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Author Topic: Altcoin suggestion: Royen Credits [criticism needed]  (Read 870 times)
PrinceBitcoin
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February 23, 2012, 07:16:18 PM
 #1

I've looked at BitCoin and although it looks very promising, I don't like the idea of mining, nor the maximum of just 21 million .

So I made a concept for an alternative currency which I'll call Royen Credits for now.

I would love to hear criticism for this idea,
and advice on how to launch a new cryptocurrency.
And if someone can think of an even better name, I would appreciate it very much.



The aim of this currency is:

  • Most importantly and ultimately, to prevent massive unwanted unemployment, unpaid employment and bonded labour forever.
  • To be able to transfer money for free.
  • Have a currency that is both wanted and in full circulation.
  • To be able to both scale incrementally as well as decrementally so that no inflation or deflation occurs.
  • Have simple rules anyone can understand.



And of course since it's a cryptocurrency:

  • To have a transparent currency
  • To have a A decentralized currency
  • To have a A P2P currency
  • To able to trade it using FLOSS software



These are the rules so far:

  • If someone holds money in this the currency for too long or lost due to attrition, the money will be spend on startups and new employment.
It's not clear yet how this mechanism will work, but the payment direction will be decided by the holder and the employment and startups lists by the community.

  • All the money in this currency should double in value if too many payments are done in single units (cents). In order to prevent payments done in undoubled money,
all wallets will contain a bit marker. If too many payments are done above 100 units (a single coin),  the money will be halved again and halved money will be frozen in the wallet,
but this is not expected. It is not clear yet how many is too many.

  • In an attempt to do this this new currency will simply start from a single 1bit Royen coin, held by me of course.

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yogi
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February 23, 2012, 07:46:29 PM
 #2

You take my money if I don't spend it, and you half it if I spend too much.

Hmm, maybe I'll just write a bot to constantly make 1 cent payments and you double my money.


LoupGaroux
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February 23, 2012, 08:00:03 PM
 #3

This is very close to the other alt.absurd currency that was announced last month- the Occu, pet currency of the Occupy movement. Same halving in value after a fixed period, same silly ass concern for the unemployed and the poor and downtrodden.

If you want to help disadvantaged folks out, creating a new alternate crypto-currency does not seem to be the answer, all this does is create yet another system for manipulators and speculators to further play games with. If you want to help the hungry, make sandwiches and distribute them, if you want to help the unemployed, create jobs, not artificial structures to force artificial value imposition on a contrived value system. Without the accumulation of wealth there is very little opportunity for investment, without investment there is little innovation or expansion, and without those there is no reason for new jobs to be created. Crating a new coin, held by you (of course!) that just gets seized by some undefined authority, or devalued based on timing is counter to your stated goals.

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February 23, 2012, 08:03:06 PM
 #4

Some good ideas but this is highly unfeasible in practice.

Will code for coins, python c#, php(+html, jss, sql) scripts can also pen testing(not a skid) PM me https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=71889.msg813212#msg813212

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PrinceBitcoin
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February 24, 2012, 04:47:34 AM
 #5

You take my money if I don't spend it, and you half it if I spend too much.

Hmm, maybe I'll just write a bot to constantly make 1 cent payments and you double my money.

That wouldn't work.
All money would be "doubled", not just yours, so you'd still end up with less money, but you're able to make smaller payments.
But thanks for the idea, I wouldn't want the quantifier to go to infinity, because of a single bot in a community of a million.

all the money in the world =
1 1 bit cent =
2 2 bit cents =
4 3 bit cents =
8 4 bit cents =
16 5 bit cents

and so forth.
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February 24, 2012, 04:52:24 AM
 #6

Without mining what prevents double spends.

I won't address the lunacy of the other points.  For the sake of argument lets pretend they work, are wonderful, and are necessary for human evolution.

No mining = no consensus.  No consensus = no ability to ensure coins haven't be spend not just 2x but infinite number of times.
PrinceBitcoin
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February 24, 2012, 05:14:17 AM
 #7

Without mining what prevents double spends.

I won't address the lunacy of the other points.  For the sake of argument lets pretend they work, are wonderful, and are necessary for human evolution.

No mining = no consensus.  No consensus = no ability to ensure coins haven't be spend not just 2x but infinite number of times.

What are double spends and how do they occur?
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Gerald Davis


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February 24, 2012, 05:22:33 AM
 #8

Wow?

I spend x with you, I spend the same x with someone else.  I get 2x the product and both sellers got left with the same coins.
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February 24, 2012, 05:44:58 AM
 #9

But with Royen Credits, both sellers would have their holdings cut in half, so nobody loses!

And if the buyer makes only small double payments, then he can double his money!

Wheee... this is fun!

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PrinceBitcoin
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February 24, 2012, 07:11:36 AM
 #10

Wow?

I spend x with you, I spend the same x with someone else.  I get 2x the product and both sellers got left with the same coins.

So what does Bitcoin do to prevent this from happening?
And how does Bitcoin prevent anyone from spending fake coins?

From what I've read so far, the second transaction will be considered invalid. My currency will do the same.
I'm not sure what Bitcoin does to prevent both products delivered, but you certainly will be given a bad rating as a costumer, thus losing trust from other potential sellers.

Thank you for your criticism! Smiley
PrinceBitcoin
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February 24, 2012, 08:29:12 AM
 #11

But with Royen Credits, both sellers would have their holdings cut in half, so nobody loses!

And if the buyer makes only small double payments, then he can double his money!

Wheee... this is fun!

If a buyer has 5 6bit-cents and double-pays 4 6bit cents for 8 products, all second transactions will be considerd invalid,
You'll get 4 double-spending points, making you an unreliable costumer and because so many mini-transactions have been made,
you can't spend your last 6bit cent until both you and the new seller are then focrced to use 7bit transactions.
Thus you'll have 2 7bit cents, which is worth 1 6bit cent. You cannot double your money by spending small amounts of it!

Thanks for your criticism!  Smiley
RaggedMonk
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February 24, 2012, 09:17:49 AM
 #12

1. Imposing a "tax" in an alt chain that regularly reduces the number of coins in an address by a percentage is technically possible, but is effectively the exact same thing as inflation (just adding more coins, making existing coins worth slightly less). 

2. The problem with trying to make a cryptocurrency to help unemployment or poverty is that you need a way to certify that each person only gets one "share".  If you add money to every address, anyone can just generate millions of addresses and get a much larger amount than any honest actors.

3.  Why do you want no inflation or delfation to occur?  Do you understand this means having a fixed number of coins, forever?

4.  It is impossible to know which coins were lost, and which ones are being saved.

5. People are stupid.  "Simple rules that anyone can understand" is an overambitious goal.  Not everyone understands cryptographic hashing, so many will not understand your currency, regardless of how simple it is.

6. If you "tax" saving, people would just transfer back and forth between two accounts to keep coins "fresh". 

7.  If you want to launch your own alt-chain, read and understand the Bitcoin source code.
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February 24, 2012, 09:20:18 AM
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Quote from: PrinceBitcoin link=topic=65923.msg766049#msg766049
What are double spends and how do they occur?
You'll need to understand some more of the technical details of bitcoin's operation before you can think clearly about this.  The seminal bitcoin paper (google for "satoshi nakamoto paper") is a good start.  Many of the things you propose would be hard to implement in a bitcoin-style framework.

As for your question about how to create one, someone will have to implement it in software, someone will have to market it, someone will have to develop user-friendly tools for manipulating and tracking it.  You've got your work cut out for you.
PrinceBitcoin
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February 24, 2012, 11:41:07 AM
 #14


Quote
1. Imposing a "tax" in an alt chain that regularly reduces the number of coins in an address by a percentage is technically possible, but is effectively the exact same thing as inflation (just adding more coins, making existing coins worth slightly less).


I don't understand this.

Quote
2. The problem with trying to make a cryptocurrency to help unemployment or poverty is that you need a way to certify that each person only gets one "share".  If you add money to every address, anyone can just generate millions of addresses and get a much larger amount than any honest actors.


You can add millions of addresses, but as long noone wants to send you money, you get nothing.
The holder has to pay, but he gets to decide whom he wants to pay. If he or she chooses none, then the decision will be made by the community.

Quote
3.  Why do you want no inflation or delfation to occur?  Do you understand this means having a fixed number of coins, forever?


Yes! The world would have 1bit Royen coin forever! It will be the total size of the economy forever.
If the world needs two coins, the Royen coin gets split and the world will have two 2bit Royen coins, worth one 1bit Royen coin.

Quote
4. It is impossible to know which coins were lost, and which ones are being saved.


Both apply to the same rules. Keep them too long and they will go to the job market. That way, no coins will be lost forever preventing it from being a deflationary currency.

Quote
5. People are stupid.  "Simple rules that anyone can understand" is an overambitious goal.  Not everyone understands cryptographic hashing, so many will not understand your currency, regardless of how simple it is.


True, I however meant, rules that make sense. For example the Occcu, I don't understand the reasoning behind adding 10.000 coins to your wallet. Or why do people get money for simply having lots of GPU?
Or why divding the bitcoins to a quadrillion? I don't consider that readable with the type of numerals we use. It's also psychologicaly unsound for me and I'm sure it will be for others, because if I have to trade
in bitcoins it keeps making me feel I will never have that much money if I spend it.

Quote
6. If you "tax" saving, people would just transfer back and forth between two accounts to keep coins "fresh". 


Yeah, I immediately thought of that problem too. I'm thinking of a mechanism that if you get caught doing that, you are fined for double and someone else or the community decides who will be employed with that money.

Quote
7. If you want to launch your own alt-chain, read and understand the Bitcoin source code.


Yeah, I'm looking at it. Is the Bitcoin's client source code all the source code that's needed?


Thanks for your criticisms.
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February 24, 2012, 12:02:32 PM
 #15

"Mining" or hashing is a crytocurrency's base and it solves problems such as the security of the coins within, distribution of the coins to people (How would you deem someone worthy of the coins?) and the case of getting 'paid' for 'working' (else there'll be no value to the coins unless you prepare to back the coins up with your own money). I highly suggest you go read up the Bitcoin fundamentals.

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Gerald Davis


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February 24, 2012, 12:06:04 PM
 #16

So what does Bitcoin do to prevent this from happening?
And how does Bitcoin prevent anyone from spending fake coins?

Simple version that is what mining does.

Also what is "first" and "second" with a distributed network.

I send transaction A to you (and thus half the network)
I send transaction B (a double spend of A) to someone else (and thus half the network).

Now half the network thinks A is "first" and half thinks B is "first".  So each half thinks the other is invalid.

Starting to see the problem.

Have you even read Satoshi paper? 
From what I've read so far, the second transaction will be considered invalid. My currency will do the same.
I'm not sure what Bitcoin does to prevent both products delivered, but you certainly will be given a bad rating as a costumer, thus losing trust from other potential sellers.

Thank you for your criticism! Smiley
[/quote]
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February 24, 2012, 02:47:26 PM
 #17

about your suggestion to abolish miners:

True without miners things might be better but the miners are needed. The Blockchain is the consens of the network. For every block there needs to be work involved because if there wasn't everyone could just create as much blocks as he wanted and there wouldn't be any consens. There also needs to be a block reward atleast until transaction fees become higher because why would someone solve blocks if he doesn't get anything for it. And how do you want to put the first money in circulation?

//edit just read that you want to hold the first coin.

So you decide who gets them :/
PrinceBitcoin
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February 24, 2012, 02:50:48 PM
 #18

Quote from: PrinceBitcoin link=topic=65923.msg766049#msg766049
What are double spends and how do they occur?
You'll need to understand some more of the technical details of bitcoin's operation before you can think clearly about this.  The seminal bitcoin paper (google for "satoshi nakamoto paper") is a good start.  Many of the things you propose would be hard to implement in a bitcoin-style framework.

As for your question about how to create one, someone will have to implement it in software, someone will have to market it, someone will have to develop user-friendly tools for manipulating and tracking it.  You've got your work cut out for you.

Thanks. Looks a daunting task then.
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