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Author Topic: NEM (XEM) Official Thread - 100% New Code - Easy To Use APIs  (Read 2977737 times)
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abaumgar
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January 26, 2018, 09:37:26 PM
 #35361



Automated tagging doesn't work. All the attacker needs to do is send some NEM to all the richlist addresses. Please be careful trying to implement something like this. There is a reason cryptos need fungibility.

The NEM/Coincheck teams need to try and get in touch with the hacker and see if they can negotiate something. The attacker will find it hard to sell out with the exchanges closing/blocking transfers.


of course the tracking algorithm should notice the amount of XEMs.
There are millions to be tracked; so no use to track 10 - 100 XEMs.


The amount doesn't matter mate. You cannot really 'taint' certain coins without a more systemic risk. The attacker has 500 million XEM. That's a lot. Here's some math for you.

1000 XEM to the top 500 richlist = 500,000 XEM spent.
Total the attacker has = 500,000,000 XEM
% used for this purpose = 500,000/500,000,000*100% = 0.1%


So with just 0.1% of the hacked funds, the top 500 richlist can become 'tainted'. If you automate this, it can be worse, since it will end up tagging most legitimate addresses and therefore make the original tagging useless.



How many transactions is made in a day?
Isn't it possible to track the paths, to where the 500M is splitted?
And so keep the track of which accounts have the most of the 500M.

What are the reasons, why you see the problem so big that it cannot be broken?


What is the most of the 500M? The attacker can split the account in uneven pieces and sell the smaller pieces.
He could also hold an account with coins that are not tagged (clean coins) and send dirty coins it to this account in order to do coin laundry.
I do not see how this can work. It will be a mess.


most of the 500M is e.g. 450M.

If he sends some XEMs (10000 XEM) to an account of clean coins (90 000 XEM),
then it so that after that the account is "dirty". Right?
It has 10% dirty coins.

well, maybe I'm too optimistic Smiley   but somehow I do trust the Devs and becoz have also seen complex sw projects to be implemented, I think that this tracking sw is not impossible. It may need good co-operation between biggest exchanges, but I wish that it would not be the unbeatable issue.


This "If he sends some XEMs (10000 XEM) to an account of clean coins (90 000 XEM), then it so that after that the account is "dirty". Right?" leads to a discussion loop:
See richlist discussion.
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January 26, 2018, 09:40:47 PM
 #35362

The largest hack in history was solved for by NEM in a matter of hours. That is the power of the NEM platform and NEM team.

What a novel use of the word "solved."  I wonder if the people who lost their coins feel this is an appropriate usage of the term.

Nice spin job though.  Lots of self-congratulation and hype to distract from the fact that NEM is not fungible (can't even do coinjoin-style mixing hacks?) and centrally controlled.

This fiasco ...

sounds like an old school comment Smiley

Wasn't the cause of the hack
a) Coincheck did not use multi-sig and not use real cold storage
or
b) Coincheck had an internal issue.

Either ot those is not depending on NEM system. Right?

We don't know whether the so-called hack was

a. an inside job by a Coincheck worker
b. an inside job by a NEM dev (hidden exploit in the code)
c. Coincheck incompetence (didn't use cold storage, multi-sig, etc.)
d. Spectre/Meltdown/Rowhammer attack by a state-level TLA adversary

or a combination of two, three, or all four.  We may never know, as happened with MtGox.

But that's all just a hand-waving distraction from the point of my post.


The real issue here is the incompetent, dishonest, misleading, and 100% self-serving response of the NEM devs.  The NEM system depends on the competency and honesty of the NEM devs.  Right?

The Official NEM response is to tout this fiasco as some kind of great victory for NEM because they wrote a Tattletale Bot that narcs on Bad Coins, as if that "solved" the many issues created.

That approach does not in reality solve anything because the attacker may simply choose to taint the NEM rich list to whatever extent they require to moot the issue of taint.

That approach also emphasizes NEM is centralized and possession/utility of NEM coins is de facto arbitrarily decided by a NEM Central Committee composed of NEM Core and NEM exchange bosses.

That is not how a fungible currency works.  That is not how a permissionless system works.

The response and fake solution of NEM Core is crafted to appease greedy low-information moonchildren who don't understand these issues and induce them to simply buy back their bags of this centralized, non-fungible shitcoin.

yea, agree with that "not yet solved".
But did not quite accept the strong words against the coin itself Smiley  
Despite the few targets of the criticism (..., ...), I've seen that the coin / system is well-working and has some new features, which give some value for it.

But, it is interesting to see, how this case develops...


NeXT NEM.
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January 26, 2018, 09:46:35 PM
 #35363

Why is there such a rich list? Why was it created?

Possibly the reason is that from the list can be checked, how well the coin is shared to different acounts, i.e. that many people own the coins, not just the whales. (now cannot remember the right word for this concept Smiley )

For NXT that was kind of problem.
And NEM was kind of answer to that problem Wink


https://nemnodes.org/richlist/


NeXT NEM.
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January 26, 2018, 10:11:06 PM
 #35364

Why is there such a rich list? Why was it created?

That's how (most) blockchains work. The transactions are public from the moment they are created. That's how everyone can agree to the current balances, for example. If the balances are hidden, you will need to introduce trust into the system. Anyone can download the NEM or Bitcoin blockchain and see every address along with the totals. Anyone with an internet connection can compile a richlist.

There are some exceptions to this like Monero and Zcash but the above is how most blockchains work. NEM is no exception.
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January 26, 2018, 10:22:28 PM
Merited by iCEBREAKER (1)
 #35365

The largest hack in history was solved for by NEM in a matter of hours. That is the power of the NEM platform and NEM team.

What a novel use of the word "solved."  I wonder if the people who lost their coins feel this is an appropriate usage of the term.

Nice spin job though.  Lots of self-congratulation and hype to distract from the fact that NEM is not fungible (can't even do coinjoin-style mixing hacks?) and centrally controlled.

This fiasco (and especially the response) demonstrates exactly why I wouldn't even touch this dog shit coin with a pooper-scooper and clothespin on my nose to keep the stench out.

sounds like an old school comment Smiley

Wasn't the cause of the hack
a) Coincheck did not use multi-sig and not use real cold storage
or
b) Coincheck had an internal issue.

Either ot those is not depending on NEM system. Right?

We don't know whether the so-called hack was

a. an inside job by a Coincheck worker
b. an inside job by a NEM dev (hidden exploit in the code)
c. Coincheck incompetence (didn't use cold storage, multi-sig, etc.)
d. Spectre/Meltdown/Rowhammer attack by a state-level TLA adversary

or a combination of two, three, or all four.  We may never know, as happened with MtGox.

But that's all just a hand-waving distraction from the point of my post.


The real issue here is the incompetent, dishonest, misleading, and 100% self-serving response of the NEM devs.  The NEM system depends on the competency and honesty of the NEM devs.  Right?

The Official NEM response is to tout this fiasco as some kind of great victory for NEM because they wrote a Tattletale Bot that narcs on Bad Coins, as if that "solved" the many issues created.

That approach does not in reality solve anything because the attacker may simply choose to taint the NEM rich list to whatever extent they require to moot the issue of taint.

That approach also emphasizes NEM is centralized and possession/utility of NEM coins is de facto arbitrarily decided by a NEM Central Committee composed of NEM Core and NEM exchange bosses.

That is not how a fungible currency works.  That is not how a permissionless system works.

The response and fake solution of NEM Core is crafted to appease greedy low-information moonchildren who don't understand these issues and induce them to simply buy back their bags of this centralized, non-fungible shitcoin.


We might never know exactly what did lead to the loss of the coins from CC.

I know fungibility is one of the key facts in Crypto. But what are the actions right now ?

Sure the foundation could just do nothing and let the markets collapse when the hacker is selling, but how would that help anyone involved.

In a true decentralized way, there is no possibilty to just hardfork and move on like ETH did.

How I get it is, that the devs try to flag the accounts and make it at least harder to sell the stolen coins. They can just help sending those mosaics, but anyone could develop such a tool and send mosaics. Whether it helps the exchanges in the longrun is not in the hands of the foundation. But that´s a good thing. They can´t "solve" this issue, but doing their best.

I would love to hear your solution/way to do it better



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January 26, 2018, 10:58:04 PM
 #35366

We might never know exactly what did lead to the loss of the coins from CC.

I know fungibility is one of the key facts in Crypto. But what are the actions right now ?

Sure the foundation could just do nothing and let the markets collapse when the hacker is selling, but how would that help anyone involved.

In a true decentralized way, there is no possibilty to just hardfork and move on like ETH did.

How I get it is, that the devs try to flag the accounts and make it at least harder to sell the stolen coins. They can just help sending those mosaics, but anyone could develop such a tool and send mosaics. Whether it helps the exchanges in the longrun is not in the hands of the foundation. But that´s a good thing. They can´t "solve" this issue, but doing their best.

I would love to hear your solution/way to do it better

The best (re)action "right now" is doing nothing.

Don't try to "help."  That is counterproductive.

Those who formerly had NEM on a vulnerable exchange deserve to lose their coins.  They are by definition weak hands for letting someone take their coins.

Helping them with convoluted, unworkable tainting nonsense only encourages them to make the same mistake again.

They need tough love so they learn a lesson, not indulgence so they learn to depend on bailouts.

The best thing is for the stolen coins to be redistributed into stronger hands.  The attacker has already taken the first step by helping himself to the weaklings' coins.

The next step is to sell them off and hope NEM is antifragile enough to survive and emerge stronger from the harsh lessons in security and fungibility.

The hacker or whatever must be rewarded for finding the vulnerability, or it will discourage others from pen-testing.  The mechanism for that to happen is for those with empty bags to pay the hacker to refill them.  The re-buyers will thus have more skin in the game and not be so greedy and careless in the future.  That goes for the exchange as well as its customers.

NEM devs and community must also work on making their coin fungible and their network permissionless and decentralized.

But they don't want to do that.  Every architectural and organizational governance design decision shows NEM is fully intended to be the vanity project of one Satoshi-wannabe guy.

If Bitcoin can recover from dozens of MtGoxes and be stronger than ever WTF is NEM's excuse for treating its users like little babies who must be mollycoddled and protected from the consequences of their poor decisions?

Look to Bitcoin's history for an example of leaderless governance and antifragility to emulate.  Look to Monero for an example of 100% fungible (IE cannot be tainted) coins moving through a permissionless (IE can't be evil) network.


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January 26, 2018, 11:27:11 PM
 #35367

I wanted to send XEM today and the nano wallet showed me the message "failure timestamp to far in the future". What does it mean?
First I thought it is because the node I was connected to is not synchronized. But I switched a few times and each time the message arose.

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nemwanderer
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January 26, 2018, 11:35:43 PM
 #35368

We might never know exactly what did lead to the loss of the coins from CC.

I know fungibility is one of the key facts in Crypto. But what are the actions right now ?

Sure the foundation could just do nothing and let the markets collapse when the hacker is selling, but how would that help anyone involved.

In a true decentralized way, there is no possibilty to just hardfork and move on like ETH did.

How I get it is, that the devs try to flag the accounts and make it at least harder to sell the stolen coins. They can just help sending those mosaics, but anyone could develop such a tool and send mosaics. Whether it helps the exchanges in the longrun is not in the hands of the foundation. But that´s a good thing. They can´t "solve" this issue, but doing their best.

I would love to hear your solution/way to do it better

The best (re)action "right now" is doing nothing.

Don't try to "help."  That is counterproductive.

Those who formerly had NEM on a vulnerable exchange deserve to lose their coins.  They are by definition weak hands for letting someone take their coins.

Helping them with convoluted, unworkable tainting nonsense only encourages them to make the same mistake again.

They need tough love so they learn a lesson, not indulgence so they learn to depend on bailouts.

The best thing is for the stolen coins to be redistributed into stronger hands.  The attacker has already taken the first step by helping himself to the weaklings' coins.

The next step is to sell them off and hope NEM is antifragile enough to survive and emerge stronger from the harsh lessons in security and fungibility.

The hacker or whatever must be rewarded for finding the vulnerability, or it will discourage others from pen-testing.  The mechanism for that to happen is for those with empty bags to pay the hacker to refill them.  The re-buyers will thus have more skin in the game and not be so greedy and careless in the future.  That goes for the exchange as well as its customers.

NEM devs and community must also work on making their coin fungible and their network permissionless and decentralized.

But they don't want to do that.  Every architectural and organizational governance design decision shows NEM is fully intended to be the vanity project of one Satoshi-wannabe guy.

If Bitcoin can recover from dozens of MtGoxes and be stronger than ever WTF is NEM's excuse for treating its users like little babies who must be mollycoddled and protected from the consequences of their poor decisions?

Look to Bitcoin's history for an example of leaderless governance and antifragility to emulate.  Look to Monero for an example of 100% fungible (IE cannot be tainted) coins moving through a permissionless (IE can't be evil) network.

A little harsh, no? But your logic is damned sound. Harsh truths for a HODLer of my scale.

I’d like to see gentlemand’s response to this.

I do agree that the NEM team congratulating themselves on this is a bit ridiculous. But equally it isn’t their fault and they’re just trying to help. Remember that NEM is far more commercial a project than BTC and accordingly will have more sympathy and centralized governance you rail against.

What do others here think?
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January 26, 2018, 11:42:47 PM
 #35369



The best (re)action "right now" is doing nothing.

Don't try to "help."  That is counterproductive.


I agree with him
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January 26, 2018, 11:43:06 PM
 #35370

I wanted to send XEM today and the nano wallet showed me the message "failure timestamp to far in the future". What does it mean?
First I thought it is because the node I was connected to is not synchronized. But I switched a few times and each time the message arose.

Check you computer time or set it to automaticly sync with internet time Smiley

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January 26, 2018, 11:46:51 PM
Merited by suky321 (10), jkoil (4)
 #35371

To the people worried about fungibility, they need to remember that this blacklist via tagging is not centrally enforceable. It is an opt-in tool that exchanges can use to avoid stolen XEM at THEIR discretion. NEM foundation can not enforce this blacklist so it's not a problem in relation to centralization.

As far as how the tagging might work, I would assume they might exempt known legit addresses like exchanges or community funds etc which would be trivial to do. I also assume they will not flag small amounts. Any innocent accounts that receive stolen funds and are flagged could simply surrender the stolen funds they received to have the tag removed. They could even automate all of this.

1) An account receives say 100+ stolen XEM.
2) System then flags the account via mosaic and includes a link to a PSA about the tag in the transactions message.
3) The PSA (public service announcement) explains instructions on where to return the stolen funds.
4) Account holder sends stolen funds to recovery account.
5) Flag is removed from account. In reality they can't automatically remove the flag so they could set a second flag that designates the account was cleaned. Or they could be sent enough of the mosaic to allow it to be removed manually.

Definitely feasible and an interesting way to address the issue of stolen funds.
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January 27, 2018, 01:01:57 AM
 #35372

All of you act like there won't be blockchain analysts hired by the exchanges and other people with heavy bags monitoring the movement of these coins.

Relax, it was the exchange's fault and any attempt at cashing out these coins will immediately reveal who it was. Might as well call these coins as good as burned.
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January 27, 2018, 01:07:44 AM
 #35373

Im hoping that the price would be stable . NEM platform would be in full swing and should dapps adapt its platform, and this would drive developers swoop down and use it.
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January 27, 2018, 01:12:51 AM
 #35374

any attempt at cashing out these coins will immediately reveal who it was

Nope. That's only true if every single exchange, ICO, etc that supports NEM is MANUALLY tracking the stolen XEM and manually blacklisting in real time which is simply not going to happen. Even if so, many exchanges don't require verification so it wouldn't reveal who attempted to cash out.

Even with the tagging system, chances are there will be some exchanges that won't utilize it.
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January 27, 2018, 02:13:55 AM
 #35375

Whoever managed this heist is probably smart enough to outwit a simple tagging system.

I agree that the NEM team should have learned from ETH's mistake in getting involved in a theft.

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Renko
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January 27, 2018, 02:48:00 AM
Last edit: January 27, 2018, 06:49:46 AM by Renko
 #35376

The way I see it, is that this was CoinCheck's fault and they want NEM to do a hardfork to save their asses. If you are the owner of an exchange, you should have your private keys secured in a hardware wallet, cold storage or whatever, not in a word document in your laptop.  NEM's blockchain works flawlessly and that's why I agree that they shouldn't do a hardfork, If something works good, don't touch it. They are helping them with that "Tag system" which is a good idea, but making a fork?? really??
marketone
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January 27, 2018, 02:55:49 AM
 #35377

Whoever managed this heist is probably smart enough to outwit a simple tagging system.

I agree that the NEM team should have learned from ETH's mistake in getting involved in a theft.

Theft has already happened and the people who sold the coin will dump in the market and really the price NEM will drop in the market. It is a very sad to people who are supporting the NEM coin.
ruletheworld
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January 27, 2018, 03:45:16 AM
 #35378


The way I see it, is that this was CoinCheck's fault and they want NEM to do a softfork to save their asses. If you are the owner of an exchange, you should have your private keys secured in a hardware wallet, cold storage or whatever, not in a word document in your laptop.  NEM's blockchain works flawlesly and that's why I agree that they shouldn't do a softfork, If something works good, don't touch it. They are helping them with that "Tag system" wich is a good idea, but making a fork?? really??
Can you explain how you think doing a softfork can reverse this?
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January 27, 2018, 04:32:14 AM
 #35379

We might never know exactly what did lead to the loss of the coins from CC.

I know fungibility is one of the key facts in Crypto. But what are the actions right now ?

Sure the foundation could just do nothing and let the markets collapse when the hacker is selling, but how would that help anyone involved.

In a true decentralized way, there is no possibilty to just hardfork and move on like ETH did.

How I get it is, that the devs try to flag the accounts and make it at least harder to sell the stolen coins. They can just help sending those mosaics, but anyone could develop such a tool and send mosaics. Whether it helps the exchanges in the longrun is not in the hands of the foundation. But that´s a good thing. They can´t "solve" this issue, but doing their best.

I would love to hear your solution/way to do it better

The best (re)action "right now" is doing nothing.

Don't try to "help."  That is counterproductive.

Those who formerly had NEM on a vulnerable exchange deserve to lose their coins.  They are by definition weak hands for letting someone take their coins.

Helping them with convoluted, unworkable tainting nonsense only encourages them to make the same mistake again.

They need tough love so they learn a lesson, not indulgence so they learn to depend on bailouts.

The best thing is for the stolen coins to be redistributed into stronger hands.  The attacker has already taken the first step by helping himself to the weaklings' coins.

The next step is to sell them off and hope NEM is antifragile enough to survive and emerge stronger from the harsh lessons in security and fungibility.

The hacker or whatever must be rewarded for finding the vulnerability, or it will discourage others from pen-testing.  The mechanism for that to happen is for those with empty bags to pay the hacker to refill them.  The re-buyers will thus have more skin in the game and not be so greedy and careless in the future.  That goes for the exchange as well as its customers.

NEM devs and community must also work on making their coin fungible and their network permissionless and decentralized.

But they don't want to do that.  Every architectural and organizational governance design decision shows NEM is fully intended to be the vanity project of one Satoshi-wannabe guy.

If Bitcoin can recover from dozens of MtGoxes and be stronger than ever WTF is NEM's excuse for treating its users like little babies who must be mollycoddled and protected from the consequences of their poor decisions?

Look to Bitcoin's history for an example of leaderless governance and antifragility to emulate.  Look to Monero for an example of 100% fungible (IE cannot be tainted) coins moving through a permissionless (IE can't be evil) network.

A little harsh, no? But your logic is damned sound. Harsh truths for a HODLer of my scale.

I’d like to see gentlemand’s response to this.

I do agree that the NEM team congratulating themselves on this is a bit ridiculous. But equally it isn’t their fault and they’re just trying to help. Remember that NEM is far more commercial a project than BTC and accordingly will have more sympathy and centralized governance you rail against.

What do others here think?

I just don't like the idea of not having compassion for those who lost their Nems. People will make human mistakes, especially when everything seems to be going good. It's not easy to lose money. But forget about crypto, the tone was like saying, "He was walking, got distracted because he noticed a full moon, a criminal saw his distraction, tripped him, landed face first and broke his face and got his wallet stolen. That's good for him for not paying attention, let the stronger one, the criminal that noticed his distraction have the money. He deserves it more."
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January 27, 2018, 05:14:24 AM
Merited by jkoil (4)
 #35380

beside support authorities tracking coins nothing that NEM foundation can and should do

all the responsibility is on the hacked exchange shoulders
and the shoulders of the people who did trust this exchange

blockchain got invented to remove trust out of exchange value
if people decide put trust back in by trust a exchange to protect their coins
then thats their own decision and they are responsible for the consequenses

never ever fork a coin because of external reasons

if i would be the  exchange i would offer the hacker 1 million $ as compensation for show them a security flaw
if he returns the coins

i guess its the only way he can monetize something
and it would be the most easy way situiation is resolved for all involved people

 
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