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Author Topic: The problem of stolen coins  (Read 7969 times)
FreeTrade
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March 06, 2012, 01:41:59 PM
 #81

This may be relevant -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemo_dat_quod_non_habet

In American law, a bona fide purchaser who unknowingly purchases and subsequently sells stolen goods will, at common law, be held liable in trover for the full market value of those goods as of the date of conversion. Since the true owner retains legal title, this is true even in a chain of successive bona fide purchasers (i.e., the true owner can successfully sue the fifth bona fide purchaser in trover).

But . . . .

There are numerous exceptions to the nemo dat rule. Legal tender, for example, does not adhere to the rule in certain circumstances. If a rogue buys goods from a bona fide merchant, that merchant will not have to return the bills to the true owner. To hold the rule to be otherwise would be disruptive to the economy and prevent the free flow of goods in an economy. The same may be true of other "negotiable" instruments, such as cheques. If a thief A steals a cheque from B and sells it to innocent C, C is entitled to deal with the cheque, and A cannot claim it back from C (though the name appearing on the cheque may affect the validity of such a transfer).

The internet is freedom to communicate without permission. Crypto is freedom to trade without permission.

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March 06, 2012, 02:09:55 PM
 #82

amencon@page1: "Do the people that find themselves in possession of laundered stolen coins have the same opportunity to protect themselves?"

Yes:
1: Don't publish your public keys. Keep them as secret you would keep your private keys.

2: Again: Treat your public keys as they were your credit card numbers. Would you enter your credit card number at some random untrusted USD to EUR exchange? Would you give your credit card number openly on this forum? Would you give your credit card number to some random wanting to give your money?

3: Yes you can give public keys. But treat them as your credit card number. ONLY give them to trusted people. Think of trusted people as like those nice webshops that you trust and know have good reputation. You freely give your cc to them.

4: Only deal with trusted indivuals.

5: Once a key is used, consider it void. After a adress has been used for a legit transaction, NEVER ever reuse that key. NEVER ever collect
any coins that may randomly fall into that adress. Toss away the private key after the coins has been spent.
(Because the public key go into the blockchain and is published and leaked.)

6: If a public key does leak, make sure to claim all coins before any new coins appear at that adress, and then toss away the private key to the leaked public key.

7: If you get unknown coins at a adress, use a client that allows you to select coins, to make sure to only select non-stolen inputs, to claim all coins from adress.

8: If, and ever if, unknown coins ever get mixed with your own coins in some way making them unseparable without tracing you to the stolen source coin, toss all those coins overboard.

I suppose theoretically you are right.  In practice however, I will take that as a "no".  There is a much lower barrier to entry to secure your coins then for every bitcoin user to jump through the 8 hoops you outlined above.  I don't ever see that happening unless the acceptance and use of bitcoins stay very very small.
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March 06, 2012, 02:17:57 PM
 #83

1: Don't publish your public keys. Keep them as secret you would keep your private keys.

2: Again: Treat your public keys as they were your credit card numbers. Would you enter your credit card number at some random untrusted USD to EUR exchange? Would you give your credit card number openly on this forum? Would you give your credit card number to some random wanting to give your money?

3: Yes you can give public keys. But treat them as your credit card number. ONLY give them to trusted people. Think of trusted people as like those nice webshops that you trust and know have good reputation. You freely give your cc to them.

4: Only deal with trusted indivuals.

5: Once a key is used, consider it void. After a adress has been used for a legit transaction, NEVER ever reuse that key. NEVER ever collect
any coins that may randomly fall into that adress.

6: If a public key does leak, make sure to claim all coins before any new coins appear at that adress, and then toss away the private key to the leaked public key.

7: If you get unknown coins at a adress, use a client that allows you to select coins, to make sure to only select non-stolen inputs, to claim all coins from adress.

8: If, and ever if, unknown coins ever get mixed with your own coins in some way making them unseparable without tracing you to the stolen source coin, toss all those coins overboard.

What a new user heard is "fuck all that I should keep using Paypal because it is safe".  Most active users on BitcoinTalk aren't going to do all that.  Even doing all that is no guarantee you won't get so called "tainted coins".  What if Bitcoinica hadn't noticed the theft for 8 hours.  How many users even doing all 8 stupid steps on every transaction could end up with "tainted coins".

What does this laundry list of complicated steps accomplish? Absolutely nothing.
What does massive conflicting registries of tainted coins databases? Absolutely nothing.

A bunch of running around in circles flailing hands and accomplishing nothing except to drive away new users. 

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March 06, 2012, 02:40:49 PM
 #84

amencon@page1: "Do the people that find themselves in possession of laundered stolen coins have the same opportunity to protect themselves?"

Yes:
1: Don't publish your public keys. Keep them as secret you would keep your private keys.


They are already published on the block chain. 
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March 06, 2012, 02:49:29 PM
 #85

1: Don't publish your public keys. Keep them as secret you would keep your private keys.

2: Again: Treat your public keys as they were your credit card numbers. Would you enter your credit card number at some random untrusted USD to EUR exchange? Would you give your credit card number openly on this forum? Would you give your credit card number to some random wanting to give your money?

3: Yes you can give public keys. But treat them as your credit card number. ONLY give them to trusted people. Think of trusted people as like those nice webshops that you trust and know have good reputation. You freely give your cc to them.

4: Only deal with trusted indivuals.

5: Once a key is used, consider it void. After a adress has been used for a legit transaction, NEVER ever reuse that key. NEVER ever collect
any coins that may randomly fall into that adress.

6: If a public key does leak, make sure to claim all coins before any new coins appear at that adress, and then toss away the private key to the leaked public key.

7: If you get unknown coins at a adress, use a client that allows you to select coins, to make sure to only select non-stolen inputs, to claim all coins from adress.

8: If, and ever if, unknown coins ever get mixed with your own coins in some way making them unseparable without tracing you to the stolen source coin, toss all those coins overboard.

What a new user heard is "fuck all that I should keep using Paypal because it is safe".  Most active users on BitcoinTalk aren't going to do all that.  Even doing all that is no guarantee you won't get so called "tainted coins".  What if Bitcoinica hadn't noticed the theft for 8 hours.  How many users even doing all 8 stupid steps on every transaction could end up with "tainted coins".

What does this laundry list of complicated steps accomplish? Absolutely nothing.
What does massive conflicting registries of tainted coins databases? Absolutely nothing.

A bunch of running around in circles flailing hands and accomplishing nothing except to drive away new users. 



And old users.

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