No news on CNN about air bombing on Lugansk.

[bryant.coleman]

CNN report about Airstrike on Lugansk.

http://vk.com/video211957138_168749883

Quite surprising. I am watching an unbiased video from the CNN after ages. 

The CNN is admitting that 8 civilians (including 5 women) were dead during the attack, and they are further saying that the Kiev propaganda that the rebels caused the attack is 100% wrong.

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[QuestionAuthority]

I'm not sure how this changes my upcoming trip to Vegas. I saw someone mentioned air conditioners. Are the room air conditioners not working? Are the casinos out of whiskey?

This is the view of most Americans and why CNN doesn't cover every detail of world news. Greedy American pigs just don't give a shit about suffering in the rest of the world. America protects women and children from abuse because it's so horrible but what is the first thing the American soldiers do when they attack another country? They start raping and killing the women and children. I'm surprised the Vietnamese/Laotians/Cambodians and Thai aren't still sending suicide bombers to America!

Bull shit. The government-media complex may not care but most Americans abhor violence as much as anyone.

Our soldiers don't "hit the ground raping" either. Our government makes stupid decisions but generally speaking our soldiers follow their inherently stupid orders and conduct themselves as well as anyone else.

There are always bad actors in any group, to judge them all by a few bad actors is short sighted and ignorant. To acknowledge that fact though would require you to rethink your anti American prejudice and we both know that irrational prejudice doesn't require thought. 

I served in Vietnam. You're wrong. We were horrible and abusive. You need to open a history book. Solders do things they would never think of doing back home. If your beloved country is so wonderful why do we incarcerate more citizens than any other country in the world?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/13/incarceration-rate-per-capita_n_3745291.html

U.S. soldiers raped Okinawan women during the Battle of Okinawa in 1945.

Based on several years of research, Okinawan historian Oshiro Masayasu (former director of the Okinawa Prefectural Historical Archives) writes:
Soon after the U.S. Marines landed, all the women of a village on Motobu Peninsula fell into the hands of American soldiers. At the time, there were only women, children, and old people in the village, as all the young men had been mobilized for the war. Soon after landing, the Marines "mopped up" the entire village, but found no signs of Japanese forces. Taking advantage of the situation, they started "hunting for women" in broad daylight, and women who were hiding in the village or nearby air raid shelters were dragged out one after another.

There were also 1,336 reported rapes during the first 10 days of the occupation of Kanagawa prefecture after the Japanese surrender.

Secret wartime files made public only in 2006 reveal that American GIs committed 400 sexual offences in Europe, including 126 rapes in England, between 1942 and 1945. A study by Robert J. Lilly estimates that a total of 14,000 civilian women in England, France and Germany were raped by American GIs during World War II. It is estimated that there were around 3,500 rapes by American servicemen in France between June 1944 and the end of the war and one historian has claimed that sexual violence against women in liberated France was common.

There were rapes and sexual atrocities conducted almost continuously by servicemen during the Vietnam war. The worst of which, the My Lai Massacre was the mass murder of 347 to 504 unarmed citizens in South Vietnam, almost entirely civilians, most of them women and children, conducted by U.S. Army forces on 16 March 1968. Some of the victims were raped, beaten, tortured, or maimed, and some of the bodies were found mutilated. The massacre took place in the hamlets of Mỹ Lai and My Khe of Sơn Mỹ village during the Vietnam War.

An incident took place in a village in the Chahar Bolak district of Afghanistan’s Balkh Province where US special forces carried out house-to-house searches.
During the operation, the troopers separated the men and women of about 15 families and raped the women.

Male prisoners of war were subject to rape and sexual violence. Sexual violence against male prisoners of war gained wide publicity after graphic photos documented such abuses on male Iraqi prisoners by US guards at Abu Ghraib prison, Iraq. Nude prisoners were forced to humiliate themselves.

Military police personnel of the United States Army and the Central Intelligence Agency raped Iraqi civilians in torture cells.

Accused of the rape of a 13-year old Iraqi girl, soldier Steve Dale Green officially stated that: "I didn't think of the Iraqis as human." under oath when questioned why he killed the child's family before raping and killing her. There are other charges of U.S. soldiers taking turns in raping 14-year old girls that are pending because of government secrecy.

[bryant.coleman]

It doesn't matter whether the CNBC and BBC want to hide the atrocities. The European media is reporting them without any fear of the CIA and NATO.

http://www.ansa.it/sito/notizie/cronaca/2014/06/02/ucraina-ribelli-lugansk-usate-bombe-a-grappolo_11dad8a0-6269-42fc-81fe-8f35e7549a84.html

I served in Vietnam. You're wrong. We were horrible and abusive. You need to open a history book. Solders do things they would never think of doing back home. If your beloved country is so wonderful why do we incarcerate more citizens than any other country in the world?

History is usually written by the winning side. So you won't find much about the atrocities.

[Kluge]

Would someone following this (and Ukraine situation in general) mind giving me a (non-video) brief? The death toll looks pretty severe from RT, but it's extraordinary compared to other reported numbers.

My hazy understanding so far: pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine want to break away and have -ed the Ukrainian government. Ukraine responded to by killing hundreds of their own citizens in a bombing run which was primarily targeting . US says separatists are neo-Nazi terrorists backed by Russia. Russia says Ukraine is US pawn backed solely to financially and militarily harm and threaten Russian ambitions to .

[bryant.coleman]

Would someone following this (and Ukraine situation in general) mind giving me a (non-video) brief? The death toll looks pretty severe from RT, but it's extraordinary compared to other reported numbers.

Western media outlets have no reporters in the Donbass. RT is having 2-3 reporters in the major cities (Donetsk, Lugansk.etc), but none in the front-line areas (Krasnyi Liman, Slavyansk, Kramatorsk.etc). The death toll was given by reporters of Lifenews, who were present in the front-line areas.

My hazy understanding so far: pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine want to break away and have -ed the Ukrainian government.

At least initially, the main rebel demand was more autonomy and federalization. They were not aiming to secede from Ukraine.

Ukraine responded to by killing hundreds of their own citizens in a bombing run which was primarily targeting .

Most of the residential areas were targeted during the artillery shelling. Bombing by fighter jets was used only once (in Lugansk). The Ukrainian army justifies this, saying that the rebel fighters have retreated to the residential areas.

US says separatists are neo-Nazi terrorists backed by Russia. Russia says Ukraine is US pawn backed solely to financially and militarily harm and threaten Russian ambitions to .

US is accusing Russia of arming the separatists. Russia is accusing the US-backed president of ethnic cleansing.

[Kluge]

Thank you. What did these possibly-anti-Ukrainian-gov't discontented and alienated malefactors (... for lack of a better generalization) do to the Ukrainian government to evoke this response?

-And which ethnicities are we talking about? Talk to me like I'm an American, please.

[bryant.coleman]

Thank you. What did these possibly-anti-Ukrainian-gov't discontented and alienated malefactors (... for lack of a better generalization) do to the Ukrainian government to evoke this response?

The pro-federalization protesters in the East adopted the same methodology, which was used by the pro-European protesters during the Kiev protests. They occupied the administration buildings and demanded a referendum on autonomy.

-And which ethnicities are we talking about? Talk to me like I'm an American, please.

In the Donbass region, somewhere around 70% of the population is ethnic Ukrainian, while some 25% is Russian. There is a significant Greek minority, mostly concentrated around Mariupol. Other minorities are too small to speak of. There is a lot of inter-ethnic marriage, so talking about the ethnic composition is not that useful. 

But the ethnic Ukrainians of the East are very different from the ethnic Ukrainians of the West. Everything is different. From language to religion. So it is not surprising that their political preferences are quite opposite to each other.

[Nemo1024]

Thank you. What did these possibly-anti-Ukrainian-gov't discontented and alienated malefactors (... for lack of a better generalization) do to the Ukrainian government to evoke this response?

-And which ethnicities are we talking about? Talk to me like I'm an American, please.

Nothing wrong with being an American person - it's American politicians and media that most Russians have gripes with.

To add to what Bryant said, I think a short historic trip 100 years back is in order. As with most conflicts around the worlds, this one didn't just spring out of thin air, it has historic roots and had been building up.

I first want you to bear with me and take a look at the following page, which is in Russian. Look at the maps, which show the division in use of Russian language in the East vs. Ukrainian in the West, and the political preferences from the previous elections - Yanukovich had the votes of the East, Yushenko - of the West:

http://yablor.ru/blogs/dve-ukraini/3638493

Now, let's go 100 years back to a time shortly before the Revolution on 1917 and take a look at the same region, which was part of the Russian Empire. By that time, the county of Novorossia, was divided into three smaller counties, but their demographic composition didn't change. They were populated by Russians and Russian-speaking people, like Cossacks.

Again, here are two Russian Wikipedia sites, that I want you to take a look at for the sake of the maps:
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CD%EE%E2%EE%F0%EE%F1%F1%E8%E9%F1%EA%E0%FF_%E3%F3%E1%E5%F0%ED%E8%FF
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%95%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B3%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F

After the Revolution, Lenin had a "brilliant" idea of transferring what was Novorossia to that what was to become Ukraine. After a short ("only" 6 years) civil war and some atrocities committed by Petljura bands (who is now a national hero of Western Ukraine), everything quited down and people were mostly going about their business, continuing to speak their language, and generally not feeling very much Ukrainian. But there was no pressure.

A shake-up came during WWII, when another the-now Western-Ukrainian national Hero, Bandera, rose to power, forming troops for German's SS and exterminating all who didn't agree with him, which included Russians, Jews, Poles, much like Petljura did before him.

After WWII the remnants of Bandera bands were ravaging in Ukraine well into 1950s, but then, all became well again, and people went about their business.

After the fall of USSR, someone in the young Ukriane had a "brilliant" idea that Ukraine needs a stronger feel of national unity and identity, and that it also needs to distance itself from the Soviet past. This resulted in strong prosecution of the people of South-East on the language front, and the revival of something anti-Soviet as the new national hero - Bandera. This didn't sit well with people of the East, but was pushed on them anyway, so the pressure was building up. The central and Western regions on the other hand got really taken by the idea. For the American: think Southern states and Northern states during your Civil war.

Remember that less than 100 years passed since the regions were separated from Russia, and there hasn't even been a full generation shift. People still identify themselves strongly with Russia, but during the Soviet times, people just didn't feel that they suddenly ended up in foreign parts.

In the present, you remember that Yanukovich had the support of the South-Eastern regions. During that time the regions had managed to regain some of their rights, like the right to speak the language of the majority. When he was removed by force and replaced by the coup government, the first thing that government did, was to revoke the Constitution, replacing it with a previous version, effectively prohibiting use of Russian language in the regions where you can live for weeks without hearing a word of Ukrainian. For an American: Think that the next president is a Latin American, and as Us already has a large Spanish-speaking part, he imposes a decree that Americans are only allowed to speak Spanish.

This was not seen as a good omen, so, as Briant noted, the protests started, using the same strategy as the Maidan protests in Kiev that lead to the coup government's ascent to power. However, this time, the protesters were labelled as "terrorists" and "separatists", while the same type of protesters in Kiev were "freedom and democracy fighters". The initial protests were not separatist, however. The demands were: federalisation of Ukraine and greater self-governance to the regions. For the Americans: you already have that in the form of the states. This was ridiculed by the coup government, the US and Europe as an impossible form of state (which is a hypocrisy, since many European countries, as well as US are federations).

They were trying to push the genie back into the bottle. But the harder you push, the harder they fight back.

[247crypto]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwWsLrn7njU

[s1lverbox]

reserved

[Kluge]

Thanks, Nemo.

What are the strategic reasons for the US/EU not wanting Russia to take back areas not fully assimilating to what the Ukraine government seems to be considering its culture while the current Ukrainian government seems Hell-bent on maintaining unity with people they appear hostile toward and who reciprocate those feelings? That question is, of course, assuming that reconciliation and moving toward federalism is no longer a viable option (though an alternate could just be allowing East Ukraine to form an independent nation). Is the US/EU willing to maintain civil conflict and political instability in Ukraine just to maintain a buffer between Russia and "the West," or are there other reasons the US/EU is intervening?

I'm also curious what Lenin's intent was in pushing "New Russia" into Ukraine.

[bryant.coleman]

What are the strategic reasons for the US/EU not wanting Russia to take back areas not fully assimilating to what the Ukraine government seems to be considering its culture while the current Ukrainian government seems Hell-bent on maintaining unity with people they appear hostile toward and who reciprocate those feelings?

Eastern Ukraine contains almost all the heavy industries, factories, and coal mines of Ukraine. It is the East which is subsidizing the agriculture and other activities of the West. Also, a lot of Western Ukrainians work in the metal factories of the East.

[247crypto]

I'm also curious what Lenin's intent was in pushing "New Russia" into Ukraine.

Deep hate to Russians.

[Kluge]

What are the strategic reasons for the US/EU not wanting Russia to take back areas not fully assimilating to what the Ukraine government seems to be considering its culture while the current Ukrainian government seems Hell-bent on maintaining unity with people they appear hostile toward and who reciprocate those feelings?

Eastern Ukraine contains almost all the heavy industries, factories, and coal mines of Ukraine. It is the East which is subsidizing the agriculture and other activities of the West. Also, a lot of Western Ukrainians work in the metal factories of the East.

I can get that, but why does the EU/US care about trying to force them to stay together in a relationship they don't seem interested in? Ukrainian coal is mostly consumed domestically (having a coal deposit is more-or-less worthless at current market prices, and they don't extract a particularly significant amount, anyway), and it looks like they're trying to legislate domestic consumption of as much coal as possible so they don't rely on foreign energy as much (and maybe just to subsidize the mining sector). It doesn't look seem like there could be any significant interest in their resources, and there's clearly no humanitarian goal for the EU/US, so what are they looking for in opposing Russia (and/or Ukranian federalists/separatists/rebels/whatever) on this?

[bryant.coleman]

I can get that, but why does the EU/US care about trying to force them to stay together in a relationship they don't seem interested in?

1. Without the South-East, Ukraine will be a landlocked country, without any sea coast.
2. Without the South-East, the Russian-Ukrainian border will be much reduced, and the NATO won't be able to place their missiles on the Russian border.
3. Without the tax money from the East, Ukraine will go bankrupt.

[Kluge]

I can get that, but why does the EU/US care about trying to force them to stay together in a relationship they don't seem interested in?

1. Without the South-East, Ukraine will be a landlocked country, without any sea coast.
2. Without the South-East, the Russian-Ukrainian border will be much reduced, and the NATO won't be able to place their missiles on the Russian border.
3. Without the tax money from the East, Ukraine will go bankrupt.

Got it. Thanks! This place is superior to Wikipedia any day. 

[QuestionAuthority]

I can get that, but why does the EU/US care about trying to force them to stay together in a relationship they don't seem interested in?

1. Without the South-East, Ukraine will be a landlocked country, without any sea coast.
2. Without the South-East, the Russian-Ukrainian border will be much reduced, and the NATO won't be able to place their missiles on the Russian border.
3. Without the tax money from the East, Ukraine will go bankrupt.

Care to guess the outcome? What's really going to come out of this?

[bryant.coleman]

Care to guess the outcome? What's really going to come out of this?

Putin is indifferent to the warfare being waged in the Donbass region, and the Ukrainian military is slowly progressing by taking over the smaller villages and towns. The battle may be over in a month or so.

[QuestionAuthority]

Care to guess the outcome? What's really going to come out of this?

Putin is indifferent to the warfare being waged in the Donbass region, and the Ukrainian military is slowly progressing by taking over the smaller villages and towns. The battle may be over in a month or so.

Interesting, thanks.

[Nemo1024]

Adding to what Bryant said:
The option of federalisation is not off the table yet, as well as the option of stopping the fighting. In yesterday's press conference in France (http://rt.com/news/163676-putin-ukraine-french-us/) Putin gave an interesting answer:


I don't think Putin wants to integrate Novorossia into Russia, as it would just mean moving the East/West border. He'd be more interested in having a friendly, or at least, neutral buffer state with no NATO bases on its soil. Think Belarus.

As for the why Western Ukraine fights for the Eastern territories, add to the Bryant's list deposits of shale gas, for development of which Shell already has a contract with Ukraine:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/polish-death-squads-fighting-in-ukraine-cia-covert-operation/5384210

The interesting bit is in the middle:

One of the potential shale gas fields for which development rights were given to Burisma Holdings is the Yuzivska shale field. Besides Slavyansk and part of neighboring Kramatorsk, with a population of 160,000 people, the tract given to Shell includes the cities of Krasny Luch and Svyatogorsk in the Donetsk region, as well as Balakeya and Izyum in the neighboring Kharkov region. And the shale gas extraction contract is written such that the Ukrainian government is obligated to forcibly take property away from its lawful owners if Shell states that it plans to drill on those lands. The vicinity of Slavyansk has been selected as the location for the drilling of the first gas wells…

And this map, showing the deposits:

I don't know what the outcome would be. It all depends on what instructions Poroshenko gets after the 7th of June. One thing is clear, Russia has so far refused to take the bait and send in its troops, so I don't see that happening unless some extraordinary atrocities start being committed. And even then, Russia would try first to push through a UN resolution to send in a peacekeeping contingent to stay on the right side of the international law (or what ever is left of it by now).