And we have another Bitfinex Hookey THIEVING Short Squeeze!

[JorgeStolfi]

If everyone must *assume* crap like this is going on, then how could a single exchange take place? Next time you try to buy a coffee from your local BTC coffee house, what's to keep them from taking your BTC and not giving you a coffee? In the end, we all must have trust.

If the coffee house refuses to give you the coffee, you can call the cops etc..  That is what keeps the frequency of coffee scams to a fairly tolerable low level in real life.  Exchange owners have no such deterrent.  They can do, without risk of punishment, everything that lawyers lawmakers and regulators have found necessary to prohibit to stock exchange owners, over the last 100 years.  Why should't they do it?

EDIT: wrong word

[1714038415]

1714038415

[1714038415]

1714038415

[ElectricMucus]

They can do, without risk of punishment, everything that lawyers and regulators have found necessary to prohibit to stock exchange owners, over the last 100 years.  Why should't they do it?

The invisible hand of the free market™




not

[MatTheCat]

The invisible hand of the free market™


not

Hey, now that I know for sure that Bitfinex cheats it's customers by trading with insider knowledge and front running market orders ahead of a big bunch of stop losses etc, instead of just strongly suspecting that they do it, that will be the last time I transfer a 20 BTC pile or whatever over to that rat hole. Isn't that the invisible hand of the free market™ at work?  

[ElectricMucus]

Well you are still complaining, so no it probably didn't work.

And such, do you have the impression that bitfinex is losing customers at large? I don't.
So even if you were smart enough to gtfo that does not say others do.

Bitcoins psychopathic captains of industry know their flock must maintain the illusion of libertarianism at work at all costs and they have become very efficient at exploiting it.

[MatTheCat]

Well you are still complaining, so no it probably didn't work.

And such, do you have the impression that bitfinex is losing customers at large? I don't.
So even if you were smart enough to gtfo that does not say others do.

Bitcoins psychopathic captains of industry know their flock must maintain the illusion of libertarianism at work at all costs and they have become very efficient at exploiting it.

I was only kidding.

I shall never trade on Bitfinex again, but Bitfinex will grow and grow.  I have even gotten into discussions with people on other sites where they more or less acknowledge that insider jiggery pokery is to be expected on an unregulated exchange and accept these things as simply being part of the game. It's gambling, one of the most addictive activities known to man and Bitfinex offer all the means and tools combined with the volume to make that gambling game several times sexier than it is on a straightforward exchange such as Stamp with its very limited trading options. Of course people are going to go for it even when they basically know beforehand that the exchange is dodgy as fuck.

Look at MtGox. Even after they admitted they were insolvent by suspending even BTC withdrawals, there were plenty on this forum who piled funds onto Gox to bag themselves some Goxcoin in the chance that they just might be getting cut-price Bitcoins. It would take a huge scandal coming to light to drive people away from Bitfinex in numbers which is something that I certainly couldn't write off transpiring over the course of time, but for now, I would suggest plenty more upside for BFX to come.

[thExit]

Front-running is a serious offense, illegal and prosecuted (in regulated markets) as it gives the broker/dealer the upper hand- you simply cannot win when forces of this kind are put to work. I've read through most of this thread today, except for the last page, so I will withdraw from further comments, but if those allegations are proven right, there shouldn't be a single person dealing with Bitfinex. On the other hand, if using comparison to Forex/stock market exchanges, I understand the practices of brokers who are Market Makers (versus ECN), and if you decide to deal with them you need to accept their terms and conditions (most of those Market Makers do not guarantee your SL to be respected) and the fact that their price quotes may be different than price quotes of other brokers (MM and ECN). In other words, in extreme situations where price action is very quick there may be some problems with execution, to speak generally. This is a broad topic, widely discussed, along with some accusations of manipulation (which came to be true). Just think of it, price goes wild, and you have some orders standing. For them to get filled, you need a counterparty. If there is none, you as a broker have two options: 1) fill those orders yourself and be at a loss or 2) manipulate... Which one would you choose? It depends what kind of broker are you In cryptocurrency trading it looks like there are no "what kind of broker am I", there seems to be only one kind of brokers. But trust me, even if they tried to do their job as honestly as everyone would like them to, there are numerous opportunities for a mishap.

I am really curious to see how this debate ends up.

[desticy]

It seems like you don't like bitfinex  
Why don't you change your signature.

And also, I was thinking of how day trading or something of this nature would work. Lets say a btc is bought for 500 and then sold at 510 a few min later. Then a btc is bought in at 490. I am just thinking that the person that gained from this quick trading made a profit (at a cost of whoever bought it). I feel like the exchanges might have to eat those costs (so maybe they just try to avoid eating all the extra costs).

This is just a thought and I do not know about how bitfinex works (seem complex). But everyone gotta do whats best for them in the end.

I don't like Bitfinex. Inviting people to trade Bitfinex where they can swim with sharks and wrestle with vipers is hardly a ringing endorsement of the place, I wouldn't have thought.

But there is another stone wall example of crooked Bitfinex in action. There was around 600 BTC in between $599 and $605, with all the orders of course at different price levels. Yet here is the trading for the break above 600 btc:

02:00:58 602.29      0.1
02:00:56 600.3        1.00626
02:00:55 608.13      319.168
02:00:24 600          255.374
02:00:17 599.91      0.01

In green, is the Ask wall which my stop loss order was sitting behind. There was as any reasonably minded person could imagine, a whole array of other double figure and single figure and indeed decimal bids in between 600 and 608. Why therefore was the next 319.168 of bids all sold at 608.13, my paltry 6 BTC amongst them when there was a whole raft of bids in between $600 and $608!?

BITFINEX CAUGHT RED HANDED STEALING!

Heard that Bitfinex is located in Hongkong, GBL run away last year was in Hongkong. and more, 796, mycoin, ANX, these swindlers exchanges in Hongkong, Hongkong is not reliable...

[manfred]

...

Heard that Bitfinex is located in Hongkong, GBL run away last year was in Hongkong. and more, 796, mycoin, ANX, these swindlers exchanges in Hongkong, Hongkong is not reliable...

Bitfinix has a virtual office in Hong Kong thats the address: Room 1601, 16th Floor, The Sun's Group Centre, 200 Gloucester Rd, Hong Kong it a Proxy Management Consultants firm. To my knowledge it is run from some garage somewhere in France and its doggy as fuck.
Looking at the number of exchanges which have run away with customers funds over the years not only the once from Hong Kong listed above, its a given that you gona to get goxxed with this douchebags, its only a matter of time.

........Now even a 5 years old retard knows that..........symptom of douchebagness, but also of the fact that his IQ is smaller than his shoe size............

Then I will take your 10 BTC and give them to people that will cheer up to your stupidity.
You are a kid that doesn't even know what he's talking about.
If you don't like Bitfinex why do you keep trading on it, you retarded prick?
As we had nothing better to do than stealing candies from retarded kids like you, you don't even have 3 btc (2.5 to be exact) in your pocket.

Grow up and learn to take the blame of your own stupidity instead of insulting others.

Just get a life.

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team

Would you sent this guys your passport details and all other info to get fully cert. ?

[JorgeStolfi]

Bitfinix has a virtual office in Hong Kong thats the address: Room 1601, 16th Floor, The Sun's Group Centre, 200 Gloucester Rd, Hong Kong it a Proxy Management Consultants firm. To my knowledge it is run from some garage somewhere in France and its doggy as fuck.
Looking at the number of exchanges which have run away with customers funds over the years not only the once from Hong Kong listed above, its a given that you gona to get goxxed with this douchebags, its only a matter of time.

It is not easy to spot a scammer, because the first requirement for that "profession" is to sound and look respectable to the eyes of the intended victims, whether they be old pensioners or computer nerds.

One way to protect against scammers is to know their identity and check their background for prior scams, lawsuits, failed enterprises, etc.  If the guy wants to remain anonymous, subtract 500 points. 

Another way is to make sure that the guy can go to jail if he scams you.  If the contracts has some "small" holes (like "if X does not work out, we will do as we see fit" or "we promise to try" etc.), assume that the guy will go through them. If the contract leaves some room for interpretation, assume that he will interpret it in the way that maximizes his profit, not yours. If the company is registered in a country where you cannot prosecute them, subtract 500 points. If the company is not regulated, subtract another 500 points.  If it is not audited by professional auditor, or delays due audits, subtract another 500 points. and so on.

There are other symptoms that a scam is in progress, and we have seen them all in MtGOX, months before if finally closed.  The guy starts avoiding customers, gives evasive reassurances that all is well, promises that full answers to their questions will be provided "soon", gives excuses that cannot be verified, throws the blame on others and presents himself as victim, gets angry at those who insist on asking... But by this stage the scam is usually done...

[MatTheCat]

There are other symptoms that a scam is in progress, and we have seen them all in MtGOX, months before if finally closed.  The guy starts avoiding customers, gives evasive reassurances that all is well, promises that full answers to their questions will be provided "soon", gives excuses that cannot be verified, throws the blame on others and presents himself as victim, gets angry at those who insist on asking... But by this stage the scam is usually done...

In Gox's case, I don't think Karpeles' intention was to simply steal everyone's money and let Gox go up in smoke in the public eye. I think his intention was to use his power to ramp and crash the Bitcoin market. He could profit massively from the ramps, and then cover his fractional reserve activities on the crashes....but somehow things got out from under his control.....he could have been attacked by hackers like has been suggested or maybe he just started to lose the ability to totally boss the market. Or maybe, just maybe, he was just a self-destructive weirdo who started out on course of dodgy fake volume market ramping behaviour to enrich himself, but with no feasible get-out plan?

However, I also remember Gox getting all manner of 'seals of approvals' or pseudo audits done when their integrity came under question. I never believed in any of it, but plenty did. Indeed, even during the Goxcoin period, there were people on this forum swearing blind that everything would come good in the end, etc etc.

Perhaps if things went a bit more to Karpeles plan, Gox would still be in operation today, and Karpeles and his chums, Markus and Willy, would be happily ramping and crashing Bitcoin around like crazy, getting even fatter on the proceeds of doing so and nobody would be none the wiser. Operating an unregulated exchange is a permanent cash cow for any unscrupulous individuals with the will, the knowhow, and the means to do so. Providing the insider foul play is kept within limits, and the exchange insiders don't get ambitions which are above their stations and more than they can handle, then an exchange that routinely cheats its customers can be kept running for decades or for however long the asset it is trading remains relevant and everyone can still get funds credited to their accounts returned to them at the end of the day....unless of course the tools which the exchange operators use to front run and/or generate fake volume gets into the 'wrong' hands. I am thinking specifically of the mysterious $100 flash crashes that occurred both on BTC-e and Bitfinex back in Feb 2014, where spot price crashed down to $100 on relatively very low volume, yet many many people who had buy-ins at tranches all the way down to $100 complained that their buy-ins were not triggered. Perhaps one way in which this could happen would be if some accounts had a higher/lower priority of access, or indeed were privy to a whole different level of access to the market action than others. In the 12Hr period that covered the $100 flash crash, BFX volume was around 24K BTC. High, but nothing spectacular considering the $600 price flash crash (Bitstamp registered 40K of volume on their corresponding panic sell off down to just $540 during the same 12Hr volume bar). It just doesn't make sense to me that this would be triggered by normal traders panicking or some whale thumbing in an extra 0 on an intended 800 BTC market sell (if it was, then the same whale made the same mistake on BTC-e as well). For me, this had to be some kind of attack, whereby the hackers got their hands on the programs that the exchange insiders use to front run, paint the tape, fake volume etc. Perhaps the fake volume responsible for crashing market is the reason why many real traders never got their limit orders filled although from what I read plenty leverage long traders did get wiped out or have their Stop Loss orders filled, which results in real trade volume occurring, which along with some real traders panic selling real volume into the flash crash, means that some real traders actually did get their limit orders filled?

A very very strange one that happened on two exchanges triggering panic sells on the other exchanges which only got down a mere fraction of BTC-e and BFX, which clearly had to be under some hackers control. I also seem to remember just a week or so before this crashes occurred, some forum poster called 'BitcoinSteve' coming on here and warning that the end of Bitcoin was nigh, but wanting BTC donations for access to his insider info.

[JorgeStolfi]

In Gox's case, I don't think Karpeles' intention was to simply steal everyone's money and let Gox go up in smoke in the public eye. I think his intention was to use his power to ramp and crash the Bitcoin market. He could profit massively from the ramps, and then cover his fractional reserve activities on the crashes....but somehow things got out from under his control.....he could have been attacked by hackers like has been suggested or maybe he just started to lose the ability to totally boss the market.

I agree that the collapse of MtGOX must have been due to a combination of unethical insider trading/manipulation and bad luck.  I disagree on the details, however. I don't think that Mark had the power to create the rally; as you must know already, I believe the rally was real, due to the opening of the Chinese market, and "Markus"/"Willy"  was merely doing arbitrage with China, possibly with non-existent money.  And the crash was due to the Chinese Government's decree.  But I wonder whether we will know the truth some day.

However, I also remember Gox getting all manner of 'seals of approvals' or pseudo audits done when their integrity came under question.

Indeed. I am quite convinced that there were several other people, besides Mark and Gonzague, who knew what was going on inside MtGOX, and profited from it.

Indeed, even during the Goxcoin period, there were people on this forum swearing blind that everything would come good in the end, etc etc.

Just as there were many people on this forum swearing that all was fine with Neo & Bee, weeks after Danny Brewster had disappeared with all the money that was left.  Some even went as far as claiming that they had flown from Greece to Cyprus, visited the offices, and saw that everybody was still there working as usual.

Hey, what is wrong with telling a few lies in order to convince other people to buy, while I sell?  What is anonymity good for, if not for that?

[CoolStoryBro]

So, instead admitting that Finex API have some flaws/bugs and not sending data to btwisdom correctly (as this seems the only reason for that strange behavior) AND providing proper data, Finex just coming up with that "hatter gonna hate" line?

And what about that "we will reward these 10btc to the traders which actually did these trades" - wtf is that? Why should you reward someone like this? I guess it was just a line to say that you don't need these money personally, but why to spend it to these 3rd parties? (I know these 10btc newer existed anyways, but still).

People posting there claiming that MTC is crazy and so on - while it could be fun to blame him, it explain nothing to the original topic.  

I also find surprising that there was no price data for the price between 600-608.
Even if there a bull which put a big 300BTC+ buy order at price 599 and lets say some sellers pulled their orders at 600-608 range, I still find it hardly believing that all 600-608 sell orders were pulled off.

The only logical explanation is that prices getting grouped before posting, but then it should be changed, for more transparency. And what are the rules of such grouping?

[MatTheCat]

The only logical explanation is that prices getting grouped before posting, but then it should be changed, for more transparency. And what are the rules of such grouping?

Someone posted that the data they have shows a whole raft of orders being executed from $600 right through to $608.13. But that doesn't change the fact that my stop loss was just a shade above $600, yet never got triggered until the very top spike of those front-run and repackaged grouped together 319 BTC orders. that took price to $608.13, the exact price where my stop orders were triggered, taking me right away from break even territory and right into the red. It was only a small trade. It would only ever have been a small trade as my trust for Bitfinex evaporated quite some time ago. This is far from being the first time I have seen this sort of shit on this exchange.

Also, now that Bitcoin has predictably started to correct, I can't help thinking how convenient it is that BFX have flushed out a few short-sellers, who BFX have probably loaned out Bitcoin to, that they may not even have. It was obvious that Bitcoin was going to correct a bit from $600, so who are those 'whales' with the front running privileges super fast internet connections who were piling into Bitcoin with the large market orders which bought out the Ask walls and pushed Short Stop Loss Orders up to top of market spikes, right at the top of an obvious 'suckers rally'? It is all fucking bullshit. It was no 'sucker's rally'. That rally was about squeezing out shorts. BFX are hookey as fuck. They know where the shorts have accumulated. They know how many Stop Loss Orders have been set. They have the means and the knowhow to farm those stops. They try to brush these accusations off with "Hurr, Durr, You Cant Prove Nothing, Hurrr, wanna 10 BTC bet, Durrr" "Hey, we have bigger fish to fry than steal sweets from little kiddies". They claim that they already earn millions in exchange fees and shit, so why would they feel the need to misbehave in these ways! Erm, because from doing so, Bitfinex just made over 8* the profit from my trade than an honest exchange would have from exchange fees alone, not to mention the fact that had they not farmed my Short Stop Loss, and a good handful of other trader's Short Stop Losses, we would all still be short as the market finally recedes proper, and perhaps Bitfinex are to some extent offering Naked Short Positions which they can't really afford to see too many of succeed? The exact same games are also played on leveraged longs, naturally. I think Bitfinex are thieving robbing cunts who are in the position of operating their own unregulated exchange with zero oversight, and are taking the liberty to multiply their own earnings by a factor of 10, 20, or perhaps even more.

[CoolStoryBro]

Someone posted that the data they have shows a whole raft of orders being executed from $600 right through to $608.13. But that doesn't change the fact that my stop loss was just a shade above $600, yet never got triggered until the very top spike of those front-run and repackaged grouped together 319 BTC orders. that took price to $608.13, the exact price where my stop orders were triggered, taking me right away from break even territory and right into the red. It was only a small trade. It would only ever have been a small trade as my trust for Bitfinex evaporated quite some time ago. This is far from being the first time I have seen this sort of shit on this exchange.

My possible explanation would be like this:

buys below market price executes on priority over stop losses (which is quite logical)

I.e. if there is sell order 30BTC at 600 and sell order 20BTC at 602 and sell orer 10BTC and 608

your stop loss for short 6BTC position placed at 601

Now someone executes buy @599 for 52BTC

he got filled on priority as 30@600+20@602 +2@608
then stop losses start being filled

say there is only one stop loss and it's yours, then you will get 6@608

and there will be 2BTC sell order left @ 608


I don't know if this correct. But that could possibly explain why your stop took place so high.
However as long as there is no price log there, it looks really strange.

Perhaps they group prices in batches, but what are the principles for this grouping?
If such grouping exists, Finex should remove it to increase transparency for their customers.

[MatTheCat]

Someone posted that the data they have shows a whole raft of orders being executed from $600 right through to $608.13. But that doesn't change the fact that my stop loss was just a shade above $600, yet never got triggered until the very top spike of those front-run and repackaged grouped together 319 BTC orders. that took price to $608.13, the exact price where my stop orders were triggered, taking me right away from break even territory and right into the red. It was only a small trade. It would only ever have been a small trade as my trust for Bitfinex evaporated quite some time ago. This is far from being the first time I have seen this sort of shit on this exchange.

My possible explanation would be like this:

buys below market price executes on priority over stop losses (which is quite logical)

I.e. if there is sell order 30BTC at 600 and sell order 20BTC at 602 and sell orer 10BTC and 608

your stop loss for short 6BTC position placed at 601

Now someone executes buy @599 for 52BTC

he got filled on priority as 30@600+20@602 +2@608
then stop losses start being filled

say there is only one stop loss and it's yours, then you will get 6@608

and there will be 2BTC sell order left @ 608

Such an explanation would make sense. But I would add to that explanation, that the whale market buyer(s):

a) Has front running access
b) Knows where the bulk of the Stops are
c) Probably then sells to the Stops at a mark-up
and
d) Is probably the exchange itself

I was watching the trades happening, with palm over face with resigned sigh as I watched the obvious rally engineered to take out short traders but I have had one very bad experience trading with leverage after I decided not to trade with Stops, figuring that doing so was just helping the exchange to rip me off. So this time I kept my short in place, knowing it would be triggered by the engineered rally. I indeed made a post on 'Wall Observer' Thread stating that I believed that this was all that the 'break out' would transpire to be. So when my stop loss got punted away up the Ask wall, despite their being literally hundreds of BTC in the wall between 600-608 just a millisecond beforehand, I wasn't all like "Oh, Shock horror! How could this have possibly happened to me!?" I was more like, "yep, typical Bitfinex". I was angry, but not surprised in the slightest.

[Pale Phoenix]

Someone posted that the data they have shows a whole raft of orders being executed from $600 right through to $608.13.

So, in other words, Bitfinex wasn't caught "red handed" at all, and the "proof" in the OP is no longer operative. Check.

Windbags like you are the reason no one listens when actual shit goes down.

[MatTheCat]

Someone posted that the data they have shows a whole raft of orders being executed from $600 right through to $608.13.

So, in other words, Bitfinex wasn't caught "red handed" at all, and the "proof" in the OP is no longer operative. Check.

Windbags like you are the reason no one listens when actual shit goes down.

The fact that my Stop Order was punted from $600.11 when there were dozens and actually hundreds of BTC in the ask wall between my Stop Order and the $608 price tag I got hit with in the end, right at the very peak of the grouped together 319 trade, is very very suspicious. The explanation is that apparently there were Ask walls getting pulled and market orders all going in right in the split second between my Stop (and no doubt countless other trader's Stops) getting triggered and my Stop being executed. This might all well be the case, but I would suggest that it is the exchange itself who is responsible for such 'split second' interventions. It isn't like this is the first time this happened on BFX. They argue that they have better things to do than steal sweets from kiddies, but I would dispute that when they are stealing lots of sweets from dozens of kiddies on a daily basis, that they increase their profit margins several fold. They have the market information and front running capabilities to wring a bit more USD out of it's customers, and from I have seen, that is exactly what they do.

I can't prove it, but I know that this exchange is shady as fuck.

[PirateHatForTea]

So your argument at this point seems to be 'They can do it, so they are doing it'.

Giancarlo has behaved abominably and his 10BTC reward for people involved in the trades between600 and 608 is ridiculous as well - I don't think he's thought clearly about incentives - hell I'd swear black and blue I was a party to that transaction, in exchange for 5 BTC!

Giancarlo, as annoying as MatTheCat is I think you owe it to your other customers to apologize for revealing his balance, and promise never to do that to any of your other customers. That is was a relatively small amount is not relevant, there are no circumstances in which it is OK to reveal, and you are coming across like a 15 year old boy even more than Mat does.

FWIW my stops have always executed well past their trigger points, this may simply be due to the design of BFX's stop triggering system and how it decides to queue trades upon trigger. Clippage should be expected, and I find it surprising how butthurt you are about an $8 difference, I would expect this when the market moves quickly, which as you should know, is a frequent occurrence in BTC.

[MatTheCat]

FWIW my stops have always executed well past their trigger points, this may simply be due to the design of BFX's stop triggering system and how it decides to queue trades upon trigger. Clippage should be expected, and I find it surprising how butthurt you are about an $8 difference, I would expect this when the market moves quickly, which as you should know, is a frequent occurrence in BTC.

It is one thing when the market is on the move and totally devouring the Ask walls and stops are triggered $5-$10 bucks beyond the point at which they were set, but quite another when the only logical purpose of the counter trend rally which springs out of low volume bearish conditions, is to trigger stop losses, which are then punted right to the back of the queue of 'other' bids. When the latter happens, and it happens on BFX a lot, it kind of seems a little bit to me like Stop Loss farming.

Question is, are the Stop Farmers operating with inside knowledge and front running access to trade action? I would suggest that they most probably are as this is the only way in which Stop Loss orders could guarantee that they are the primary beneficiaries of their operations. And actually I don't suggest it, I know it.

[jonald_fyookball]

Wow.  Complete unprofessionalism by Bitfinex rep here.
Revealing customer balances and name-calling by
what is supposed to be a major exchange?  Given what
I'm seeing here,  I wouldn't trust these guys to exchange tulip bulbs.

That said, I think trying totrade Bitcoins like stocks or forex
is asking for trouble.  Of course there is going to
be slippage.  its too volatile to be using
stop orders imo.