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Author Topic: Smart Money has left the building… Have you?  (Read 6656 times)
BTConomist
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January 28, 2012, 02:29:46 AM
 #61

My main point about BTC is that it's no gold — it's perishable gold (it's value decays when it is being hoarded).

Where's the expiration date that erodes the stored value?


When it comes to BTC, there's no such thing as a stored value.

BTC has a "carry forward" value, which decays when hoarded. But that's something I will discuss at some future date.

Right now, I just want me some real honey... Where are the real honey bees at?! I can already smell that $4.00 hive... If only it was up on the trees.

Volatility in the exchange rate helps to mitigate the tendency to hoard by cultivating an uncertainty about future value. So, the two tend to self regulate one another.

Not if hoarding is assumed to produce deflation in the long-term by making BTCs hard to come by.

Bitcoins are earned, not traded! If you plan on hoarding BTC, you're on my target list. (And yes, it is possible to swim in BTC.)

Don't give me that Bull... I'm one of those honey eating Bears that the bees hope to never meet again... Viva la BTC!!!
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molecular
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January 28, 2012, 07:54:52 AM
 #62

My main point about BTC is that it's no gold — it's perishable gold (it's value decays when it is being hoarded).

Where's the expiration date that erodes the stored value?


you might want to get some FreiCoin if you like demurrage.

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miscreanity
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January 28, 2012, 10:28:54 AM
 #63

So what are the "accounting periods", blocks maybe?  Why does that mean value decays?

If all the gold in the world were hoarded away indefinitely, an alternative would eventually be adopted over a period of time due to gold's disuse. The accounting period could be anything - hours, days, years, etc. Theoretical with gold, neither realistic nor likely.

It's still a potential for Bitcoin, but that's a rapidly shrinking possibility for the monetary aspect of the system. Also, the general structure of Bitcoin is immensely valuable, making the argument impractical outside of academia.

As for the stored value concept, traditional definitions do not satisfactorily encompass Bitcoin. Can value be removed from gold? Why or why not?
miscreanity
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January 28, 2012, 10:53:31 AM
 #64

you might want to get some FreiCoin if you like demurrage.

Demurrage is a great concept for traditional fiat-like currencies, but not a Bitcoin-style system: it attempts to ameliorate the issues inherent with human management. Since there is no human component directly involved in management of the money supply of Bitcoin, demurrage is redundant.

Eventually, Triffin's dilemma overcomes demurrage anyway. The divergence between the need for a savings vehicle that is being eroded and the need for price stability which slides further out along a parabolic curve causes too much strain over time, and no amount of effort can prevent a collapse then.

Bitcoin technically solves the dilemma by allowing for theoretically unlimited decimal expansion of the unit, similar to going from ounces of gold to grams. Instead of forcing either perpetually inflation or adamantly static supply, Bitcoin allows for what is effectively an periodic, incremental inflation; these resets are somewhat jarring, but should be mediated so long as market forces can function freely.

Prices would be relatively stable within a range and yet the same unit of savings still exists and remains fully intact, the same as if gold were infinitely divisible and we were able to actually make use of it an atom at a time. Anyone who had a single ounce would be immensely wealthy if a single gold atom were used as a $1 bill is today.

Obviously we can't use individual gold atoms as money in any known practical manner. Likewise, the difficulty that arises with Bitcoin is getting a protocol change that allows for further decimal expansion to actually take hold. A potential solution may be an alternative system that acts as a counterpart by removing the block generation limit, allowing for indefinite expansion. That would work the same as gold and fiat today, only there would again be no direct human management of the unit supply.
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January 28, 2012, 08:52:29 PM
 #65

Obviously we can't use individual gold atoms as money in any known practical manner. Likewise, the difficulty that arises with Bitcoin is getting a protocol change that allows for further decimal expansion to actually take hold. A potential solution may be an alternative system that acts as a counterpart by removing the block generation limit, allowing for indefinite expansion. That would work the same as gold and fiat today, only there would again be no direct human management of the unit supply.

Don't know if this is relevant here, but maybe that "alternative system that acts as a counterpart" could somehow be ripple?

Perhaps Bitcoin and Ripple can help each other, much like paper and gold complemented each other in the gold standard arrangements before they collapsed in 1971. However, this time, the technologies can be fundamentally peer-to-peer. A synthesis of Ripple and Bitcoin would create a sophisticated monetary system fully outside the control of any government or corporation.
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January 28, 2012, 09:20:02 PM
 #66


An exchange rate is merely an expression of one currency's value relative to that of other currencies.

But when it comes to BTC-denominated commercial transactions, BTC's value is still nonexistent (or near zero).

To say an exchange rate is merely an expression of one currency's value relative to that of other currencies is nothing but tautology, it completely ignores the mechanics of how the exchange rate gets to be that way. If you have any interest at all in quantitative finance that is not something you get to ignore.

What mechanics does it ignore?

Are you trying to point out that an exchange rate can be used to speculate on the future value of a currency? Because I don't discount that.

My main point about BTC is that it's no gold — it's perishable gold (it's value decays when it is being hoarded).

For purposes of use as a currency Bitcoin is superior to gold.

In order for gold to be transmitted it either requires an abstraction layer, which adds cost to the transaction, or it has to be transported physically, which also adds to the cost of transacitons. As well, an abstraction layer also makes gold vulnerable to fractionalization.

I look as Bitcoins as "internet cash"; Gold/Silver have become stores of value, a hedge against inflation. (back in the olden days, the PMs were embedded in the currency itself, never relinquishing the value of the currency itself. Sure miss those Denariums... and the Standing Liberties too.)
miscreanity
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January 28, 2012, 10:40:48 PM
 #67

Don't know if this is relevant here, but maybe that "alternative system that acts as a counterpart" could somehow be ripple?

Yes, there's an interesting dynamic there. Ripple provides a credit system, so it and Bitcoin would certainly be complementary. It doesn't work the way a contemporary currency does, though - the mechanism is different and there's no discrete Ripple 'unit'. It acts like a container for quantifiable currencies. That also means they solve somewhat separate problems, and there are different scalability factors.

There is still room left for other variants, including an inflatable system that can maintain stable prices indefinitely. For example, I think that if Bitcoin doesn't implement P2SH this year (the concern over BIP 12/16/17), another system might arise to do so.
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January 29, 2012, 12:58:00 AM
 #68

So is that few month old video some sort of secret message telling CBS and FOX insiders to invest in bitcoin? Or am I missing something?
I would help rally the BTC to at least 10USD, for good measure.

I hope that you can bring up BTC up to 10 USD as well as I wish to sell all of my BTC when the highest price (I'm hoping $60 or more) is reached then get on with my life again as I can confidently add to any future successes that I made a ton of money on BTC.

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January 29, 2012, 01:07:36 PM
 #69

So is that few month old video some sort of secret message telling CBS and FOX insiders to invest in bitcoin? Or am I missing something?
I would help rally the BTC to at least 10USD, for good measure.

I hope that you can bring up BTC up to 10 USD as well as I wish to sell all of my BTC when the highest price (I'm hoping $60 or more) is reached then get on with my life again as I can confidently add to any future successes that I made a ton of money on BTC.

The problem with picking tops is: you can't reliably do it, so: good luck Wink

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July 03, 2013, 09:46:06 PM
 #70

I concede, you guys were right all along. I'm out! see the rest of you suckers later

...مكتوب
Escape the plutocrats’ zanpakutō, Flower in the Mirror, Moon on the Water: brave “the ascent which is rough and steep” (Plato).
Jozzaboy
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July 03, 2013, 10:10:33 PM
 #71

Why are you reviving relic threads? Trying to make a point that forum sentiment is overly dramatic?

BTC: 16whd9eNR8WY9nVhUUevNYMbQB2eS1jtYF
I also accept precious metals, no paper money please.
molecular
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July 04, 2013, 11:13:26 AM
 #72

I concede, you guys were right all along. I'm out! see the rest of you suckers later

byebye

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