[796.com] RedStarMining.com - the oldest public mining security [15.0(TH/s)]

[jaeyjay]

Our current market cap is 1,171 BTC, and we're talking about OVER doubling the amount of shares to raise 200BTC?

It sounds like these investor buddies are getting half the company almost for free at the rest of our expense.

We currently only have 180(GH/s)@65nm on pre-order.  This new investment is bringing 800(GH/s)@28nm.  With 400(GH/s) in September and the reminding 400(GH/s) in October.  For the record none of my close friends is taking part in this new investment.  £1,400 investor local to me I met on the internet and only became friends through this deal.  The potential BTC27 investor who is my friend is not investing as those are all the coins he's got any doesn't want to risk them.  These new shares are to be distributed amongst eleven different investors so far.  If you own shares they're currently worth 2.8(MH/s) each while this new investment will make them worth 7(MH/s) each.  As has been stated many times recently. 

I'll put a motion up to run until 00:00 Wednesday GMT/UTC.  Let just hope the bitcoin price doesn't tank.

All pledges so far have been recorded on this spreadsheet.  Please check your amount is correct before the motion is over - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ap02rO_j4NLvdFZuMlZnRDFDUFBhaGdsSm9tWkhna2c&usp=sharing

Just to confirm then, based on the New Investors sheet, someone who currently owns as little as 1.5BTC worth of shares could (and absolutely should) sell them at market for .017/share, then pledge them back to you and buy back their shares at .002btc/share?

A few hours ago, according to the btct trading history, someone bought 778 shares for a total price of ~14btc.  Meanwhile, Jaejay (on your investor list) pledged 15btc, and stands to receive around 11,000 shares. 

Honestly, this is madness.

First of all, at BTC15 at .002 a share, I'm only going to receive 7,500 shares. The spreadsheet is not including the ~20 more coins needed in order to get the Jupiter upgrade which would raise total shares to 140,000.

Second of all, us new investors are getting the short end of the stick in this investment. If I invested my BTC15 into a group buy for KNC Miners, I would be getting at least 10 more gh/s than my investment into RSM. The old shareholders are reaping profits from our loss as they gain an increase in hash rate for their shares. I am also an old shareholder in this company and believe in its future, which is why I'm investing my bitcoins here instead of elsewhere.

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[adameb]

My bad, I was comparing the ratio of current pledged total to proposed new shares issued, as opposed to the total targeted raises amount.

In any event, it's still a MUCH worse deal for current shareholders.  It'd be inconceivable for a company whose stock was selling for $9 to start issuing new equal shares for $1. 

As a new shareholder you're not even getting that bad of a deal, since you're valuing the previous order at like 136btc.

[canth]

Yes we're to issue shares at around ~BTC0.002.  We currently have 63,865 shares on the market and I'd like to take us up to 140,000 exactly as its a round number.  So that would mean the creation of 76,135 new shares.  The original price offered was ~BTC0.002055921 but to keep at 140,000 would mean up to BTC0.0021 which is BTC0.002055921 rounded to four significant figures.  But if we've to have an odd number of shares so be it.  It depends on BTC price when we pay for the KNC's

The new shares are being issued at 1/10th of the cost of market?

Yeah, run by us again why issuing new shares at 1/10th of market makes sense?

You could just put new ones up for sale on market at .004 and raise same money issuing half the shares without all the invisible pledging junk.

That's IF investors vote to have the share price destroyed of course.  Wjich is unlikely - as anyone wanting to vote yes would be better off selling their shares then pledging them to get new ones at a fraction of the price.

At worst what you should do is auction the shares on the market if there's a desperate need to sell them - that way you at least get the maximum price per share and it doesn't look like giving away shares to mates.

Keep in mind that these aren't just ordinary shares - they're going to be locked for several months and untradable while waiting for hardware to arrive. Also, there's some value to getting an early pre-order for hardware for the KnC hardware that will likely arrive 30 days or more before hardware purchased today.

Disclosure - I have offered Matthew my day-1 Saturn in exchange for shares, as described above. I'm not trying to persuade anyone to vote in any way besides what they think is best for the company and their interest, I just want to note a couple of details.

[matthewh3]

If someone sold there shares to go into this new investment well they wont receive any dividends for their new shares until the new units are hashing.  If KNC never deliver they basically end up with nothing.  So its not as simple of just selling your shares on the market at BTC0.018 and buying them back at BTC0.002.  As the newly issued shares are to be held by RSM until the new 28nm equipment is hashing.  Tho if BFL were to still implode I'm sure the new investors would have been happy that their shares were. ring-fenced.  Our first BFL was ordered on the 7th of July 2012 and they're still shipping day one pre-ordered SC's from the 23rd of June 2012 and have been for over three weeks now.  The current BFL problem AFAIK is that they're waiting on PSU's for the newly designed SC and are asking customers if they want them shipped without a PSU.  As our BFL SC's are to be hosted we kinda stuck until they have PSU's.  Unless we could potentially find and trust someone in the states to provide us with a homebrew PSU and host our boards.

[Deprived]

Point is simply that if you, as manager, are saying shares in October will only be worth .002 then that means they're hugely over-valued right now.  In which case you should be selling new ones down to somewhere near there as you giving out a load more at .002 is guaranteed to crash the price down to near there anyway.

Value of the shares right now is whatever the BFL pre-orders are worth divided by number of shares.  Take off that whatever dividends are likely to be paid before October and that's what share should be selling at.

If there was any evidence suggesting you'd done anything to make a profit for investors then some percentage could be added to that in respect of management.  But I'm pretty sure current NAV/U + dividends received is less than price paid so there's not really any reason to aply a bonus to valuation for management (as initial investors would be better off if they'd just kept their BTC in the first place).  Think that's pretty true for any investment that gambled on BFL shipping on time - not just this one.

[adameb]

Point is simply that if you, as manager, are saying shares in October will only be worth .002 then that means they're hugely over-valued right now.  In which case you should be selling new ones down to somewhere near there as you giving out a load more at .002 is guaranteed to crash the price down to near there anyway.

Value of the shares right now is whatever the BFL pre-orders are worth divided by number of shares.  Take off that whatever dividends are likely to be paid before October and that's what share should be selling at.

If there was any evidence suggesting you'd done anything to make a profit for investors then some percentage could be added to that in respect of management.  But I'm pretty sure current NAV/U + dividends received is less than price paid so there's not really any reason to aply a bonus to valuation for management (as initial investors would be better off if they'd just kept their BTC in the first place).  Think that's pretty true for any investment that gambled on BFL shipping on time - not just this one.

Exactly.

This really is a toxic deal for all parties involved.  Initially it'll be the current holders as the the market corrects to adjust for this massive discount dilution. Then the people pledging are going to wonder why they're giving away half their mining rig and question whether they should all just join in together to buy the new hardware under a new company and have double the profits.

[adameb]

If someone sold there shares to go into this new investment well they wont receive any dividends for their new shares until the new units are hashing.  If KNC never deliver they basically end up with nothing.  So its not as simple of just selling your shares on the market at BTC0.018 and buying them back at BTC0.002.  As the newly issued shares are to be held by RSM until the new 28nm equipment is hashing.  Tho if BFL were to still implode I'm sure the new investors would have been happy that their shares were. ring-fenced.  Our first BFL was ordered on the 7th of July 2012 and they're still shipping day one pre-ordered SC's from the 23rd of June 2012 and have been for over three weeks now.  The current BFL problem AFAIK is that they're waiting on PSU's for the newly designed SC and are asking customers if they want them shipped without a PSU.  As our BFL SC's are to be hosted we kinda stuck until they have PSU's.  Unless we could potentially find and trust someone in the states to provide us with a homebrew PSU and host our boards.

If a random shareholder sold all their shares right now for 10btc, and then messaged you and said 'hey, i'd like to pledge 10btc for the KNC units @.002/share", would they be allowed?

[matthewh3]

Point is simply that if you, as manager, are saying shares in October will only be worth .002 then that means they're hugely over-valued right now.  In which case you should be selling new ones down to somewhere near there as you giving out a load more at .002 is guaranteed to crash the price down to near there anyway.

Value of the shares right now is whatever the BFL pre-orders are worth divided by number of shares.  Take off that whatever dividends are likely to be paid before October and that's what share should be selling at.

If there was any evidence suggesting you'd done anything to make a profit for investors then some percentage could be added to that in respect of management.  But I'm pretty sure current NAV/U + dividends received is less than price paid so there's not really any reason to aply a bonus to valuation for management (as initial investors would be better off if they'd just kept their BTC in the first place).  Think that's pretty true for any investment that gambled on BFL shipping on time - not just this one.

IMHO RSM share price is in a massive bubble.  At the IPO issue price taking the stock split into effect the share price was BTC0.01 when BTC was below $20.  Now the BTC share price is nearly double that while BTC price its self has increased almost five fold  The price is based on the speculation of large dividends to be issued off the three BFL SC's which new investors at BTC0.002 won't receive.  I bought over 23% of shares currently available off the market my self.  So if I was just into RSM for a quick profit I'd flood the market down to a price where I've still made a profit and keep flooding the market.  But I'm in RSM for the long haul and still have orders to buy more shares as my current plan is to still buy back as much as possible.  Another reason for the high price of RSM shares is due to the high value our early pre-orders have.  This motion is to add another early pre-order.  A day one 28nm KNC pre-order.  The main reason we're ordering a second for October delivery was so as not to waist any pledged funds.  Even if it mean I have to add up to BTC20.00 to secure the second Jupiter.

If the majority doesn't vote yes in this motion a second motion will be held on whether to just accept the 28nm day one pre-ordered Saturn and keep enough funds to upgrade it to a Jupiter.  If both fail and RSM fails to expand while we're still just waiting for a pre-order after twelve months then I think all investors should look at Evelovex work on calculating the growth and dividend fund just off the BFL SC's being delivered today and not in six weeks after KNC are due to start shipping with us not having one. 

That price offered BTC0.002 is to represent the gamble the new investors are making and attract enough investment plus the fact they'll be getting no dividends until the KNC's are hashing.  The price was at only BTC0.002 a few months ago so I feel I'm offering them not just a good deal but a fair deal.  As IMHO I think RSM price bubbled when BFL started to ship then started to fall as BFL still hadn't delivered.  The price started rising again on the prospectus of this new seed investment.

[matthewh3]

If someone sold there shares to go into this new investment well they wont receive any dividends for their new shares until the new units are hashing.  If KNC never deliver they basically end up with nothing.  So its not as simple of just selling your shares on the market at BTC0.018 and buying them back at BTC0.002.  As the newly issued shares are to be held by RSM until the new 28nm equipment is hashing.  Tho if BFL were to still implode I'm sure the new investors would have been happy that their shares were. ring-fenced.  Our first BFL was ordered on the 7th of July 2012 and they're still shipping day one pre-ordered SC's from the 23rd of June 2012 and have been for over three weeks now.  The current BFL problem AFAIK is that they're waiting on PSU's for the newly designed SC and are asking customers if they want them shipped without a PSU.  As our BFL SC's are to be hosted we kinda stuck until they have PSU's.  Unless we could potentially find and trust someone in the states to provide us with a homebrew PSU and host our boards.

If a random shareholder sold all their shares right now for 10btc, and then messaged you and said 'hey, i'd like to pledge 10btc for the KNC units @.002/share", would they be allowed?

Yes if they chose that gamble its open to anyone.  Although unless we can raise enough for a third Jupiter (an extra 1.2(TH/s) to our current 180(GH/s)) then we capping fund raising at another BTC20.00 to save me investing anymore ATM.  I can't see us raising another $7,500 tho at this stage.  I've bought over 23% of shares off the exchanges and have the biggest dog in the fight and think its a good deal.  To be able to grow while we've been waiting for pre-orders over a year ago.  This new deal raises shares values to guaranteed 7(MH/s) from the current 2.8(MH/s).  Do you know when our SC are gonna ship as they've been shipping day one pre-ordered SC's for a three weeks now.

Also yes I do still think BFL share price is in a bubble I stopped buying at BTC0.01 and won't start buying again until it goes below that price for now.  Or until we're hashing at 980(GH/s) that the new plan will guarantee up from the current 180(GH/s) only due.

[adameb]

I definitely respect your candor.

[matthewh3]

I definitely respect your candor.

If we can raise the final BTC20 no funds from me are needed.  I'm currently the largest shareholder mainly through buying them well over 90% of my shares.  So I'll feel the greatest effects from this and wont be getting any of the new shares if we can raise the final 20.00.  As I only have limited coins and very limited funds in total.

Edit:  That is what I meant by having the biggest dog in the fight.  Having a dog in the fight is an English expression meaning the matter effects me.

[lunarboy]

If someone sold there shares to go into this new investment well they wont receive any dividends for their new shares until the new units are hashing.  If KNC never deliver they basically end up with nothing.  So its not as simple of just selling your shares on the market at BTC0.018 and buying them back at BTC0.002.  As the newly issued shares are to be held by RSM until the new 28nm equipment is hashing.  Tho if BFL were to still implode I'm sure the new investors would have been happy that their shares were. ring-fenced.  Our first BFL was ordered on the 7th of July 2012 and they're still shipping day one pre-ordered SC's from the 23rd of June 2012 and have been for over three weeks now.  The current BFL problem AFAIK is that they're waiting on PSU's for the newly designed SC and are asking customers if they want them shipped without a PSU.  As our BFL SC's are to be hosted we kinda stuck until they have PSU's.  Unless we could potentially find and trust someone in the states to provide us with a homebrew PSU and host our boards.

If a random shareholder sold all their shares right now for 10btc, and then messaged you and said 'hey, i'd like to pledge 10btc for the KNC units @.002/share", would they be allowed?

If a random shareholder sold 10BTC of shares right now the price would drop to nearly 0.002 anyway. Your point is kind of mute.

The market is just not that liquid, moreover it's 90% reinvestment stock anyway so nobody here is in for a 'quick profit'

[Evolvex]

Would it not of been better better to put all three motions up at once rather than just the one you wanted to go through? That way people can vote fairly having all the options available upfront. I've already voted, but now I know you were planning to put the other motions up if this one failed, I feel like I've been handed a deck of cards all the same and asked to pick one.

If there are options they should all be put on the table, not just the one you want to "win".

Also, putting that you think the shares are in a bubble..... not ideal :s

[matthewh3]

Would it not of been better better to put all three motions up at once rather than just the one you wanted to go through? That way people can vote fairly having all the options available upfront. I've already voted, but now I know you were planning to put the other motions up if this one failed, I feel like I've been handed a deck of cards all the same and asked to pick one.

If there are options they should all be put on the table, not just the one you want to "win".

Also, putting that you think the shares are in a bubble..... not ideal :s

If I wasn't in RSM for the long haul I'd have sold the shares I bought and doubled my money.  Any short to medium investor would be stupid not to.   If I truly believed the bubble would burst I would sell my 16,000 shares and buy them back cheaper.  Also I think you can change your vote or you could on the GLBSE.     

[Evolvex]

Would it not of been better better to put all three motions up at once rather than just the one you wanted to go through? That way people can vote fairly having all the options available upfront. I've already voted, but now I know you were planning to put the other motions up if this one failed, I feel like I've been handed a deck of cards all the same and asked to pick one.

If there are options they should all be put on the table, not just the one you want to "win".

Also, putting that you think the shares are in a bubble..... not ideal :s

If I wasn't in RSM for the long haul I'd have sold the shares I bought and doubled my money.  Any short to medium investor would be stupid not to.   If I truly believed the bubble would burst I would sell my 16,000 shares and buy them back cheaper.  Also I think you can change your vote or you could on the GLBSE.     

Apologies that came across more arsey than intended, however I was expecting to see all the options you have put on the table, there have been so many and it does get rather confusing to keep up with what is going on in here.

Yes, noticed you can change it, I've decided mine gonna stick with it - long haul as you say.

[matthewh3]

Would it not of been better better to put all three motions up at once rather than just the one you wanted to go through? That way people can vote fairly having all the options available upfront. I've already voted, but now I know you were planning to put the other motions up if this one failed, I feel like I've been handed a deck of cards all the same and asked to pick one.

If there are options they should all be put on the table, not just the one you want to "win".

Also, putting that you think the shares are in a bubble..... not ideal :s

If I wasn't in RSM for the long haul I'd have sold the shares I bought and doubled my money.  Any short to medium investor would be stupid not to.   If I truly believed the bubble would burst I would sell my 16,000 shares and buy them back cheaper.  Also I think you can change your vote or you could on the GLBSE.     

Apologies that came across more arsey than intended, however I was expecting to see all the options you have put on the table, there have been so many and it does get rather confusing to keep up with what is going on in here.

Yes, noticed you can change it, I've decided mine gonna stick with it - long haul as you say.

It's OK Evelovex I probably know you the most in this thread.  So if I can take criticism from you a lot easier as you're not a stranger.  I'm the largest shareholder (through buying them) so the extra shares will effect my holdings the most and I think its a very good deal at this current time.  Also I do believe the majority of these 80,000 shares will be kept long term.  If not they can't sell the new shares until they're providing us with value by hashing.  So I don't see it crashing the market and if it goes below BTC0.010 ever again then'll start buying aggressively straight away again.  These current lofty prices are putting me off personally buying anymore until we're at the potential 980(GH/s) hashing away.

[dRMergatroid]

53.9% approval on the vote!
Looks like we're going ahead with the expansion plan.

Yay pledgers!

RSM  - 800(GH/s)

 

[matthewh3]

The RSM wallet now contains BTC100.81 and we've been pledged a further BTC30.00.  So no funds are needed from me and we can go ahead with the KNC purchases tomorrow depending on the results of the motion.  We're going to cap fundraising now as I can't see us raising another $7,000 of BTC fast enough to pre-order a third 400(GH/s)@28nm Jupiter.

[matthewh3]

It seems that as I'm ordering the KNC Jupiter from the UK that UK VAT is needed to be paid even if we get KNC to host them.  We could potentially get canth to order it from the states to be hosted by KNC and avoid $1,500 in VAT.  He has already pledged his KNC Saturn day one pre order and some coins.  Making him now our largest shareholder so potentially have both Jupiters hosted by KNC in canth KNC account to save paying $1,500 in VAT.  Then after six months when there worth less have them shipped to me so less VAT is paid.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=120991

[matthewh3]

It seems that as I'm ordering the KNC Jupiter from the UK that UK VAT is needed to be paid even if we get KNC to host them.  We could potentially get canth to order it from the states to be hosted by KNC and avoid $1,500 in VAT.  He has already pledged his KNC Saturn day one pre order and some coins.  Making him now our largest shareholder so potentially have both Jupiters hosted by KNC in canth KNC account to save paying $1,500 in VAT.  Then after six months when there worth less have them shipped to me so less VAT is paid.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=120991

I'll see if we could get canth to order them and then have them moved to a separate account at KNC to save paying the $1,500 in VAT.