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Author Topic: Private enterprise bankrupting America?  (Read 9498 times)
Hawker
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March 19, 2012, 10:13:30 PM
 #141


And doctors from everywhere move to the US, and leaders of other countries and rich people in other countries go to the US for healthcare, and the US is the richest most powerful country the world has ever known... why U want to mess wit success??

(i'm not even american btw)


Same is true of UK and the rest of the developed world.

Read the article and try to make an informed comment.

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bb113
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March 21, 2012, 12:11:16 AM
 #142

Quote
Read the article and try to make an informed comment.

I think reading the WaPo article makes you less informed. I guess it got me looking stuff up though. I need to get back to this eventually, the 5% thing is interesting.
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March 22, 2012, 10:33:10 AM
 #143

High health care costs are 100% the fault of government intervention. why should it be different from any other industry? computers get cheaper every year because the government doesn't have it's tenticles all over it; distorting resource allocation. The market in health care is far from free, that's the problem.


related:

John Stossel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WnS96NVlMI

Peter Schiff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6eIBvrMY5w
Hawker
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March 22, 2012, 03:27:45 PM
 #144

High health care costs are 100% the fault of government intervention. why should it be different from any other industry? computers get cheaper every year because the government doesn't have it's tenticles all over it; distorting resource allocation. The market in health care is far from free, that's the problem.


related:

John Stossel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WnS96NVlMI

Peter Schiff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6eIBvrMY5w

Read the article please.  Its pathetic to post platitudes without informing yourself of the facts.

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March 24, 2012, 07:44:19 AM
 #145

High health care costs are 100% the fault of government intervention. why should it be different from any other industry? computers get cheaper every year because the government doesn't have it's tenticles all over it; distorting resource allocation. The market in health care is far from free, that's the problem.


related:

John Stossel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WnS96NVlMI

Peter Schiff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6eIBvrMY5w

Read the article please.  Its pathetic to post platitudes without informing yourself of the facts.

The government mandates that employers provide insurance to employees. People can't choose what they're covered for. They'll claim on things they otherwise wouldn't have just because they're already paying for it. It also reduces competitiveness in insurance.

Malpractice legislation means that doctors have to raise their prices to cover the risk of being sued.

Medical research is heavily regulated. Instead of just bringing a viable product to market, companies have to pass a ridiculous set of expensive, overkill double blind studies for many years just to get fda approval.

Patents grant a monopoly on drugs leading to monopoly prices.

Medicaid and Medicare hides the true cost of medical insurance from the consumer. socializing the cost is a tragedy of the commons situation, which leads to poor resource allocation.

God know what other laws are on the books that I don't know about.

So yes, “it’s the prices, stupid.”, but the prices are the governments fault. What America and basically every socialist country in the world needs, is a competitive free market in health care. Voluntary trade results in a vastly more optimal allocation of resources than any violence based solution the government can come up with.

Explain to me why electronics keep getting cheaper, but health care keeps getting more expensive.

Also, another take on this:
http://mises.org/daily/4434
Hawker
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March 24, 2012, 09:53:57 AM
 #146

asdf - the problem is the US is that your government refuses to control prices.  Even now, politicians are competing to ensure that they do most to stop price reductions.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/23/us/politics/house-votes-to-kill-a-medicare-cost-control-board.html?ref=health

Every other well run country does control prices so Americans pay more for the same service.

You are of course correct that health is not a free market.  But most Americans are told that it is a free market! You end up with confused folk making slogans like:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_dDBCv4k4awU/S86ryvu59cI/AAAAAAAAAdE/NU6SUauTjok/s1600/s-MEDICARE-large.jpg

Smiley

The 2 point of the article are that

(1) Americans get particularly shafted and that
(2) the people responsible insist that any control on their pricing is "socialised medicine."


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March 24, 2012, 10:00:07 AM
 #147

You are of course correct that health is not a free market.  But most Americans are told that it is a free market! You end up with confused folk making slogans like:




I've heard of these people. They must be plants.
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March 24, 2012, 10:06:51 AM
 #148

I mean that is drone behavior if not. I dunno, in my time I've met some drones and people who just didn't consider what they were saying (like "credit unions are for farmers"...) but that is just pure drone if true.
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March 24, 2012, 04:46:02 PM
 #149

Most people don't make the connection that if they are on Medicare or Social Security, they are on welfare.  To call them "drones" or "plants" is fun for you but it doesn't get around the fact that Americans are being charged vastly more than anyone else for medicines.

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March 24, 2012, 05:42:57 PM
 #150

Asdf forgot the one big point I especially have an issue with, which is that "healthcare costs are high" is just a nebulous feeling most people have, without having concrete evidence for it. Specifically it's because companies are incentivized to cover a huge portion of insurance premiums for their employees for tax purposes, without even being required to let them know how much, and as a result, most employees believe their health insurance costs them something like $60 to $160 a month, when the actual figures are close to $300 to $450 a month. That money still comes out of the payroll budget, and I strongly believe that if the practice was ended, and instead all employers were forced to make all employees buy their own insurance while giving them all the money they are due (I.e. everyone gets a raise equivalent to the amount of insurance premium subsidy they were getting), not only would everyone in US get an extreme shock of seeing just how much their health insurance actually costs, and get motivated to do so something,  but they will individually start shopping for the best prices and services, driving insurance costs way down really fast.
Then the only question remains is do we have an individual mandate, forcing everyone to have insurance, or do we pass a notice/law that hospitals are not required and should NOT treat anyone unless they or their insurance can pay.

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March 24, 2012, 08:17:23 PM
 #151

Most people don't make the connection that if they are on Medicare or Social Security, they are on welfare.  To call them "drones" or "plants" is fun for you but it doesn't get around the fact that Americans are being charged vastly more than anyone else for medicines.

It is not the same as welfare. It is like a saving account that the government keeps for you. And yes someone who holds a sign indicating a failure to realize that medicare is run by the government is either a plant or a drone.
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March 24, 2012, 08:55:22 PM
 #152

Most people don't make the connection that if they are on Medicare or Social Security, they are on welfare.  To call them "drones" or "plants" is fun for you but it doesn't get around the fact that Americans are being charged vastly more than anyone else for medicines.

It is not the same as welfare. It is like a saving account that the government keeps for you. And yes someone who holds a sign indicating a failure to realize that medicare is run by the government is either a plant or a drone.

My understanding of the US system is that if you get sick at a young age or injured, you get Medicare and Social Security.  You may never have done a day's work in your life.  Its welfare.

Really, anyone who thinks that a system that takes money from the state is not welfare is, well, I don't know what to say.

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March 24, 2012, 09:18:03 PM
 #153

It is more confusing than that. How much you get paid out is also related to how much you paid in. The money is not distributed on a purely needs basis.

I would agree this is "welfare", but many people would not. There is a stigma against welfare.
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March 24, 2012, 09:25:55 PM
 #154

It is more confusing than that. How much you get paid out is also related to how much you paid in. The money is not distributed on a purely needs basis.

I would agree this is "welfare", but many people would not. There is a stigma against welfare.

Just like there is a stigma to "socialised" in connection with medicine perhaps?  In both cases, there seems to be a terror of admitting that using the state to achieve social aims is legitimate.

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March 24, 2012, 11:07:56 PM
 #155

asdf - the problem is the US is that your government refuses to control prices.  Even now, politicians are competing to ensure that they do most to stop price reductions.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/23/us/politics/house-votes-to-kill-a-medicare-cost-control-board.html?ref=health

Every other well run country does control prices so Americans pay more for the same service.

You are of course correct that health is not a free market.  But most Americans are told that it is a free market! You end up with confused folk making slogans like:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_dDBCv4k4awU/S86ryvu59cI/AAAAAAAAAdE/NU6SUauTjok/s1600/s-MEDICARE-large.jpg

Smiley

The 2 point of the article are that

(1) Americans get particularly shafted and that
(2) the people responsible insist that any control on their pricing is "socialised medicine."

So do you not agree that any of the interventions I mentioned drive up the price?

You think that the cause of high health costs is the fact that there isn't enough price fixing? nothing distorts the market more than screwing with the price mechanism. Price fixing always results in shortages (if too low) and surpluses (if too high). If price fixing worked, we'd all be speaking Russian right now.

You ignore the intervention that caused the high prices and then advocate more intervention to cancel out the first. How about removing the cause instead of treating the symptoms.

"Government is good at only one thing. It knows how to break your legs, hand you a crutch, and say, 'See if it weren't for the government, you couldn't walk.'" - Harry Browne
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March 25, 2012, 06:56:14 AM
 #156

asdf - what you ignore is that government gives the drug manufacturers patent monopolies and then says there is a "free market" when it comes to pricing.  Take a nanosecond to think about that.  People are sick who will die if you don't get the drug and they have to negotiate with the drug manufacturer.

Are you really saying that, unlike all other advanced economies which have got it right, Americans are spectacularly stupid and would be unable to regulate those prices?

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March 25, 2012, 07:14:51 AM
 #157

asdf - what you ignore is that government gives the drug manufacturers patent monopolies and then says there is a "free market" when it comes to pricing.  Take a nanosecond to think about that.  People are sick who will die if you don't get the drug and they have to negotiate with the drug manufacturer.

Are you really saying that, unlike all other advanced economies which have got it right, Americans are spectacularly stupid and would be unable to regulate those prices?

I don't ignore this fact, I'm just saying that the patent itself it one of the problems. If you make a law and then a consequence of that law is that you must fix prices, then you really need to rethink the viability the original law.

It's the same with deposit insurance. The gov guarantees deposits, eliminating risk of bank runs, then it needs to "fix" reserve requirements to stop the banks from creating infinite loans.

It's just making laws to fix the problems created by other laws. The gov removes risk and removes competition, which are natural market regulating mechanisms and substitutes it with it's own misguided regulations. Just let the market work!
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March 25, 2012, 07:24:21 AM
 #158

asdf - what you ignore is that government gives the drug manufacturers patent monopolies and then says there is a "free market" when it comes to pricing.  Take a nanosecond to think about that.  People are sick who will die if you don't get the drug and they have to negotiate with the drug manufacturer.

Are you really saying that, unlike all other advanced economies which have got it right, Americans are spectacularly stupid and would be unable to regulate those prices?

I don't ignore this fact, I'm just saying that the patent itself it one of the problems. If you make a law and then a consequence of that law is that you must fix prices, then you really need to rethink the viability the original law.

It's the same with deposit insurance. The gov guarantees deposits, eliminating risk of bank runs, then it needs to "fix" reserve requirements to stop the banks from creating infinite loans.

It's just making laws to fix the problems created by other laws. The gov removes risk and removes competition, which are natural market regulating mechanisms and substitutes it with it's own misguided regulations. Just let the market work!

Patents won't go away so that is an argument for doing nothing and allowing the rentier to carry on overcharging.  

Can I suggest you look at the fact that other countries, which also have the same patents, have effective health care services?  As the WoPo article shows, there is a reason why America uniquely doesn't and its that, uniquely, the US gives patent monopolies for drugs and then says there is a "free market" for their prices.  



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March 26, 2012, 12:20:28 AM
 #159

asdf - what you ignore is that government gives the drug manufacturers patent monopolies and then says there is a "free market" when it comes to pricing.  Take a nanosecond to think about that.  People are sick who will die if you don't get the drug and they have to negotiate with the drug manufacturer.

Are you really saying that, unlike all other advanced economies which have got it right, Americans are spectacularly stupid and would be unable to regulate those prices?

I don't ignore this fact, I'm just saying that the patent itself it one of the problems. If you make a law and then a consequence of that law is that you must fix prices, then you really need to rethink the viability the original law.

It's the same with deposit insurance. The gov guarantees deposits, eliminating risk of bank runs, then it needs to "fix" reserve requirements to stop the banks from creating infinite loans.

It's just making laws to fix the problems created by other laws. The gov removes risk and removes competition, which are natural market regulating mechanisms and substitutes it with it's own misguided regulations. Just let the market work!

Patents won't go away so that is an argument for doing nothing and allowing the rentier to carry on overcharging.  

Can I suggest you look at the fact that other countries, which also have the same patents, have effective health care services?  As the WoPo article shows, there is a reason why America uniquely doesn't and its that, uniquely, the US gives patent monopolies for drugs and then says there is a "free market" for their prices.  


I never claimed that patents would be eliminated any time soon. I just saying that the government is the source of all the problems and it is. The health care system would work just as efficiently as the electronics industry in a free market environment.

Sure, price fixing may help, but it's just treating symptoms without curing the disease.
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March 26, 2012, 09:26:00 AM
 #160

...snip...

I never claimed that patents would be eliminated any time soon. I just saying that the government is the source of all the problems and it is. The health care system would work just as efficiently as the electronics industry in a free market environment.

Sure, price fixing may help, but it's just treating symptoms without curing the disease.

At least we are agreed on how to fix the price gouging Smiley

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