otherwise it would be an invasion of my privacy." 

[JusticeForYou]

Seriously, you think a judge is going to sit there and allow a common thief to keep his ill gotten gains just by pretending that he doesn't remember where he hid the money?

  Your assumption is that he has already been found guilty. He is innocent until proven guilty.  And at least in this country, you can not be made to convict yourself.

Lets presume he is Innocent: Does him not wanting to allow it, make him Guilty?

Lets presume he is Guilty: Is he obliged to help the prosecutor find him Guilty?  If so, why do we need prosecutors? Fire them all, and lets just let the Judges find Guilt or Innocence. Might as well do away with Jurors too.

And the logic presented in your quote suggests that people don't forget things. The argument that 'it was important' so he shouldn't have forgotten is a false one.  (s) All the Husbands that have forgotten their Anniversary.

[JusticeForYou]

If someone robbed your computer, emptied your bitcoin wallet and you wanted your bitcoins back, you might feel a little differently when they say "Oh dear - I don't remember the password of my wallet.  I guess I just have to keep your money as otherwise it would be an invasion of my privacy."

Lets try another tactic:


Hawker, I remember you from somewhere. Oh, yea I did a BitCoin sale with you awhile back and you scammed me and kept my bitcoins without paying. Your a scammer. I want to see your wallet.dat file so I can prove it to the community that you are in fact a scammer. If you don't show me your wallet.dat file your ARE a scammer and deserving of the "Scammer Tag."

Your GUILTY.



^^note: This is not true but was used to prove an example case.

[Hawker]

If someone robbed your computer, emptied your bitcoin wallet and you wanted your bitcoins back, you might feel a little differently when they say "Oh dear - I don't remember the password of my wallet.  I guess I just have to keep your money as otherwise it would be an invasion of my privacy."

Lets try another tactic:


Hawker, I remember you from somewhere. Oh, yea I did a BitCoin sale with you awhile back and you scammed me and kept my bitcoins without paying. Your a scammer. I want to see your wallet.dat file so I can prove it to the community that you are in fact a scammer. If you don't show me your wallet.dat file your ARE a scammer and deserving of the "Scammer Tag."

Your GUILTY.



^^note: This is not true but was used to prove an example case.

If you have gone to court and the court requires it, how can I refuse?

Seriously, that is the exact purpose of courts.  If they couldn't do that, your only option would be a gun. 

[JusticeForYou]

If you have gone to court and the court requires it, how can I refuse?

Seriously, that is the exact purpose of courts.  If they couldn't do that, your only option would be a gun.

Assumptions might have been made on my part that might have confused the issue. ie. That you are a U.S. Citizen.

Many have gone to court and refused. Reporters for one, defendants for another, even witnesses. The biggest protections a citizen have here is the 1st and 5th amendments.

A court can and/has required reporters to give up sources. They refuse, if they want to stay a reporter.

A defendant is under no obligation to help the prosecutor convict himself. The knowledge that the judge seeks is in the defendants head. His 'words' / 'memory' are to be used against him.  Here is the catch, the vast majority think that him refusing makes him guilty because no one stands up for their rights anymore. He may just be an innocent standing up for his rights, or he may in fact be guilty but it is not his job to help the lynch mob to hang him.

 

[Explodicle]

If you have gone to court and the court requires it, how can I refuse?

Seriously, that is the exact purpose of courts.  If they couldn't do that, your only option would be a gun.  

[Emphasis mine] Would you please elaborate? To me it almost looks like you're saying the exact purpose of courts is to force people to do pretty much anything regardless of human rights.

[ZodiacDragon84]

You suggestion is that unless someone is found guilty, they should not suffer a breach of privacy.  That would simply mean that a burglar has only to lock the door of his apartment and he is free to carry on robbing unless caught in the act.  That's a bad idea.

...snip...

Obviously, my opinion is worthless; governments have always, and will continue to do whatever they like.  But requiring a password is to require knowledge that is in my head; and my belief is that the boundary of a search warrant's power should be my skull.

If someone robbed your computer, emptied your bitcoin wallet and you wanted your bitcoins back, you might feel a little differently when they say "Oh dear - I don't remember the password of my wallet.  I guess I just have to keep your money as otherwise it would be an invasion of my privacy." 

Perhaps one should have read the noob tutorials on the bitcointalk.org forums about securing your wallet, as the government will tell you you're SOL on getting your coins back. They want my passwords, they can pry them from my cold dead brain matter.

[JusticeForYou]

Perhaps one should have read the noob tutorials on the bitcointalk.org forums about securing your wallet, as the government will tell you you're SOL on getting your coins back. They want my passwords, they can pry them from my cold dead brain matter.

lol,

 I am sure their is a government sponsored biology lab somewhere working on that for a $1 Billion Grant. It wouldn't surprise me in the least.

[ZodiacDragon84]

Perhaps one should have read the noob tutorials on the bitcointalk.org forums about securing your wallet, as the government will tell you you're SOL on getting your coins back. They want my passwords, they can pry them from my cold dead brain matter.

lol,

 I am sure their is a government sponsored biology lab somewhere working on that for a $1 Billion Grant. It wouldn't surprise me in the least.

I Dunno. It's pretty scary upstairs for this guy! I'd hate to see what they dig up as my ghost watches in horror

[Hawker]

If you have gone to court and the court requires it, how can I refuse?

Seriously, that is the exact purpose of courts.  If they couldn't do that, your only option would be a gun.  

[Emphasis mine] Would you please elaborate? To me it almost looks like you're saying the exact purpose of courts is to force people to do pretty much anything regardless of human rights.

You don't have a human right to steal stuff. If you have stolen stuff, you don't have a human right to hide the evidence.  Your whole outlook seems to be based on the idea that one can steal stuff and then hide behind a façade of human rights law.  Thats not the case.

[JusticeForYou]

You don't have a human right to steal stuff. If you have stolen stuff, you don't have a human right to hide the evidence.  Your whole outlook seems to be based on the idea that one can steal stuff and then hide behind a façade of human rights law.  Thats not the case

At first, I thought you might have been from an odd country. Now, I am thinking... are you an Alien?


Yes, you don't have the right to steal stuff but thieves exist. Your premise is that the thief must, once stolen something, take it to the authorities and provide all evidence of what he has done. I presume, you also want him to put himself in the jail, lock the door, and throw away the key.

I again point to the fact that I can accuse you (falsely), and you must provide me with what ever is needed to prove that you did it. You obviously don't mind authorities rummaging through not only you physical belongings but your memories too.

But if you live in such a utopian world where thieves turn themselves in and provide all evidence against themselves, don't let anybody know where it is cause their will be a lot of criminals headed there.

[Explodicle]

If you have gone to court and the court requires it, how can I refuse?

Seriously, that is the exact purpose of courts.  If they couldn't do that, your only option would be a gun.  

[Emphasis mine] Would you please elaborate? To me it almost looks like you're saying the exact purpose of courts is to force people to do pretty much anything regardless of human rights.

You don't have a human right to steal stuff. If you have stolen stuff, you don't have a human right to hide the evidence.  Your whole outlook seems to be based on the idea that one can steal stuff and then hide behind a façade of human rights law.  Thats not the case.

Your choice to change "human rights" to "human rights law", and then call it a facade, is quite telling.  

Do you not believe in any right against self-incrimination at all, or do you believe it just does not apply to the location of damning evidence? I'm arguing for a negative right (to remain silent), not for a positive right (to steal or hide evidence).

[grue]

Perhaps one should have read the noob tutorials on the bitcointalk.org forums about securing your wallet, as the government will tell you you're SOL on getting your coins back. They want my passwords, they can pry them from my cold dead brain matter.

nah they'll just tourcher you. 

[ZodiacDragon84]

Perhaps one should have read the noob tutorials on the bitcointalk.org forums about securing your wallet, as the government will tell you you're SOL on getting your coins back. They want my passwords, they can pry them from my cold dead brain matter.

nah they'll just tourcher you. 

anyone will say anything to make torture stop, so that would be a fairly unreliable and archaic way to get information. Now Sodium Pentothal, that would probably do the trick, while violating my human rights at the same time. Its the American Way!

[JusticeForYou]

Perhaps one should have read the noob tutorials on the bitcointalk.org forums about securing your wallet, as the government will tell you you're SOL on getting your coins back. They want my passwords, they can pry them from my cold dead brain matter.

nah they'll just tourcher you. 

anyone will say anything to make torture stop, so that would be a fairly unreliable and archaic way to get information. Now Sodium Pentothal, that would probably do the trick, while violating my human rights at the same time. Its the American Way!

Well, since I really don't have massive secrets on my laptop. I'll hold out for a BJ from a cute Red Headed Woman. Blondes also accepted.

15 minute minimum.

Russia discovered that in the Cold War, screw torture and money, just give them sex.

[ZodiacDragon84]

Perhaps one should have read the noob tutorials on the bitcointalk.org forums about securing your wallet, as the government will tell you you're SOL on getting your coins back. They want my passwords, they can pry them from my cold dead brain matter.

nah they'll just tourcher you. 

anyone will say anything to make torture stop, so that would be a fairly unreliable and archaic way to get information. Now Sodium Pentothal, that would probably do the trick, while violating my human rights at the same time. Its the American Way!

Well, since I really don't have massive secrets on my laptop. I'll hold out for a BJ from a cute Red Headed Woman. Blondes also accepted.

15 minute minimum.

Russia discovered that in the Cold War, screw torture and money, just give them sex.

I too enjoy red heads. but remember, you give em your key, and there are redheads in prison, and they aint ladies