Evaluating Havelock securities performances

[aoshea]

I calculated the performance of some securities on havelock. I started with the first 7 symbols listed. Performance was determined by the open price on the first trading day (on havelock) compared to the current share price accounting for dividends paid. I did not calculate reinvesting divs, simply holding them. All values represent buying and holding with no trading. 100% ROI represents break even point.

7C: -.002 btc per share (74% ROI)
ALC: -.05 btc per share (64% ROI)
AM1: -4.07 btc per share (10% ROI)
B.MINE: -.0829 btc per share (51% ROI)
B.SELL: .0655 btc per share (165% ROI)
CBTC: -.0000968 btc per share (46% ROI)
CFIG: -.064 btc per share (57% ROI)

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[OgNasty]

This is cool.  Would be great if you could tie in the USD price.  Some of those securities may have IPO'd at $1,050 per BTC, so it would have been much easier to ROI in BTC for them, as opposed to the others that IPO'd at a lower BTC exchange rate.  It's somewhat important since the expenses for these operations are paid in USD and the community values most purchases in USD.  Would be great to see ROI rates based on the USD return to see the true performance of these businesses as opposed to predominantly measuring the timing of their IPO.

[MrWDunne]

This is cool.  Would be great if you could tie in the USD price.  Some of those securities may have IPO'd at $1,050 per BTC, so it would have been much easier to ROI in BTC for them, as opposed to the others that IPO'd at a lower BTC exchange rate.  It's somewhat important since the expenses for these operations are paid in USD and the community values most purchases in USD.  Would be great to see ROI rates based on the USD return to see the true performance of these businesses as opposed to predominantly measuring the timing of their IPO.

That said, a lot of the companies' business is operated entirely in bitcoin. So the exchange rate shouldn't have much of an impact

[OgNasty]

So the exchange rate shouldn't have much of an impact

You must be new here.   

[twentyseventy]

I calculated the performance of some securities on havelock. I started with the first 7 symbols listed. Performance was determined by the open price on the first trading day (on havelock) compared to the current share price accounting for dividends paid. I did not calculate reinvesting divs, simply holding them. All values represent buying and holding with no trading. 100% ROI represents break even point.

7C: -.002 btc per share (74% ROI)
ALC: -.05 btc per share (64% ROI)
AM1: -4.07 btc per share (10% ROI)
B.MINE: -.0829 btc per share (51% ROI)
B.SELL: .0655 btc per share (165% ROI)
CBTC: -.0000968 btc per share (46% ROI)
CFIG: -.064 btc per share (57% ROI)

Hey, I do want to caution you regarding measuring MINE and SELL's performance on an 'ROI' basis - do note that these are part of a three-pronged Derivative and not a stock or bond.

They will decrease in value over the long term, and using Havelock's Yield or this method of ROI calculation will give you very skewed results. It's a fun product to trade, but do be careful not to treat it like a normal 'investment' like CFIG, CBTC, or PETA.

[AcoinL.L.C]

This is cool.  Would be great if you could tie in the USD price.  Some of those securities may have IPO'd at $1,050 per BTC, so it would have been much easier to ROI in BTC for them, as opposed to the others that IPO'd at a lower BTC exchange rate.  It's somewhat important since the expenses for these operations are paid in USD and the community values most purchases in USD.  Would be great to see ROI rates based on the USD return to see the true performance of these businesses as opposed to predominantly measuring the timing of their IPO.

That said, a lot of the companies' business is operated entirely in bitcoin. So the exchange rate shouldn't have much of an impact

hahahahahaha

People charge / spend in fiat rates. If a BTC costs $1200, they are going to get $1200 of product for that 1 BTC. If BTC is $400, they will spend 3 BTC for $1200 of products. Revenue BTC wise goes down a LOT when BTC is worth more than usual.

If a company IPO's at 10 cents a share (Fiat wise), but now they are worth 15 cents a share (but the BTC value went down), that is a 150% value improvement in Fiat but a negative gain BTC wise, which is why you should invest BTC only when BTC is on the upswing (ideally) as it will nearly always outperform any BTC derived shares

[NotLambchop]

Havelock Securities At A Glance: The SRS BZNZ Edition

[Phildo]

This is cool.  Would be great if you could tie in the USD price.  Some of those securities may have IPO'd at $1,050 per BTC, so it would have been much easier to ROI in BTC for them, as opposed to the others that IPO'd at a lower BTC exchange rate.  It's somewhat important since the expenses for these operations are paid in USD and the community values most purchases in USD.  Would be great to see ROI rates based on the USD return to see the true performance of these businesses as opposed to predominantly measuring the timing of their IPO.

That said, a lot of the companies' business is operated entirely in bitcoin. So the exchange rate shouldn't have much of an impact

that's not why you shouldn't look at exchange rate, you shouldn't look at exchange rate because if you only profit in dollars, but lost bitcoins, you could have made much more money by literally doing nothing, so it was a bad investment.

If you give someone 1 bitcoin that you paid 300 dollars for and they give you back .5 bitcoin when the price is 1,000, yes, you profited $200, good for you, but you could have profited 700 if you literally did nothing.

Doing nothing is not something hard, it's not saying that you should doing something hard or impossible. If you want a great investment take 10,000 dollars, go to vegas, beat 8,000 other people in a poker tournament and turn your 10k in to 10m over the course of the summer. that's a great roi, but very hard to impossible to do. Holding onto your bitcoins is not as hard or impossible as something like that.

[NotLambchop]

^The reason OGNasty favors that nonsense--he likes to make his "fans" believe they're making money as they lose it

As promised, I compiled all of the publicly available information dating back to the GLBSE days.  All statistics are averages based off of the actual seat trades using the daily USD conversion rates.
...



...

TL;DR:  He's not stupid, just banking on the stupidity of others.

[OgNasty]

^The reason OGNasty favors that nonsense--he likes to make his "fans" believe they're making money as they lose it

Tell me again what "money" that you're referring to?  I'm sure the pursuers of your legal case would be interested in you further explaining yourself.

All I did was post public accounting numbers with added historical conversions so people could see realistically what has been earned/lost, and not just a result of the exchange rate from when invested until now.  I know you like to push your agenda, but it's tired and your justifications that someone lost "money" when a $1.54 investment turned into >$18 while also paying ~$4 in distributions simply displays a detachment from reality, which shouldn't be surprising to anyone who has any familiarity with your delusions of grandeur.

Try to explain your accounting exclusively in Bitcoin over a period of time to any real life businessman and you will be ridiculed for life (gold, real estate, bread, hookers, all would be better measures of value over time than Bitcoin).  You know this, so obviously you are just an emotional sad little mad who has backed himself into a corner and is lashing out anyone willing to point it out.  You're aiming at the wrong place though, which is why I assume you deleted your sad little post in my thread before being attacked for being an idiot.  NastyFans is an awesome, transparent organization that only does good for the community.  You on the other hand, are a cancerous troll to these forums, and it is obvious.

[NotLambchop]

...
Try to explain your accounting exclusively in Bitcoin over a period of time to any real life businessman and you will be ridiculed for life ...

How about this:

If I give you 1 BTC exactly a year ago, I get substantially fewer dollars than if I kept that 1 BTC in a paper wallet?  Is that clear enough? 

[OgNasty]

...
Try to explain your accounting exclusively in Bitcoin over a period of time to any real life businessman and you will be ridiculed for life ...

How about this:

If I give you 1 BTC exactly a year ago, I get substantially fewer dollars than if I kept that 1 BTC in a paper wallet?  Is that clear enough? 

So if I gave you back more dollars, would you have earned money?

[NotLambchop]

^

If giving you my coin cost me dollars (as opposed to simply keeping my coin), of course I lost money by giving it to you.  This is basic.

[OgNasty]

...
Try to explain your accounting exclusively in Bitcoin over a period of time to any real life businessman and you will be ridiculed for life ...

How about this:

If I give you 1 BTC exactly a year ago, I get substantially fewer dollars than if I kept that 1 BTC in a paper wallet?  Is that clear enough?  

So if I gave you back more dollars, would you have earned money?

If giving you my coin got me cost me dollars (as opposed to simply keeping my coin), of course I lost money by giving it to you.  This is basic.

Me no thinks you understand transfer protocol very well.  Let me splain...



If someone uses a transfer protocol to send $5, then gets back $20 using the same transfer protocol, that is calling making money.  What you are doing is moving 0's and 1's around and claiming that you are making or losing fortunes...  Let me make this perfectly clear to you...  When making an investment in Bitcoin, cheese, goats, gold, intellectual property, don't count your chickens before they hatch.  You didn't make or lose money until you realized that gain or loss by moving back into dollars, hence why you are taxed at that time and not as your investment is performing.  You're screaming that everyone who has sold a goat has lost a fortune because the price of goats has gone up so much, which is not true.  Nobody has ever lost a fortune from selling a goat.

[NotLambchop]

No need to understand the transfer protocol.  I give you 10 coins, I get one back.  That's a loss--regardless of whether Bitcoin price has risen or fell.
But hey, if your "fans" are happy with your creative accounting, gg.
Thanks for the reminding to never underestimate the stupidity of others  

[OgNasty]

your creative accounting

You mean the same accounting that is used by every single financial regulatory agency in the world?

Thanks for the reminding to never underestimate the stupidity of others 

Be careful, ignorance is bliss.  Don't put down your kool-aid.

[NotLambchop]

your creative accounting

You mean the same accounting that is used by every single financial regulatory agency in the world?
...

Nah, I mean taking 10 coins from your suckers, returning one, and telling them they made profit

[kako_number3]

^The reason OGNasty favors that nonsense--he likes to make his "fans" believe they're making money as they lose it

Tell me again what "money" that you're referring to?  I'm sure the pursuers of your legal case would be interested in you further explaining yourself.

All I did was post public accounting numbers with added historical conversions so people could see realistically what has been earned/lost, and not just a result of the exchange rate from when invested until now.  I know you like to push your agenda, but it's tired and your justifications that someone lost "money" when a $1.54 investment turned into >$18 while also paying ~$4 in distributions simply displays a detachment from reality, which shouldn't be surprising to anyone who has any familiarity with your delusions of grandeur.

Try to explain your accounting exclusively in Bitcoin over a period of time to any real life businessman and you will be ridiculed for life (gold, real estate, bread, hookers, all would be better measures of value over time than Bitcoin).  You know this, so obviously you are just an emotional sad little mad who has backed himself into a corner and is lashing out anyone willing to point it out.  You're aiming at the wrong place though, which is why I assume you deleted your sad little post in my thread before being attacked for being an idiot.  NastyFans is an awesome, transparent organization that only does good for the community.  You on the other hand, are a cancerous troll to these forums, and it is obvious.

Dude, let me refresh your mind, you lost 65% of the value of your assetclub and you still have the balls to come up 'look we are profitable' reasoning. Get fucking lost you imbecile.

Yes investorsparty-goers, you would be better off if OgNasty spent half of your money shooting heroin and returning the other half to you.

Also, newsflash, I can call this rock that I am about to throw a 'club', yet it wont feel like one when it hits your face.

[OgNasty]

I've proven you wrong so many times now, it is impossible to claim ignorance at this point.  Thus, anyone who chooses to believe that spending $1 and getting back $20 is losing money can take whatever pleasure from that misbelief they want.  I would hate to rob you of that.

[kako_number3]

Thus, anyone who chooses to believe that spending 1B and getting back 0.2B is losing money can take whatever pleasure from that misbelief they want.  I would hate to rob you of that.

Fixed it for you.

NotLambchop: hint, sekrit treasure awaits you in the logs.

[RiverBoatBTC]

I've proven you wrong so many times now, it is impossible to claim ignorance at this point.  Thus, anyone who chooses to believe that spending $1 and getting back $20 is losing money can take whatever pleasure from that misbelief they want.  I would hate to rob you of that.

But did they give you dollars or bitcoins? If I gave you 1 bitcoin and got back 20 cool, but If I gave you 20 and your gave me 1 not cool.

Unless you said all BTC are tied to USD at the time they gave you the coins.

[OgNasty]

I've proven you wrong so many times now, it is impossible to claim ignorance at this point.  Thus, anyone who chooses to believe that spending $1 and getting back $20 is losing money can take whatever pleasure from that misbelief they want.  I would hate to rob you of that.

But did they give you dollars or bitcoins? If I gave you 1 bitcoin and got back 20 cool, but If I gave you 20 and your gave me 1 not cool.

Unless you said all BTC are tied to USD at the time they gave you the coins.

They didn't give me anything.  I don't get a salary and didn't take any cut of the BTC that was raised from the sale of the Nasty Mining IPO.  I am a regular NastyFans seat holder the same as everyone else.  They gave Nasty Mining funds to purchase mining equipment, which was done in USD, as is everything when you transfer BTC from one place to another...  Thinking you spend BTC (whether that be on a fanclub membership or honey from Bees Brothers) and you could get a refund at that BTC rate later is incorrect, thus the valuation in your mind will be incorrect any time the BTC rate changes.  Was Bitcoin at the time a better investment than the Nasty Mining IPO?  Yes.  Did IPO investors lose any money in NastyFans?  No.

[RiverBoatBTC]

I've proven you wrong so many times now, it is impossible to claim ignorance at this point.  Thus, anyone who chooses to believe that spending $1 and getting back $20 is losing money can take whatever pleasure from that misbelief they want.  I would hate to rob you of that.

But did they give you dollars or bitcoins? If I gave you 1 bitcoin and got back 20 cool, but If I gave you 20 and your gave me 1 not cool.

Unless you said all BTC are tied to USD at the time they gave you the coins.

They didn't give me anything.  I don't get a salary and didn't take any cut of the BTC that was raised from the sale of the Nasty Mining IPO.  I am a regular NastyFans seat holder the same as everyone else.  They gave Nasty Mining funds to purchase mining equipment, which was done in USD, as is everything when you transfer BTC from one place to another...  Thinking you spend BTC (whether that be on a fanclub membership or honey from Bees Brothers) and you could get a refund at that BTC rate later is incorrect, thus the valuation in your mind will be incorrect any time the BTC rate changes.  Was Bitcoin at the time a better investment than the Nasty Mining IPO?  Yes.  Did IPO investors lose any money in NastyFans?  No.

I do not agree, if I pay you one way I want that payment back the exact same way. If I paid you with a CC I want the money back on my CC, not to western union me pesos because that is the currency YOU use. If you buy something online in a different country the refund you the exact same currencys back.. it does not matter if it has lost or gained value. Can you understand that, Gold is gold no matter the value, just like BTC is BTC.

[OgNasty]

I do not agree, if I pay you one way I want that payment back the exact same way. If I paid you with a CC I want the money back on my CC, not to western union me pesos because that is the currency YOU use. If you buy something online in a different country the refund you the exact same currencys back.. it does not matter if it has lost or gained value. Can you understand that, Gold is gold no matter the value, just like BTC is BTC.

I would like to hire you as my lawyer to get all the funds back that were spent on currently undelivered mining equipment.

Wait, you mean we have no case?  You mean your entire thinking is incorrect and wouldn't be recognized by any court, jury, or regulator?  Oh well, it doesn't hurt to dream.  

I did get a chuckle out of you saying that if you paid for goods sold in Japan with USD, that you would get your USD refunded back regardless of what the USD/Yen exchange rate was.  It highlights your ignorance wonderfully.

[IPO Magic]

@RiverBoatBTC:  BTC is the unit of account here, that's not even up for debate.  When I invest dollars, I count my profit in dollars, not bitcoins.  When I invest bitcoin, i count it in bitcoin, not dollars.  Basic stuff.

Further, if my understanding is correct, the "dividends" come from mining bitcoin.  If bitcoin price tanks instead of climbing, his "fans" would not suddenly get higher divs, so "btc is just a transport layer for $$$ bit falls flat

@OgNasty:  Talking about courts and regulations while peddling unregistered securities is a bit silly, no?  (lol@the wording on your site, almost as gud as Slaughter's "AMC is a virtual identity totally owned by the Active Mining Corporation (Belize) that represents both itself and its profits.") 

[RiverBoatBTC]

I do not agree, if I pay you one way I want that payment back the exact same way. If I paid you with a CC I want the money back on my CC, not to western union me pesos because that is the currency YOU use. If you buy something online in a different country the refund you the exact same currencys back.. it does not matter if it has lost or gained value. Can you understand that, Gold is gold no matter the value, just like BTC is BTC.

I would like to hire you as my lawyer to get all the funds back that were spent on currently undelivered mining equipment.

Wait, you mean we have no case?  You mean your entire thinking is incorrect and wouldn't be recognized by any court, jury, or regulator?  Oh well, it doesn't hurt to dream.  

Maybe your just going about it the wrong way, scratch this Club shit out and form a legal entity known as a trust. The trust can then sue the mining manufactures, securities issue solved. How do I know this works its common practice and it in fact is what they are doing to sue BFL. Its not hard to prove a company negligent and show they have caused you financial losses due to that. If that shit with BFL backdooring miners is true watch them get sued into thin air.

[OgNasty]

How do I know this works its common practice and it in fact is what they are doing to sue BFL.

Nobody has successfully won a case like this.  You're now stating that your valuation beliefs are based on the fundamentals of frivolous lawsuits.

[RiverBoatBTC]

How do I know this works its common practice and it in fact is what they are doing to sue BFL.

Nobody has successfully won a case like this.  You're now stating that your valuation beliefs are based on the fundamentals of frivolous lawsuits.

frivolous... are you a BFL koolaid kid? If so I can see why you see things the way you do. Anyone who sticks up or believes BFL is not facked is just as facked in the head.

[OgNasty]

@RiverBoatBTC:  BTC is the unit of account here, that's not even up for debate.  When I invest dollars, I count my profit in dollars, not bitcoins.  When I invest bitcoin, i count it in bitcoin, not dollars.  Basic stuff.

Bitcoin is not the unit of account, as you are not held accountable for that unit by anyone.  If you lost BTC, but your BTC investment makes you a ton of money, you cannot simply claim you didn't make money.  Therefore, I choose to use the financial standards widely accepted around the globe as an account of measure.  Not only because it's obviously the correct way to do it, or because it is the responsible way to give numbers to members who choose to pay taxes based on the misbelief we aren't just allocating donations, but because it's the best way to show in real terms how an entity has performed over time.

Further, if my understanding is correct, the "dividends" come from mining bitcoin.  If bitcoin price tanks instead of climbing, his "fans" would not suddenly get higher divs, so "btc is just a transport layer for $$$ bit falls flat

Your understanding is incorrect.  NastyFans distributions come from donations.  These donations can come from any number of sources, but one thing is for sure, the amount donated has been highly tied to the USD exchange rate historically.  I think people definitely consider the exchange rate when making a donation, or any time they transfer BTC.

@OgNasty:  Talking about courts and regulations while peddling unregistered securities is a bit silly, no?  (lol@the wording on your site, almost as gud as Slaughter's "AMC is a virtual identity totally owned by the Active Mining Corporation (Belize) that represents both itself and its profits.")  

I am not peddling unregistered securities.  I didn't create NastyFans.  I don't run NastyFans.

[IPO Magic]

Lawl, "donations"  Thank your lucky stars you're just an irrelevant muppet, uninteresting even to the baby TLAs.  As I said, u got all the verve and sophistication of Kenneth Slaughter, but without the common sense.

[RiverBoatBTC]

Do you still tie your dollars to gold or silver? Cause that what the value of that paper is and is the proper unit of account.

Bitcoin = Dollar = Gold & Silver.

Anyone want to run the numbers on that to see if it comes up as a loss or a gain?


Who watches the mining equipment?

[kako_number3]

@RiverBoatBTC:  BTC is the unit of account here, that's not even up for debate.  When I invest dollars, I count my profit in dollars, not bitcoins.  When I invest bitcoin, i count it in bitcoin, not dollars.  Basic stuff.

Bitcoin is not the unit of account, as you are not held accountable for that unit by anyone.  If you lost BTC, but your BTC investment makes you a ton of money, you cannot simply claim you didn't make money.  Therefore, I choose to use the financial standards widely accepted around the globe as an account of measure.  Not only because it's obviously the correct way to do it, or because it is the responsible way to give numbers to members who choose to pay taxes based on the misbelief we aren't just allocating donations, but because it's the best way to show in real terms how an entity has performed over time.

Further, if my understanding is correct, the "dividends" come from mining bitcoin.  If bitcoin price tanks instead of climbing, his "fans" would not suddenly get higher divs, so "btc is just a transport layer for $$$ bit falls flat

Your understanding is incorrect.  NastyFans distributions come from donations.  These donations can come from any number of sources, but one thing is for sure, the amount donated has been highly tied to the USD exchange rate historically.  I think people definitely consider the exchange rate when making a donation, or any time they transfer BTC.

@OgNasty:  Talking about courts and regulations while peddling unregistered securities is a bit silly, no?  (lol@the wording on your site, almost as gud as Slaughter's "AMC is a virtual identity totally owned by the Active Mining Corporation (Belize) that represents both itself and its profits.")  

I am not peddling unregistered securities.  I didn't create NastyFans.  I don't run NastyFans.

 
Just living off others people money while scamming in tha club. I get it. So cool. Blaze some weed, pour that chumpagun.

[OgNasty]

Just living off others people money while scamming in tha club. I get it. So cool. Blaze some weed, pour that chumpagun.

Ya, that's why I donate my time, electricity, and have personally donated more than 25 BTC to the organization...  It's sad that I can be attacked with such ignorance.

[kako_number3]

Just living off others people money while scamming in tha club. I get it. So cool. Blaze some weed, pour that chumpagun.

Ya, that's why I donate my time, electricity, and have personally donated more than 25 BTC to the organization...  It's sad that I can be attacked with such ignorance.

Ya its sad people feed such scammers.

[Phildo]

I've proven you wrong so many times now, it is impossible to claim ignorance at this point.  Thus, anyone who chooses to believe that spending $1 and getting back $20 is losing money can take whatever pleasure from that misbelief they want.  I would hate to rob you of that.

Spending 1 and getting back 20 is certainly losing money when that 1 would have turned into some multiple of 20 by doing nothing with it.