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Author Topic: New Mt. Gox class action in U.S.  (Read 5698 times)
edmundedgar
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June 08, 2014, 01:44:33 AM
 #21

More importantly, it is very bad political juju in Japan for the authorities to permit any activities that further trash the country's attractiveness as a direct foreign investment destination. It wouldn't hurt to put a little pressure on the financial regulators in Japan to straighten out this mess, if a way can be found.

They're much more likely to conclude that this bitcoin whole thing is a huge PITA, brush the Gox business under the carpet and do what they can to make life difficult for other bitcoin-related businesses.
I'm not sure how you know this, edmundedgar. Japan may have a lot more at stake with bitcoin than may otherwise seem:
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"Bitcoins are an example of technology allowing less emerging nations to "leapfrog" the conventional process of technological development.  In China, cellphones achieved widespread use before the creation of fixed-line phone networks is completed, another example of leapfrogging. Britain was late to adopt electricity because its streets were lighted by gas lamps. Germany and Japan used electricity from the beginning.

     The same thing is highly likely to occur in the financial system.

     If Myanmar and Bangladesh gain power as exporters, Asia's trade map will be greatly affected. In such circumstances, big business opportunities will be created in the bitcoin infrastructure field.

     Worldwide merchandize trade amounts to 1,500 trillion yen ($14.63 trillion) per year. Commission fees are at least 3%, or 45 trillion yen. The fees alone will create a huge market as far as the bitcoin is concerned."
http://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Economy/Economy/An-Asian-trade-revolution-in-the-making



I don't understand the relevance of that. Japan isn't Myanmar. It has excellent existing domestic electronic payments infrastructure: Fast, cheap or free bank transfers, near-universal POS digital money systems.
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DrApricot
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June 08, 2014, 04:46:23 AM
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I'm not sure how you know this, edmundedgar. Japan may have a lot more at stake with bitcoin than may otherwise seem:
Quote
"Bitcoins are an example of technology allowing less emerging nations to "leapfrog" the conventional process of technological development.  In China, cellphones achieved widespread use before the creation of fixed-line phone networks is completed, another example of leapfrogging. Britain was late to adopt electricity because its streets were lighted by gas lamps. Germany and Japan used electricity from the beginning.

     The same thing is highly likely to occur in the financial system.

     If Myanmar and Bangladesh gain power as exporters, Asia's trade map will be greatly affected. In such circumstances, big business opportunities will be created in the bitcoin infrastructure field.

     Worldwide merchandize trade amounts to 1,500 trillion yen ($14.63 trillion) per year. Commission fees are at least 3%, or 45 trillion yen. The fees alone will create a huge market as far as the bitcoin is concerned."
http://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Economy/Economy/An-Asian-trade-revolution-in-the-making
I don't understand the relevance of that. Japan isn't Myanmar. It has excellent existing domestic electronic payments infrastructure: Fast, cheap or free bank transfers, near-universal POS digital money systems.
Who knows with the Japanese government, but a best guess would be that they are aiming to take over large segments of the developing trade with both Myanmar and Bangladesh:
Quote
The number of Japanese companies operating in Bangladesh nearly tripled to 176 in 2013 from 61 in 2007, according to the official.
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/kyodo-news-international/140320/japan-foreign-minister-visit-bangladesh-myanmar
Bitcoin could be the key to it all, at least according to Yukio Noguchi. He's a a former Ministry of Finance bureaucrat and an adviser to the Graduate School of Finance, Accounting and Law at Waseda University. He probably knows of what he speaks.
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June 08, 2014, 06:00:38 PM
 #23

Nothing beneficial will come out of this. It's just better for everyone to take the loss.
For over half a billion dollars? No way. The people who lost money in Mt. Gox need to get organized, and they need to be active in the Tokyo courts.

The trouble is that the people trying to organize them have either been ineffective ("mtgoxrecovery.com" and the solicitor in the UK) or involved with the people behind Mt. Gox (Sunlot).
DrApricot
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June 08, 2014, 07:04:46 PM
 #24

Nothing beneficial will come out of this. It's just better for everyone to take the loss.
For over half a billion dollars? No way. The people who lost money in Mt. Gox need to get organized, and they need to be active in the Tokyo courts.

The trouble is that the people trying to organize them have either been ineffective ("mtgoxrecovery.com" and the solicitor in the UK) or involved with the people behind Mt. Gox (Sunlot).
I have previously written about the Mt. Gox implosion having been a coordinated asset-stripping scheme. This probably included a strategy for preempting any effective legal approach to recouping the "disappeared" funds. All forms of litigation have likely been anticipated.

One aspect, apparently completely overlooked in their planning by the schemers, was that Mt. Gox has become a PR disaster for the Japanese government. It has been trying to promote Japan as an attractive investment destination. It does not help them in the least to have tens of thousands of foreign depositors in Mt. Gox very confused and frustrated by the Tokyo bankruptcy proceedings. One could say the whole affair has not been in Japan's self-interest.

All of the above suggests a political approach could be far more effective than merely intensifying the legal action alone in the Tokyo courts. For example, I would suggest a delegation of active claimants, who have lost deposits in Mt. Gox, try to link up with Mineyuki Fukuda. He is a member of parliament who has taken a keen interest in bitcoin. I believe he is involved with a committee of the ruling Liberal Democratic Party to try and decide what to do about Mt. Gox, and in general, cryptocurrencies. Another key contact to make is Keiichi Hida, who organized the local group ‘Rising Bitcoin Japan‘, having campaigned for months to bring bitcoin out of the shadows and into mainstream attention. and appears to be politically very well connected,

Were some kind of consensus possible among business and government leaders to "save Mt. Gox", Japan could turn around what has been a huge public relations liability into a major asset for the country. In fact, should more of the "disappeared" bitcoins resurface, or turn out to have never been missing in the first place, it might not even cost the government that much to help out Mt. Gox depositors.
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June 09, 2014, 06:07:59 AM
 #25

Nothing beneficial will come out of this. It's just better for everyone to take the loss.
For over half a billion dollars? No way. The people who lost money in Mt. Gox need to get organized, and they need to be active in the Tokyo courts.

The trouble is that the people trying to organize them have either been ineffective ("mtgoxrecovery.com" and the solicitor in the UK) or involved with the people behind Mt. Gox (Sunlot).
I have previously written about the Mt. Gox implosion having been a coordinated asset-stripping scheme. This probably included a strategy for preempting any effective legal approach to recouping the "disappeared" funds. All forms of litigation have likely been anticipated.

One aspect, apparently completely overlooked in their planning by the schemers, was that Mt. Gox has become a PR disaster for the Japanese government. It has been trying to promote Japan as an attractive investment destination. It does not help them in the least to have tens of thousands of foreign depositors in Mt. Gox very confused and frustrated by the Tokyo bankruptcy proceedings. One could say the whole affair has not been in Japan's self-interest.

All of the above suggests a political approach could be far more effective than merely intensifying the legal action alone in the Tokyo courts. For example, I would suggest a delegation of active claimants, who have lost deposits in Mt. Gox, try to link up with Mineyuki Fukuda. He is a member of parliament who has taken a keen interest in bitcoin. I believe he is involved with a committee of the ruling Liberal Democratic Party to try and decide what to do about Mt. Gox, and in general, cryptocurrencies. Another key contact to make is Keiichi Hida, who organized the local group ‘Rising Bitcoin Japan‘, having campaigned for months to bring bitcoin out of the shadows and into mainstream attention. and appears to be politically very well connected,

Were some kind of consensus possible among business and government leaders to "save Mt. Gox", Japan could turn around what has been a huge public relations liability into a major asset for the country. In fact, should more of the "disappeared" bitcoins resurface, or turn out to have never been missing in the first place, it might not even cost the government that much to help out Mt. Gox depositors.

That would require technically and legally savvy people to make such a scheme work. These people couldn't even secure a cold wallet. 

DrApricot
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June 09, 2014, 10:36:50 AM
 #26

Nothing beneficial will come out of this. It's just better for everyone to take the loss.
For over half a billion dollars? No way. The people who lost money in Mt. Gox need to get organized, and they need to be active in the Tokyo courts.

The trouble is that the people trying to organize them have either been ineffective ("mtgoxrecovery.com" and the solicitor in the UK) or involved with the people behind Mt. Gox (Sunlot).
I have previously written about the Mt. Gox implosion having been a coordinated asset-stripping scheme. This probably included a strategy for preempting any effective legal approach to recouping the "disappeared" funds. All forms of litigation have likely been anticipated.

That would require technically and legally savvy people to make such a scheme work. These people couldn't even secure a cold wallet.  
You certainly raise a very valid point. To succeed in the way it did, asset-stripping Mt. Gox would need to have many moving parts, and doubtless couldn't have been pulled off by merely one self-important poser, either acting alone, or else along with a couple of co-conspirators.

For starters, it would necessarily involve combined legal, financial, and regulatory strategies along with a plan to hack Mt. Gox using DDoS and transaction malleability attacks.
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June 09, 2014, 05:53:08 PM
 #27

That would require technically and legally savvy people to make such a scheme work. These people couldn't even secure a cold wallet. 
True. The whole Mt. Gox thing looks like a combination of ineptitude and crookedness, not some grand plan. Mt. Gox had a good moneymaker, and Karpeles blew it through a number of dumb moves, then tried to cheat out of the mess. (That's not unusual in business history. Enron, for example.) The Sunlot crowd just looks like opportunists. The recovery effort is getting nowhere because nobody competent is pushing forward in the courts in Japan.

Courts in common-law countries are purely reactive - they do nothing unless someone brings a case to them. You have to do all the work to move the case forward.
DrApricot
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June 09, 2014, 06:47:13 PM
 #28

That would require technically and legally savvy people to make such a scheme work. These people couldn't even secure a cold wallet.  
True. The whole Mt. Gox thing looks like a combination of ineptitude and crookedness, not some grand plan. Mt. Gox had a good moneymaker, and Karpeles blew it through a number of dumb moves, then tried to cheat out of the mess. (That's not unusual in business history. Enron, for example.) The Sunlot crowd just looks like opportunists. The recovery effort is getting nowhere because nobody competent is pushing forward in the courts in Japan.

Courts in common-law countries are purely reactive - they do nothing unless someone brings a case to them. You have to do all the work to move the case forward.
I don't have any basis to disagree with a thing you've said, yet I can give you a great many reasons why someone could have helped MK blow up Mt. Gox.

Think about how a magic trick works--your attention is momentarily distracted, and you focus in on the magician's hand waving, while unnoticed, he drops a bunny out of his other sleeve.

Everyone always concentrates on the 650,000 bitcoins that are supposedly missing, while almost nobody ever questions the $27,000,000 in bank deposits that have also disappeared. The 650,000 BTC either never existed in the first place, and were figments of Willy and Markus' machinations, or else are, for all practical matters, completely untraceable.

What do you want to bet someone at Mizuho Bank knows exactly where that $27 million went? I'm not saying they necessarily took it, but banks are in the business of knowing what happens to money--they'll know who has it, or where it went.

In any event, it's not like banks have never been known before to engage in asset stripping. They should at least be questioned. I refer you to the CCI investigation of Mizuho's European correspondent banks: http://www.mtgoxinvestigation.com/

The money trail should lead right to the guilty parties.
freedombit
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June 10, 2014, 06:34:48 AM
 #29

Nothing beneficial will come out of this. It's just better for everyone to take the loss.
For over half a billion dollars? No way. The people who lost money in Mt. Gox need to get organized, and they need to be active in the Tokyo courts.

The trouble is that the people trying to organize them have either been ineffective ("mtgoxrecovery.com" and the solicitor in the UK) or involved with the people behind Mt. Gox (Sunlot).


I'll organize. I need volunteers:

1) One person to build a website like mtgoxrecovery.com, but with more interaction to help those interested organize

2) One or more attorneys in Japan - corporate bankruptcy attorney - someone that knows what is going to happen to all of these assets of MtGox. For those of you that do not know, it is likely that all Bitcoin will be auctioned off, and converted to YEN. If you think the Bitcoin will be sold at current market rates, you need to spend more time at silent auctions for your local charities. Odds are this Bitcoin will sell for less than market rate.

3) Every MtGox depositor/creditor worldwide will be needed to make some NOISE: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=628191.0

If it is possible to revitalize MtGox, we can do it and create a market for lost coins: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=590160.0

Follow the FIAT, Follow the Bitcoin.

PM Me.


DrApricot
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June 10, 2014, 09:25:23 AM
 #30

Nothing beneficial will come out of this. It's just better for everyone to take the loss.
For over half a billion dollars? No way. The people who lost money in Mt. Gox need to get organized, and they need to be active in the Tokyo courts.

The trouble is that the people trying to organize them have either been ineffective ("mtgoxrecovery.com" and the solicitor in the UK) or involved with the people behind Mt. Gox (Sunlot).


I'll organize. I need volunteers:
3) Every MtGox depositor/creditor worldwide will be needed to make some NOISE: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=628191.0
Great ideas, freedombit!

Similar to the miller's daughter in Rumpelstiltskin, you can probably best succeed with your organizing plan by "spinning straw into gold". Rather than merely setting up a new exchange, develop a mobile bitcoin ap too for conducting micropayments. It should be one that works well in developing countries such as Myanmar and Bangladesh. Also, please do not forget to make a few important friends in Japan who can make things happen for your committee. They will be impressed if you offer them something that appeals to them.
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June 10, 2014, 07:31:34 PM
 #31

Nothing beneficial will come out of this. It's just better for everyone to take the loss.
For over half a billion dollars? No way. The people who lost money in Mt. Gox need to get organized, and they need to be active in the Tokyo courts.

The trouble is that the people trying to organize them have either been ineffective ("mtgoxrecovery.com" and the solicitor in the UK) or involved with the people behind Mt. Gox (Sunlot).


I'll organize. I need volunteers:
3) Every MtGox depositor/creditor worldwide will be needed to make some NOISE: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=628191.0
Great ideas, freedombit!

Similar to the miller's daughter in Rumpelstiltskin, you can probably best succeed with your organizing plan by "spinning straw into gold". Rather than merely setting up a new exchange, develop a mobile bitcoin ap too for conducting micropayments. It should be one that works well in developing countries such as Myanmar and Bangladesh. Also, please do not forget to make a few important friends in Japan who can make things happen for your committee. They will be impressed if you offer them something that appeals to them.

Isn't there a huge app market out there?  I think Apple agreed they would allow Bitcoin apps now.  Make an exchange that allows for buying/selling/wallet access from your app. That would be HUGE.
freedombit
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June 11, 2014, 06:27:34 AM
 #32

Nothing beneficial will come out of this. It's just better for everyone to take the loss.
For over half a billion dollars? No way. The people who lost money in Mt. Gox need to get organized, and they need to be active in the Tokyo courts.

The trouble is that the people trying to organize them have either been ineffective ("mtgoxrecovery.com" and the solicitor in the UK) or involved with the people behind Mt. Gox (Sunlot).


I'll organize. I need volunteers:
3) Every MtGox depositor/creditor worldwide will be needed to make some NOISE: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=628191.0
Great ideas, freedombit!

Similar to the miller's daughter in Rumpelstiltskin, you can probably best succeed with your organizing plan by "spinning straw into gold". Rather than merely setting up a new exchange, develop a mobile bitcoin ap too for conducting micropayments. It should be one that works well in developing countries such as Myanmar and Bangladesh. Also, please do not forget to make a few important friends in Japan who can make things happen for your committee. They will be impressed if you offer them something that appeals to them.

Yes. Large volume and high velocity equals lower risk due to market fluctuation for a payment processor. Surely Mark K. was working on this, but too distracted trying to hold the basic business together to take MtGox to next level. There are certainly areas where Bitcoin and a large international and liquid exchange like this could leapfrog current business infrastructure and create value propositions that will quickly require adoption for survival.
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June 11, 2014, 08:20:18 AM
 #33

. They will be impressed if you offer them something that appeals to them.
Yes. Large volume and high velocity equals lower risk due to market fluctuation for a payment processor. Surely Mark K. was working on this, but too distracted trying to hold the basic business together to take MtGox to next level. There are certainly areas where Bitcoin and a large international and liquid exchange like this could leapfrog current business infrastructure and create value propositions that will quickly require adoption for survival.
The quality of smart phones that people are using in developing countries is not as good as in the developed world. Any mobile ap would need to address the lowest common denominator in terms of cell phone technology to get the broadest possible coverage. Mt. Gox depositors could provide an ideal test-bed for testing out as many different versions of this mobile bitcoin ap as possible--one that will run on older smart and not-so-smart phones as well as the newer ones.

Since the Japanese government would want to develop and promote this technology as part of its "Asian trade revolution" strategy, this is something depositors can agree to do in exchange for the Ministry of Finance taking an oversight role with respect to the Mt. Gox bankruptcy proceedings in Tokyo. It could help to ensure that the matter is handled without undue delay and to alleviate any concerns about possible fraud.
edmundedgar
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June 11, 2014, 08:40:45 AM
 #34

the Ministry of Finance taking an oversight role

the matter is handled without undue delay

These two things are not consistent.
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June 11, 2014, 09:06:21 AM
 #35

the Ministry of Finance taking an oversight role

the matter is handled without undue delay

These two things are not consistent.

If government is involved in any capacity there will always be "undue delay."

edmundedgar
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June 11, 2014, 09:18:57 AM
 #36

the Ministry of Finance taking an oversight role

the matter is handled without undue delay

These two things are not consistent.

If government is involved in any capacity there will always be "undue delay."

And this isn't just any government, it's the Japanese government.
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June 11, 2014, 10:06:19 AM
 #37

Sad to see that exchange that initialy raised bitcoin in price and popularity is the same that did us alot of dmg by their incompetence
they had alot of profits during the days, it is their fault not to hire experts to do what they couldnt.

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June 11, 2014, 04:51:49 PM
 #38

Sad to see that exchange that initialy raised bitcoin in price and popularity is the same that did us alot of dmg by their incompetence
they had alot of profits during the days, it is their fault not to hire experts to do what they couldnt.
Everyone agrees - biggest mess ever. The question is, how do we ordinary people--some with expert skills ourselves--help clean it up.

Mt. Gox depositors can either take an entirely passive role, merely letting the bankruptcy court handle it all, and await the outcome at some future date--good or bad, or else attempt to influence the situation in a more proactive way.

Anyone who has been through a court proceeding knows that it helps to have a "friend in court". While the Japanese government is probably less than ideal, as most governments have never been known for playing "nice" with bitcoin, their oversight of the Tokyo bankruptcy could turn out to be key in getting a fair shake. At least it would give the community a little bit of leverage in the situation, instead on its present course, wherein it seems to have almost none.
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June 12, 2014, 06:32:56 PM
 #39

Mt. Gox depositors could provide an ideal test-bed for testing out as many different versions of this mobile bitcoin ap as possible--one that will run on older smart and not-so-smart phones as well as the newer ones.
In Japan, most of the mobile phone service providers, such as DoCoMo, are also payment processors, registered under the Payment Services Act. Mobile payments work just fine in Japan. No need for Bitcoin.
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June 13, 2014, 01:27:32 AM
 #40

I don't think it is a good idea to file additional court cases against GOX.

They already have less assets then liabilities so account holders will receive less then what they deserve.

A court case is only going to force GOX to spend more money on their lawyers, money that they could have given to account holders.

There is always one winner in class action cases and it is always the same - the lawyers.
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