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Author Topic: Is there a way to combat this mining concentration AND get paid (some question  (Read 2529 times)
Rockford99
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January 27, 2012, 12:27:35 AM
 #1

Andreesen said that one mining pool had veto power over system changes.  I don't think that, in itself, is a big deal.  I know how to encrypt my wallet. 

On the other hand, I have no real understanding of what he's talking about.

1. Where are the "rules" about these large mining pools?  I didn't see it in Satoshi's white paper.
(please answer!)

2. Why does this matter?  Does the person who is awarded a block get to "control" it forever?

3. Instead of some commie a$$ appeal (sorry, I'm and 80s kid) to donate to smaller mining pools (which some of you were making), why can't I loan them to these "more virtuous" mining groups and get kicked back some of the discovered blocks, thus receiving a return on my investment - rather than "DONATING?"
If so, could you please such an enterprise!

4. Sorry if I sound like an arrogant buffoon that has a Bobby Knight poster on my wall, but I doubt I'm the only one who has the same misconception.  I'm buying BTC to try to make $$$ and am "tech-challenged."



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January 27, 2012, 01:50:25 AM
 #2

Andreesen said that one mining pool had veto power over system changes.  I don't think that, in itself, is a big deal.  I know how to encrypt my wallet. 

On the other hand, I have no real understanding of what he's talking about.

1. Where are the "rules" about these large mining pools?  I didn't see it in Satoshi's white paper.
(please answer!)

The rules are everything about how bitcoin works, such as:  Difficulty is calculated to set the block generation rate to about one every ten minutes.  There are 50 bitcoins generated in each block.  The reward halves every 4 years.  And so on.

Quote
2. Why does this matter?  Does the person who is awarded a block get to "control" it forever?

Gavin is wanting to change one of the rules, to allow multi-sig transactions.  If there is a mining pool with >50% of the hashing power, they could refuse to accept the new rule, and reject any transaction that doesn't follow the old rules.  The problem here is that the pool decides the content of the block being mined.  They decide which transactions to include and which to reject.  The miners have effectively given up any power they had on deciding the 'rules' to the pool operator.

The advantage of p2pool over the traditional pools is that each miner uses their own bitcoind to decide which transactions to include in the blocks they mine.  There's no central pool operator deciding whether to go with Gavin's rule or Luke's rule.  Each miner in the pool downloads either Gavin's bitcoind or Luke's bitcoind, hence getting their own 'vote'.

Quote
3. Instead of some commie a$$ appeal (sorry, I'm and 80s kid) to donate to smaller mining pools (which some of you were making), why can't I loan them to these "more virtuous" mining groups and get kicked back some of the discovered blocks, thus receiving a return on my investment - rather than "DONATING?"
If so, could you please such an enterprise!

The idea of the donations in to incentivise miners to use p2pool instead on one of the traditional pools (as if saving the (up to) 10% fees that the traditional pools charge isn't enough).  Having you loan some BTC only to have to pay you back more than you loan would be a disincentive.  What's in it for me as a miner?  I end up losing BTC to you.

Quote
4. Sorry if I sound like an arrogant buffoon that has a Bobby Knight poster on my wall, but I doubt I'm the only one who has the same misconception.  I'm buying BTC to try to make $$$ and am "tech-challenged."

It's OK.  I love David Hasselhoff's early work too.

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Rockford99
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January 27, 2012, 03:10:27 AM
 #3

If I loan them money that is intended to steer them to a particular pool, then they have MORE resources to mine with and can receive an incremental profit greater than otherwise and still reimburse me part of the additional profit?  Why wouldn't that work?  If not, these guys didn't really think through the design all that well.
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January 27, 2012, 03:24:56 AM
 #4

If you are not mining and just want to support a particular development over another try buying hashing power from a GBLSE or other mining company/person who is supporting what you want. Then you get a return.

Losing hundreds of Bitcoins with the best scammers in the business - BFL, Avalon, KNC, HashFast.
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January 27, 2012, 03:39:06 AM
 #5

Gavin is wanting to change one of the rules, to allow multi-sig transactions. 

What in the world does mulit-sig transactions mean?
Sam

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
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January 27, 2012, 03:42:16 AM
 #6

Gavin is wanting to change one of the rules, to allow multi-sig transactions. 

What in the world does mulit-sig transactions mean?
Sam

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=61125.0

It's the big craze.

BIP 16 / 17...etc
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January 27, 2012, 04:02:17 AM
 #7

Gavin is wanting to change one of the rules, to allow multi-sig transactions. 

What in the world does mulit-sig transactions mean?
Sam

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=61125.0

It's the big craze.

BIP 16 / 17...etc

OK, I guess I'll mine more at Deepbit.
Sam

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
Eveofwar
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January 27, 2012, 04:03:17 AM
 #8

Gavin is wanting to change one of the rules, to allow multi-sig transactions. 

What in the world does mulit-sig transactions mean?
Sam

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=61125.0

It's the big craze.

BIP 16 / 17...etc

OK, I guess I'll mine more at Deepbit.
Sam

I think that's the opposite of what most are wanting to happen, but to each their own Smiley
os2sam
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January 27, 2012, 04:20:20 AM
 #9

Gavin is wanting to change one of the rules, to allow multi-sig transactions. 

What in the world does mulit-sig transactions mean?
Sam

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=61125.0

It's the big craze.

BIP 16 / 17...etc

OK, I guess I'll mine more at Deepbit.
Sam

I think that's the opposite of what most are wanting to happen, but to each their own Smiley

Really, I didn't get that.

If deepbit is the problem then the solution is to get rid of pooled mining altogether.  The idea that because a pool is successful that it must be evil is offensive.  I would hope that all pools have the goal of success.  In my view a pool that wish's to fail is the one that is more evil.

Seems to me that some people thrive on creating solutions in search of a problem.

Success is NOT a bad thing.
Sam

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
Eveofwar
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January 27, 2012, 04:21:11 AM
 #10

Gavin is wanting to change one of the rules, to allow multi-sig transactions. 

What in the world does mulit-sig transactions mean?
Sam

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=61125.0

It's the big craze.

BIP 16 / 17...etc

OK, I guess I'll mine more at Deepbit.
Sam

I think that's the opposite of what most are wanting to happen, but to each their own Smiley

Really, I didn't get that.

If deepbit is the problem then the solution is to get rid of pooled mining altogether.  The idea that because a pool is successful that it must be evil is offensive.  I would hope that all pools have the goal of success.  In my view a pool that wish's to fail is the one that is more evil.

Seems to me that some people thrive on creating solutions in search of a problem.

Success is NOT a bad thing.
Sam

I think the "problem" is that Deepbit has the ability to veto any vote, due to their hashing power.  I could be wrong though, just what I got from Gavin's post.
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January 27, 2012, 04:28:14 AM
 #11

Gavin is wanting to change one of the rules, to allow multi-sig transactions. 

What in the world does mulit-sig transactions mean?
Sam

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=61125.0

It's the big craze.

BIP 16 / 17...etc

OK, I guess I'll mine more at Deepbit.
Sam

I think that's the opposite of what most are wanting to happen, but to each their own Smiley

Really, I didn't get that.

If deepbit is the problem then the solution is to get rid of pooled mining altogether.  The idea that because a pool is successful that it must be evil is offensive.  I would hope that all pools have the goal of success.  In my view a pool that wish's to fail is the one that is more evil.

Seems to me that some people thrive on creating solutions in search of a problem.

Success is NOT a bad thing.
Sam

I think the "problem" is that Deepbit has the ability to veto any vote, due to their hashing power.  I could be wrong though, just what I got from Gavin's post.

And the people who use deepbit, or any other pool, are in effect voting by proxy.  That is the individuals miners choice.

As for the solution in search of a problem comment, the less tinkering with something that works, the better.  I don't think we should be messing with the foundation of the way bitcoin works.  It just feeds the seed of distrust.

We now have encrypted wallets what else do we really need to secure our transactions?  Sending a message to my smartphone will really help that much?  Smartphones can't be compromised?  Really?
Sam

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
os2sam
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January 27, 2012, 05:01:37 AM
 #12

As for the solution in search of a problem comment, the less tinkering with something that works, the better.  I don't think we should be messing with the foundation of the way bitcoin works.  It just feeds the seed of distrust.

Pools are not the foundation of the way Bitcoin works. It was a hack to reduce variance for solo miners. Unfortunately, you normally pay a fee and give up your vote. If you like voting by proxy, great! Some people might want the choice to vote for themselves. This is why forrestv took the challenge and created P2Pool. Now you can have reduced variance and keep your vote. It doesn't require trust, which is a better model in my opinion. To each his own of course.

I know that pools weren't supposed to be the foundation of the way Bitcoin works.  But the Bitcoin community continually badgers and belittles people who want to solo mine because it is just "stupid" to not use a pool.  I felt that heat when I first got interested in Bitcoin.  So now that pooled mining is the only way to effectively mine for Bitcoin people want to gripe about paying a fee or the success of certain pools.  Well running a pool cost's money.  Now that the community has successfully forced miners into using pools they want to whine about said pools having too much power.  I think it is time for people to take responsibility for their own actions and quit whining about the success of others.

I haven't looked into the P2Pool, maybe I should.  But when it comes to money and greed there will always be way for someone to take advantage.  There is no such thing as something for nothing or a get rich quick scheme.

I still say we shouldn't be messing with trying to fix something that ain't broke.
Sam

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
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January 27, 2012, 05:03:59 AM
 #13

And the people who use deepbit, or any other pool, are in effect voting by proxy.  That is the individuals miners choice.

As for the solution in search of a problem comment, the less tinkering with something that works, the better.  I don't think we should be messing with the foundation of the way bitcoin works.  It just feeds the seed of distrust.

We now have encrypted wallets what else do we really need to secure our transactions?  Sending a message to my smartphone will really help that much?  Smartphones can't be compromised?  Really?
Sam

If you don't think we should be messing with the foundation of the way bitcoin works then why are mining at a pool which is for changing the foundation of the way bitcoin works  Huh

Losing hundreds of Bitcoins with the best scammers in the business - BFL, Avalon, KNC, HashFast.
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January 27, 2012, 05:15:49 AM
 #14

And the people who use deepbit, or any other pool, are in effect voting by proxy.  That is the individuals miners choice.

As for the solution in search of a problem comment, the less tinkering with something that works, the better.  I don't think we should be messing with the foundation of the way bitcoin works.  It just feeds the seed of distrust.

We now have encrypted wallets what else do we really need to secure our transactions?  Sending a message to my smartphone will really help that much?  Smartphones can't be compromised?  Really?
Sam

If you don't think we should be messing with the foundation of the way bitcoin works then why are mining at a pool which is for changing the foundation of the way bitcoin works  Huh

Have I missed something?

This Gavin guy wants to change the functioning of bitcoin to add an additional signature to the Bitcoin block which will require me to reply to a query sent to my smartphone when I want to initiate a transaction.  And he is worried that Deepbit won't honor those transactions?

So it seems to me that deepbit is voting, on my behalf, for the current status quo.

Besides, like I said before, if you don't like a pool being successful then lets all start solo mining again.  I would be fine with that.
Sam

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
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January 27, 2012, 05:27:15 AM
 #15

Have I missed something?

Yes, you missed that the debate isn't over weather or not to implement multi-sig transactions, but rather which protocol change is best to implement - and there are several, with support from different developers and pool operators.

Losing hundreds of Bitcoins with the best scammers in the business - BFL, Avalon, KNC, HashFast.
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January 27, 2012, 05:32:04 AM
 #16

Have I missed something?

Yes, you missed that the debate isn't over weather or not to implement multi-sig transactions, but rather which protocol change is best to implement - and there are several, with support from different developers and pool operators.

And my, consistent, point is why change it at all?  The impetus to make these changes is to make it harder to hijack someones unsecured wallet.  Hasn't that problem been solved with encrypted wallets?
Sam

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
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January 27, 2012, 05:55:29 AM
 #17

Have I missed something?

Yes, you missed that the debate isn't over weather or not to implement multi-sig transactions, but rather which protocol change is best to implement - and there are several, with support from different developers and pool operators.

And my, consistent, point is why change it at all?  The impetus to make these changes is to make it harder to hijack someones unsecured wallet.  Hasn't that problem been solved with encrypted wallets?
Sam

The impetus is to allow Bitcoin o be used by businesses and corporations, which often require TWO signatures on a check to send money. Currently you would have to assign a single person ALL the powers to spend money. That is a huge security risk for businesses. The "use a phone app to validate your sending coins" is just another bonus.
You also missed the point of P2Pool. It is exactly like a pool, in that you pool your mining power with everyone else, but it's better than a pool in that you pay no fees, you KEEP the transaction fees that pools usually keep, you get to configure your own miner however you wish and vote on whatever changes you want, you run your miner and pool software on your own computer, so don't have to worry about the pool going down for whatever reason, and being completely distributed, P2Pool can not be DDOSed. It's the best choice for capitalism, but is still not well known because it's so new and obscure. The "donations" are there to get people to bother to try it out, since part of a pool's appeal is total hashing rate: the higher the pool hash rate, the lower the variance. P2Pool had a fairly low has rate, thus high variance (there are still days when you won't find a block). Once more people join, the variance will go away, donation incentives won't be needed, and it'll be the superior option.

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January 27, 2012, 06:12:55 AM
 #18

Have I missed something?

Yes, you missed that the debate isn't over weather or not to implement multi-sig transactions, but rather which protocol change is best to implement - and there are several, with support from different developers and pool operators.

And my, consistent, point is why change it at all?  The impetus to make these changes is to make it harder to hijack someones unsecured wallet.  Hasn't that problem been solved with encrypted wallets?
Sam

The impetus is to allow Bitcoin o be used by businesses and corporations, which often require TWO signatures on a check to send money. Currently you would have to assign a single person ALL the powers to spend money. That is a huge security risk for businesses. The "use a phone app to validate your sending coins" is just another bonus.
You also missed the point of P2Pool. It is exactly like a pool, in that you pool your mining power with everyone else, but it's better than a pool in that you pay no fees, you KEEP the transaction fees that pools usually keep, you get to configure your own miner however you wish and vote on whatever changes you want, you run your miner and pool software on your own computer, so don't have to worry about the pool going down for whatever reason, and being completely distributed, P2Pool can not be DDOSed. It's the best choice for capitalism, but is still not well known because it's so new and obscure. The "donations" are there to get people to bother to try it out, since part of a pool's appeal is total hashing rate: the higher the pool hash rate, the lower the variance. P2Pool had a fairly low has rate, thus high variance (there are still days when you won't find a block). Once more people join, the variance will go away, donation incentives won't be needed, and it'll be the superior option.

That can be done in software/devices without modifying the protocol/blockchain.  It is up to the user/organization to implement it if they choose.  The encrypted wallet already provides for additional security, if a user chooses to implement it.

The P2Pool is something I haven't looked into and, as I said, I probably should.  Can't comment on that one way or the other.

I have no axe to grind about any pool.  If I'm going to use a pool it will be one that charges a fee and provides good service and has a business model that provides for longevity.  Being anti-deepbit just because they are successful isn't productive.  But folks are free to choose to do so.
Sam

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
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January 27, 2012, 03:35:16 PM
 #19

I have no axe to grind about any pool.  If I'm going to use a pool it will be one that charges a fee and provides good service and has a business model that provides for longevity.  Being anti-deepbit just because they are successful isn't productive.  But folks are free to choose to do so.

Yeah, um, I think you WAY overreacted with your "crusade against socialism" here, thinking this discussion had anything to do with socialism. We're (mostly) all free-market capitalists here. Leaving Deepbit is a pro-capitalist decision, and staying with Deebit is comparative to sticking with Kodak film cameras, just because you and others always have.

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January 27, 2012, 03:46:51 PM
 #20

Success is NOT a bad thing.
Sam

In this case it is.  Success = Centralization.  Centralization = Bad
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