Why has the left wing abandoned Israel?

[tvbcof]

When did Democrats abandon Israel? That's pretty much the only bipartisan issue in congress

Israel still receives 3.1 billion dollars in foreign aid yearly. So where exactly is the abandonment? Seems more like extreme sympathizer and supporter

Which is about 3.1 billion dollars too much.
Its insane a country with 17 trillion in debt, hands out foreign aid like candy.

The money is not being handed out freely. In case you do not know, the country is a US off-shore military platform and it is being used to watch over middle eastern countries.

Israel has a government which is very independent of control from the U.S.  It is more than fair to question how independent our government is of the desires and aspirations of the government in Israel which has been led by right-wing and strongly Zionist factions for some time now.  There is very little that Israel wishes that we do not provide as far as I can tell, and we are very often their sole source of support and backing in the U.N. when they are called to task for one transgression or another.  Using our military power to crush some of their few remaining enemies is about the only thing we've not yet done for them, and the blowback from doing Iran (and public sentiment against doing Syria) are such that it would be nearly impossible for us to dance to their tunes here.

Israel obtains unfiltered intelligence feeds with data about U.S. citizens as we've learned from Snowden.  They even have explicit authorization to keep data on U.S. citizens for a period of time (minus U.S. lawmakers via a non-binding agreement) but what they do with the data is anyone's guess.

Israel can also execute U.S. citizens on humanitarian vessels in international waters and all of the leaderships of our government, and with almost no exceptions all of our mainstream media will studiously look the other way.  I'm talking about the 2010 'freedom flotilla' incident, not the 1967 USS Liberty incident.

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[Leina]

When did Democrats abandon Israel? That's pretty much the only bipartisan issue in congress

Israel still receives 3.1 billion dollars in foreign aid yearly. So where exactly is the abandonment? Seems more like extreme sympathizer and supporter

Which is about 3.1 billion dollars too much.
Its insane a country with 17 trillion in debt, hands out foreign aid like candy.

The money is not being handed out freely. In case you do not know, the country is a US off-shore military platform and it is being used to watch over middle eastern countries.

Israel has a government which is very independent of control from the U.S.  It is more than fair to question how independent our government is of the desires and aspirations of the government in Israel which has been led by right-wing and strongly Zionist factions for some time now.  There is very little that Israel wishes that we do not provide as far as I can tell, and we are very often their sole source of support and backing in the U.N. when they are called to task for one transgression or another.  Using our military power to crush some of their few remaining enemies is about the only thing we've not yet done for them, and the blowback from doing Iran (and public sentiment against doing Syria) are such that it would be nearly impossible for us to dance to their tunes here.

Israel obtains unfiltered intelligence feeds with data about U.S. citizens as we've learned from Snowden.  They even have explicit authorization to keep data on U.S. citizens for a period of time (minus U.S. lawmakers via a non-binding agreement) but what they do with the data is anyone's guess.

Israel can also execute U.S. citizens on humanitarian vessels in international waters and all of the leaderships of our government, and with almost no exceptions all of our mainstream media will studiously look the other way.  I'm talking about the 2010 'freedom flotilla' incident, not the 1967 USS Liberty incident.

US has been good at one thing. To put nations in a situation that they can be manipulated to do their dirty work.

Some nations even thank US for their kind "assistance".

[koshgel]

[DodoB]

The US also funds Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups in the Middle East. Big deal.

[tvbcof]

It's worth note (and rarely mentioned in the Western media) that Crimea was effectively Russian until 1954 when Kruschev was on some vodka binge and sort of gave it over to Ukraine.  Of course it was a fairly meaningless handjob since Ukraine was part of the USSR.  But this kind of explains why a popular vote went easily to Russian Federation.  That's the direction where the native population's affiliations tend to lay.

The contrast between the post WW-II experiences of Crimea and of Palestine (and the people within) could not be more stark.

[sana8410]

 I don't personally support either side in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Neither side has historically comported themselves very well. It's actually our fault, you know - not just America, but all those who partook in the decision to set the borders in the middle east. The funny thing is, it didn't even really start after WWII - it goes back farther than that, when we created countries like Iran, Iraq and Syria after WWI. But when we decided (and I do think it was a good thing) to create a homeland for the Jews after the Holocaust, we should not have allowed its creation there. I know, that's the place they see as the "promised land" from their scriptures. But anyone should have been able to see that this was going to result in perpetual conflict. We fought WWII against the Germans, the Italians and the Japanese. My feeling is that the Jews should have been given their homeland carved from one of them. I usually suggest Sicily, because it's an island, with natural borders. Plunking them down in the middle of their historic enemies really doesn't seem to me to have been prudent, and the result should have been very predictable. As far as the conflict today, like I said, neither side has comported themselves well. Both are guilty of atrocities and of intransigence. We've attempted how many times to broker a deal? And neither side seems willing to truly accept the need to compromise. The real problem now is that we can't even walk away and just let them settle it, as we should, because Israel is a nuclear power. So if they lost, those weapons would fall into the hands of people who likely would do us harm. You ask "why has the left abandoned the Jewish state?" Well, the answer is simple - because the Jewish state has made themselves indefensible too many times by their own actions - like bombing whole neighborhoods to get one terrorist who MAY be taking refuge somewhere in there. The Palestinian authorities don't do enough to combat terrorism, and the Israelis react too harshly to it. And I see no end in sight.

[zolace]

I agree there have been terrible atrocities but usually we seem to hear only about the ones that Israel have committed. We hear very little about the Palestinians crimes. Expecting hundreds of thousands of displaced Jews to go settle in Sicily doesn't make much sense to me. People want to go home and not some strange island most of them have never visited. The two peoples both have history in the same area and will have to find a way to live together.

[sana8410]

I agree there have been terrible atrocities but usually we seem to hear only about the ones that Israel have committed. We hear very little about the Palestinians crimes. Expecting hundreds of thousands of displaced Jews to go settle in Sicily doesn't make much sense to me. People want to go home and not some strange island most of them have never visited. The two peoples both have history in the same area and will have to find a way to live together.

But that's just it, zolace - more than half of the settlers of Israel weren't returning home, but were gathering there from elsewhere. I just figured that giving them a place to live that was fertile and more importantly, comparatively safe, would have been a better idea.And I totally disagree with you that only the atrocities committed by Israel were publicized. We hear about terrorist bombs and mortar attacks all the time; no one's holding back that news.
 

[zolace]

You could well be right sana but it seems to me the press is very quick to advertise Israeli attacks and slow to report Palestinian attacks. Its like those Israel haters on the boards who put up endless hostile reports on Israelis behavior and never mention the Pals at all.

[Rigon]

stories are sometimes invented to make the Palestinians look bad, and countless Israeli crimes are swept under the rug or flatly denied if they happen to get out.

[zolace]

stories are sometimes invented to make the Palestinians look bad, and countless Israeli crimes are swept under the rug or flatly denied if they happen to get out.

As usual if anyone dares to disagree with "the truth will set you free"

[umair127]

Jews were, on the whole, better treated in the Middle East than their coreligionists were in Europe.
Modern Jews in Israel, on the whole, act towards Palestinians in the same way Europeans did to their forefathers.
In other words, Jews may have left Europe but their racist/theological attitudes have remained European.

[Rigon]

stories are sometimes invented to make the Palestinians look bad, and countless Israeli crimes are swept under the rug or flatly denied if they happen to get out.

As usual if anyone dares to disagree with "the truth will set you free"

then if your interest is piqued maybe you'll read another one, and then maybe you'll realize why most of the world looks down on Israel's behavior. Of course this is only if you are truly interested in learning more than the pro Israel propaganda we get in the msm here.
I criticize false declarations and try to put real rebuttals out. Not opinions, facts

[sana8410]

Israel has fallen into the hands of the rightwing. Why would you expect me to support the sort of behavior that goes on in Israel?  countenance the sort of politics that so many religious parties in Israel are imposing not only on Palestinians, but on Israelis themselves? Because of Israel's Parliamentary sytem, the minority religious parties wield a disproportionate power in their ability to make or break a coalition since none of the major parties wins outright majorities. And they wield that power with a vengeance reminiscent of their OT Jehovah. Their behavior in office is akin to imposition of Islamic sharia-law, and they are asking the same sort of authority in Israel that the mullahs enjoy in Iran.

I understand why so many of the rightwingers support Israel--they need the Red Cow found (hence the attempts at breeding the same by the Texan rancher), so they can build the Third Temple, because not until the Third Temple is built and destroyed can Christ return. So they certainly don't mind the repressive theocracy that the extremist Jewish religious parties are imposing. How you can justify it, though, is beyond me.

Nor does your pipe dream of the two peoples living together have the chance of a snowball in hell. Resources are too scarce, Palestinian birthrates too high, Israel can't afford either a unitary state or a two state solution.

My solution is best--by now it should be evident to you that I'm almost always right, and I am in this situation too. Open emigration, immediate citizenship and generous resettlement packages to any Israelis who wish to leave Israel and raise their children in peace and quiet. The dissolution of the state of Israel and its replacement by an autonomous Jewish territory for the small portion of Israelis who choose to remain, guaranteed by the UN and, if necessary, US power.

[Rigon]

Israel has fallen into the hands of the rightwing. Why would you expect me to support the sort of behavior that goes on in Israel?  countenance the sort of politics that so many religious parties in Israel are imposing not only on Palestinians, but on Israelis themselves? Because of Israel's Parliamentary sytem, the minority religious parties wield a disproportionate power in their ability to make or break a coalition since none of the major parties wins outright majorities. And they wield that power with a vengeance reminiscent of their OT Jehovah. Their behavior in office is akin to imposition of Islamic sharia-law, and they are asking the same sort of authority in Israel that the mullahs enjoy in Iran.

I understand why so many of the rightwingers support Israel--they need the Red Cow found (hence the attempts at breeding the same by the Texan rancher), so they can build the Third Temple, because not until the Third Temple is built and destroyed can Christ return. So they certainly don't mind the repressive theocracy that the extremist Jewish religious parties are imposing. How you can justify it, though, is beyond me.

Nor does your pipe dream of the two peoples living together have the chance of a snowball in hell. Resources are too scarce, Palestinian birthrates too high, Israel can't afford either a unitary state or a two state solution.

My solution is best--by now it should be evident to you that I'm almost always right, and I am in this situation too. Open emigration, immediate citizenship and generous resettlement packages to any Israelis who wish to leave Israel and raise their children in peace and quiet. The dissolution of the state of Israel and its replacement by an autonomous Jewish territory for the small portion of Israelis who choose to remain, guaranteed by the UN and, if necessary, US power.

Sana, what makes you think we need to provide a solution for either of their existence? I would propose that we cut Israel free and stop spending billions of tax dollars to support their criminal activities. Leave them to their wants..........

[sana8410]

Rigon of course you wouldn't, Because there's nothing you'd like better than to see Israel surrounded by enemies out to destroy her and without a friend in the world. You know as well as I would the end result would be. Why do you think I said what I said above?

Long and short, I'm trying to stop bloodshed, Easy, to find a way out of the spiral path to hell both peoples are on right now, and figure out a way to relieve--NOT increase--the pressures in the area. Aside of my virtuous intentions, of course, there is also the reality that the US cannot afford a charnel house in the area, not, at least, until we are off Mideast oil.

[Rigon]

That's not fair or accurate, I have no desire to see more bloodshed anywhere. Israel is the occupier and oppressor here sana. Israel is the one committing a slow steady genocide against the Arab population. Just take the Gaza 2009 massacre, it was horror unmitigated crime against humanity. I'm sorry if I have no sympathy for the folks responsible. There are consequences for actions, and if you're so worried that the whole world would come down on Israel, well I guess they should have been a little more diplomatic and humane from the start instead of attacking, murdering, destroying and stealing..............all while oppressing the Arabs to the extreme.

It's too late for your MMQ theatrics. Israel does not deserve anyone's support or approval. The government of Israel is a terrorist entity. To be a prime minister even, you need to have terrorist credentials man! Your ideas are pipe dreams now, it has gone way to far.

[umair127]

I say we make everyone wander around blindfolded and screw the first person they bump into for a couple nights every year. You know, a variation on the cockroach approach. They could even make it part of their ritual beliefs. Problem solved. Three generations, tops.

[sana8410]

That's not fair or accurate, I have no desire to see more bloodshed anywhere. Israel is the occupier and oppressor here sana. Israel is the one committing a slow steady genocide against the Arab population. Just take the Gaza 2009 massacre, it was horror unmitigated crime against humanity. I'm sorry if I have no sympathy for the folks responsible. There are consequences for actions, and if you're so worried that the whole world would come down on Israel, well I guess they should have been a little more diplomatic and humane from the start instead of attacking, murdering, destroying and stealing..............all while oppressing the Arabs to the extreme.

It's too late for your MMQ theatrics. Israel does not deserve anyone's support or approval. The government of Israel is a terrorist entity. To be a prime minister even, you need to have terrorist credentials man! Your ideas are pipe dreams now, it has gone way to far.

It most certainly is. You know as well as I what would happen if the US just walked away from Israel--you'd leave Israel NO choice but to exercise her military might against any potential threat, which would lead to an increased spiral of violence. You know that as well as I. So when you suggest just "cutting them off", knowing that, how can you say you're not desirous of more bloodshed?

As for who is more responsible or the criminals, I, and frankly the entire fucking world, are tired of that. There's enough blame on both sides to last the next millenium--just too many weapons for them to EXIST for the next millenium. This has nothing to do with "Jews and Muslims" "Arabs and Israelis", it has to do with too many monkeys fighting over too few resources. Remove the Israelis and that fighting is likely to continue to a certain degree, but it will be between various Palestinian factions, and will not be as suicidally genocidal as it will be if each aims and fires its deadliest weapons at the other.

[Rigon]

If you want peace, then open the crossings to Gaza and the villages all over the West Bank, put the guns in storage and move back to the 67 border lines and institute a true democratic governance. You can be as tired, as you want to be, but the fact remains that the Zionist right wing leaders  have created this atmosphere, and if they want peace it will be up to them to do the right thing. When you have all the guns it behooves you to behave. If the U.S. were to do the right thing, then they could walk in and demand the action necessary to facilitate a peaceful resolution. Again, it boils down to Israel's refusal to take the high road again, and again, and again. They do not want peace, they want the land, they want to realize their 'Greater Israel'