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Author Topic: BITCOIN CLOUD MINING IS A SCAM (noob word!)  (Read 6535 times)
GODLIKE
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June 28, 2014, 07:16:48 AM
 #41

2) the whole reason for doing so is to secure the network.

LOLWUT?

That's the purpose of mining.   *People* mine for profit, but mining secures the network which is good for anyone that has BTC.  Also, even at these prices, there is still the potential to profit long-term, and Bitcoin can only exist long-term so long as there are miners and the network is secure and...you get the idea.

Honestly not.
Not because I am an expert, but because it doesn't make sense to me.
Soon, costs for mining will be prohibitive and people will stop mining.
Is then Bitcoin going to collapse? I don't think so.
And, for the little I know, I don't think it's true that mining is necessary to secure the network, but if you point me to an article I'll be glad to read about this.

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June 28, 2014, 08:58:22 AM
 #42

2) the whole reason for doing so is to secure the network.

LOLWUT?

That's the purpose of mining.   *People* mine for profit, but mining secures the network which is good for anyone that has BTC.  Also, even at these prices, there is still the potential to profit long-term, and Bitcoin can only exist long-term so long as there are miners and the network is secure and...you get the idea.

Honestly not.
Not because I am an expert, but because it doesn't make sense to me.
Soon, costs for mining will be prohibitive and people will stop mining.
Is then Bitcoin going to collapse? I don't think so.
And, for the little I know, I don't think it's true that mining is necessary to secure the network, but if you point me to an article I'll be glad to read about this.

You are correct, you are not an expert.  
This post definitely qualifies you as a noob.  Smiley

The fact that mining secures the network
Is one of the most basic things about
Bitcoin and one of the most essential.

https://bitcoin.org/en/faq#how-does-mining-help-secure-bitcoin

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June 28, 2014, 09:10:33 AM
 #43

It's basically a scam business model.

No sane company is going to give money
away, and that's exactly what it would be doing
by selling you fully managed hashing power that's
profitable.

Duh.

And furthermore, I would say most turnkey mining hardware
sales are scammy too.  Sure, you pay electricity,
maintenance, storage,etc..but it doesn't make
sense for a company to sell you gear and give
you any substantial margin when they could mine with it.

Seems like the real winners in mining either
make their own chips or at least buy chips wholesale
and assemble.  


...Except it's disingenuous to call it a scam business model.

When you purchase hash power, two main things happen:  1)  Yeah, you submit shares and get a reward, but 2) the whole reason for doing so is to secure the network.  The business model is providing a service to let you secure the network if you don't know how to do it from home.  If a person thinks that there's some magic company with infinite money that will allow any person to give them money and receive more money in return, that's a bit absurd.  

I realize you basically said the same thing as I did in my previous sentence, but I think that just places the responsibility back on the consumer rather than on the business.  If you make the argument that targeting noobs and others who lack the knowledge to know that the prices are crazy expensive is scamming, then that could also apply to a lot of other similar-looking business models.  A good example would be car leasing offers.

Although, I bet we both agree the prices are ludicrous pending significant coin-value increases.


I see your points that there additional benefits to mining other than profit, namely participation
in the network security, and that whether it's a "scam" depends on how one wants to define it.

Can we agree that consumer mining, especially cloud mining is (baring a price spike as you mentioned) inherently unprofitable and that it is unscrupulous for any company to imply otherwise?

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June 28, 2014, 09:37:12 AM
 #44

Honestly not.
Not because I am an expert, but because it doesn't make sense to me.
Soon, costs for mining will be prohibitive and people will stop mining.
Is then Bitcoin going to collapse? I don't think so.
And, for the little I know, I don't think it's true that mining is necessary to secure the network, but if you point me to an article I'll be glad to read about this.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
A portion of miners leave -> difficulty adjustment -> it is profitable for them again.
Stop talking, please. I'm running a few smaller miners and donating whatever they mine. I'm doing it to support the network, like most people should do.


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June 28, 2014, 09:38:36 AM
 #45

I don't think cloud mining has ever been profitable
The closest you could get is zero sum since hash is sold at a discount and daily payments include that discount
Only with a rapid price rise would it break even
Although just buying bitcoin would be worth more ^_^
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June 28, 2014, 09:51:19 AM
 #46

How are renters responsible for your incompetence and lack of knowledge in basic math/logic again?

Put it as you want, they show that you can EARN, while in effect you earn nothing.
By earning, of course, everybody means earning more than what you invest.
EVERYBODY means that.
And yes, they take advantage of people ignorance.
That does not make them worth a single penny more, if you ask me.
And if you appreciate these people I despise you.

Just to be more clear: if somebody goes to your grandma and sells her some useless phone contract with higher prices teasing her in believing that she will spend less, do you think your grandma is an idiot or that scammers must be punished?

If my grandma is presented with the specs and decides to purchase the useless phone contract without any convincing then yes, it's Darwinism at its best.

I hope you will never make any mistake in your life... you are presumptuous to say the least.

Look, I have made plenty of mistakes in my life but I didn't think to blame the other person(s) for them. If my grandma would get a bad deal on a phone contract is certainly would be tragic and sad, however it would be her fault 100%, especially if the seller didn't make her any promises which he didn't keep.

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June 28, 2014, 12:28:46 PM
 #47

Honestly not.
Not because I am an expert, but because it doesn't make sense to me.
Soon, costs for mining will be prohibitive and people will stop mining.
Is then Bitcoin going to collapse? I don't think so.
And, for the little I know, I don't think it's true that mining is necessary to secure the network, but if you point me to an article I'll be glad to read about this.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
A portion of miners leave -> difficulty adjustment -> it is profitable for them again.
Stop talking, please. I'm running a few smaller miners and donating whatever they mine. I'm doing it to support the network, like most people should do.

Mh so tell me, what will happen when all the Bitcoin will be mined?

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June 28, 2014, 12:34:22 PM
 #48

Honestly not.
Not because I am an expert, but because it doesn't make sense to me.
Soon, costs for mining will be prohibitive and people will stop mining.
Is then Bitcoin going to collapse? I don't think so.
And, for the little I know, I don't think it's true that mining is necessary to secure the network, but if you point me to an article I'll be glad to read about this.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
A portion of miners leave -> difficulty adjustment -> it is profitable for them again.
Stop talking, please. I'm running a few smaller miners and donating whatever they mine. I'm doing it to support the network, like most people should do.

Mh so tell me, what will happen when all the Bitcoin will be mined?

After all coins are mined, miners will continue to solve the hashes to forge blocks of transactions. 
Even though there won't be any block rewards, they will still get transaction
fees, which by that time, could be considerable.

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June 28, 2014, 12:41:52 PM
 #49

2) the whole reason for doing so is to secure the network.

LOLWUT?

That's the purpose of mining.   *People* mine for profit, but mining secures the network which is good for anyone that has BTC.  Also, even at these prices, there is still the potential to profit long-term, and Bitcoin can only exist long-term so long as there are miners and the network is secure and...you get the idea.

Honestly not.
Not because I am an expert, but because it doesn't make sense to me.
Soon, costs for mining will be prohibitive and people will stop mining.
Is then Bitcoin going to collapse? I don't think so.
And, for the little I know, I don't think it's true that mining is necessary to secure the network, but if you point me to an article I'll be glad to read about this.

You are correct, you are not an expert.  
This post definitely qualifies you as a noob.  Smiley

The fact that mining secures the network
Is one of the most basic things about
Bitcoin and one of the most essential.

https://bitcoin.org/en/faq#how-does-mining-help-secure-bitcoin


I only see mining needed until there won't be enough transactions to prevent somebody manipulating the blockchain.
As of today there are already tens of thousands of transactions every day, but technically I don't know if they are enough to prevent it.

And btw, you don't offend me by calling me a noob, as I stated it already, you only look childish and frustrated  Wink

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June 28, 2014, 12:46:32 PM
 #50

2) the whole reason for doing so is to secure the network.

LOLWUT?

That's the purpose of mining.   *People* mine for profit, but mining secures the network which is good for anyone that has BTC.  Also, even at these prices, there is still the potential to profit long-term, and Bitcoin can only exist long-term so long as there are miners and the network is secure and...you get the idea.

Honestly not.
Not because I am an expert, but because it doesn't make sense to me.
Soon, costs for mining will be prohibitive and people will stop mining.
Is then Bitcoin going to collapse? I don't think so.
And, for the little I know, I don't think it's true that mining is necessary to secure the network, but if you point me to an article I'll be glad to read about this.

You are correct, you are not an expert.  
This post definitely qualifies you as a noob.  Smiley

The fact that mining secures the network
Is one of the most basic things about
Bitcoin and one of the most essential.

https://bitcoin.org/en/faq#how-does-mining-help-secure-bitcoin


I only see mining needed until there won't be enough transactions to prevent somebody manipulating the blockchain.
As of today there are already tens of thousands of transactions every day, but technically I don't know if they are enough to prevent it.

Number of transactions has nothing to do with if the blockchain can be manipulated.
Transactions are bundled into blocks, and each block is linked to the previous
with a cryptographic hash to form a chain of blocks (hence the term "blockchain")

You ALWAYS need mining to find the solution to the next's block hash, to put it in simple terms.  This is how Bitcoin works.


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June 28, 2014, 12:50:13 PM
 #51

2) the whole reason for doing so is to secure the network.

LOLWUT?

That's the purpose of mining.   *People* mine for profit, but mining secures the network which is good for anyone that has BTC.  Also, even at these prices, there is still the potential to profit long-term, and Bitcoin can only exist long-term so long as there are miners and the network is secure and...you get the idea.

Honestly not.
Not because I am an expert, but because it doesn't make sense to me.
Soon, costs for mining will be prohibitive and people will stop mining.
Is then Bitcoin going to collapse? I don't think so.
And, for the little I know, I don't think it's true that mining is necessary to secure the network, but if you point me to an article I'll be glad to read about this.

You are correct, you are not an expert.  
This post definitely qualifies you as a noob.  Smiley

The fact that mining secures the network
Is one of the most basic things about
Bitcoin and one of the most essential.

https://bitcoin.org/en/faq#how-does-mining-help-secure-bitcoin


I only see mining needed until there won't be enough transactions to prevent somebody manipulating the blockchain.
As of today there are already tens of thousands of transactions every day, but technically I don't know if they are enough to prevent it.

Number of transactions has nothing to do with if the blockchain can be manipulated.
Transactions are bundled into blocks, and each block is linked to the previous
with a cryptographic hash to form a chain of blocks (hence the term "blockchain")

You ALWAYS need mining to find the solution to the next's block hash, to put it in simple terms.  This is how Bitcoin works.



So the bubble will explode once the last Bitcoin will be mined?

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June 28, 2014, 12:51:32 PM
 #52



So the bubble will explode once the last Bitcoin will be mined?

What bubble?

The last Bitcoin won't be mined until the year 2140 or so.
And at that time, miners will be profiting from transaction fees.

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June 28, 2014, 12:52:43 PM
 #53

Look, I have made plenty of mistakes in my life but I didn't think to blame the other person(s) for them. If my grandma would get a bad deal on a phone contract is certainly would be tragic and sad, however it would be her fault 100%, especially if the seller didn't make her any promises which he didn't keep.

I like to see how some people completely fail to understand that somebody can't know everything on the world, and, in this example, also fail to understand that some people become older and simply can't understand new stuff. Good luck, big ballz dude.

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June 28, 2014, 12:55:58 PM
 #54



So the bubble will explode once the last Bitcoin will be mined?

What bubble?

The last Bitcoin won't be mined until the year 2140 or so.
And at that time, miners will be profiting from transaction fees.

That's cool, but I can't understand how it is possible that you don't see it: no more mining -> no more secure network -> manipulable transactions.
Also, you state the last one will be mined in 2140. I don't know if that includes the Moore Law, but even then, it probably doesn't include possible (or probable) biggest jumps in technology, like quantum computers, that are right behind the corner. They could be available in 10 years probably (if they are not already, I know there are some going around but people are not sure they are quantum).

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June 28, 2014, 12:59:39 PM
 #55



So the bubble will explode once the last Bitcoin will be mined?

What bubble?

The last Bitcoin won't be mined until the year 2140 or so.
And at that time, miners will be profiting from transaction fees.

That's cool, but I can't understand how it is possible that you don't see it: no more mining -> no more secure network -> manipulable transactions.
Also, you state the last one will be mined in 2140. I don't know if that includes the Moore Law, but even then, it probably doesn't include possible (or probable) biggest jumps in technology, like quantum computers, that are right behind the corner. They could be available in 10 years probably (if they are not already, I know there are some going around but people are not sure they are quantum).

Who said no more mining?  You misunderstood.

Re-read what I said earlier:  You ALWAYS need mining.
As long as Bitcoin exists, a miner will mine a new block
about every 10 minutes.

I think you are confusing mining with block rewards.
They are 2 different things.  Successfully mining a block gives you
a reward, but that reward decreases over the years until
there is mining with no block rewards.

The block rewards (new bitcoins) will stop being
issued in 2140, but there will still be transactions,
blocks, and mining... just no new coins.  Got it?

(Moore's law has nothing to do with any of this.)



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June 28, 2014, 01:23:19 PM
 #56



So the bubble will explode once the last Bitcoin will be mined?

What bubble?

The last Bitcoin won't be mined until the year 2140 or so.
And at that time, miners will be profiting from transaction fees.

That's cool, but I can't understand how it is possible that you don't see it: no more mining -> no more secure network -> manipulable transactions.
Also, you state the last one will be mined in 2140. I don't know if that includes the Moore Law, but even then, it probably doesn't include possible (or probable) biggest jumps in technology, like quantum computers, that are right behind the corner. They could be available in 10 years probably (if they are not already, I know there are some going around but people are not sure they are quantum).

Who said no more mining?  You misunderstood.

Re-read what I said earlier:  You ALWAYS need mining.
As long as Bitcoin exists, a miner will mine a new block
about every 10 minutes.

I think you are confusing mining with block rewards.
They are 2 different things.  Successfully mining a block gives you
a reward, but that reward decreases over the years until
there is mining with no block rewards.

The block rewards (new bitcoins) will stop being
issued in 2140, but there will still be transactions,
blocks, and mining... just no new coins.  Got it?

(Moore's law has nothing to do with any of this.)




So just to keep Bitcoin up and running somebody will always have to mine, right? Without any reward.
I guess somebody will take the task.

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June 28, 2014, 01:25:21 PM
 #57

no block rewards, but they will get transaction fees (third time I'm saying this).
Pay attention much?

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June 28, 2014, 01:27:08 PM
 #58

no block rewards, but they will get transaction fees (third time I'm saying this).
Pay attention much?

Sorry but they get transaction fees on Bitcoins they mined, if I'm not wrong again.
Why would they want to keep mining when no more Bitcoins are extracted?

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June 28, 2014, 01:28:10 PM
 #59

no block rewards, but they will get transaction fees (third time I'm saying this).
Pay attention much?

Sorry but they get transaction fees on Bitcoins they mined, if I'm not wrong again.
Why would they want to keep mining when no more Bitcoins are extracted?

Yes you are wrong again Smiley

There is a difference between block rewards and transaction fees.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees

Quote
It is envisioned that over time the cumulative effect of collecting transaction fees will allow somebody creating new blocks to "earn" more bitcoins than will be mined from new bitcoins created by the new block itself. This is also an incentive to keep trying to create new blocks even if the value of the newly created block from the mining activity is zero in the far future.

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June 28, 2014, 01:39:45 PM
 #60

no block rewards, but they will get transaction fees (third time I'm saying this).
Pay attention much?

Sorry but they get transaction fees on Bitcoins they mined, if I'm not wrong again.
Why would they want to keep mining when no more Bitcoins are extracted?

Yes you are wrong again Smiley

There is a difference between block rewards and transaction fees.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees

No, I don't think I am so stupid, sorry  Smiley
Transaction fee = miner gets it on any transaction people do.
Block reward = when new Bitcoins are discovered.

You didn't understand my question.
I put it another way: transaction fees are given to miners based on the bitcoins they mined or by solely the fact that they are mining?

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