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Author Topic: If you could create a new society from the ground up, what would you do?  (Read 3270 times)
Rigon
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May 23, 2014, 12:19:24 PM
 #21

Too many people are focusing on the political system of the new society.  The reality is that the political system will end up reflecting the population's inherent nature, sooner or later.

The solution is to carefully select your people.  Good genetics = good society.  Whatever traits you want society to have make sure that they are abundant in your founding stock.  Additionally you will want a sense of community, so make sure to select a small number of people, so that eventually everyone will have some sort of family connection to everyone else.  I might go with as few as 64 founders, assuming that we would have rapid population growth to cope with inbreeding concerns, though I would probably double or triple that just to be safe.  If population couldn't grow then I would select about 3000 founders.
People are always trying to gain power, and no matter how much conditioning to believe in the system they get, many someones will try to, and eventually successfully, put themselves above everyone else.

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sana8410
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May 23, 2014, 12:45:54 PM
 #22

Too many people are focusing on the political system of the new society.  The reality is that the political system will end up reflecting the population's inherent nature, sooner or later.

The solution is to carefully select your people.  Good genetics = good society.  Whatever traits you want society to have make sure that they are abundant in your founding stock.  Additionally you will want a sense of community, so make sure to select a small number of people, so that eventually everyone will have some sort of family connection to everyone else.  I might go with as few as 64 founders, assuming that we would have rapid population growth to cope with inbreeding concerns, though I would probably double or triple that just to be safe.  If population couldn't grow then I would select about 3000 founders.
People are always trying to gain power, and no matter how much conditioning to believe in the system they get, many someones will try to, and eventually successfully, put themselves above everyone else.
Someone who has a superiority complex almost always has self worth issues. It's ironic yes but if we removed the self worth issues, the superiority complexes would probably go too. Also, what could be achieved by putting yourself in power that would be any better for you that the situation you are in now?

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May 23, 2014, 03:13:01 PM
 #23

People are always trying to gain power, and no matter how much conditioning to believe in the system they get, many someones will try to, and eventually successfully, put themselves above everyone else.

Exactly, which is why only my idea works.  My founding population would include only people who do not try to gain power, and whose parents did not try to gain power.  The people in my society would have no desire to rule over others.  I wouldn't need to condition them, they would be born that way.

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May 23, 2014, 04:17:57 PM
 #24

People are always trying to gain power, and no matter how much conditioning to believe in the system they get, many someones will try to, and eventually successfully, put themselves above everyone else.

Exactly, which is why only my idea works.  My founding population would include only people who do not try to gain power, and whose parents did not try to gain power.  The people in my society would have no desire to rule over others.  I wouldn't need to condition them, they would be born that way.

Could you have an online community along these lines ? why does it necessarily have to be physical ?

On what grounds would someone gain access to such a community/society ?
Rigon
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May 23, 2014, 04:38:16 PM
 #25

Too many people are focusing on the political system of the new society.  The reality is that the political system will end up reflecting the population's inherent nature, sooner or later.

The solution is to carefully select your people.  Good genetics = good society.  Whatever traits you want society to have make sure that they are abundant in your founding stock.  Additionally you will want a sense of community, so make sure to select a small number of people, so that eventually everyone will have some sort of family connection to everyone else.  I might go with as few as 64 founders, assuming that we would have rapid population growth to cope with inbreeding concerns, though I would probably double or triple that just to be safe.  If population couldn't grow then I would select about 3000 founders.
People are always trying to gain power, and no matter how much conditioning to believe in the system they get, many someones will try to, and eventually successfully, put themselves above everyone else.
Someone who has a superiority complex almost always has self worth issues. It's ironic yes but if we removed the self worth issues, the superiority complexes would probably go too. Also, what could be achieved by putting yourself in power that would be any better for you that the situation you are in now?
I don't think any amount of conditioning can change human nature.

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May 23, 2014, 04:40:58 PM
 #26

Too many people are focusing on the political system of the new society.  The reality is that the political system will end up reflecting the population's inherent nature, sooner or later.

The solution is to carefully select your people.  Good genetics = good society.  Whatever traits you want society to have make sure that they are abundant in your founding stock.  Additionally you will want a sense of community, so make sure to select a small number of people, so that eventually everyone will have some sort of family connection to everyone else.  I might go with as few as 64 founders, assuming that we would have rapid population growth to cope with inbreeding concerns, though I would probably double or triple that just to be safe.  If population couldn't grow then I would select about 3000 founders.
People are always trying to gain power, and no matter how much conditioning to believe in the system they get, many someones will try to, and eventually successfully, put themselves above everyone else.
Someone who has a superiority complex almost always has self worth issues. It's ironic yes but if we removed the self worth issues, the superiority complexes would probably go too. Also, what could be achieved by putting yourself in power that would be any better for you that the situation you are in now?
I don't think any amount of conditioning can change human nature.

We reep what we sow - and a seed only grows in favourable ground
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May 23, 2014, 05:20:30 PM
 #27

If you could create a new society from the ground up, what would you do?

Absolutely nothing, but live and let live.
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May 23, 2014, 05:24:12 PM
 #28

Could you have an online community along these lines ? why does it necessarily have to be physical ?

On what grounds would someone gain access to such a community/society ?

An online community where you can only gain admission through a rigorous family background check and where all members of the community agree only to marry other members of the community?  I guess it is possible, but people will be tempted to stray from the community, plus it won't be able to provide as much benefit.  Who wants to follow a bunch of strict rules... just to gain membership to a website?  It isn't worth it.

By making a physical community you can eliminate violent crime, and all of its associated costs.  For example Oslo would be a rape-free city if not for immigrants, because all of the hundreds of rapes committed there are committed by immigrants.

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May 23, 2014, 05:27:53 PM
 #29

..you can only gain admission through a rigorous family background check


That counts me out anyhow, wether it be virtual or not - there are some right whacko's in my family. There are more black sheep in my family than there are white sheep  Grin
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May 23, 2014, 05:28:26 PM
 #30

Too many people are focusing on the political system of the new society.  The reality is that the political system will end up reflecting the population's inherent nature, sooner or later.

The solution is to carefully select your people.  Good genetics = good society.  Whatever traits you want society to have make sure that they are abundant in your founding stock.  Additionally you will want a sense of community, so make sure to select a small number of people, so that eventually everyone will have some sort of family connection to everyone else.  I might go with as few as 64 founders, assuming that we would have rapid population growth to cope with inbreeding concerns, though I would probably double or triple that just to be safe.  If population couldn't grow then I would select about 3000 founders.
People are always trying to gain power, and no matter how much conditioning to believe in the system they get, many someones will try to, and eventually successfully, put themselves above everyone else.
Someone who has a superiority complex almost always has self worth issues. It's ironic yes but if we removed the self worth issues, the superiority complexes would probably go too. Also, what could be achieved by putting yourself in power that would be any better for you that the situation you are in now?
I don't think any amount of conditioning can change human nature.

We reep what we sow - and a seed only grows in favourable ground
Well I think that human nature is only how we have learn to behave due to our surroundings and that the personality is a defense mechanism to reality.

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Rigon
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May 23, 2014, 05:31:00 PM
 #31

Too many people are focusing on the political system of the new society.  The reality is that the political system will end up reflecting the population's inherent nature, sooner or later.

The solution is to carefully select your people.  Good genetics = good society.  Whatever traits you want society to have make sure that they are abundant in your founding stock.  Additionally you will want a sense of community, so make sure to select a small number of people, so that eventually everyone will have some sort of family connection to everyone else.  I might go with as few as 64 founders, assuming that we would have rapid population growth to cope with inbreeding concerns, though I would probably double or triple that just to be safe.  If population couldn't grow then I would select about 3000 founders.
People are always trying to gain power, and no matter how much conditioning to believe in the system they get, many someones will try to, and eventually successfully, put themselves above everyone else.
Someone who has a superiority complex almost always has self worth issues. It's ironic yes but if we removed the self worth issues, the superiority complexes would probably go too. Also, what could be achieved by putting yourself in power that would be any better for you that the situation you are in now?
I don't think any amount of conditioning can change human nature.

We reep what we sow - and a seed only grows in favourable ground
Well I think that human nature is only how we have learn to behave due to our surroundings and that the personality is a defense mechanism to reality.
Human beings are built-in "intentionally" (not literally but metaphorically, in the same sense that dogs are 'designed' with big ears for better hearing) to have low self-worth to get them to strive for better. We're competitive creatures. You can label that a pathology all you want and try to cure it until the sun rises in the west, it ain't gonna change.

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May 23, 2014, 05:35:02 PM
 #32

Well I think that human nature is only how we have learn to behave due to our surroundings and that the personality is a defense mechanism to reality.

It is an established scientific fact that personality is mostly genetic.

http://www.nytimes.com/1986/12/02/science/major-personality-study-finds-that-traits-are-mostly-inherited.html

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May 23, 2014, 10:22:52 PM
 #33

By making a physical community you can eliminate violent crime, and all of its associated costs.  For example Oslo would be a rape-free city if not for immigrants, because all of the hundreds of rapes committed there are committed by immigrants.

I suppose you have proof of this?

It is an established scientific fact that personality is mostly genetic.
Quote from: NYT Article
For most of the traits measured, more than half the variation was found to be due to heredity, leaving less than half determined by the influence of parents, home environment and other experiences in life.

Which means that if your little genetic cleansing experiment is to work, it would have to be carried out in an isolated location, but its not mostly genetic, its just over 50% attributed to genetics, the rest is the usual social forces at play.

I'm sure those ideas of yours though, have been tried many times, net result in most cases are crazy incestuous cultish communes, or political wise, crazy third reich-ists and their ideas of genetic ( racial ) purity.  

Any new society would have to take into account and come up with alternative solutions to deal with the usual human failings or else your little genetic social group would just start shrinking as you had to exclude members who break the rules.

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May 24, 2014, 04:52:24 AM
 #34

I suppose you have proof of this?

You don't have access to google?  If you had actually attempted to do some research you would have found out that I was wrong.  It seems that muslim immigrants are committing only half of the rapes in Oslo.  Keep in mind that "only half" is still huge when you consider that they form only 1.5% of the population.  By simply sending these people back home they could cut the rape rate in half overnight.  However the elites don't want that, so it won't happen.  Pro-immigration = pro-rape.

The rest of your post is hysterics and catty attempts at insults.

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May 24, 2014, 05:57:28 AM
 #35

I would take the concept of the amana colonies

"The Amana Colonies were one of many utopian colonies established on American soil during the 18th and 19th centuries. There were hundreds of communal utopian experiments in the early United States, and the Shakers alone founded around 20 settlements. While great differences existed between the various utopian communities or colonies, each society shared a common bond in a vision of communal living in a utopian society. "

Internet of things.
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May 24, 2014, 06:08:53 AM
 #36

First thing first is research. Before I even think about creating a new society, I need to do my homework on it all. What's my demographics? What's the average intelligence of my people? What the averaged skilled labor force like?

After I do my research on the people, I need to apply that knowledge to different sectors of life. There's a lot of research that'd need to be to optimize growth of the society.

Overall, I have no idea, at least at this time in my life. Maybe if I spent the next 5-8 years working on this single subject would I be able to tell you the most optimal solution to the question.

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May 24, 2014, 06:58:13 AM
 #37

The rest of your post is hysterics and catty attempts at insults.

Oh you will know when I'm insulting you, I haven't tried to yet, so far I am just pointing out some rather large holes in your processing...

You don't have access to google?  If you had actually attempted to do some research you would have found out that I was wrong.

Well, being that you were the one making the outrageous claim, the onus is actually on you to back it up yourself with your research.

Quote
Pro-immigration = pro-rape.

[sighs]
Using the same logic, I could posit these other false dichotomies (without bothering to check 'Google'...):
- half the rapes in Oslo are committed by people of other ethnicities, so pro multiculturalism = pro rape
- half the rapes in Oslo are committed by people of Muslim faith, so not being anti muslim = pro rape
- half of the rapists are capitalists, so pro capitalism = pro rape
- half the rapists are socialists, so pro socialism = pro rape
- ALL the rapes were committed by males, so if you are not anti-male, then you are pro-rape

and on and on....so to come to the false conclusion from lets say, the last false dilemma...
False conclusion = By simply sending all the males to Sweden, rates of rape in Oslo could be cut to zero percent overnight ( i.e. mass gender cleansing )

This type of black white thing is often categorised as fallacy of false choice, stemming from fear of the other, and is usually the driving force behind great human tragedies such as ethnic cleansing. Any new societal structure would need established at its tenets, the understanding of the dangers of the fear of others that leads to the formation of false dilemmas and when political power in enacted, on rare occasions leads to great human atrocities.

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May 24, 2014, 09:40:58 AM
 #38

People are always trying to gain power, and no matter how much conditioning to believe in the system they get, many someones will try to, and eventually successfully, put themselves above everyone else.

Exactly, which is why only my idea works.  My founding population would include only people who do not try to gain power, and whose parents did not try to gain power.  The people in my society would have no desire to rule over others.  I wouldn't need to condition them, they would be born that way.

See quote below for why you are deluding yourself.

If you could control others, there would no longer be life and evolution, because competition would cease. A static system where everything is known a priori is in fact dead.

You have to allow for variance, e.g. in offspring.

Too many people are focusing on the political system of the new society.  The reality is that the political system will end up reflecting the population's inherent nature, sooner or later.

The solution is to carefully select your people.  Good genetics = good society.  Whatever traits you want society to have make sure that they are abundant in your founding stock.  Additionally you will want a sense of community, so make sure to select a small number of people, so that eventually everyone will have some sort of family connection to everyone else.  I might go with as few as 64 founders, assuming that we would have rapid population growth to cope with inbreeding concerns, though I would probably double or triple that just to be safe.  If population couldn't grow then I would select about 3000 founders.
People are always trying to gain power, and no matter how much conditioning to believe in the system they get, many someones will try to, and eventually successfully, put themselves above everyone else.
Someone who has a superiority complex almost always has self worth issues. It's ironic yes but if we removed the self worth issues, the superiority complexes would probably go too. Also, what could be achieved by putting yourself in power that would be any better for you that the situation you are in now?
I don't think any amount of conditioning can change human nature.

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May 24, 2014, 09:50:56 AM
 #39

I'll let my expert buddies do it

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May 24, 2014, 03:30:15 PM
 #40

Everyone of the world would get a piece of land and everyone gets exactly the same amount of land.
With a house and everything you need or want, you will also have a farm with animals, to make your own food.
You will also have a growinghouse where you can grow your own plants, Weed included!
So everyone on the world will be self sufficient And no one will be jalouse because other people have more.
So no one has to steal, and we can live in peace and harmony.
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