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Author Topic: [ANN] FIMK: 2.5G POS, extra block rewards, messaging, asset colors, p2p shopping  (Read 184267 times)
Eliphaz Fimk (OP)
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July 07, 2014, 04:19:08 PM
 #621

I am a large FIM holder (from IPO) and I even I think it would be nice to have incentives for smaller FIM holders to get involved.
We'll think this through how to arrange it, but it's very difficult to do without skewing the incentives towards unfairness.

Bonus rewards are not paid very often, so random variance will play a big role and even small time forgers have a considerable chance of hitting the bonanza on one of them.

         
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July 07, 2014, 04:20:53 PM
 #622

1000+ votes on BTER. come on
gvans
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July 07, 2014, 04:38:00 PM
 #623

I am a large FIM holder (from IPO) and I even I think it would be nice to have incentives for smaller FIM holders to get involved.
We'll think this through how to arrange it, but it's very difficult to do without skewing the incentives towards unfairness.

Bonus rewards are not paid very often, so random variance will play a big role and even small time forgers have a considerable chance of hitting the bonanza on one of them.

Rough idea: Divide the reward with the forging account's balance and use that as a factor. Additionally have a maximum cap for revard, like 10000 now. This way anyone with 10000 or less would get the full reward 10000. Account with 50000 would get 10000/50000 times 10000 = 2000 etc. Simple.

The 200 FIMK basic reward would be paid in any case for the extra rewarded block like for any block. So an account with a million would get the usual 200 + only 100 extra. But an account with a million on it will forge like what, 600 000 a year was it?

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July 07, 2014, 04:55:44 PM
 #624

Proportionally each account forge with the same rate. No matter how coins it has.
If talking about this particular 10000 reward, most _probably_ it will go to the `middle class` holder. Just because stakes of `poor` holders are too small, and count of `rich` holders is too low.
I don`t remember how IPO listing looked like, but most probably again, it looked like most of things in our world - as `normal distribution` Smiley

But from other side, we will see normal distribution of bonus rewards only after they will happen in a quite a lot quantity. Smiley
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July 07, 2014, 04:57:42 PM
Last edit: July 07, 2014, 05:08:36 PM by gvans
 #625

Proportionally each account forge with the same rate. No matter how coins it has.

But with PoS the rich do not get richer. No matter how much coin do you have, any one coin will always earn the same return. This is the most fair system you can ask for.

Come on it's math. Big stakes do accumulate way faster and therefore rich do get richer.

I guess I'm trying to say we have to see this reward as an average future Finnish user will see it. There is the great potential if it will be widely adopted. So as a citizen you get 100 FIMK a month for starters. That is peanuts but that is what they will have. So you have received 600 in half a year and you're thinking: should I investigate this further and maybe try forging. Hey there is these regular rewards every week! Hmmm, maybe I'll give it a shot. So rather have a rewards more often and pay them reduced whenever the forging account is a big one (saving the capital for future rewards) rather than pay a full reward twice a year.

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July 07, 2014, 05:08:05 PM
 #626

Proportionally each account forge with the same rate. No matter how coins it has.

But with PoS the rich do not get richer. No matter how much coin do you have, any one coin will always earn the same return. This is the most fair system you can ask for.

Come on it's math. Big stakes do accumulate way faster and therefore rich do get richer.

You don't understand.

Poor guy has 0.1% of all coins initially.
Rich guy has 10% of all coins initially.
Both are forging 24/7 for a year.

In the end of the year they still will have 0.1%/10% of all existing coins.
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July 07, 2014, 05:27:23 PM
Last edit: July 07, 2014, 08:36:19 PM by gvans
 #627

Proportionally each account forge with the same rate. No matter how coins it has.

But with PoS the rich do not get richer. No matter how much coin do you have, any one coin will always earn the same return. This is the most fair system you can ask for.

Come on it's math. Big stakes do accumulate way faster and therefore rich do get richer.

You don't understand.

Poor guy has 0.1% of all coins initially.
Rich guy has 10% of all coins initially.
Both are forging 24/7 for a year.

In the end of the year they still will have 0.1%/10% of all existing coins.


example calculation:

100 000 coins distributed from total 200 000
daily interest 1%

100 000 coins distributed
account A 0.1% (100 coins)  earns 1 a day
account B 10% (10 000 coins) earns 100 a day
account C 89.1% (89 900 coins) earns 899 a day

after one day
account A 101 coins = 0.05% of total 200 000
account B 10100 coins = 5.0% of total 200 000
account C 90799 coins = 45.4% of total 200 000

after two days
account A 102.01 coins = 0.051%
account B 10201 coins = 5.10%
account C 91706.99 coins = 45.85%

after ten days
account A 110.46 coins = 0.055%
account B 11046 coins = 5.5%
account C 99305.53 coins = 49.65%

after 50 days
account A 164.46 coins = 0.082% (started from 0.05% of total 200 000)
account B 16446.32 coins = 8.2% (started from 5% of total 200 000)
account C 147852.40 coins = 73.9% (started from 44.95% of total 200 000)

The growth will end when the total cap of 200 000 coins is reached naturally.


edit: this clearly does not work in the economic model of fixed amount of currency, my bad
edit2: it kinda does with FIMK after all. Half of the total amount in the citculation in the beginning, so the percentages of the stakes from start will change accordingly  Wink
edit3: D'oh  Wink https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=633304.msg7724062#msg7724062

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July 07, 2014, 05:37:24 PM
 #628

dance said In the end of the year they still will have 0.1%/10% of all existing coins.
That is not the case.

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July 07, 2014, 05:39:01 PM
 #629


basic maths (example):

total 100 000 coins

account A 0.1% (100 coins)  earns 1 a day
account B 10% (10 000 coins) earns 100 a day
So there are 100000 coins represents 100%.
Where are another 89.9%? Lets name it account C (89900 coins).

Quote
after one day
account A 101 coins = 0.101%
account B 10100 coins = 10.1%
And account C  90799 coins.

So NOW 100% coins != 100000 coins. It is 90799+10100+101=101000 now.
So A still has 0.1%
B still has 10%
C still has 89.9%

etc
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July 07, 2014, 05:47:40 PM
 #630

Someone give ME a facepalm, lol. But I still don't understand how does this work when put into perspective of having fixed amount of coins.

Anyhow agree with Jack Needles, good start.

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July 07, 2014, 05:56:33 PM
 #631

I have been forging, but had to reboot my computer today. After reboot, I started up the fimk java process (ran the run.bat file), and logged in my account. It says I'm forging again - is this normal? I thought that if the java process dies I'd have to start forging again.
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July 07, 2014, 05:58:16 PM
 #632

@dance
Actually with FIMK model the total would be accordingly to previous example calculation 200 000 fixed.
and 100 000 from the beginning in circulation. Right?

Total FIMK in Genesis block: 666,280,000
Genesis block stakeholder funds: 333,140,000

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July 07, 2014, 06:10:05 PM
 #633

hi dev, what are the future plans? what are the marketing plans? How you intend to spend the BTCs from IPO?
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July 07, 2014, 06:10:32 PM
 #634

@dance
Actually with FIMK model the total would be accordingly to previous example calculation 200 000 fixed.
and 100 000 from the beginning in circulation. Right?

Total FIMK in Genesis block: 666,280,000
Genesis block stakeholder funds: 333,140,000
I'm not really understanding you.

For me it is easy to think like that:
We all received 300,000,000 coins in amounts according to our stakes.

170,000,000 addition will be given to us in the first year.

And amounts of these additions will have the same proportions as our initial stakes.

You payed for 30,000 coins initially - you will receive 17,000 at the end of the year.
You payed for 3,000,000 coins - you will receive 1,700,000 at the end of the year.
Eliphaz Fimk (OP)
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July 07, 2014, 06:13:31 PM
 #635

Made a Facebook Fanpage @ https://www.facebook.com/FIMKrypto

Nice work. Would you consider transferring access rights to Krypto FIN ry. for us to effectively be able to use the particular account for promotion, announcements and related things please?

         
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July 07, 2014, 06:30:29 PM
Last edit: July 07, 2014, 06:53:31 PM by gvans
 #636

@dance
Actually with FIMK model the total would be accordingly to previous example calculation 200 000 fixed.
and 100 000 from the beginning in circulation. Right?

Total FIMK in Genesis block: 666,280,000
Genesis block stakeholder funds: 333,140,000
I'm not really understanding you.

For me it is easy to think like that:
We all received 300,000,000 coins in amounts according to our stakes.

170,000,000 addition will be given to us in the first year.

And amounts of these additions will have the same proportions as our initial stakes.

You payed for 30,000 coins initially - you will receive 17,000 at the end of the year.
You payed for 3,000,000 coins - you will receive 1,700,000 at the end of the year.

No worries I'm not here to argue, not at all. It's more like I'm trying to get my head around how this works. I did correct my calculation so that the initial distribution is half of the total as it is in FIMK https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=633304.msg7721274#msg7721274
But I will take the facepalm if I'm wrong Cheesy

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July 07, 2014, 06:33:35 PM
 #637

Made a Facebook Fanpage @ https://www.facebook.com/FIMKrypto

Nice work. Would you consider transferring access rights to Krypto FIN ry. for us to effectively be able to use the particular account for promotion, announcements and related things please?

Sure

Yes, I think it could cause confusion if this Facebook page is not maintained by the Devs (because of the exact fb url /Fimkrypto)

NEM, LSK, STRAT
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July 07, 2014, 07:00:05 PM
 #638

I'm not really understanding you.

For me it is easy to think like that:
We all received 300,000,000 coins in amounts according to our stakes.

170,000,000 addition will be given to us in the first year.

And amounts of these additions will have the same proportions as our initial stakes.

You payed for 30,000 coins initially - you will receive 17,000 at the end of the year.
You payed for 3,000,000 coins - you will receive 1,700,000 at the end of the year.

That's true under the assumption that all coins are forging 24/7 the whole year (and we now that there is ~20M in accounts owned by the developers, not sure if they are forging). We know that from 1-10-2014 onward 100 FIMK/month will be distributed to Finnish citizens who have opted-in (if it turns out a major success the funds (313M) will be deplete very quickly, 5 400 000 people in Finland, ~83% = 15+, if 5% opt-in, ~22M/month as basic income), this alters the rate also.

Currently sampling the growth rate, which till now is much higher (from my perspective at least)...  Wink
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July 07, 2014, 07:10:45 PM
 #639

I'm not really understanding you.

For me it is easy to think like that:
We all received 300,000,000 coins in amounts according to our stakes.

170,000,000 addition will be given to us in the first year.

And amounts of these additions will have the same proportions as our initial stakes.

You payed for 30,000 coins initially - you will receive 17,000 at the end of the year.
You payed for 3,000,000 coins - you will receive 1,700,000 at the end of the year.

That's true under the assumption that all coins are forging 24/7 the whole year (and we now that there is ~20M in accounts owned by the developers, not sure if they are forging). We know that from 1-10-2014 onward 100 FIMK/month will be distributed to Finnish citizens who have opted-in (if it turns out a major success the funds (313M) will be deplete very quickly, 5 400 000 people in Finland, ~83% = 15+, if 5% opt-in, ~22M/month as basic income), this alters the rate also.

Currently sampling the growth rate, which till now is much higher (from my perspective at least)...  Wink

Yes, my model is simplified.
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July 07, 2014, 07:18:27 PM
Last edit: July 07, 2014, 07:30:56 PM by dance
 #640


No worries I'm not here to argue, not at all. It's more like I'm trying to get my head around how this works. I did correct my calculation so that the initial distribution is half of the total as it is in FIMK https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=633304.msg7721274#msg7721274
But I will take the facepalm if I'm wrong Cheesy

Now I see where are you wrong.
There is no 1% interest.
There is only 200 fimk per block (plus transaction fees).

So 1st day A received 1 coin because he owns 0.1%
And the 2nd and all others days he will be receiving 1 coin because he still owns 0.1%

B will be receiving his 100 each day respectively.
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