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Question: What payment scheme do you prefer?  (Voting closed: March 08, 2012, 05:46:46 PM)
PPS (~5% fee) - 9 (10.8%)
PPLNS (Pay Per Last N Shares) - 18 (21.7%)
DGM (Double Geometric Method) - 9 (10.8%)
Score (Similar to slush) - 8 (9.6%)
Stay with Proportional (as it is now) - 37 (44.6%)
Other? Write in thread! - 2 (2.4%)
Total Voters: 83

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Author Topic: [BITLC] Change of payment scheme for Bitlc.net (Previously bitcoins.lc)  (Read 4835 times)
P4man
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February 12, 2012, 01:52:25 PM
 #41

Not true, AFAIK, PPLNS will penalize occasional miners.  

You dont know "far enough" then, because it doesnt. There is an equal chance of your shares ending up in a shift that doesnt get paid (because no block is found within the next 10 shifts) as ending up in a shift that gets paid multiple times (because several blocks are found within the next 10 shifts).

Perhaps looking at these graphs helps:
https://bitminter.com/stats/rewards

The top chart show shifts and their payouts. If you mine intermittently, you shares could end up in any of those shifts randomly, some are paid zero PPS, some are paid 1x PPS (yellow line), some are paid multiple times. On average, assuming average pool luck, you will end up on the yellow line and obtain 100% PPS payout.

Of course you will have a higher variability than with PPS, and probably a higher variability than a non stop miner, but on average you will make exactly the same per share as a 24/7 miner and exactly the same as with any other hop proof payout scheme.

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martychubbs
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February 12, 2012, 02:13:01 PM
 #42

Not true, AFAIK, PPLNS will penalize occasional miners.  

You dont know "far enough" then, because it doesnt. There is an equal chance of your shares ending up in a shift that doesnt get paid (because no block is found within the next 10 shifts) as ending up in a shift that gets paid multiple times (because several blocks are found within the next 10 shifts).

Of course you will have a higher variability then with PPS, but on average you will make exactly the same as a 24/7 miner and exactly the same as with any other hop proof payout scheme.

just did a Google and forum search for "far enough" with or without PPLNS and did find anything, you are coining this "far enough".  BTW, mining prop the same way will do the same thing? Mining 24/7 on PPLNS is better than prop, but that is not what I said.  Occasional mining on PPLNS and Prop are the same so bitlc should stay the same unless it want to be a much smaller  inflexible pool than it is now. 
P4man
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February 12, 2012, 02:21:15 PM
 #43

just did a Google and forum search for "far enough" with or without PPLNS and did find anything, you are coining this "far enough".

it was a joke. You said "AFAIK".. As Far As I Know. Thats why I said you didnt know "far enough" Smiley

Quote
 BTW, mining prop the same way will do the same thing? Mining 24/7 on PPLNS is better than prop, but that is not what I said.
Occasional mining on PPLNS and Prop are the same so bitlc should stay the same unless it want to be a much smaller  inflexible pool than it is now.  

They are only "the same" (as in, same average reward)  if no one hops the prop pool.
Since bitlc is being hopped extensively, both 24/7 and intermittent miners are losing 20% compared to hop proof payout schemes.

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February 12, 2012, 03:18:09 PM
 #44


They are only "the same" (as in, same average reward)  if no one hops the prop pool.
Since bitlc is being hopped extensively, both 24/7 and intermittent miners are losing 20% compared to hop proof payout schemes.


Only if intermittent miners are intermittently mining late round.  If they intermittently mine early, they are golden Smiley  Ha


If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
P4man
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February 12, 2012, 03:22:33 PM
 #45

Only if intermittent miners are intermittently mining late randomly in relation to the round.  If they intermittently mine early, they are golden Smiley  Ha

I know you are joking, but some people in this thread may not understand the humor, so I corrected it.

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February 12, 2012, 05:15:16 PM
 #46


Since bitlc is being hopped extensively, both 24/7 and intermittent miners are losing 20% compared to hop proof payout schemes.


I really do disagree with your analysis on the hopping bitlc.  People are not averaging 120% on this pool, the stats make that very difficult.  See, A1 and BC show an accurate share count for each round.  Deepbit and Bitlc hide  or randomly delay share counts so you have to guess where the hop point is and even worse when it starts...  You need magic sauce that I don't see everyone agreeing on what it is exactly.  My magic sauce, turns out, is just catchup and mayonnaise...I only averaged around 100%.  Big problem is that false guesses will cause you to mine at a really bad time and that kills your efficiency.  A much worse consequence since mining late or jumping in before 100%.  On a transparent prop pool, you can still net over 100% efficiency.  Spending 400K in a 7million round sucks, a much worse penalty than mining 24/7 and it helps those full time miners get a block.  So that is why hopping bitlc is very hard.

Bottom line is YOU need to try it and prove it before you talk crazy...like me!  Hop it and your favorite PPLNS and show me you can do it...You! Can! Do! It!, Handy!
P4man
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February 12, 2012, 05:45:15 PM
 #47

  See, A1 and BC show an accurate share count for each round.  Deepbit and Bitlc hide  or randomly delay share counts so you have to guess where the hop point is and even worse when it starts...  You need magic sauce that I don't see everyone agreeing on what it is exactly.

Magic sauce?
Here, have some:

http://blockchain.info/


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February 12, 2012, 05:51:43 PM
 #48

Wow, that must be much easier to just look at that page.  It is totally accurate and in real-time.  OK, so it must be really easy to hop for you, give it a try.  And again, what will you do after 47% (?), if you turn off your miners you WILL have less than 100% payout over just a few blocks...  

BTW, your magic sauce is just mustard.
P4man
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February 12, 2012, 05:56:06 PM
 #49

Wow, that must be much easier to just look at that page.  It is totally accurate and in real-time.

What makes you think it isnt?

Quote
 OK, so it must be really easy to hop for you, give it a try.

If goat can, I think just about anyone can. Well maybe anyone except you?

Quote
 And again, what will you do after 47% (?), if you turn off your miners you WILL have less than 100% payout over just a few blocks...  

WTF? You cant be that stupid. You mine on a PPS or pplns pool of course and get 100% like anyone else mining there until you can hop again!

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February 12, 2012, 06:06:36 PM
 #50

Wow, that must be much easier to just look at that page.  It is totally accurate and in real-time.

What makes you think it isnt?

Quote
OK, so it must be really easy to hop for you, give it a try.

If goat can, I think just about anyone can. Well maybe anyone except you?

Quote
And again, what will you do after 47% (?), if you turn off your miners you WILL have less than 100% payout over just a few blocks...  

WTF? You cant be that stupid. You mine on a PPS or pplns pool of course and get 100% like anyone else mining there until you can hop again!

glad you did some reading!  "You mine on a PPS or pplns pool of course and get 100% like anyone else mining there until you can hop again!"  is much better.  But you clearly understod that when you posted:

I choose EMC/Oz/BP for backups cause they have to type of pool I need, plus has MM (and love, love you guys.)  Hope you understand, cause I hop, just suck at it.

You dont seem to understand what is meant by hopping; hopping doesnt mean switching pools whenever you feel like it. Hopping in this context means joining a proportional pool at the beginning of a new block and leave at the latest at 47% CDF. Doing so increases your profits substantially at the expense of people that dont hop, taking maximum advantage of lucky short blocks without suffering nearly as much on long blocks. You might begin to understand that if you calculate your current reward per share, why its smart to avoid that.

The other pools you mention are not proportional, they all use hop proof payout mechanisms. That means you can join or leave whenever you want without impacting your average reward, because your payout is not based on (known) past luck but (unknown) future luck.

Cause that made more sense, like when you explained the difference between prop and dgm, and why I should not use them as a BACKUP pool...cause they are hop proof!   Really, you best be watching http://blockchain.info/ for the next hop point...oh wait there is no share count? no hash rate, no round time? when would you hop out?  Oh wait you got that magic mustard!  And YOU called ME stupid...? Doh...
P4man
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February 12, 2012, 06:41:51 PM
 #51

Look Marty, maybe you have tried and failed to hop and therefore you think it cant be done. In that case, I dont know who is the bigger idiot, the 24/7 miners getting raped on a prop pool or you.

The tools are all out there, opensource and all, its no secret, its all on this forum and github, and while I havent tried it myself, it looks like anyone with half a brain should be able to get it to work. This was news back in February 2011 before people mined on GPUs. Welcome to 2012. You must be one of the last men standing who thinks hopping prop pools doesnt work.

Anyone else thinking it doesnt work, and is mining 24/7 on bitlc, calculate your revenue and you will see you are only earning ~80% of expected revenue. Its not bad luck of the pool, block average is spot on. Marty, why dont you mine 24/7 on Bitlc or bitclockers and prove me wrong?

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February 12, 2012, 06:45:49 PM
 #52

Look Marty, maybe you have tried and failed to hop and therefore you think it cant be done. In that case, I dont know who is the bigger idiot, the 24/7 miners getting raped on a prop pool or you.

Marty is a poolhopping troll who's mad that he can hop one less pool after this, so could you please consider not feeding him/it? Pretty please?

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P4man
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February 12, 2012, 06:49:25 PM
 #53

Look Marty, maybe you have tried and failed to hop and therefore you think it cant be done. In that case, I dont know who is the bigger idiot, the 24/7 miners getting raped on a prop pool or you.

Marty is a poolhopping troll who's mad that he can hop one less pool after this, so could you please consider not feeding him/it? Pretty please?

I dont think so, I think he is truly as clueless as he appears. He is offering his hashrate to Clipse for 100% PPS. Enough said.

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February 12, 2012, 06:54:29 PM
 #54

Look Marty, maybe you have tried and failed to hop and therefore you think it cant be done. In that case, I dont know who is the bigger idiot, the 24/7 miners getting raped on a prop pool or you.

Marty is a poolhopping troll who's mad that he can hop one less pool after this, so could you please consider not feeding him/it? Pretty please?

I dont think so, I think he is truly as clueless as he appears. He is offering his hashrate to Clipse for 100% PPS. Enough said.

Read enough of his posts, especially the btc guild thread and that "btc guild is stealing from its users" thread a couple of months back. Enough said.

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P4man
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February 12, 2012, 06:59:52 PM
 #55

Read enough of his posts, especially the btc guild thread and that "btc guild is stealing from its users" thread a couple of months back. Enough said.

Maybe you're right, but there seem to be plenty of posters in this thread that still dont get it, so it doesnt hurt to defuse his nonsense just in case someone actually believes it.

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February 12, 2012, 07:01:25 PM
 #56

Look Marty, maybe you have tried and failed to hop and therefore you think it cant be done. In that case, I dont know who is the bigger idiot, the 24/7 miners getting raped on a prop pool or you.

Marty is a poolhopping troll who's mad that he can hop one less pool after this, so could you please consider not feeding him/it? Pretty please?

I dont think so, I think he is truly as clueless as he appears. He is offering his hashrate to Clipse for 100% PPS. Enough said.

Huh I thought Clipse's was paying 115%

Somebody's gotta finance this revolution - you can help by donating supplies, ammo, field hospital beds or simply BTCs here: 1QBNASECM8z2LLojkqZH3s2F8Ur7nhafNc
martychubbs
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February 12, 2012, 07:25:58 PM
 #57

Look Marty, maybe you have tried and failed to hop and therefore you think it cant be done. In that case, I dont know who is the bigger idiot, the 24/7 miners getting raped on a prop pool or you.

Marty is a poolhopping troll who's mad that he can hop one less pool after this, so could you please consider not feeding him/it? Pretty please?

I dont think so, I think he is truly as clueless as he appears. He is offering his hashrate to Clipse for 100% PPS. Enough said.

Huh I thought Clipse's was paying 115%

IF i can get 120% as a backup pool, good enough, but I think it is hop proof PPS? Sad Also, i would be upset if another prop pool goes down due to http://www.thefreedictionary.com/whining, but Jine will make a move and we will all see if it benefits his business, cause that is what its really about.  

Thanks for pointing me to github for help on hopping, look around genius!  Clue may be closer than you think, look down, lower, over...past your stomach is too far and you hands are out of bounds.  However, http://blockchain.info is the sauce!

Sell ya a core2...duo?  You can be C2dwoMan mining 24/7 on PPLNS!
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February 12, 2012, 07:36:48 PM
 #58

Maybe you're right, but there seem to be plenty of posters in this thread that still dont get it, so it doesnt hurt to defuse his nonsense just in case someone actually believes it.
Just posters who spreads disinformation when another hoppable pool looks like it is going to disappear. Not the first to employ this troll technique or the first to get ignored by me.

martychubbs
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February 12, 2012, 07:37:00 PM
 #59

Look Marty, maybe you have tried and failed to hop and therefore you think it cant be done. In that case, I dont know who is the bigger idiot, the 24/7 miners getting raped on a prop pool or you.

Marty is a poolhopping troll who's mad that he can hop one less pool after this, so could you please consider not feeding him/it? Pretty please?

You just did, and why are you mining a prop pool?  Cause it's not that bad as C2dwoMan says?  Anywho, I am dropping it...  However, C2dwoMan is being so dumb that I can't control myself Smiley  

All I am doing is summing up what lazy people didn't already know.
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February 12, 2012, 07:39:42 PM
 #60

Just posters who spreads disinformation when another hoppable pool looks like it is going to disappear. Not the first to employ this troll technique or the first to get ignored by me.

Point taken and ignore list expanded.

BTW, saw your sig.
Quote
I'm looking for a 0 fee PPLNS merged mining pool, where are you?
The one in my sig fits the bill.

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