Bitcoin, copyright, profit

[nebulus]

I was thinking about a scenario where someone sells some IP for bitcoins. Is this still considered a legal offense if the IP is covered by trademark/copyright? Since countries do not recognize BTC as a currency, doesn't that make 'making profit from BTC' impossible? (considering relevant legal definitions). It seems to me like IP for BTC is a very exploitable area. Obviously, bitcoin is multinational and there is no unanimous copyright law for the world as well as some kind of enforcer. I have heard about some cases where China has "violated" a lot of US copyright laws and US can't do anything about it. Has anyone else ever thought of that? I am interested to hear from both fronts: pro and anti-copyright. Looking forward to your insight.

[Herodes]

So, you're outside radio shack, you see someone break the window and jump out with a stereo. You buy this immediately with bitcoins. Bitcoins are not recognized, so it's not a crime to buy that stereo, right ? (I'm not comparing the stereo with software, but just putting it here for sake of simplicity).

Hum.. do you even see how wrong your thinking is ? The last thing we want, is for bitcoin to become some kind of a piracy currency, that will only draw negative attention.

So if you think of starting a service offering copyrighted material for bitcoins, look at MegaUpload, the US govt. cracked down on them pretty hard. And they probably will once you're drawing sufficient attention..

[nebulus]

Bitcoin is some kind of piracy currency

[DeathAndTaxes]

If I buy stolen IP w/ gold coins is it legal?
What about purchasing drugs with guns?  Is that legal?

You belief that something is only illegal if it involves legal tender is false and if you think about it absurd.

[triplehelix]

Bitcoin is some kind of piracy currency

only if you wear an eye patch while you make the transaction, and say, "arrrrrr" after its sent.

[Boussac]

Bitcoin is some kind of piracy currency

Wake up ! State currencies are being hijacked by banksters and you call bitcoin what ??

Dictators all over the world use the same reasoning: as long as they are in power, there is no chaos !
Oh really ..I do not want that kind of order. We have lived under the dictatorship of the "GNP" for too long.

[kokjo]

Bitcoin is some kind of piracy currency

only if you wear an eye patch while you make the transaction, and say, "arrrrrr" after its sent.

I do that! Don't everyone not do that, arrr?

[triplehelix]

Bitcoin is some kind of piracy currency

only if you wear an eye patch while you make the transaction, and say, "arrrrrr" after its sent.

I do that! Don't everyone not do that, arrr?

yeah, my wife looks at me funny when i slip into my peg leg, but she's a noob and doesn't understand the intricacies of high finance.

[nebulus]

wow, so much for a productive discussion...

Bitcoin is outside of law, that's what makes it piracy currency... Not sure why people are even trying to argue this fact.
As far as my post goes, I was just trying to see if there were any intelligent people out there who would consider a thought experiment where bitcoin is involved in copyright infringement on multinational scale. Apparently not...

[kiba]

wow, so much for a productive discussion...

Bitcoin is outside of law, that's what makes it piracy currency... Not sure why people are even trying to argue this fact.
As far as my post goes, I was just trying to see if there were any intelligent people out there who would consider a thought experiment where bitcoin is involved in copyright infringement on multinational scale. Apparently not...

WTF?

Piracy currency? What's that?

[triplehelix]

wow, so much for a productive discussion...

Bitcoin is outside of law, that's what makes it piracy currency... Not sure why people are even trying to argue this fact.
As far as my post goes, I was just trying to see if there were any intelligent people out there who would consider a thought experiment where bitcoin is involved in copyright infringement on multinational scale. Apparently not...

your basic and fundamental lack of understanding about what your trying to spark a discussion on, prevent any productive discussion, because you are offering nothing of value to discuss.

ARRRRRRR!!!

[Kluge]

I've made a good few purchases with BTC, but I'm not sure I've ever bought IP using BTC, though I've expressed interest in buying games from Steam. Arrr!

If the IP were stolen and then sold for BTC, damages would be sought in the FMV of BTC in USD (assuming you reside in the US). ARRR!

Just as if you bought something with gold, the IRS will still want their share based on the USD FMV value of that gold. IP owners would sue for damages just as if the transaction were done in USD. Arrr!

Bitcoins are a medium of exchange, and have a fair market value easily-calculable for almost every government currency. Arr.

Copyright law is still copyright law, and this thread is retarded. ARRRRR!

[kokjo]

wow, so much for a productive discussion...

Bitcoin is outside of law, that's what makes it piracy currency... Not sure why people are even trying to argue this fact.
As far as my post goes, I was just trying to see if there were any intelligent people out there who would consider a thought experiment where bitcoin is involved in copyright infringement on multinational scale. Apparently not...

your basic and fundamental lack of understanding about what your trying to spark a discussion on, prevent any productive discussion, because you are offering nothing of value to discuss.

ARRRRRRR!!!

+1 ARRRRRR!!

[schnell]

You would still be charged with recieving stolen goods.
What is 'selling some IP'?
Not internet protocol address thingies?

[Kluge]

You would still be charged with recieving stolen goods.
What is 'selling some IP'?
Not internet protocol address thingies?

I'm guessing he's talking about "Intellectual Property."

[PatrickHarnett]

wow, so much for a productive discussion...

Bitcoin is outside of law, that's what makes it piracy currency... Not sure why people are even trying to argue this fact.
As far as my post goes, I was just trying to see if there were any intelligent people out there who would consider a thought experiment where bitcoin is involved in copyright infringement on multinational scale. Apparently not...

Illegal sharing of copyright material is still illegal even without a transfer of value.

Bitcoin is not a piracy currency, even considering what such a definition of that might be.  It's similar to other forms of private money (green dollars or barter).  It's very useful and I was able to get someone on the other side of the world to post me something I couldn't get sent direct.  USD9.72 would have been expensive to pay, but a couple of bitcoins, and it was all good.  Arrrrr.

"productive discussion" - you've been here a few weeks and you still don't know how big a bunch of jerks some of us are (hey, I'm a starfish, no brain or even central nervous system).  ARRRRR

(not to be confused with Castle of "Aaaaarrrrrrggghhh")

[cbeast]

wow, so much for a productive discussion...

Bitcoin is outside of law, that's what makes it piracy currency... Not sure why people are even trying to argue this fact.
As far as my post goes, I was just trying to see if there were any intelligent people out there who would consider a thought experiment where bitcoin is involved in copyright infringement on multinational scale. Apparently not...

Stolen goods have been purchased even before Bitcoin existed. I tell you this just in case you were born yesterday. If you want to discuss Bitcoin and IP then a search for "timestamp documents" will show some interesting threads about the future of copyright, notarization, and other IP issues. As far as your claim that Bitcoin is "outside the law," would you please quote a statute?

[drakahn]

arrrr?

....

ARRRR!?


....

arrrrrrr. *knowing nod*

[Qoheleth]

I was thinking about a scenario where someone sells some IP for bitcoins. Is this still considered a legal offense if the IP is covered by trademark/copyright? Since countries do not recognize BTC as a currency, doesn't that make 'making profit from BTC' impossible? (considering relevant legal definitions). It seems to me like IP for BTC is a very exploitable area. Obviously, bitcoin is multinational and there is no unanimous copyright law for the world as well as some kind of enforcer. I have heard about some cases where China has "violated" a lot of US copyright laws and US can't do anything about it. Has anyone else ever thought of that? I am interested to hear from both fronts: pro and anti-copyright. Looking forward to your insight.

Let me present two scenarios for your consideration.

• Let's say that I'm the holder of some intellectual property, and I sign it away to someone else. Now they're the holder, whether I signed it away in exchange for some money, or some apple pie, or nothing at all.
• Let's say that I have access to some intellectual property, and I distribute it to someone else outside the bounds of fair use/fair dealing/&c. That's infringement, whether I was compensated for the copy with money, or apple pie, or nothing at all.

The use of bitcoins as compensation changes neither of these scenarios, because the scenarios apply independent of compensation or lack of compensation. Nothing has changed.

(And as an aside: bitcoins are legally a "store of value" - it'd be like accepting payment in Amazon giftcards. The difficulty of tracking and returning stolen coins in no way puts Bitcoin "outside the law".)

[marcus_of_augustus]

Pirates prefer gold doubloons ... now that really is some kind of piracy currency .... hahaha-arrrr-haaaa!

... pirates will accept many currencies, (maybe not the digital fiat, monopoly issuance of the evil facist empire though) but does that make them "piracy currencies"? or privacy currencies?

Swapping electronic files with friends becomes "piracy" when exactly? Swapping other digital files (like private keys) in exchange can only blur the boundaries further and ultimately, stretch the flawed laws to their inevitable absurd outcomes ... "reductio ad adbsurdum".

Laws are made for peaceful societies, peaceful societies are not made by laws.

[nebulus]

All of you are missing the point. China violates IP laws left and right. If you are tied up to dollars who is there to sue you? It seems like there is no such thing as international court that can say "China, bad!" I am considering bitcoin in this light. Your pie/apples examples are stupid, because no IP dealer would consider trading in a currency like that.

[nebulus]

Forgot one thing...                          ArrrhhH!

[kiba]

All of you are missing the point. China violates IP laws left and right. If you are tied up to dollars who is there to sue you? It seems like there is no such thing as international court that can say "China, bad!" I am considering bitcoin in this light. Your pie/apples examples are stupid, because no IP dealer would consider trading in a currency like that.

So what? The Chinese are not doing anything bad.

[triplehelix]

All of you are missing the point. China violates IP laws left and right. If you are tied up to dollars who is there to sue you? It seems like there is no such thing as international court that can say "China, bad!" I am considering bitcoin in this light. Your pie/apples examples are stupid, because no IP dealer would consider trading in a currency like that.

what your missing is that china doesn't have the same IP laws as other jurisdictions, like the US for instance.

regardless of what you get, even if its bitcoin or apple pie, or even if you get nothing (as has been stated) in return for the IP, you are still accountable to the laws of the country you live in.  do you think you could stand on the corner selling copies of DVD's and software install discs you made on your computer just because you only accept bitcoin for them?

ARRRR!

[PatrickHarnett]

Your pie/apples examples are stupid, because no IP dealer would consider trading in a currency like that.

Hungry people deal in food.  This week North Korea agreed to trade something important for food.

Also, do you know what the big traded items are in the world?  Real value and large trading systems.  Coffee and orange juice are near the top of the pile, it's not just oil and gold that gets limelight.

I've traded my IP in currencies like that before (yum yum).  Maybe you should get better apple pie.

[Qoheleth]

All of you are missing the point. China violates IP laws left and right. If you are tied up to dollars who is there to sue you? It seems like there is no such thing as international court that can say "China, bad!" I am considering bitcoin in this light. Your pie/apples examples are stupid, because no IP dealer would consider trading in a currency like that.

People in China are getting away with violating IP laws, because those laws aren't Chinese laws.

That doesn't have anything to do with the currency. That has to do with where the people live, and what the laws are in that place.

If I'm in the US and I bootleg DVDs, and I get caught, I can be held liable for that, whether I sold them for dollars, yuan, ringgit, whatever. Or even if I was just giving them away. What matters is that I'm infringing, and that I live where it's illegal to do so.

[FreeMoney]

I was thinking about a scenario where someone sells some IP for bitcoins. Is this still considered a legal offense if the IP is covered by trademark/copyright? Since countries do not recognize BTC as a currency, doesn't that make 'making profit from BTC' impossible? (considering relevant legal definitions). It seems to me like IP for BTC is a very exploitable area. Obviously, bitcoin is multinational and there is no unanimous copyright law for the world as well as some kind of enforcer. I have heard about some cases where China has "violated" a lot of US copyright laws and US can't do anything about it. Has anyone else ever thought of that? I am interested to hear from both fronts: pro and anti-copyright. Looking forward to your insight.

Let me present two scenarios for your consideration.

• Let's say that I'm the holder of some intellectual property, and I sign it away to someone else. Now they're the holder, whether I signed it away in exchange for some money, or some apple pie, or nothing at all.
• Let's say that I have access to some intellectual property, and I distribute it to someone else outside the bounds of fair use/fair dealing/&c. That's infringement, whether I was compensated for the copy with money, or apple pie, or nothing at all.

The use of bitcoins as compensation changes neither of these scenarios, because the scenarios apply independent of compensation or lack of compensation. Nothing has changed.

(And as an aside: bitcoins are legally a "store of value" - it'd be like accepting payment in Amazon giftcards. The difficulty of tracking and returning stolen coins in no way puts Bitcoin "outside the law".)

I'm pretty sure you can share stuff you own and it's the selling they get panties bunched about.

Cite/reasoning on the legally a store of value claim? Is there a definition of a store of value somewhere? Is a gold coin a SOV? a cow?

[Qoheleth]

I'm pretty sure you can share stuff you own and it's the selling they get panties bunched about.

Commercial versus noncommercial use is one of the factors in fair use, but it's not the only factor, or even the most important factor. At least in the United States, there have been cases of people doing "file-sharing" being hit with the proverbial book by RIAA lawsuits.

Cite/reasoning on the legally a store of value claim? Is there a definition of a store of value somewhere? Is a gold coin a SOV? a cow?

I have in my memory a post that was allegedly sourced to a response from some US federal agency, talking about Bitcoin as a "store of value" in the context of when KYC requirements kick in for Bitcoin trading. Unfortunately, I've been unsuccessful at rediscovering the post via Google, so I can't point you in its direction, or even say for certain that it was real.

[bitplane]

Depends how the laws of your jurisdiction are defined and interpreted in case law. Here in the UK it's less about profit and more about the proceeds of crime. Some IP violations are a criminal offence, getting BTC would be the proceeds of crime.

[nebulus]

Bitcoin is piracy currency here is why.

I buy an island, get satellite connection and start selling copyrighted materials, IP and other licensed shit for BTC. Basically, it is fat slap in the face to authorities who would want to freeze your accounts to stop you business and since there are no laws on your island you can't get in trouble,

[triplehelix]

Bitcoin is piracy currency here is why.

I buy an island, get satellite connection and start selling copyrighted materials, IP and other licensed shit for BTC. Basically, it is fat slap in the face to authorities who would want to freeze your accounts to stop you business and since there are no laws on your island you can't get in trouble,

you need a micronation that isn't in contention with any other jurisdiction as to its sovereignty.

i wish you luck in your endeavor.  oh, and say hi to kim dotcom for me when you end up on the same cell block.

[PatrickHarnett]

US dollars/yen/euro is piracy currency here is why.

I buy an island, get satellite connection and start selling copyrighted materials, IP and other licensed shit for BTC. Basically, it is fat slap in the face to authorities who would want to freeze your accounts to stop you business and since there are no laws on your island you can't get in trouble,

Simply a fail.

How are you going to buy your satellite and pay for it?  With a so called non-pirate currency?

You pretend to receive a currency, but the people you damage prevent any and all transfers (monetary and commodities) to your country (even if recognised).  While you are starving to death, they hire a tank and drive over your hut.  The owners of the satellite refuse to transfer your data due to failure of payment and/or lawsuit, etc etc

Shame you didn't have any infrastructure, electricity, medical or population.  And irrespective of your riches in whatever currency you claim to have, it's worthless if you can't spend it.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Bitcoin is piracy currency here is why.

I buy an island, get satellite connection and start selling copyrighted materials, IP and other licensed shit for BTC. Basically, it is fat slap in the face to authorities who would want to freeze your accounts to stop you business and since there are no laws on your island you can't get in trouble,

UN charter prohibits any new nations from forming.  Sad but true.  Any island you buy would be part of an existing nation.  Any newly undiscovered island (unlikely in age of sats) becomes the land of closest existing nation.  It has been this way for some time now.

Countries are a "good ole boy club" and they don't want any new members.

Still even with factual inaccuracies your scenario is meaningless.  If you accepted payment in gold would that make gold a pirate currency.

ARRRGGG 9 out of 10 pirates prefer Gold over Bitcoin coins.

[kjj]

Since there are no laws on your island, I could just show up with a bunch of guys with guns and make it my island.  Right?

[nebulus]

Troll fest...