★ BITSTARZ.COM - BTC & EUR Casino | Get 200 Free Spins + 5BTC Welcome Package ★

[bitstars.net]

don't want to be hard on you but please go and check Askgamblers about the site itself.

Rofl, where have I heard that exact same thing from?  

Why should they refund every each individiual that does not follow the terms & conditions that they have approved to understand? Please give a clear and understandable reason.

Because it's predatory? No one should have all their money forfeited because of a mere accident or misunderstanding. If taken to court, there is almost a zero percent chance that bitstarz would win as it's a text book example of an unconscionable clause.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconscionability

I agree... I believe bitstarz is a underfunded casino and put those terms in place in order to help prevent large hits. Casinos that are underfunded should be avoided or played with caution. A real casino that is serious about gambling doesn't put traps in there T&C

Hi there,

No disrespect, but I have to disagree with you on that one, there are plenty of well-funded casinos
that have the same rule in place.

Here are some:

LeoVegas

The maximum bet allowed when using a bonus (until wagering requirements are met) is 50 kr per bet.
Failure to follow this may result in forfeiting any winnings.

RedBet

7.8 The highest wager allowed when using bonus money, until the turnover requirement has been fulfilled, is 5 euro (50 SEK) per spin and 50 eurocent (5 SEK) per betting line. For the purposes of this requirement, a spin is defined as a spin on a game machine, a lottery ticket or a corresponding game in the casino.

SuperLenny

The maximum bet per spin when playing with a bonus is €5/$6/£4 per bet line (or equivalent in any other currency) until the play through requirements of the bonus have been met. This includes double up wagers after the game round has been completed. For example, wagering winnings from X game round on red/black.

SpinEmpire

The maximum bet per spin when playing with a bonus is, unless stated otherwise, €5 per bet (or equivalent in any other currency) until the wagering requirements of the bonus have been met. This includes double-up wagers after the game round has been completed. For example, wagering winnings from X game round on red/black.

YakoCasino

3. The maximum bet per spin when playing with a bonus is €5/5CHF/50NOK/50SEK/$7/R90 per bet (or equivalent in any other currency) until the wagering requirements of the bonus have been met. Should the customer exceed the maximum bonus bet allowed, the bonus balance together with any winnings accumulated will be automatically forfeited.

NoxWin

  4. In the interest of fair gaming and prevention of bonus abuse there is a maximum allowed stake per bet until the wagering requirement has been met. The maximum stake per spin is €6 and €0.5 per bet line. If the player’s account is in a different currency the equivalent amount in that currency applies. Calculate your currency equivalent here.

As far as I'm aware, LeoVegas is the only one who's done an IPO and they're worth
an estimated 380 million dollars on Nasdaq First North. If that's not a well-funded casino,
I'm not sure what is.

Mike

[Jody.Drummer]

whether to deposit in advance in order to receive a free spin?

[bitstars.net]

I have doubt this site, if people lost the deposit money because he bet over the limit, will casino refund him? Definitely no, so this casino steals players funds because they win the money.

Hi there,

If a genuine player made a mistake to bet over the limit, the absolute worst thing that could happen
would be to be left with their original deposit. Even this is quite rare as we tend to let a lot of these
cases slide if it was an honest mistake.

It becomes a bigger issue if the player has multiple accounts at BitStarz or have been warned but keep
making those bets.

I wouldn't call this clause predatory or a "Unconscionable clause" as it's widely used among casinos online, but we of course understand
that people that are new to casino online are not always familiar with it, and that's the thing we're trying
to distinguish when we make the call of acting on the breach or not.

We're not putting a ton of clauses there to screw people over or setting traps. You'll have to understand that a high betting per game round
in relation to their deposited amount is part of a technique used for bonus abusing. It's not only players who have to be on their toes when
it comes to casinos, casinos also have to be on their toes for rogue players. We're doing all we can and more to avoid genuine players getting
trapped in this and adjusting it retroactively where necessary.

There's always going to be an argument if the term is reasonable or not. If we had put some weird algorithm that, you can only
bet 10% up to 100 euro balance and then 23,5% up to 200 euro balance, etc etc, I'd agree with you completely. But we are
trying to make things as clear as we can. The ultimate responsibility in my personal opinion (I'm a player too) is on the person
who's accepting the terms, and this goes for everything, not just casino online.

You read through the terms, and if you don't like something or don't understand it. You ask, or do not play there. But I also
agree that casinos have an obligation to make things as clear and easy as they possibly can.

Mike

[TwitchySeal]

If a genuine player made a mistake to bet over the limit, the absolute worst thing that could happen
would be to be left with their original deposit.
Even this is quite rare as we tend to let a lot of these
cases slide if it was an honest mistake.

I believe that you believe what your saying is true, and it's not that bad.

But really, it is.  If a player survives 35x playthrough, they're likely to have quite a bit of profit.


And I'm going to take a guess and say the you guys let the smaller cashouts slide, and don't bother letting them know until after they have the big cashout pending.
Kinda like throwing a small fish back in the pond to let him grow a little.

You never answered my question by the way:

In total, what is your total gain from seizing cashouts from players for placing a bet greater than 5 euro or BTC.025 bitcoin with an active bonus.

Ballpark it if you have to please.

I have a couple more.

What is your hold % over the past year (or any significant period of time) ( Confirmed Cashout : Deposits )

I think you prob aren't allowed to share that with us though because it's probably something ridiculous  ( I'm guessing 60-70% when it should be around 5)

This is something that every casino regulated by a decent body is required to publishes each month.

It's also something that most of these provably fair transparent Bitcoin sites offer.  I just found this one for example:

It becomes a bigger issue if the player has multiple accounts at BitStarz or have been warned but keep
making those bets.

Why?

Your deposit bonuses are terribly terribly -ev and offering no deposit bonuses is like throwing steak to a dog and then yelling at him for eating it.

[bitstars.net]

I believe that you believe what your saying is true, and it's not that bad.

But really, it is.  If a player survives 35x playthrough, they're likely to have quite a bit of profit.


And I'm going to take a guess and say the you guys let the smaller cashouts slide, and don't bother letting them know until after they have the big cashout pending. Kinda like throwing a small fish back in the pond to let him grow a little.

You never answered my question by the way:

As said before, I can only measure it by the amount of bonus money that is being converted. My previous statement
therefore stands.

Well, you can guess anything you want, but that doesn't make it true. Which is the case here.

In total, what is your total gain from seizing cashouts from players for placing a bet greater than 5 euro or BTC.025 bitcoin with an active bonus.

Ballpark it if you have to please.

I don't have those numbers available, but in the grand scheme of things it's a drop in the ocean as far as I'm aware.

I have a couple more.

What is your hold % over the past year (or any significant period of time) ( Confirmed Cashout : Deposits )

I think you prob aren't allowed to share that with us though because it's probably something ridiculous  ( I'm guessing 60-70% when it should be around 5)

This is something that every casino regulated by a decent body is required to publishes each month.

It's also something that most of these provably fair transparent Bitcoin sites offer.  I just found this one for example:

It becomes a bigger issue if the player has multiple accounts at BitStarz or have been warned but keep
making those bets.

I'm not going to release the hold of the casino or any other financial statements about the company for
our competitors to see here.

Why?

Your deposit bonuses are terribly terribly -ev and offering no deposit bonuses is like throwing steak to a dog and then yelling at him for eating it.

Because if someone is opening multiple accounts to try to take advantage of the casino, that's a clear violation of the terms
of the site. Now, it would be great to hear your opinion on the casino rules. Which ones do you actually agree with? You seem
to have a negative opinion on quite a few terms. So, it would be lovely if you could elaborate on that.

Also, my recommendation would be to bring your question to an actual gambling oriented forum such as AskGamblers, CasinoMeister
or LCB. They've got decades of gambling experience under their belt, from a player and advocate perspective, and they would side with
the max bet rule and our argumentation.

So, don't just take it from me.

[RHavar]

If a genuine player made a mistake to bet over the limit, the absolute worst thing that could happen
would be to be left with their original deposit. Even this is quite rare as we tend to let a lot of these
cases slide if it was an honest mistake.

What about in the case of worthyou: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1454521.msg14704015#msg14704015

He by all accounts is a legitimate player, who accidentally bet over the limit in a small number of bets? According to his side of the events (which were never rebutted) that appeared to result in his entire account funds being confiscated?

(There's also a few other accounts of the same thing happening with larger amounts of money as well)

[bitstars.net]

If a genuine player made a mistake to bet over the limit, the absolute worst thing that could happen
would be to be left with their original deposit. Even this is quite rare as we tend to let a lot of these
cases slide if it was an honest mistake.

What about in the case of worthyou: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1454521.msg14704015#msg14704015

He by all accounts is a legitimate player, who accidentally bet over the limit in a small number of bets? According to his side of the events (which were never rebutted) that appeared to result in his entire account funds being confiscated?

(There's also a few other accounts of the same thing happening with larger amounts of money as well)

Hi there,

If I believe correctly:

The player made quite a number of bets over the limit, and I believe there was another reason too that I can't
remember on top of my head, I'll have to check with the guys again. Stay tuned.

The player also received a second chance with his deposit + bonus to have another go at the games,
and the first thing he did was to go over the limit again with his first spin that he made. Hence
resulting in the final confiscation.

Mike

[TwitchySeal]

Hi there,

If I believe correctly:

The player made quite a number of bets over the limit, and I believe there was another reason too that I can't
remember on top of my head, I'll have to check with the guys again. Stay tuned.

The player also received a second chance with his deposit + bonus to have another go at the games,
and the first thing he did was to go over the limit again with his first spin that he made. Hence
resulting in the final confiscation.

Maybe he was fucked up or something.  So what, you can't just take his money unless you believe he was maliciously trying to defraud you.  

Because if someone is opening multiple accounts to try to take advantage of the casino, that's a clear violation of the terms
of the site.

If it were possible to take advantage of your casino by opening multiple accounts you would of gone out of business long ago.

The reality is a substantial portion of your income is expected to come from T&C violations every year. I think that's unethical
A player shouldn't have to read your your 4,000 words of General T&C and then 2,000 words of Promotional T&C and then wonder if there's more somewhere else they might be missing.  

You're running a casino, right?  People like to relax and gamble and not have to worry about getting paid if they win.

Right now, you have a rule that basically changes many  the buttons in your games into  "Lose all your money if you push this button"
It's a trap.

I can tell you there's a huge difference between playing on a site regulated in America and playing on a site like Bitstarz.
The sad thing is, Bitcoin gives you the chance to become just as trusted or more than a site that has invested millions into their license.

Now, it would be great to hear your opinion on the casino rules. Which ones do you actually agree with? You seem
to have a negative opinion on quite a few terms. So, it would be lovely if you could elaborate on that.

I disagree with most of the rules that are found in softswiss casinos.

Where are the rules that they follow by the way?

Also, my recommendation would be to bring your question to an actual gambling oriented forum such as AskGamblers, CasinoMeister
or LCB. They've got decades of gambling experience under their belt, from a player and advocate perspective, and they would side with
the max bet rule and our argumentation.

So, don't just take it from me.

We are in the Bitcoin Gambling forum you know, and RHaver is the guy who built moneypot, bustabit, that lottery thing...

[bitstars.net]

Maybe he was fucked up or something.  So what, you can't just take his money unless you believe he was maliciously trying to defraud you.  

Well, we could, but then sense of morality comes in for sure. But how do you draw that distinction, that's the interesting thing here, how do you
differentiate a genuine from a loyal player. It ain't easy sometimes, and that's why we have to go through them manually to gather date and
try to make that call.

If it were possible to take advantage of your casino by opening multiple accounts you would of gone out of business long ago.

The reality is a substantial portion of your income is expected to come from T&C violations every year. I think that's unethical
A player shouldn't have to read your your 4,000 words of General T&C and then 2,000 words of Promotional T&C and then wonder if there's more somewhere else they might be missing.  

You're running a casino, right?  People like to relax and gamble and not have to worry about getting paid if they win.

Right now, you have a rule that basically changes many  the buttons in your games into  "Lose all your money if you push this button"
It's a trap.

I can tell you there's a huge difference between playing on a site regulated in America and playing on a site like Bitstarz.
The sad thing is, Bitcoin gives you the chance to become just as trusted or more than a site that has invested millions into their license.

I think you're missing the point here. I'm of course not talking about just opening multiple accounts and having them laying around, I'm
talking about multiple accounts to grab the sign-up free spins or making deposits on multiple accounts to get the welcome packages.

Now, it would be great to hear your opinion on the casino rules. Which ones do you actually agree with? You seem
to have a negative opinion on quite a few terms. So, it would be lovely if you could elaborate on that.

We are in the Bitcoin Gambling forum you know, and RHaver is the guy who built moneypot, bustabit, that lottery thing...[/quote]

Bitcoin or not, the rules of a site applies to both Bitcoin and Fiat. The rules doesn't change depending on what currency you use.
Besides, Bitcoin gambling is quite a new concept, online fiat casinos have quite some history and are the explanation to why the
Bitcoin casinos look and operate like they do. So, if you're looking to some senior knowledge on any type of gambling, those would
be great sources for you.

[btcgmbling]

So you guys still hold firm on your stance that someone like me (who you confiscated 20 btc in winnings from) saw the max bet was 0.025 btc and knew that if I bet over that amount then all of my winnings would be confiscated... then I said "hmm let me try to get one over on them and bet over the limit" knowing that my winnings would be confiscated? ... what a joke.. Obviously if me/others had known this, we would not bet over that amount... You guys allow bets to be placed over this amount and have not done anything to rectify it, even after many many months and many complaints.

Also it is worth saying that I actually did take probably 20-30 minutes to read your terms very carefully and I guess missed the max bet clause. It is obviously hidden for a reason - and that is to maximize your profits and screw players over... glad to see that rhavar, twitchyseal and others are standing up to you guys.

Furthermore, your only response to anyone who criticizes you and your B.S. terms is to run to Askgamblers, who I might add, you pay significantly to promote you and appears to be your biggest affiliate...

Also they are only there to mediate complaints where the casino violates its own terms. They don't acknowledge the root of these problems, which in your case is B.S. bonus terms (hidden and predatory). So telling people to complain there will not help anyone, and means you are dancing around the issue.

This is terrible not only for you, but also for the bitcoin gambling community as a whole.

[bitstars.net]

So you guys still hold firm on your stance that someone like me (who you confiscated 20 btc in winnings from) saw the max bet was 0.025 btc and knew that if I bet over that amount then all of my winnings would be confiscated... then I said "hmm let me try to get one over on them and bet over the limit" knowing that my winnings would be confiscated? ... what a joke.. Obviously if me/others had known this, we would not bet over that amount... You guys allow bets to be placed over this amount and have not done anything to rectify it, even after many many months and many complaints.

Also it is worth saying that I actually did take probably 20-30 minutes to read your terms very carefully and I guess missed the max bet clause. It is obviously hidden for a reason - and that is to maximize your profits and screw players over... glad to see that rhavar, twitchyseal and others are standing up to you guys.

Furthermore, your only response to anyone who criticizes you and your B.S. terms is to run to Askgamblers, who I might add, you pay significantly to promote you and appears to be your biggest affiliate...

Also they are only there to mediate complaints where the casino violates its own terms. They don't acknowledge the root of these problems, which in your case is B.S. bonus terms (hidden and predatory). So telling people to complain there will not help anyone, and means you are dancing around the issue.

This is terrible not only for you, but also for the bitcoin gambling community as a whole.

Hi there,

If you're reading the terms and conditions, there are not many that dictates how you can play or not. It's mostly filled
with information which countries are excluded from receiving bonuses, that you can only get one per IP, etc. Very few
of them are rules that states that you should play a certain way.

If you don't believe what AskGamblers is saying, then you can go to CasinoMeister, one of the largest advocates of fair
play. We do not get any traffic from them and I'm sure they'd say the same thing about the max bet clause, if you're worried
about some kind of bias.

Also, please enlighten me how we can make the terms more clear, and where to put them. They're put in many places on the
site, in all bonus emails, on the deposit page, etc. If you have a better place to put them, or any more place, then we'd appreciate
if you wanted to make gambling slightly better and more convenient for everyone and provide feedback as to where that would be.

Mike

[btcgmbling]

So you guys still hold firm on your stance that someone like me (who you confiscated 20 btc in winnings from) saw the max bet was 0.025 btc and knew that if I bet over that amount then all of my winnings would be confiscated... then I said "hmm let me try to get one over on them and bet over the limit" knowing that my winnings would be confiscated? ... what a joke.. Obviously if me/others had known this, we would not bet over that amount... You guys allow bets to be placed over this amount and have not done anything to rectify it, even after many many months and many complaints.

Also it is worth saying that I actually did take probably 20-30 minutes to read your terms very carefully and I guess missed the max bet clause. It is obviously hidden for a reason - and that is to maximize your profits and screw players over... glad to see that rhavar, twitchyseal and others are standing up to you guys.

Furthermore, your only response to anyone who criticizes you and your B.S. terms is to run to Askgamblers, who I might add, you pay significantly to promote you and appears to be your biggest affiliate...

Also they are only there to mediate complaints where the casino violates its own terms. They don't acknowledge the root of these problems, which in your case is B.S. bonus terms (hidden and predatory). So telling people to complain there will not help anyone, and means you are dancing around the issue.

This is terrible not only for you, but also for the bitcoin gambling community as a whole.

If you have a better place to put them, or any more place, then we'd appreciate if you wanted to make gambling slightly better and more convenient for everyone and provide feedback as to where that would be.

Mike

Hey Mike,

In regards to where to put the bonus terms to make them more clear - you can start by taking them and SHOVING THEM UP YOUR ASS!

Every time I read this thread, my blood boils. So for my own health I will no longer be following it. It is a waste of time trying to argue with you Mike, you are a scumbag and apparently the only person who works at BitStarz. Congratulations though, you are probably a very wealthy man. Kudos to you.

Good riddance

[Lucky7btc]

So you guys still hold firm on your stance that someone like me (who you confiscated 20 btc in winnings from) saw the max bet was 0.025 btc and knew that if I bet over that amount then all of my winnings would be confiscated... then I said "hmm let me try to get one over on them and bet over the limit" knowing that my winnings would be confiscated? ... what a joke.. Obviously if me/others had known this, we would not bet over that amount... You guys allow bets to be placed over this amount and have not done anything to rectify it, even after many many months and many complaints.

Also it is worth saying that I actually did take probably 20-30 minutes to read your terms very carefully and I guess missed the max bet clause. It is obviously hidden for a reason - and that is to maximize your profits and screw players over... glad to see that rhavar, twitchyseal and others are standing up to you guys.

Furthermore, your only response to anyone who criticizes you and your B.S. terms is to run to Askgamblers, who I might add, you pay significantly to promote you and appears to be your biggest affiliate...

Also they are only there to mediate complaints where the casino violates its own terms. They don't acknowledge the root of these problems, which in your case is B.S. bonus terms (hidden and predatory). So telling people to complain there will not help anyone, and means you are dancing around the issue.

This is terrible not only for you, but also for the bitcoin gambling community as a whole.

If you have a better place to put them, or any more place, then we'd appreciate if you wanted to make gambling slightly better and more convenient for everyone and provide feedback as to where that would be.

Mike

Hey Mike,

In regards to where to put the bonus terms to make them more clear - you can start by taking them and SHOVING THEM UP YOUR ASS!

Every time I read this thread, my blood boils. So for my own health I will no longer be following it. It is a waste of time trying to argue with you Mike, you are a scumbag and apparently the only person who works at BitStarz. Congratulations though, you are probably a very wealthy man. Kudos to you.

Good riddance

Vote with your feet and no longer play there. These are rogue terms and there are many other bitcoin casinos that doesn't have them. As I said and SERIOUS casino doesn't place trap terms.

[bitstars.net]

So you guys still hold firm on your stance that someone like me (who you confiscated 20 btc in winnings from) saw the max bet was 0.025 btc and knew that if I bet over that amount then all of my winnings would be confiscated... then I said "hmm let me try to get one over on them and bet over the limit" knowing that my winnings would be confiscated? ... what a joke.. Obviously if me/others had known this, we would not bet over that amount... You guys allow bets to be placed over this amount and have not done anything to rectify it, even after many many months and many complaints.

Also it is worth saying that I actually did take probably 20-30 minutes to read your terms very carefully and I guess missed the max bet clause. It is obviously hidden for a reason - and that is to maximize your profits and screw players over... glad to see that rhavar, twitchyseal and others are standing up to you guys.

Furthermore, your only response to anyone who criticizes you and your B.S. terms is to run to Askgamblers, who I might add, you pay significantly to promote you and appears to be your biggest affiliate...

Also they are only there to mediate complaints where the casino violates its own terms. They don't acknowledge the root of these problems, which in your case is B.S. bonus terms (hidden and predatory). So telling people to complain there will not help anyone, and means you are dancing around the issue.

This is terrible not only for you, but also for the bitcoin gambling community as a whole.

If you have a better place to put them, or any more place, then we'd appreciate if you wanted to make gambling slightly better and more convenient for everyone and provide feedback as to where that would be.

Mike

Hey Mike,

In regards to where to put the bonus terms to make them more clear - you can start by taking them and SHOVING THEM UP YOUR ASS!

Every time I read this thread, my blood boils. So for my own health I will no longer be following it. It is a waste of time trying to argue with you Mike, you are a scumbag and apparently the only person who works at BitStarz. Congratulations though, you are probably a very wealthy man. Kudos to you.

Good riddance

Hi there,

Well, I've always been a fan of constructive criticism, but complaining about the terms not being visible but won't
get any feedback as to how we can adjust them to your liking is not gonna help anyone.

Mike

[bitstars.net]

So you guys still hold firm on your stance that someone like me (who you confiscated 20 btc in winnings from) saw the max bet was 0.025 btc and knew that if I bet over that amount then all of my winnings would be confiscated... then I said "hmm let me try to get one over on them and bet over the limit" knowing that my winnings would be confiscated? ... what a joke.. Obviously if me/others had known this, we would not bet over that amount... You guys allow bets to be placed over this amount and have not done anything to rectify it, even after many many months and many complaints.

Also it is worth saying that I actually did take probably 20-30 minutes to read your terms very carefully and I guess missed the max bet clause. It is obviously hidden for a reason - and that is to maximize your profits and screw players over... glad to see that rhavar, twitchyseal and others are standing up to you guys.

Furthermore, your only response to anyone who criticizes you and your B.S. terms is to run to Askgamblers, who I might add, you pay significantly to promote you and appears to be your biggest affiliate...

Also they are only there to mediate complaints where the casino violates its own terms. They don't acknowledge the root of these problems, which in your case is B.S. bonus terms (hidden and predatory). So telling people to complain there will not help anyone, and means you are dancing around the issue.

This is terrible not only for you, but also for the bitcoin gambling community as a whole.

If you have a better place to put them, or any more place, then we'd appreciate if you wanted to make gambling slightly better and more convenient for everyone and provide feedback as to where that would be.

Mike

Hey Mike,

In regards to where to put the bonus terms to make them more clear - you can start by taking them and SHOVING THEM UP YOUR ASS!

Every time I read this thread, my blood boils. So for my own health I will no longer be following it. It is a waste of time trying to argue with you Mike, you are a scumbag and apparently the only person who works at BitStarz. Congratulations though, you are probably a very wealthy man. Kudos to you.

Good riddance

Vote with your feet and no longer play there. These are rogue terms and there are many other bitcoin casinos that doesn't have them. As I said and SERIOUS casino doesn't place trap terms.

Hi there,

So you wouldn't call some of the world's biggest online casinos serious? I agree with you on
one thing though, if you don't like the terms, then you shouldn't play on that particular site.

If you don't agree with the terms of use, then you should find another site that suits you better.

Mike

[TwitchySeal]

So you guys still hold firm on your stance that someone like me (who you confiscated 20 btc in winnings from) saw the max bet was 0.025 btc and knew that if I bet over that amount then all of my winnings would be confiscated... then I said "hmm let me try to get one over on them and bet over the limit" knowing that my winnings would be confiscated? ... what a joke.. Obviously if me/others had known this, we would not bet over that amount... You guys allow bets to be placed over this amount and have not done anything to rectify it, even after many many months and many complaints.

Also it is worth saying that I actually did take probably 20-30 minutes to read your terms very carefully and I guess missed the max bet clause. It is obviously hidden for a reason - and that is to maximize your profits and screw players over... glad to see that rhavar, twitchyseal and others are standing up to you guys.

Furthermore, your only response to anyone who criticizes you and your B.S. terms is to run to Askgamblers, who I might add, you pay significantly to promote you and appears to be your biggest affiliate...

Also they are only there to mediate complaints where the casino violates its own terms. They don't acknowledge the root of these problems, which in your case is B.S. bonus terms (hidden and predatory). So telling people to complain there will not help anyone, and means you are dancing around the issue.

This is terrible not only for you, but also for the bitcoin gambling community as a whole.

Hi there,

If you're reading the terms and conditions, there are not many that dictates how you can play or not. It's mostly filled
with information which countries are excluded from receiving bonuses, that you can only get one per IP, etc. Very few
of them are rules that states that you should play a certain way.

If you don't believe what AskGamblers is saying, then you can go to CasinoMeister, one of the largest advocates of fair
play. We do not get any traffic from them and I'm sure they'd say the same thing about the max bet clause, if you're worried
about some kind of bias.

Also, please enlighten me how we can make the terms more clear, and where to put them. They're put in many places on the
site, in all bonus emails, on the deposit page, etc. If you have a better place to put them, or any more place, then we'd appreciate
if you wanted to make gambling slightly better and more convenient for everyone and provide feedback as to where that would be.

Mike

Hi there,

You may recall I recently pointed out that many of your bonuses had a link to your general terms and conditions.  Your promotional terms were only accesable by clicking on a "terms and conditions" link after after landing on the promotions page.

You quickly fixed it, which is nice, but this guy seems to be exactly why they should have never been the way they were....

Did you really take 20 btc from this guy?  wtf

[TwitchySeal]

Here's the post.  I think you made the change the same day:

Mike,

How many casinos can you name that have this rule and aren't using softswiss software?  I'll give you a list 10x as long of casinos that don't and would lose their license if they did.

The rule exists only to be violated.  It doesn't protect the casino from anything, it does create a potential vulnerability in players for you to exploit.  It's predatory.

In the short run Im sure it seems like a brilliant idea.  But it's not only damaging your rep, it's turning people off from gambling for bitcoin and even just bitcoin.

I know you didn't write the rules or decide where they are displayed, but please, pay attention to this:

Unless a player has already landed on https://www.bitstarz.com/promotions, any hyperlink within the site titled "Terms & Conditions" will bring them to: https://www.bitstarz.com/terms
(this is the 4,000+ word version that does not mention the max bet rule)

If a player navigates to https://www.bitstarz.com/promotions, then clicks on "Terms & Conditions" next to a specific promotion (not on the bottom of the page) they will remain on https://www.bitstarz.com/promotions and a popup with BONUS TERMS AND CONDITIONS will appear.  (it's 2,000+ words, with this rule located on the bottom third)

Your promotional emails link directly to https://www.bitstarz.com/bonus-terms-and-conditions, which is the same as the pop-up one would get from https://www.bitstarz.com/promotions

So...Some of your examples below, like the Terms link when signing up, will never bring you to the max bet rule.  And some of them will bring only those who have already navigated to /promotions page.

Example, before signing up, a user checks out terms and conditions:
(lands on https://www.bitstarz.com/terms reads 4,000 words, is not informed of max bet)



PS: Some of Your Betsoft Progressive Jackpots are fraudulent (For example, 1% is getting taken by Betsoft while GlamLife, Some of the Larger Greedy Goblins and Bad Girl Jackpots are unwinnable, also Pocketdice just scammed a player for BTC102, you should drop them both as providers.  I'll be back to explain soon, or you could research it yourself.

[bitstars.net]

So you guys still hold firm on your stance that someone like me (who you confiscated 20 btc in winnings from) saw the max bet was 0.025 btc and knew that if I bet over that amount then all of my winnings would be confiscated... then I said "hmm let me try to get one over on them and bet over the limit" knowing that my winnings would be confiscated? ... what a joke.. Obviously if me/others had known this, we would not bet over that amount... You guys allow bets to be placed over this amount and have not done anything to rectify it, even after many many months and many complaints.

Also it is worth saying that I actually did take probably 20-30 minutes to read your terms very carefully and I guess missed the max bet clause. It is obviously hidden for a reason - and that is to maximize your profits and screw players over... glad to see that rhavar, twitchyseal and others are standing up to you guys.

Furthermore, your only response to anyone who criticizes you and your B.S. terms is to run to Askgamblers, who I might add, you pay significantly to promote you and appears to be your biggest affiliate...

Also they are only there to mediate complaints where the casino violates its own terms. They don't acknowledge the root of these problems, which in your case is B.S. bonus terms (hidden and predatory). So telling people to complain there will not help anyone, and means you are dancing around the issue.

This is terrible not only for you, but also for the bitcoin gambling community as a whole.

Hi there,

If you're reading the terms and conditions, there are not many that dictates how you can play or not. It's mostly filled
with information which countries are excluded from receiving bonuses, that you can only get one per IP, etc. Very few
of them are rules that states that you should play a certain way.

If you don't believe what AskGamblers is saying, then you can go to CasinoMeister, one of the largest advocates of fair
play. We do not get any traffic from them and I'm sure they'd say the same thing about the max bet clause, if you're worried
about some kind of bias.

Also, please enlighten me how we can make the terms more clear, and where to put them. They're put in many places on the
site, in all bonus emails, on the deposit page, etc. If you have a better place to put them, or any more place, then we'd appreciate
if you wanted to make gambling slightly better and more convenient for everyone and provide feedback as to where that would be.

Mike

Hi there,

You may recall I recently pointed out that many of your bonuses had a link to your general terms and conditions.  Your promotional terms were only accesable by clicking on a "terms and conditions" link after after landing on the promotions page.

You quickly fixed it, which is nice, but this guy seems to be exactly why they should have never been the way they were....

Hi there,

We're always working on trying to make it as clear as possible and I appreciate the feedback we got from you
regarding this. It was still available via the promotions page and on the main page where the bonuses are displayed
(In the main big banner of the website that is).

If there's anywhere else you feel they're needed to make it clear, let me know.

Mike

[TwitchySeal]

So you guys still hold firm on your stance that someone like me (who you confiscated 20 btc in winnings from) saw the max bet was 0.025 btc and knew that if I bet over that amount then all of my winnings would be confiscated... then I said "hmm let me try to get one over on them and bet over the limit" knowing that my winnings would be confiscated? ... what a joke.. Obviously if me/others had known this, we would not bet over that amount... You guys allow bets to be placed over this amount and have not done anything to rectify it, even after many many months and many complaints.

Also it is worth saying that I actually did take probably 20-30 minutes to read your terms very carefully and I guess missed the max bet clause. It is obviously hidden for a reason - and that is to maximize your profits and screw players over... glad to see that rhavar, twitchyseal and others are standing up to you guys.

Furthermore, your only response to anyone who criticizes you and your B.S. terms is to run to Askgamblers, who I might add, you pay significantly to promote you and appears to be your biggest affiliate...

Also they are only there to mediate complaints where the casino violates its own terms. They don't acknowledge the root of these problems, which in your case is B.S. bonus terms (hidden and predatory). So telling people to complain there will not help anyone, and means you are dancing around the issue.

This is terrible not only for you, but also for the bitcoin gambling community as a whole.

Hi there,

If you're reading the terms and conditions, there are not many that dictates how you can play or not. It's mostly filled
with information which countries are excluded from receiving bonuses, that you can only get one per IP, etc. Very few
of them are rules that states that you should play a certain way.

If you don't believe what AskGamblers is saying, then you can go to CasinoMeister, one of the largest advocates of fair
play. We do not get any traffic from them and I'm sure they'd say the same thing about the max bet clause, if you're worried
about some kind of bias.

Also, please enlighten me how we can make the terms more clear, and where to put them. They're put in many places on the
site, in all bonus emails, on the deposit page, etc. If you have a better place to put them, or any more place, then we'd appreciate
if you wanted to make gambling slightly better and more convenient for everyone and provide feedback as to where that would be.

Mike

Hi there,

You may recall I recently pointed out that many of your bonuses had a link to your general terms and conditions.  Your promotional terms were only accesable by clicking on a "terms and conditions" link after after landing on the promotions page.

You quickly fixed it, which is nice, but this guy seems to be exactly why they should have never been the way they were....

Hi there,

We're always working on trying to make it as clear as possible and I appreciate the feedback we got from you
regarding this. It was still available via the promotions page and on the main page where the bonuses are displayed
(In the main big banner of the website that is).

If there's anywhere else you feel they're needed to make it clear, let me know.

Mike

If you went out at got 100 random people who have never gambled online before, and you gave them 1 bitcoin or 600 euro each for them to deposit on your site after signing up, and reading the terms and conditions.

What's the over under on how many of them commit a violation that gives bitstarz the right to seize their winnings?  ( all new players that know very little about gambling, none of them have any malicious intentions)

If the number is any higher than 0.5, you're not doing your job ethically.

[bitstars.net]

So you guys still hold firm on your stance that someone like me (who you confiscated 20 btc in winnings from) saw the max bet was 0.025 btc and knew that if I bet over that amount then all of my winnings would be confiscated... then I said "hmm let me try to get one over on them and bet over the limit" knowing that my winnings would be confiscated? ... what a joke.. Obviously if me/others had known this, we would not bet over that amount... You guys allow bets to be placed over this amount and have not done anything to rectify it, even after many many months and many complaints.

Also it is worth saying that I actually did take probably 20-30 minutes to read your terms very carefully and I guess missed the max bet clause. It is obviously hidden for a reason - and that is to maximize your profits and screw players over... glad to see that rhavar, twitchyseal and others are standing up to you guys.

Furthermore, your only response to anyone who criticizes you and your B.S. terms is to run to Askgamblers, who I might add, you pay significantly to promote you and appears to be your biggest affiliate...

Also they are only there to mediate complaints where the casino violates its own terms. They don't acknowledge the root of these problems, which in your case is B.S. bonus terms (hidden and predatory). So telling people to complain there will not help anyone, and means you are dancing around the issue.

This is terrible not only for you, but also for the bitcoin gambling community as a whole.

Hi there,

If you're reading the terms and conditions, there are not many that dictates how you can play or not. It's mostly filled
with information which countries are excluded from receiving bonuses, that you can only get one per IP, etc. Very few
of them are rules that states that you should play a certain way.

If you don't believe what AskGamblers is saying, then you can go to CasinoMeister, one of the largest advocates of fair
play. We do not get any traffic from them and I'm sure they'd say the same thing about the max bet clause, if you're worried
about some kind of bias.

Also, please enlighten me how we can make the terms more clear, and where to put them. They're put in many places on the
site, in all bonus emails, on the deposit page, etc. If you have a better place to put them, or any more place, then we'd appreciate
if you wanted to make gambling slightly better and more convenient for everyone and provide feedback as to where that would be.

Mike

Hi there,

You may recall I recently pointed out that many of your bonuses had a link to your general terms and conditions.  Your promotional terms were only accesable by clicking on a "terms and conditions" link after after landing on the promotions page.

You quickly fixed it, which is nice, but this guy seems to be exactly why they should have never been the way they were....

Hi there,

We're always working on trying to make it as clear as possible and I appreciate the feedback we got from you
regarding this. It was still available via the promotions page and on the main page where the bonuses are displayed
(In the main big banner of the website that is).

If there's anywhere else you feel they're needed to make it clear, let me know.

Mike

If you went out at got 100 random people who have never gambled online before, and you gave them 1 bitcoin or 600 euro each for them to deposit on your site after signing up, and reading the terms and conditions.

What's the over under on how many of them commit a violation that gives bitstarz the right to seize their winnings?  ( all new players that know very little about gambling, none of them have any malicious intentions)

If the number is any higher than 0.5, you're not doing your job ethically.

Hi there,

First of all, I doubt that the average player would come in to a new site and dump in 1 BTC or 600 euro each, very few players
actually would do such a thing. Most players actually try the site out with a smaller amount first. If these new players would
also contact us regarding anything that has to do with a bonus (which many new players do as they do not always know how it works)
we do our best to remind them specifically about the 25 mBTC per bet rule.

Again, applying the rule in practice is quite rare. Sure, there are some examples here online, but then you're forgetting about the massive
amount of players who have read through and understood or for whatever other reason never have had a problem. It's easy to forget about
them.

I'm not sure what you're basing your 0.5 on, however, I could quite easily say that it's nothing higher than 0.5 on average.

I've also got a guarantee from softswiss that they have an absolute latest deadline of 4 months to have the max bet limit technically
applied to all softswiss sites. Hopefully it's way faster than that, but that's the guarantee we got.

Mike