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Author Topic: 220v Help  (Read 7899 times)
DeathAndTaxes
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Gerald Davis


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February 14, 2012, 02:41:38 PM
 #21


I don't think that is a standalone PDU.  I believe (based on the docs) that it is installed INSIDE an HP datacenter sized UPS.  To provide 40A of distribution.  

However generally speaking... yes.  If you find a PDU which is rated for 40 amps it will require an outlet which is capable of 40 amps.  In the US there is no 40A 240V outlets.  Just 30A & 50A.  40A breakers are usually used for hardwired devices like Air conditioners.  Still the general rule applies whatever the max voltage of the device is, it should use that plug, and that plug should have a matching outlet, and that outlet should be wired to a matching circuit.  It is technically possible to wire a non "NEMA" PDU to a non "NEMA" outlet but it would be a violation of National Electrical Code.  Remember the purpose of the code isn't to just protect YOU but anyone else who may run into that circuit in the future.  Given houses can last 50, 60, 80 even 100 years that is a lot of people and they may be unfamiliar with whatever non-US outlet, configuration you install.

20A PDU -> 20A plug -> 30A outlet -> 20A circuit.
30A PDU -> 30A plug -> 30A outlet -> 30A circuit.
50A PDU -> 50A plug -> 50A outlet -> 50A circuit.



I noticed you said dryer outlet.  Dryers, and stoves are "Special". They use 4 wires (120V L1, 120V L2, neutral, and ground) because some parts of the dryer/stove (light the controls) run @ 120V for safety and the high current heating elements run at 240V.  Since they need both voltages they are special.  You don't want a dryer/stove plug.  Just a NEMA 6 or L6 of the right amperage.  For anything over 20A I would recommend a locking connector.


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February 14, 2012, 05:55:40 PM
 #22

Thanks for the write up, I am very confident in the install now, I have installed a regular outlet before and I have looked in my breaker box so everything makes perfect sense, however depending on the cost I still may hire an electrician. The main breakers for my box are located outside the house so luckly I would not have the live wires coming into the box (correct?) However, I would have to run in and out of the house a lot to switch it on and off.

In regards to the plugs, this seems to be the confusing thing at this point. So I could not use a 50A outlet with a 40A breaker?
I have no problem installing a 50A breaker, I would just need to look for a 50A PDU. But that HP unit looked great for the price and I already have a 40A breaker.

I was looking at the picture of the PDU and it has a plug, not hard wired, I dont understand if the outlets dont exist why they would do that...
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Gerald Davis


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February 14, 2012, 06:23:32 PM
 #23

In regards to the plugs, this seems to be the confusing thing at this point. So I could not use a 50A outlet with a 40A breaker?
I have no problem installing a 50A breaker, I would just need to look for a 50A PDU. But that HP unit looked great for the price and I already have a 40A breaker.

You "can" but it won't be up to code.  The most commonly misunderstood thing about the electrical code is .... IT ISN'T ABOUT YOU. Smiley

Often on DIY forums you will here "why can't I do xyz", or "but abc would be safe but the code doesn't allow it", "see if I have xyz and and abc then there is no way overcurrent could happen".  It doesn't matter.   You likely (hopefully) will remember all the crazy non-compliant things you may do but if you sell your house will the next person, or the next person, or some person 150 years from now?  If someone sees a 50 amp connector they are going to assume it is good for 50 amps.  If the circuit breaker locks under load and allows 50 amps to flow through a circuit designed for 40 amps well that is bad.  Sure you can think of all kinds of scenarios to avoid that but that doesn't make it code compliant.

If you see a generic 240V 50amp outlet you have never seen before what is the first thing you assume?  The code is designed to make that assumption valid.

Distribution Panel designed to handle all circuits -> 50 amp circuit breaker -> wiring designed to handle 50 amps -> 50 amp outlet -> 50 amp plug -> 50 amp device.

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I was looking at the picture of the PDU and it has a plug, not hard wired, I dont understand if the outlets dont exist why they would do that...

I could be wrong but I don't think that "PDU" does what you think it does.
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February 14, 2012, 06:24:19 PM
 #24

In regards to the plugs, this seems to be the confusing thing at this point. So I could not use a 50A outlet with a 40A breaker?
I have no problem installing a 50A breaker, I would just need to look for a 50A PDU. But that HP unit looked great for the price and I already have a 40A breaker.

No.  The reason you match plugs/outlets to circuits is so that you don't hook up a 50A device to a 40A circuit.

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February 14, 2012, 07:50:31 PM
 #25

Maybe Instead of trying to figure this out some strange way to do this, I just need to know the answer to this question.

If you had a breaker box with 3 open slots, 2 slots are side by side and you wanted to draw as much power possible and as efficiently as possible from those 3 circuits, how would you do this?

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Gerald Davis


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February 14, 2012, 08:02:22 PM
 #26

Maybe Instead of trying to figure this out some strange way to do this, I just need to know the answer to this question.

If you had a breaker box with 3 open slots, 2 slots are side by side and you wanted to draw as much power possible and as efficiently as possible from those 3 circuits, how would you do this?

You only have 3 open slots (including two slots when you remove the 40A breaker)?


Your choices are:
* Use a 2 pole (2 slot) 30A breaker giving you 7.2KW (although any PDU will be downrated to 24A giving you 5.76KW).

* Find some 40A PDU (I don't think it exists) to use w/ your 40A circuit breaker and some as of yet unknown to me 40A outlet & plug.

* Replace the 40A breaker w/ 50A breaker and use some 50A PDU (be careful 40A & 50A is some serious current).

* Replace 2 adjacent single pole breakers with a "tandem" breaker (puts 2 120V circuits in a single slot) freeing up a second slot, to wire a 2nd 30A breaker.  You need to make sure your panel supports this.

* Drop in a 60A+ double pole breaker and wire to it a subpanel with breakers for all your mining gear.  In the subpanel wire up 2+ 30A double pole breakers.  Alternatively have electrician do this.

* Hire electrician to replace panel with larger panel.
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Gerald Davis


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February 14, 2012, 08:16:26 PM
 #27

So finally found some info on your 40A PDU.  

http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/11041_na/11041_na.HTML#Modular PDU Family Information

Looks like it is designed to be hardwired into the premises.  So you could use 40A breaker to hard wire this 40A PDU (provides) 4 C20 outlets (just google C20) which you could then expand to multiple PDUs with C19 cables as you likely will need more than 4 outlets.  

Never seen that before.  
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February 14, 2012, 09:44:29 PM
 #28

So finally found some info on your 40A PDU.  

http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/11041_na/11041_na.HTML#Modular PDU Family Information

Looks like it is designed to be hardwired into the premises.  So you could use 40A breaker to hard wire this 40A PDU (provides) 4 C20 outlets (just google C20) which you could then expand to multiple PDUs with C19 cables as you likely will need more than 4 outlets.  

Never seen that before.  

That is why I liked the 40A PDU so much because for $70 it includes the main box and the expandable PDUs which have 4 plugs each. So on that I could run 34A x 220? 7480
Also I could use the single open slot and put in a 30A for 3600, also there is already a 15A with one outlet attached that I will be using as well, I suppose I could make it bigger if needed.
The largest single breaker I have is 20A, do breaker boxes have limits, or should I be able to use 30A singles

Now my only concern is surge protection, the only thing I could think of is a whole house protector.


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Gerald Davis


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February 14, 2012, 10:02:29 PM
 #29

So finally found some info on your 40A PDU.  

http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/11041_na/11041_na.HTML#Modular PDU Family Information

Looks like it is designed to be hardwired into the premises.  So you could use 40A breaker to hard wire this 40A PDU (provides) 4 C20 outlets (just google C20) which you could then expand to multiple PDUs with C19 cables as you likely will need more than 4 outlets.  

Never seen that before.  

That is why I liked the 40A PDU so much because for $70 it includes the main box and the expandable PDUs which have 4 plugs each. So on that I could run 34A x 220? 7480


Just watch out the site is very inconsistent.  It shows a model # which is the field terminated wiring (hardwired) but photo shows model w/ international wiring kit.  The description indicates it is core which wouldn't include the expanders but the photo would indicate otherwise.  The document page goes to a completely unrelated piece of equipment. 

Quote
Also I could use the single open slot and put in a 30A for 3600, also there is already a 15A with one outlet attached that I will be using as well, I suppose I could make it bigger if needed. The largest single breaker I have is 20A, do breaker boxes have limits, or should I be able to use 30A singles

There is no limit as long as the circuit can handle it.  You can't just remove a 15A breaker and put in a 20A breaker or 30A breaker.  Everything (cord, plug, outlet, in-wall wiring, breaker) must be rated for that amperage.  You entire distribution panel also has a limit.  Usually 100A but it can be more or less.  It should be listed on the master off breaker.  Increasing that is usually expensive as you need to verify the house mains can handle more and if they can't you are talking a very expensive new run by power company from nearest poor (or distribution transformer) to your house.
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February 15, 2012, 02:10:50 PM
 #30

So, locking CS8265C is not a type of US outlet, it says it uses a 50 amp outlets, plugs and I assume breaker?
Maybe use this: http://www.amazon.com/HUBBELL-CS8264C-Connector-250v-Female/dp/B002FYD0HY
its more expensive than the PDU haha
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February 15, 2012, 02:20:41 PM
 #31

I suppose I need to look for the best price on the hard wired one, or could I just cut the plug off the plug one.
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Gerald Davis


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February 15, 2012, 03:22:01 PM
 #32

So, locking CS8265C is not a type of US outlet, it says it uses a 50 amp outlets, plugs and I assume breaker?
Maybe use this: http://www.amazon.com/HUBBELL-CS8264C-Connector-250v-Female/dp/B002FYD0HY
its more expensive than the PDU haha

It is a California specific plug.  CA felt the NEMA L6 connector wasn't secure enough so they mandated their own connector.  I wish I was kidding.  Technically it could be used anywhere (the electricity doesn't care) however if it is up to your local code is another story. 

If it were me I wouldn't have a problem using the CS8265C. 

CS8265C plug -> CS8265C  outlet -> 6/2 (yeah that's 6 gauge wire, "real fun" to work with) -> 50A breaker.

Also with 50A personally I would want a GFCI.

I think you may find the cost of breakers, wiring, outlets, etc all increase when dealing with 50A simply because they aren't used that much.
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February 15, 2012, 03:54:34 PM
 #33

So, locking CS8265C is not a type of US outlet, it says it uses a 50 amp outlets, plugs and I assume breaker?
Maybe use this: http://www.amazon.com/HUBBELL-CS8264C-Connector-250v-Female/dp/B002FYD0HY
its more expensive than the PDU haha

It is a California specific plug.  CA felt the NEMA L6 connector wasn't secure enough so they mandated their own connector.  I wish I was kidding.  Technically it could be used anywhere (the electricity doesn't care) however if it is up to your local code is another story. 

If it were me I wouldn't have a problem using the CS8265C. 

CS8265C plug -> CS8265C  outlet -> 6/2 (yeah that's 6 gauge wire, "real fun" to work with) -> 50A breaker.

Also with 50A personally I would want a GFCI.

I think you may find the cost of breakers, wiring, outlets, etc all increase when dealing with 50A simply because they aren't used that much.

So maybe I should just change it to a 30AMP, everything would be cheaper and easier, and I would still have about 10k watts which should be sufficient for a while. I think the whole issue was that I already had a 40amp spear breaker ready to go so I wanted to work around it but seems like more work than its worth..
As far as breakers go I notice the prices vary a lot and there are tons to choose from, I will be looking to get a 30-amp double and a 30amp single. Anything special I should look for?
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February 15, 2012, 04:03:03 PM
 #34

You need a 30 amp double, so that it has 2 poles.  Otherwise, you'll have a 30 amp 120.  You really want 30 amp 240.

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Gerald Davis


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February 15, 2012, 04:17:04 PM
 #35

As far as breakers go I notice the prices vary a lot and there are tons to choose from, I will be looking to get a 30-amp double and a 30amp single. Anything special I should look for?

As indicated above you need a double pole for 240V, single pole is for 120V.
You need to get breaker that is compatible w/ your panel.  Try reading the inside cover of panel for manufacturer info.

GFCI breaker is safer if their is equipment malfuction and the PDU or ATX PSU becomes energized but they cost more.
Tandem is for putting to independent 120V circuits in one slot so don't get that.
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