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Author Topic: Map Makers Admit Mistake in Showing Ice Cap Loss in Greenland  (Read 18322 times)
bb113
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March 08, 2012, 05:44:39 AM
 #381

Hmmmmmmmm, I'm not convinced.

I don't understand why the concept of protoconsciousness needs to be introduced.

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All matter at the quantum level is thought to be proto-conscious; the brain is but where the potentialities of protoconsciousness might become a full-fledged consciousness

I would say: All matter at the lowest possible level of complexity (quantum, perhaps) interacts with it's environment, the rules by which matter interacts lead to the formation of structures* of increasing complexity. These structures have at least one more degree of freedom in how they can respond the external environment than the sum of the individual degrees of freedom. I would term this "emergence". The brain happens to have a very large set of possible responses packed into a small space, which gives rise to the possibility of human-type consciousness. From our discussions I have come to think of consciousness as a function of degrees of freedom/volume, maybe information density is a better term.


*As a very loose definition: by structure I mean collections of  matter that receive more information about (are more influenced by) within-structure matter than external.
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bb113
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March 08, 2012, 05:49:56 AM
 #382

Just found this:
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The holographic principle was inspired by black hole thermodynamics, which implies that the maximal entropy in any region scales with the radius squared, and not cubed as might be expected. In the case of a black hole, the insight was that the informational content of all the objects which have fallen into the hole can be entirely contained in surface fluctuations of the event horizon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle
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March 08, 2012, 05:50:12 AM
 #383

Hmmmmmmmm, I'm not convinced.

I don't understand why the concept of protoconsciousness needs to be introduced.

Quote
All matter at the quantum level is thought to be proto-conscious; the brain is but where the potentialities of protoconsciousness might become a full-fledged consciousness

I would say: All matter at the lowest possible level of complexity (quantum, perhaps) interacts with it's environment, the rules by which matter interacts lead to the formation of structures* of increasing complexity. These structures have at least one more degree of freedom in how they can respond the external environment than the sum of the individual degrees of freedom. I would term this "emergence". The brain happens to have a very large set of possible responses packed into a small space, which gives rise to the possibility of human-type consciousness. From our discussions I have come to think of consciousness as a function of degrees of freedom/volume, maybe information density is a better term.


*As a very loose definition: by structure I mean collections of  matter that receive more information about (are more influenced by) within-structure matter than external.

Back to emergence after all. Ok.

Degrees of freedom mean nothing with regard to qualia, in my opinion. So do tell me, what is the magic that happens with an extra degree of freedom where there wasn't that extra degree of freedom before? You might as well say that miniature Charlie Chaplins are the extra sauce needed inside the brain for there to be qualia.
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March 08, 2012, 05:54:10 AM
 #384

The magic is multiplication?

Also I never dismissed "emergence", just that consciousness cannot be said to emerge at a certain point, unless you stratify consciousness.
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March 08, 2012, 05:58:04 AM
 #385

The magic is multiplication?

Clarify. As in:

1. Amplification
2. The H20 Phenomenon.

Which?
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March 08, 2012, 06:04:03 AM
 #386

I have no idea what the H2O phenomenon is. Google didn't yield an answer right away. What is it? It sounds like a band.
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March 08, 2012, 06:09:13 AM
 #387

I have no idea what the H2O phenomenon is. Google didn't yield an answer right away. What is it? It sounds like a band.
Try adding the term consciousness to your Google search. It's a standard concept discussed with regard to consciousness.
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March 08, 2012, 06:10:52 AM
 #388

I have no idea what the H2O phenomenon is. Google didn't yield an answer right away. What is it? It sounds like a band.
Try adding the term consciousness to your Google search. It's a standard concept discussed with regard to consciousness.

Ha, I added multiplication instead... one minute
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March 08, 2012, 06:21:15 AM
 #389

The magic is multiplication?

Clarify. As in:

1. Amplification
2. The H20 Phenomenon.

Which?

I think both, or, more fundamentally, amplification. Amplification of the degrees of freedom gives rise to phenomenon such as collections of H2O molecules transparent to certain wavelengths of light. The "amplifier" is Huh
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March 08, 2012, 06:30:22 AM
 #390

The magic is multiplication?

Clarify. As in:

1. Amplification
2. The H20 Phenomenon.

Which?

I think both, or, more fundamentally, amplification. Amplification of the degrees of freedom gives rise to phenomenon such as collections of H2O molecules transparent to certain wavelengths of light. The "amplifier" is Huh

Huh

I'm not sure whether you read the H20 articles on wetness, as opposed to quantum effects. H20 as it pertains to consciousness is the fact that it is unintuitive that it would be wet - i.e. the wetness is an emergent property. Or something like that. The point is, it's different than just amplification.

All that aside, I can only see the prerequisites for qualia as being a fundamental property of the Universe. In other words, I don't buy emergence, except in the sense that particular structures, such as the brain, amplify and harness it in feedback loops and so on.
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March 08, 2012, 07:01:47 AM
 #391

Why do you think the possibility of emergence is not the prerequisite for qualia?
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March 08, 2012, 07:13:25 AM
 #392

Just found this:
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The holographic principle was inspired by black hole thermodynamics, which implies that the maximal entropy in any region scales with the radius squared, and not cubed as might be expected. In the case of a black hole, the insight was that the informational content of all the objects which have fallen into the hole can be entirely contained in surface fluctuations of the event horizon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle

Let's change gears:

Perhaps consciousness could be interpreted as the opposite of an event horizon. What do you think?
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March 08, 2012, 07:13:32 AM
 #393

Why do you think the possibility of emergence is not the prerequisite for qualia?

Because by invoking emergence, you have explained nothing, and made things more complex. That's an indication that you might be on the wrong track.
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March 08, 2012, 07:14:17 AM
 #394

Just found this:
Quote
The holographic principle was inspired by black hole thermodynamics, which implies that the maximal entropy in any region scales with the radius squared, and not cubed as might be expected. In the case of a black hole, the insight was that the informational content of all the objects which have fallen into the hole can be entirely contained in surface fluctuations of the event horizon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle

Let's change gears:

Perhaps consciousness could be interpreted as the opposite of an event horizon. What do you think?

I will think about what you mean by that and get back to you later. I'm done for the day. Oh, and paramecium have no neurons - they are single celled organisms that can learn and have some semblance of memory.
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March 08, 2012, 07:31:31 AM
 #395

Thank you FirstAscent for your service.

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bb113
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March 08, 2012, 07:33:42 AM
 #396

Just found this:
Quote
The holographic principle was inspired by black hole thermodynamics, which implies that the maximal entropy in any region scales with the radius squared, and not cubed as might be expected. In the case of a black hole, the insight was that the informational content of all the objects which have fallen into the hole can be entirely contained in surface fluctuations of the event horizon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle

Let's change gears:

Perhaps consciousness could be interpreted as the opposite of an event horizon. What do you think?

I will think about what you mean by that and get back to you later. I'm done for the day. Oh, and paramecium have no neurons - they are single celled organisms that can learn and have some semblance of memory.

Let me rephrase that to just be: Let us explore how consciousness and event horizons may be related. And I know paramecium have no neurons. Plastic has some semblance of memory, as for learning, I would say no.
FirstAscent
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March 08, 2012, 04:54:55 PM
 #397

Thank you FirstAscent for your service.

Thank you. I assume that you're thanking me for pointing out and explaining that essentially all arguments against global warming can be shown to be deceptive and lacking in sound science and funded by Big Oil, and strangely, instigated by the same individuals who also argued against regulations of the tobacco industry. The implication, of course, is that if there were actually sound science against global warming, it would exist, instead of all the deceptive propaganda out there masquerading as science.

The conclusion: global warming is real, mankind contributes to it, and the science behind it is sound.
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March 08, 2012, 06:09:17 PM
 #398

Thank you FirstAscent for your service.

Thank you. I assume that you're thanking me for pointing out and explaining that essentially all arguments against global warming can be shown to be deceptive and lacking in sound science and funded by Big Oil, and strangely, instigated by the same individuals who also argued against regulations of the tobacco industry. The implication, of course, is that if there were actually sound science against global warming, it would exist, instead of all the deceptive propaganda out there masquerading as science.

The conclusion: global warming is real, mankind contributes to it, and the science behind it is sound.
.

This is why you spent 20 pages arguing with a strawman
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March 08, 2012, 11:03:13 PM
 #399

This is why you spent 20 pages arguing with a strawman

Don't confuse illustration, education and explanation with whatever you would like to believe it is.
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March 09, 2012, 05:31:14 AM
 #400

Let me rephrase that to just be: Let us explore how consciousness and event horizons may be related.

I don't know where to take this.

Quote
And I know paramecium have no neurons. Plastic has some semblance of memory, as for learning, I would say no.

Paramecium have memory. Plastic has memory. Tall buildings have stories. Novelists have stories.

However, I will admit I am not an expert on paramecium. Are you? Feel free to find scholarly papers on the study of learning among paramecium. I might engage in similar activity.
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