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February 05, 2012, 04:14:36 PM
 #21

That will never pass (especially in a socialistic country I live in).

I stated what I would like to see happen, not what I am going to make happen. In reality I will do nothing and pay my taxes as a good law abiding citizen. I just do not agree with the law that I do follow.

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."

or as a paraphrased ideal of that...

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. "

Edmund Burke 1770

People who try to stop the state managing heath care costs are the bad guys.  Some things are best done collectively.

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February 05, 2012, 04:54:07 PM
 #22

That will never pass (especially in a socialistic country I live in).

I stated what I would like to see happen, not what I am going to make happen. In reality I will do nothing and pay my taxes as a good law abiding citizen. I just do not agree with the law that I do follow.

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."

or as a paraphrased ideal of that...

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. "

Edmund Burke 1770

People who try to stop the state managing heath care costs are the bad guys.  Some things are best done collectively.

the only reason the state seems to need to control health care costs is becasue of the state of the manufacturing, industry, economy, and unemployment they intentionally killed TO SPECIFICALLY ALLOW THOSE CONTROL MECHANISMS TO COME IN.

If anything, the prices for everything should be decreasing as technology advances manufacturing, communications, industry, and services. The ones you defend are killing you and you dont even realize it.

I will admit we need to take care of the people in need... for now, but we must turn around this control structure and take control of our government and economy, and start farming and manufacturing again. Kill the trade treaties we ratified allowing corporations to import everything made by people earning a bowl of rice and a poke in the eye instead of sane wages, put high tarrifs on imports, high taxes on corporations, then lower them as they create jobs. Another answer is banking reform. In addition to the robber barons going overseas and unfettered importation, the money trusts and money changers (central banking system) are screwing us as well, and is a prime cause of our indebtedness.

People making a good living, living responsibly, and saving can take care of their own medical needs.

"... He is no fool who parts with that which he cannot keep, when he is sure to be recompensed with that which he cannot lose ..."

"... history disseminated to the masses is written by those who win battles and wars and murder their heroes ..."


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February 05, 2012, 05:15:01 PM
 #23

Everyone pays taxes.

Everyone gets sick and all level of society get much the same illnesses.

Paying for healthcare through the tax system stops price gouging of the sick, it stops money being wasted on marketing and it stops insurance companies dumping hard cases through rescission.

If you look at the numbers, systems like the NHS in the UK are cheap to run yet offer better results.  

I can't see why anyone would want to pay more and get worse results, so I assume that people who advocate against state provision have either a vested interested in high drug prices or are freeloaders who will present themselves for treatment when their luck runs out.

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February 05, 2012, 05:47:43 PM
 #24

Everyone pays taxes.

Everyone gets sick and all level of society get much the same illnesses.

Paying for healthcare through the tax system stops price gouging of the sick, it stops money being wasted on marketing and it stops insurance companies dumping hard cases through rescission.

If you look at the numbers, systems like the NHS in the UK are cheap to run yet offer better results.  

I can't see why anyone would want to pay more and get worse results, so I assume that people who advocate against state provision have either a vested interested in high drug prices or are freeloaders who will present themselves for treatment when their luck runs out.

...or they simply demand their freedom and rights, no threats of force or prinson at the point of a gun for simply breathing, are ready, willing, and able to take care of themselves and their families, teach their families the importance of self reliance, hard work, and saving and preparation, unwilling to bow to anyone who makes the presumption of authority over them, and refuses to reliquish said because a couple fellow human beings decided to steal from them to help somone else, then called it some arbitrary thing like a "law", to benefit others who think this world owes them a free ride because they parents decided to have sex and not teach the product thereof the important things in life.

"... He is no fool who parts with that which he cannot keep, when he is sure to be recompensed with that which he cannot lose ..."

"... history disseminated to the masses is written by those who win battles and wars and murder their heroes ..."


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February 05, 2012, 06:18:30 PM
 #25

Everyone pays taxes.

Everyone gets sick and all level of society get much the same illnesses.

Paying for healthcare through the tax system stops price gouging of the sick, it stops money being wasted on marketing and it stops insurance companies dumping hard cases through rescission.

If you look at the numbers, systems like the NHS in the UK are cheap to run yet offer better results.  

I can't see why anyone would want to pay more and get worse results, so I assume that people who advocate against state provision have either a vested interested in high drug prices or are freeloaders who will present themselves for treatment when their luck runs out.

...or they simply demand their freedom and rights, no threats of force or prinson at the point of a gun for simply breathing, are ready, willing, and able to take care of themselves and their families, teach their families the importance of self reliance, hard work, and saving and preparation, unwilling to bow to anyone who makes the presumption of authority over them, and refuses to reliquish said because a couple fellow human beings decided to steal from them to help somone else, then called it some arbitrary thing like a "law", to benefit others who think this world owes them a free ride because they parents decided to have sex and not teach the product thereof the important things in life.

That's just verbiage.  The fact is that everyone gets sick, it has to be paid for and taxation is the most efficient way to pay for it.  "Liberty" does not mean refusing to pay your share and then showing up at the hospital with a sick baby asking for health care.  That's freeloading.

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February 05, 2012, 07:19:51 PM
 #26

Everyone pays taxes.

Everyone gets sick and all level of society get much the same illnesses.

Paying for healthcare through the tax system stops price gouging of the sick, it stops money being wasted on marketing and it stops insurance companies dumping hard cases through rescission.

If you look at the numbers, systems like the NHS in the UK are cheap to run yet offer better results.  

I can't see why anyone would want to pay more and get worse results, so I assume that people who advocate against state provision have either a vested interested in high drug prices or are freeloaders who will present themselves for treatment when their luck runs out.

...or they simply demand their freedom and rights, no threats of force or prinson at the point of a gun for simply breathing, are ready, willing, and able to take care of themselves and their families, teach their families the importance of self reliance, hard work, and saving and preparation, unwilling to bow to anyone who makes the presumption of authority over them, and refuses to reliquish said because a couple fellow human beings decided to steal from them to help somone else, then called it some arbitrary thing like a "law", to benefit others who think this world owes them a free ride because they parents decided to have sex and not teach the product thereof the important things in life.

That's just verbiage.  The fact is that everyone gets sick, it has to be paid for and taxation is the most efficient way to pay for it.  "Liberty" does not mean refusing to pay your share and then showing up at the hospital with a sick baby asking for health care.  That's freeloading.

My share is already paid for privately, by me and my family.

Your share, wanting to steal my money, is not my share. You just want to rename or rebrand it as "my share" to make you feel better about basic robbery/theft.

The one freeloading is you or anyone else asking for free health care, expecting anyone other than themselves to pay for it.

My share does not include you or anyone else unless I voluntarily donate it of my own free will.

Sure you can take it by force, but that just makes it simple theft/robbery that's been legalised.

It would be a different story if I chose to use those services I am paying for as in community infrastructure we pay for - electric, water, sewage, roads, by engaging in contracts to use those services I pay the bills monthly for, but also paying more than my share by funding those using them for free.

"... He is no fool who parts with that which he cannot keep, when he is sure to be recompensed with that which he cannot lose ..."

"... history disseminated to the masses is written by those who win battles and wars and murder their heroes ..."


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February 05, 2012, 07:28:45 PM
 #27

Everyone here advocating state controlled health care obviously doesn't pay 55% income tax. THAT is the price I would really rather avid paying.

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February 05, 2012, 08:00:14 PM
 #28

That will never pass (especially in a socialistic country I live in).

I stated what I would like to see happen, not what I am going to make happen. In reality I will do nothing and pay my taxes as a good law abiding citizen. I just do not agree with the law that I do follow.

Yet the only thing that truly matters is reality, not the ideal world in your mind. 

This isn't entirely true.

Ignoring reality as if it isn't real is clearly bad, but our perceptions of how things ought to be is how the world changes, whether small ("Maybe I shouldn't drop this litter here, even if everyone else is going to") or large ("Hey, wouldn't it be cool if a *machine* could copy books?") Spread your ideal to others, and the changes become significant.

Given enough time, societal acceptance, and enthusiasm, our perceptions and imaginations become reality (within physical limits, of course.)

That said, I agree with you--I think the idea of modern Western societies shunning taxes and government control is an ideal that's not going to be embraced anytime soon. Not that it means we should cheerfully accept and advocate for such things....

Bitcoin is the ultimate freedom test. It tells you who is giving lip service and who genuinely believes in it.
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In the future, books that summarize the history of money will have a line that says, “and then came bitcoin.” It is the economic singularity. And we are living in it now. - Ryan Dickherber
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ATTENTION BFL MINING NEWBS: Just got your Jalapenos in? Wondering how to get the most value for the least hassle? Give BitMinter a try! It's a smaller pool with a fair & low-fee payment method, lots of statistical feedback, and it's easier than EasyMiner! (Yes, we want your hashing power, but seriously, it IS the easiest pool to use! Sign up in seconds to try it!)
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The idea that deflation causes hoarding (to any problematic degree) is a lie used to justify theft of value from your savings.
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February 05, 2012, 08:10:26 PM
 #29

What I love about the Politics forum (and, indeed, any politics subforum in general) is that people rage at things like this, but nobody ever proposes a politically feasible solution.

Opt out. If you truly don't believe in the system you are a part of, stop paying for it.

+1

And note that this opting out doesn't have to be a total thing, or all at once, or even illegal.

Find your greatest point of disagreement with the system, and figure out a way to reduce or eliminate your monetary and/or social contributions to it, in proportion to your priorities; the legality of the chosen method is up to you.

In due time, continue for each next-greater point of disagreement until you reach a balance between your conscience, your safety, your desired standard of living, etc.

Simply doing this would be enough for most people.

Bitcoin is the ultimate freedom test. It tells you who is giving lip service and who genuinely believes in it.
...
...
In the future, books that summarize the history of money will have a line that says, “and then came bitcoin.” It is the economic singularity. And we are living in it now. - Ryan Dickherber
...
...
ATTENTION BFL MINING NEWBS: Just got your Jalapenos in? Wondering how to get the most value for the least hassle? Give BitMinter a try! It's a smaller pool with a fair & low-fee payment method, lots of statistical feedback, and it's easier than EasyMiner! (Yes, we want your hashing power, but seriously, it IS the easiest pool to use! Sign up in seconds to try it!)
...
...
The idea that deflation causes hoarding (to any problematic degree) is a lie used to justify theft of value from your savings.
Hawker
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February 05, 2012, 08:57:13 PM
 #30

What I love about the Politics forum (and, indeed, any politics subforum in general) is that people rage at things like this, but nobody ever proposes a politically feasible solution.

Opt out. If you truly don't believe in the system you are a part of, stop paying for it.

+1

And note that this opting out doesn't have to be a total thing, or all at once, or even illegal.

Find your greatest point of disagreement with the system, and figure out a way to reduce or eliminate your monetary and/or social contributions to it, in proportion to your priorities; the legality of the chosen method is up to you.

In due time, continue for each next-greater point of disagreement until you reach a balance between your conscience, your safety, your desired standard of living, etc.

Simply doing this would be enough for most people.


"Opt out" is a 1 way street.  You can stand outside the hospital with a placard saying you opt out.  But if your woman is inside with your sick baby, the taxpayer doesn't opt out.  So all that has happened is that you have freeloaded.

How can that be a good thing?

Hawker
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February 05, 2012, 09:05:13 PM
 #31

What I love about the Politics forum (and, indeed, any politics subforum in general) is that people rage at things like this, but nobody ever proposes a politically feasible solution.

Opt out. If you truly don't believe in the system you are a part of, stop paying for it.

+1

And note that this opting out doesn't have to be a total thing, or all at once, or even illegal.

Find your greatest point of disagreement with the system, and figure out a way to reduce or eliminate your monetary and/or social contributions to it, in proportion to your priorities; the legality of the chosen method is up to you.

In due time, continue for each next-greater point of disagreement until you reach a balance between your conscience, your safety, your desired standard of living, etc.

Simply doing this would be enough for most people.


"Opt out" is a 1 way street.  You can stand outside the hospital with a placard saying you opt out.  But if your woman is inside with your sick baby, the taxpayer doesn't opt out.  So all that has happened is that you have freeloaded.

How can that be a good thing?

Who said anything about freeloading? If you get a woman pregnant, I would hope you and her have the ability to pay for medical care and raise the child, otherwise you are simply irresponsible.

To opt out is to vote with something more powerful than your voice.

The point is, if your child is sick, the state still picks up the tab.  You can choose to pay privately if you want but if you can't the state does not have the option to "opt out" nor would you want it to.

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February 05, 2012, 09:09:42 PM
 #32

The point is, if your child is sick, the state still picks up the tab.  You can choose to pay privately if you want but if you can't the state does not have the option to "opt out" nor would you want it to.

Umm, if my child is sick I pick up the tab. Yes, I would prefer the state not pay for medical care. We have families, friends, organizations, churches, etc. for times of desperate need.

You say that now.  But if your child's life were on the line, you would not sit at home saying "let her die" if the hospital up the road could save her, would you ? 

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February 05, 2012, 09:16:20 PM
 #33

The point is, if your child is sick, the state still picks up the tab.  You can choose to pay privately if you want but if you can't the state does not have the option to "opt out" nor would you want it to.

Umm, if my child is sick I pick up the tab. Yes, I would prefer the state not pay for medical care. We have families, friends, organizations, churches, etc. for times of desperate need.

You say that now.  But if your child's life were on the line, you would not sit at home saying "let her die" if the hospital up the road could save her, would you ? 

I told you what I would do, I would reach out to my non-immediate circle of support. The generousness of human beings is overwhelming. I would never force anyone to treat her.

That is still freeloading.  Just not a very reliable way of going about it.

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February 05, 2012, 09:24:23 PM
 #34

The point is, if your child is sick, the state still picks up the tab.  You can choose to pay privately if you want but if you can't the state does not have the option to "opt out" nor would you want it to.

Umm, if my child is sick I pick up the tab. Yes, I would prefer the state not pay for medical care. We have families, friends, organizations, churches, etc. for times of desperate need.

You say that now.  But if your child's life were on the line, you would not sit at home saying "let her die" if the hospital up the road could save her, would you ? 

I told you what I would do, I would reach out to my non-immediate circle of support. The generousness of human beings is overwhelming. I would never force anyone to treat her.

That is still freeloading.  Just not a very reliable way of going about it.

Which is why I wouldn't have children without being prepared for the responsibility. And there is nothing wrong with accepting voluntary assistance. It's only when people are forced to pay for it that it becomes a problem.

That's nonsense and you know it.  A taxpayer funded system costs less to run so its actually easier for people to be prepared for the responsibility.  The alternative is a more expensive system where the irresponsible and the unfortunate get free care but everyone else gets hammered like in the US.

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February 05, 2012, 09:25:54 PM
 #35

What I love about the Politics forum (and, indeed, any politics subforum in general) is that people rage at things like this, but nobody ever proposes a politically feasible solution.

Opt out. If you truly don't believe in the system you are a part of, stop paying for it.

+1

And note that this opting out doesn't have to be a total thing, or all at once, or even illegal.

Find your greatest point of disagreement with the system, and figure out a way to reduce or eliminate your monetary and/or social contributions to it, in proportion to your priorities; the legality of the chosen method is up to you.

In due time, continue for each next-greater point of disagreement until you reach a balance between your conscience, your safety, your desired standard of living, etc.

Simply doing this would be enough for most people.


"Opt out" is a 1 way street.  You can stand outside the hospital with a placard saying you opt out.  But if your woman is inside with your sick baby, the taxpayer doesn't opt out.  So all that has happened is that you have freeloaded.

How can that be a good thing?

Who said anything about freeloading? If you get a woman pregnant, I would hope you and her have the ability to pay for medical care and raise the child, otherwise you are simply irresponsible.

To opt out is to vote with something more powerful than your voice.

The point is, if your child is sick, the state still picks up the tab.  You can choose to pay privately if you want but if you can't the state does not have the option to "opt out" nor would you want it to.

I would absolutely want and expect the state to opt out. In many cases, it opts out of providing services it is "supposed to" anyway, while still forcing folks to pay.

There is nothing the state does that cannot be done more efficiently and more morally by NOT initiating force against innocents.

Bitcoin is the ultimate freedom test. It tells you who is giving lip service and who genuinely believes in it.
...
...
In the future, books that summarize the history of money will have a line that says, “and then came bitcoin.” It is the economic singularity. And we are living in it now. - Ryan Dickherber
...
...
ATTENTION BFL MINING NEWBS: Just got your Jalapenos in? Wondering how to get the most value for the least hassle? Give BitMinter a try! It's a smaller pool with a fair & low-fee payment method, lots of statistical feedback, and it's easier than EasyMiner! (Yes, we want your hashing power, but seriously, it IS the easiest pool to use! Sign up in seconds to try it!)
...
...
The idea that deflation causes hoarding (to any problematic degree) is a lie used to justify theft of value from your savings.
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February 05, 2012, 09:30:57 PM
 #36

...snip...

I would absolutely want and expect the state to opt out. In many cases, it opts out of providing services it is "supposed to" anyway, while still forcing folks to pay.

There is nothing the state does that cannot be done more efficiently and more morally by NOT initiating force against innocents.


Lets stick to facts shall we.  The NHS in the UK provides health care nationally and efficeintly to all.  Its free at the point of delivery.  Its run by the state.  Can you point to a private system that is more efficient?

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February 05, 2012, 10:31:34 PM
 #37

...snip...

I would absolutely want and expect the state to opt out. In many cases, it opts out of providing services it is "supposed to" anyway, while still forcing folks to pay.

There is nothing the state does that cannot be done more efficiently and more morally by NOT initiating force against innocents.


Lets stick to facts shall we.  The NHS in the UK provides health care nationally and efficeintly to all.  Its free at the point of delivery.  Its run by the state.  Can you point to a private system that is more efficient?

Yes. The US system, before the involvement of government in health care, accounting for technological differences between the times. The UK's own system back then would probably work too, but I know less about it.

Thought experiment: take the current UK system. Keep it basically the same. Slash everyone's taxes in proportion to how much goes toward national health care. Charge people for services up to that amount. Let people pay any extra they wish, or keep any unspent portion. Finally, take the money, manpower and time spent propping up the system from the political and bureaucratic angles (including the proper portion spent on tax enforcement) and refund all that as well. Of course, it's a given that charity should be encouraged, and allowed without restriction.

Do you not see any advantages to that adjustment in terms of health services per £, in the short-term also but especially in the long-term?

Bitcoin is the ultimate freedom test. It tells you who is giving lip service and who genuinely believes in it.
...
...
In the future, books that summarize the history of money will have a line that says, “and then came bitcoin.” It is the economic singularity. And we are living in it now. - Ryan Dickherber
...
...
ATTENTION BFL MINING NEWBS: Just got your Jalapenos in? Wondering how to get the most value for the least hassle? Give BitMinter a try! It's a smaller pool with a fair & low-fee payment method, lots of statistical feedback, and it's easier than EasyMiner! (Yes, we want your hashing power, but seriously, it IS the easiest pool to use! Sign up in seconds to try it!)
...
...
The idea that deflation causes hoarding (to any problematic degree) is a lie used to justify theft of value from your savings.
Hawker
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February 05, 2012, 10:41:12 PM
 #38

...snip...

I would absolutely want and expect the state to opt out. In many cases, it opts out of providing services it is "supposed to" anyway, while still forcing folks to pay.

There is nothing the state does that cannot be done more efficiently and more morally by NOT initiating force against innocents.


Lets stick to facts shall we.  The NHS in the UK provides health care nationally and efficeintly to all.  Its free at the point of delivery.  Its run by the state.  Can you point to a private system that is more efficient?

Yes. The US system, before the involvement of government in health care, accounting for technological differences between the times. The UK's own system back then would probably work too, but I know less about it.

Thought experiment: take the current UK system. Keep it basically the same. Slash everyone's taxes in proportion to how much goes toward national health care. Charge people for services up to that amount. Let people pay any extra they wish, or keep any unspent portion. Finally, take the money, manpower and time spent propping up the system from the political and bureaucratic angles (including the proper portion spent on tax enforcement) and refund all that as well. Of course, it's a given that charity should be encouraged, and allowed without restriction.

Do you not see any advantages to that adjustment in terms of health services per £, in the short-term also but especially in the long-term?


The problem is that medicine costs the same in the UK and the US.  It all comes from the same companies.  But delivery of medicine is far more expensive in the US because you have to pay for insurance advertising, drug advertising and because very often Americans are gouged by the system "Pay this stupid bill or you die screaming in pain."

If it helps, thats how it used to work here.  The NHS was introduced because WW2 destroyed the economy and there was not enough money for the marketing side of the health industry.  Given that it works, I can't see how you can make a case for transferring the delivery staff from the state payroll to a company payroll - all you have done is create an entity that will demand a return on capital and this raised your running costs.

The UK has private hospitals and charities - thats sort of a side issue.


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February 05, 2012, 10:41:54 PM
 #39

The NHS in the UK provides health care nationally and efficeintly to all.  Its free at the point of delivery.  Its run by the state.  Can you point to a private system that is more efficient?

Absolutely.

I walk in, get care, and pay my bill. Nothing more efficient than that.

No beaurocracy, no overhead, and no paperwork involved other than my invoice of services rendered.

Being free or public does not make it more efficient than paid or private.

Even if insured, the insurance company gets the bill and I pay nothing at the time of the visit.

Health insurance should not be a right. Health care should not be a right. If people fail to prepare, it may sound harsh, but they need to pay for what they steal. I bust my fucking ass to prepare and save because I am a responsible person. Last thing I need is someone stealing my ability to provide for my family at the point of a gun because they have failed to prepare. Every penny they steal off me lessens my ability to provide for my own responsibilities.

We need work camps for the people who cant take care of themselves, and I have posted about this before, which relates to all forms of welfare, including health care:

If you take from other people, you need to reimburse them for what you are taking. Simple contract. You shouldnt be taking their money through threat of force and prison just because you are lazy or have failed to prepare.

Need housing, food, and clothing ?

No problem. I will give you housing, food, and clothing in exchange for your labor and all your other worldly possessions of value.

Lets put those old military bases, old prisons, and FEMA camps to good use. You and your kids will develop the land and perform construction as needed, work on infrastructure and reclamation projects, prep, cook, clean, do dishes, wash clothing and linens, tend the fields and gardens, tend the livestock, make furniture, make clothing and linens, cut grass, cut wood, sew, etc... in other words you will work and produce for your own existence and to pay back what you are taking from others.

You wont get a car, computer, big/flat screen tv, cell phone, ipad, xbox or any other gaming station, no fancy clothing and shoes and jewelry, or anything else frivolous or otherwise not needed.

If a profit is made from your work, then you may get a little money you can put away as a managed savings to use when you no longer need assistance, minus what you owe of course..

There will be an auditorium for movies and meetings or speeches, maybe a library, community day rooms for your off-work hours where you can socialize, play games, use a computer, and watch tv, and an ourdoor activity area.

Old people unable to care for themselves or produce will get a pass from doing any work they are unable to do, but hey, I know alot of old people who do lots of arts and crafts, accounting, clerical work, and even counting widgets that could be sold for a profit.

Dont like it?

Then go get a job,or start a business, and be responsible for the family you created and take care of your family elders.

If you are going to steal my money through threat of prison and force, you should at least earn it. I know I earned the money you are stealing that pays for your benefits and privilages. I earned that money you are stealing by my labor ... my blood, sweat, and tears... my work ... and every penny you steal takes away from my ability to provide for my own family and responsibilities, but no one ever talks about that. People are losing their jobs, homes, and ability to survive to allow YOU to prosper and survive from doing absolutely nothing but getting your entitlements.

"... He is no fool who parts with that which he cannot keep, when he is sure to be recompensed with that which he cannot lose ..."

"... history disseminated to the masses is written by those who win battles and wars and murder their heroes ..."


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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


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February 05, 2012, 10:46:12 PM
 #40

In a country with NHS, nothing stops you from going to a private hospital with gourmet menus and personal physicians. Pay as much as you like.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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