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Junkbarman
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July 10, 2014, 04:48:35 AM
 #21


So, in theory, a 1.1 TH/s machine will be outdated at some point, it won't keep up?

1.1 THs not "keeping up" isn't the point. Difficulty increases approximately every 2 weeks (2106 blocks). Every machine/farm loses income when the difficulty increases. To continue to earn the same amount of BTC per difficulty adjustment period, you'd need to add new hash to match the difficulty increase... typically 20%.

At this very moment in time, 1.1THs will earn about $20 per day less electricity costs, assuming 100% luck and zero pool fees.

Ok, so as of right now, a blade just maxes out, so adding more blades, just adds more chances, so to speak?

So adding more 1.1 THs machines is basically the same as adding more blades.

I would assume electricity is obvious issues, I used a ton last year.

Remember, what the dormouse said: feed your head.
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July 10, 2014, 11:26:07 AM
 #22


So, in theory, a 1.1 TH/s machine will be outdated at some point, it won't keep up?

1.1 THs not "keeping up" isn't the point. Difficulty increases approximately every 2 weeks (2106 blocks). Every machine/farm loses income when the difficulty increases. To continue to earn the same amount of BTC per difficulty adjustment period, you'd need to add new hash to match the difficulty increase... typically 20%.

At this very moment in time, 1.1THs will earn about $20 per day less electricity costs, assuming 100% luck and zero pool fees.

Ok, so as of right now, a blade just maxes out, so adding more blades, just adds more chances, so to speak?

So adding more 1.1 THs machines is basically the same as adding more blades.

I would assume electricity is obvious issues, I used a ton last year.

What is this 1.1THs blade that you speak of. No such thing exists that I know of.

You need to get passed this idea of adding equipment to maintain your income. It is a vicious circle that doesn't have a reward at the end, these days. A while back, you could take income earned and reinvest in additional mining gear and still stay ahead. Those days are long gone.
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July 10, 2014, 01:13:18 PM
 #23


So, in theory, a 1.1 TH/s machine will be outdated at some point, it won't keep up?

1.1 THs not "keeping up" isn't the point. Difficulty increases approximately every 2 weeks (2106 blocks). Every machine/farm loses income when the difficulty increases. To continue to earn the same amount of BTC per difficulty adjustment period, you'd need to add new hash to match the difficulty increase... typically 20%.

At this very moment in time, 1.1THs will earn about $20 per day less electricity costs, assuming 100% luck and zero pool fees.

Ok, so as of right now, a blade just maxes out, so adding more blades, just adds more chances, so to speak?

So adding more 1.1 THs machines is basically the same as adding more blades.

I would assume electricity is obvious issues, I used a ton last year.

What is this 1.1THs blade that you speak of. No such thing exists that I know of.

You need to get passed this idea of adding equipment to maintain your income. It is a vicious circle that doesn't have a reward at the end, these days. A while back, you could take income earned and reinvest in additional mining gear and still stay ahead. Those days are long gone.

Maintain my income? What do you know about my money and where it comes from?

If I want to throw 5k on something, what is it to you? You have a vested interest in my money all of a sudden? I never asked for financial advice from this topic.

Besides, this is the mining speculation board right? So let's speculate a bit.

What I'm asking is, you can add more blades to a machine or you can add more machines, I only used the 1.1 THs as an example. I saw a machine touting it, wanted to get a bit more "under the hood".

Besides, if I've offended you or stirred you wrong, just move on.

Remember, what the dormouse said: feed your head.
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July 10, 2014, 01:41:35 PM
 #24


So, in theory, a 1.1 TH/s machine will be outdated at some point, it won't keep up?

1.1 THs not "keeping up" isn't the point. Difficulty increases approximately every 2 weeks (2106 blocks). Every machine/farm loses income when the difficulty increases. To continue to earn the same amount of BTC per difficulty adjustment period, you'd need to add new hash to match the difficulty increase... typically 20%.

At this very moment in time, 1.1THs will earn about $20 per day less electricity costs, assuming 100% luck and zero pool fees.

Ok, so as of right now, a blade just maxes out, so adding more blades, just adds more chances, so to speak?

So adding more 1.1 THs machines is basically the same as adding more blades.

I would assume electricity is obvious issues, I used a ton last year.

What is this 1.1THs blade that you speak of. No such thing exists that I know of.

You need to get passed this idea of adding equipment to maintain your income. It is a vicious circle that doesn't have a reward at the end, these days. A while back, you could take income earned and reinvest in additional mining gear and still stay ahead. Those days are long gone.

Maintain my income? What do you know about my money and where it comes from?

If I want to throw 5k on something, what is it to you? You have a vested interest in my money all of a sudden? I never asked for financial advice from this topic.

Besides, this is the mining speculation board right? So let's speculate a bit.

What I'm asking is, you can add more blades to a machine or you can add more machines, I only used the 1.1 THs as an example. I saw a machine touting it, wanted to get a bit more "under the hood".

Besides, if I've offended you or stirred you wrong, just move on.

He's talking about reinvesting your mined income for more mining.

Basically your 1TH/s miner won't make $20 odd bucks a day anymore after each difficulty jump, it decreases every jump, and you need to "invest" in additional mining equipment just to maintain that $20 odd bucks a day.

That's what he's talking about.  Mining income, not your 9 to 5 income.

He's not offended by you, he's giving you sage advice.

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Junkbarman
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July 10, 2014, 01:46:50 PM
 #25


So, in theory, a 1.1 TH/s machine will be outdated at some point, it won't keep up?

1.1 THs not "keeping up" isn't the point. Difficulty increases approximately every 2 weeks (2106 blocks). Every machine/farm loses income when the difficulty increases. To continue to earn the same amount of BTC per difficulty adjustment period, you'd need to add new hash to match the difficulty increase... typically 20%.

At this very moment in time, 1.1THs will earn about $20 per day less electricity costs, assuming 100% luck and zero pool fees.

Ok, so as of right now, a blade just maxes out, so adding more blades, just adds more chances, so to speak?

So adding more 1.1 THs machines is basically the same as adding more blades.

I would assume electricity is obvious issues, I used a ton last year.

What is this 1.1THs blade that you speak of. No such thing exists that I know of.

You need to get passed this idea of adding equipment to maintain your income. It is a vicious circle that doesn't have a reward at the end, these days. A while back, you could take income earned and reinvest in additional mining gear and still stay ahead. Those days are long gone.

Maintain my income? What do you know about my money and where it comes from?

If I want to throw 5k on something, what is it to you? You have a vested interest in my money all of a sudden? I never asked for financial advice from this topic.

Besides, this is the mining speculation board right? So let's speculate a bit.

What I'm asking is, you can add more blades to a machine or you can add more machines, I only used the 1.1 THs as an example. I saw a machine touting it, wanted to get a bit more "under the hood".

Besides, if I've offended you or stirred you wrong, just move on.

He's talking about reinvesting your mined income for more mining.

Basically your 1TH/s miner won't make $20 odd bucks a day anymore after each difficulty jump, it decreases every jump, and you need to "invest" in additional mining equipment just to maintain that $20 odd bucks a day.

That's what he's talking about.  Mining income, not your 9 to 5 income.

He's not offended by you, he's giving you sage advice.

Like i said, I wasn't asking for financial information from anyone. Besides, it's 9:45 am where I'm at, and I'm at home in front of you computer and it's thursday. Maybe that should tell you something before giving unwanted so called "financial advice".

Remember, what the dormouse said: feed your head.
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July 10, 2014, 02:05:14 PM
 #26

@JunkBarman Like I said, he wasn't giving you financial advice, merely "mining for ROI" advice.

You can do whatever you want with your $5k or $10k or $100 million investment.

All we're saying is 1 TH/s miner income isn't constant, and will be making single digit income very soon.

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Junkbarman
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July 10, 2014, 02:55:43 PM
 #27

@ChuckBuck

Exactly, so getting back to my question before all this nonsense.


So 5 ths will be decreasing daily as well then? And the only way to keep up is constantly adding more hardware, correct?

Remember, what the dormouse said: feed your head.
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July 10, 2014, 03:29:22 PM
 #28

@ChuckBuck

Exactly, so getting back to my question before all this nonsense.


So 5 ths will be decreasing daily as well then? And the only way to keep up is constantly adding more hardware, correct?

Exactly.  If you're thinking about the SP30, it looks like a nice piece of hardware, but will never ROI for you unfortunately.  You'll never mine that 8+ back you've invested.

But hey, you'll be supporting the Bitcoin network, you can say you're a mining Bitcoins, and can always sell the equipment later to recoup some of the losses.

This is all without factoring the electrical costs.

FUN!   Cheesy

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xstr8guy
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July 10, 2014, 04:06:14 PM
 #29

@JunkBarman Like I said, he wasn't giving you financial advice, merely "mining for ROI" advice.

You can do whatever you want with your $5k or $10k or $100 million investment.

All we're saying is 1 TH/s miner income isn't constant, and will be making single digit income very soon.

Thank you for trying to reason with this dick! Apparently he still thinks my comment was offensive in some way and doesn't want good advice. If he just read what we wrote, without the chip on his shoulder, he'd have his answers.

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July 10, 2014, 04:12:25 PM
 #30

@JunkBarman Like I said, he wasn't giving you financial advice, merely "mining for ROI" advice.

You can do whatever you want with your $5k or $10k or $100 million investment.

All we're saying is 1 TH/s miner income isn't constant, and will be making single digit income very soon.

Thank you for trying to reason with this dick! Apparently he still thinks my comment was offensive in some way and doesn't want good advice. If he just read what we wrote, without the chip on his shoulder, he'd have his answers.



Nice, welcome to the board today.

Sorry if I'm tired of every thread being the same.

*Insert random mining topic here*

*Insert random mining questions here*

*Insert always leading to same standard response: it's too expensive, you can't afford the miners, they lose money daily, are you an idiot, you didn't even think of electricity, but have a nice day dick  Grin*

I dare you to pick a thread where these doesn't happen anymore.

When did it become this communities JOB to remind everyone how much money they are losing? Talk about chips.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=606783.msg7749092#msg7749092




Remember, what the dormouse said: feed your head.
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July 10, 2014, 04:50:56 PM
 #31

@xtr8guy

Maaaybe you should let go on the fact that your outdated miners aren't giving the cash they once did and upgrade them

But I must warn you that you will never see a ROI, the electricity is expensive, the miners are pretty expensive. So you should think about not quitting your 9 to 5 job.


Just trying to help, Have a Nice Day!  Smiley

Remember, what the dormouse said: feed your head.
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July 10, 2014, 07:01:34 PM
 #32

@xtr8guy

Maaaybe you should let go on the fact that your outdated miners aren't giving the cash they once did and upgrade them

But I must warn you that you will never see a ROI, the electricity is expensive, the miners are pretty expensive. So you should think about not quitting your 9 to 5 job.


Just trying to help, Have a Nice Day!  Smiley
I tried to explain in an earlier post, xstr8guy did as well, but it appears you and he got off on the wrong foot and turned the thread into a pissing contest.

To answer your question, if you maintain a constant hash rate, you can expect to mine fewer and fewer coins as the overall network difficulty increases.  So, yes, you need to keep adding hardware to maintain the same amount of mined BTC.  I'm completely leaving "income in fiat" out of the equation, I'm strictly speaking of BTC.

Let's assume you have enough hashing power to earn 1BTC a day right now.  If the difficulty goes up 25%, you can expect to add 25% more hash power to maintain that 1BTC a day.  Here's the math that is used to calculate expected earnings per day:

Code:
Difficulty * 2**32 / hashrate / 86400 = number of days to find a block
25 / number of days = expected earnings per day

As you can see, increasing the difficulty will directly affect the number of days to find that block, and hence directly impact your daily earnings.

A real example of how a 1.1TH/s miner has decreased earnings potential based on the previous 2 difficulty levels:

Code:
Last difficulty was: 13462580114
13462580114 * 2**32 / 1100000000000 / 86400 = 608.3895 days
25 / 608.3895 = 0.04109209[btc] per day

Current difficulty is: 16818461371
16818461371 * 2**32 / 1100000000000 / 86400 = 760.0457 days
25 / 760.0457 = 0.03289276[btc] per day

If you wanted to maintain your 0.04109209BTC per day, you'd just solve for hash rate:
Code:
16818461371 * 2**32 / x / 86400 = 608.3895
x = 1.3742Th/s
Hope this helps.

Jonny's Pool - Mine with us and help us grow!  Support a pool that supports Bitcoin, not a hardware manufacturer's pockets!  No SPV cheats.  No empty blocks.
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July 10, 2014, 08:01:32 PM
 #33

@xtr8guy

Maaaybe you should let go on the fact that your outdated miners aren't giving the cash they once did and upgrade them

But I must warn you that you will never see a ROI, the electricity is expensive, the miners are pretty expensive. So you should think about not quitting your 9 to 5 job.


Just trying to help, Have a Nice Day!  Smiley

Just like you, I'm sitting at home... by the pool on a Thursday afternoon. I'm self-employed, work from home and have no desire to quit my "day job".

Most of my miners are relatively efficient (~1w/GHs) and are still moderately profitable at nearly 9THs. The older inefficient gear is already offline and collecting dust. My current farm will be going offline as well in 2 or 3 months when they no longer generate enough revenue to cover electricity costs.

I knew when I started mining that revenue drops with each difficulty increase. I started small and bought new gear with my mining income and managed to stay ahead of the difficulty for quite some time. Then I reached the electrical limits of my home. I then retired less efficient machines and added a few more newer miners.

I have no intention of ever buying another ASIC, ever. I firmly believe that home mining will soon be a thing of the past. Spondoolies SP30 or BitMain's S3 may extend home mining for another couple months because of improved efficiency. But only the very early orders have a slim chance of making a positive ROI. And you'll need stacks of them, max-out your circuit breakers, struggle to keep them cool, just to make $50 a day.

This is the reality of mining. If you think I'm just trying to be an asshole by warning people... well, then I'm an asshole.
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July 10, 2014, 08:49:56 PM
 #34

May 2013 - Sept 2013 I used 10990 kWh.

5 months of the year, I use more then most people use all year long. You should see the stock position I've got with them.

Nothing wrong with a good ole internet pissin' match between boys. Keeps the blood flowing.



@jonnybravo0311 Thanks, first off.

Seeing those numbers makes it much clearer, and a very good starting point for a new guy. I'm sure it's around the net somewhere, think I've stumbled across it before at 3 am or such.(calculators)

Where do you get the 2**32 from in that equation?

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July 10, 2014, 11:46:06 PM
 #35

May 2013 - Sept 2013 I used 10990 kWh.

5 months of the year, I use more then most people use all year long. You should see the stock position I've got with them.

Nothing wrong with a good ole internet pissin' match between boys. Keeps the blood flowing.



@jonnybravo0311 Thanks, first off.

Seeing those numbers makes it much clearer, and a very good starting point for a new guy. I'm sure it's around the net somewhere, think I've stumbled across it before at 3 am or such.(calculators)

Where do you get the 2**32 from in that equation?
Glad to help.  The 2**32 represents the smallest possible hash (i.e. the highest possible difficulty).  To really understand it, you need to think of the formula as: v = r/D

v is value
r is reward
D is actual difficulty

D is calculated by multiplying the current difficulty by the value of the smallest possible hash: D = d * 2**32

d = current difficulty
2**32 = smallest possible hash (i.e. highest possible difficulty)

Remember, your hash rate is expressed in hashes per second, so that's why I have the 86400 in there - to convert the time into days (because who really wants to see how many seconds you should expect it to take to solve a block, or more importantly how much you'll be earning per second?)

So, going back to the formula of v = r/D, the value is per hash.  I just tweaked that equation to provide a more useful number, i.e. value of a given hash rate over a day.

One thing to note - this equation, which is the basis of every earnings calculator out there - is completely based on probability.  It is expected earnings in a perfect world under ideal conditions where you will find a block exactly in the given amount of time.  Obviously the real world doesn't always live up to ideals Smiley

For example, I mine on p2pool.  With the current hash rate of the pool, we should find a block every 1.2 days or so, yet we've found 2 blocks in the past 24 hours.  Hence, I've made more BTC today than I should have.  Now, however, we're getting into a discussion on variance and that's an entirely different can of worms - one which I have no desire to open.

Jonny's Pool - Mine with us and help us grow!  Support a pool that supports Bitcoin, not a hardware manufacturer's pockets!  No SPV cheats.  No empty blocks.
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July 11, 2014, 05:19:39 AM
 #36

@JunkBarman Like I said, he wasn't giving you financial advice, merely "mining for ROI" advice.

You can do whatever you want with your $5k or $10k or $100 million investment.

All we're saying is 1 TH/s miner income isn't constant, and will be making single digit income very soon.

Thank you for trying to reason with this dick! Apparently he still thinks my comment was offensive in some way and doesn't want good advice. If he just read what we wrote, without the chip on his shoulder, he'd have his answers.



Nice, welcome to the board today.

Sorry if I'm tired of every thread being the same.

*Insert random mining topic here*

*Insert random mining questions here*

*Insert always leading to same standard response: it's too expensive, you can't afford the miners, they lose money daily, are you an idiot, you didn't even think of electricity, but have a nice day dick  Grin*

I dare you to pick a thread where these doesn't happen anymore.

When did it become this communities JOB to remind everyone how much money they are losing? Talk about chips.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=606783.msg7749092#msg7749092

Well you know it's like all other advice on the internet - use it or ignore it.  The account you're posting on has been here for 5 days, so I doubt you've been here long enough to know what's been going on since the CPU days.

We're all harping the same "don't buy miners" because we're keeping people from making mistakes.  If people understood enough and could do the calculations accurately they wouldn't even as us - they would ask Bitfury how much for 10PH.
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