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Author Topic: Taint checker list  (Read 4200 times)
DeathAndTaxes
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Gerald Davis


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March 06, 2012, 05:00:28 PM
 #41

The 2% transaction fee (in example above) would go back to the owner of the input address via another address thus it has no cost.  The fee is simply a mechanism to obfuscate the ownership of the owner to obfuscate the ownership of the coins.  The higher the fee and/or hashing power the faster you can funnel but there is no reason it couldn't work at any fee level.

You are really thinking you can taint the transaction fee of any tainted transaction which is too "high"? Honestly have you thought this through?  How high is too high?  2%, 1%, 0.5%?  What happens when someone puts transaction involving tainted coins w/ "too high of a fee" (how high is too high?) on the network as a poison pill.  They will get picked up by pools and hashed into the next block.  The transaction fee will go to hundreds (or thousands of miners).  You think every pool (and that includes all 300+ nodes on p2pool) is going to run your checks and exclude that transaction from the block. As block rewards decline do you think any pool can afford to exclude valid paying transactions?  If a single one doesn't then tainted coins from a transaction w/ "too high of a fee" (as absurdly vague as that is) is now in hundreds of wallets.  Their coins are now tainted forever?  

If you don't taint the transaction fees of transactions which have "too high of a fee" then coins can be funneled through transaction fees.  If you unilaterally decide 2% is too high then it is trivially easy to create "cleaning" transactions with random fees between 0.2% and 1.3%?  By combining these with clean inputs, and real transactions, and hundreds of addresses one can make it difficulty to identify which coins if any should be blacklisted. 

So which is it?
transaction fees of tainted transactions are taint free (which allows laundering funds through bogus transaction fees)

OR
transaction fees of tainted transactions are tainted (which allows a single transaction to taint the wallets of hundreds of innocent miners)?

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It is readily apparent that checking for stolen coins will hurt your profits somehow, given the virulent 'sky is falling' assault on the idea.

As far as your personal attacks.  FUCK OFF.  I don't use stolen bitcoins, I have never stolen Bitcoins.  Me pointing out the ridiculously easy flaws in your scheme is academic.  If I can think of giant exploits in 5 minutes an attacker sitting on $250K will certainly have the motivation to think of more elaborate bypasses. Idiotic systems like yours will hurt fungibility of Bitcoin and that hurts all users including myself.

Currency must be fungible to be effective.  This basic fundemental of economics is why countries pass legal tender laws.  A dollar is worth a dollar because it is accepted everywhere in the US and buys you a dollars worth of goods.  If some dollars were worth more, and some worthless, and some accepted by some merchants and some by others it would fail as a currency.

Less fungible Bitcoin = less effective Bitcoin = less adoption = less value.  Given I have 20GH/s farm and have been mining a long time yes that means idiots like you have the potential to hurt my financial stake in Bitcoin.   If it means me running a transaction fees laundering service or regularly putting poison pills on the network tainting thousands of wallets to show you the futility of your (and Mt.Gox's) actions I will.
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March 06, 2012, 05:25:51 PM
 #42

The same day MtGox publish their "taint list" I'm cheking my addresses for stolen coins and sending poisonous pills to the blockchain as transaction fees in order to shotgun-spread the stolen coins to the miners.

Let's see where all this madness lead us.

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March 06, 2012, 06:43:52 PM
 #43

There are two possibilities for tainting: either when coins are mixed together, all of them are tainted, or just the tainted amount that was put in.

The first one has the problem of spreading like a disease.  Whenever someone accidentally accepts tainted coins, it taints all of their other coins.  Someone with tainted coins who did not realize this could spread taint to 100x the # of coins that were tainted to start.

The second one has the problem of being able to create a plausible deniability that you have in your possession any stolen coins. 

Say you have 9 stolen coins, and 1 legit coin.  You mix the coins together, and send 1BTC to each of 10 addresses.  Each of those addresses can plausibly argue, "This is the clean coin, the other 9 are tainted". 

Now, say the police have all 10 recievers in a room.  Which Bitcoin should they confiscate?  0.1 from each person?  1BTC from a random one?  There is no just way to reclaim the stolen material once it has been mixed like this.
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March 06, 2012, 07:03:47 PM
 #44

The same day MtGox publish their "taint list" I'm cheking my addresses for stolen coins and sending poisonous pills to the blockchain as transaction fees in order to shotgun-spread the stolen coins to the miners.

Let's see where all this madness lead us.

You'll have my help when it happens Smiley

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March 06, 2012, 07:58:16 PM
 #45


Currency must be fungible to be effective.  This basic fundemental of economics is why countries pass legal tender laws.  A dollar is worth a dollar because it is accepted everywhere in the US and buys you a dollars worth of goods.  If some dollars were worth more, and some worthless, and some accepted by some merchants and some by others it would fail as a currency.

Less fungible Bitcoin = less effective Bitcoin = less adoption = less value.  Given I have 20GH/s farm and have been mining a long time yes that means idiots like you have the potential to hurt my financial stake in Bitcoin.   If it means me running a transaction fees laundering service or regularly putting poison pills on the network tainting thousands of wallets to show you the futility of your (and Mt.Gox's) actions I will.

Back when currency used to be metal coins, people would clip them. Merchants would weigh the coins and then determine their value. So for thousands of years, one coin was not worth exactly what another one was. Obviously they were not very fungible, and somewhow they survived until currency went to paper much later on. Are you proposing we should have legal tender laws for Bitcoin?

We can also debate back and forth on the minutiae of attacks and defenses, but the reality is that people much smarter and far more intimate with the inner workings of the block chain will come up with better attacks and better defenses. Just as there is the perpetual arms race in cybersecurity, this too will be one. I don't have the skill to write the code for the client, or the knowledge to solve all the problems, but I can damn sure pay generous bounties to those who do.

And for the rest of you, please, attack the block chain as best you can. That which does not kill Bitcoin makes it stronger. At the end we will have a far more robust and secure system than you think, or we will have nothing. Either way it will be a grand adventure.
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March 06, 2012, 08:07:39 PM
 #46

Back when currency used to be metal coins, people would clip them. Merchants would weigh the coins and then determine their value. So for thousands of years, one coin was not worth exactly what another one was. Obviously they were not very fungible, and somewhow they survived until currency went to paper much later on. Are you proposing we should have legal tender laws for Bitcoin?
The metal weight of the coins was still fungible (if you know their composition), so merchants just had to use a scale to measure rather counting. Some coins had their silver content diluted, leading to them bein devalued or no longer accepted for trade in outside nations, and contributed to their issuers destroying huge amounts of wealth in their own nations.  This is why paper is now generally preferred, because a bill is exact, and you don't need a scale to measure it.

What do legal tender laws have to do this this?  Seems like a non sequitor.

Quote
We can also debate back and forth on the minutiae of attacks and defenses, but the reality is that people much smarter and far more intimate with the inner workings of the block chain will come up with better attacks and better defenses. Just as there is the perpetual arms race in cybersecurity, this too will be one. I don't have the skill to write the code for the client, or the knowledge to solve all the problems, but I can damn sure pay generous bounties to those who do.
I don't think "Someone is probably smarter than both of us so we should just give up trying to understand the problem" is a very healthy perspective to have on the pursuit of knowledge.  It doesn't have to be an arms race if you know the other side will outpace you, and it will be a net waste of time and money  Wink
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March 06, 2012, 09:25:10 PM
 #47

Back when currency used to be metal coins, people would clip them. Merchants would weigh the coins and then determine their value. So for thousands of years, one coin was not worth exactly what another one was. Obviously they were not very fungible, and somewhow they survived until currency went to paper much later on. Are you proposing we should have legal tender laws for Bitcoin?
The metal weight of the coins was still fungible (if you know their composition), so merchants just had to use a scale to measure rather counting. Some coins had their silver content diluted, leading to them bein devalued or no longer accepted for trade in outside nations, and contributed to their issuers destroying huge amounts of wealth in their own nations.  This is why paper is now generally preferred, because a bill is exact, and you don't need a scale to measure it.

What do legal tender laws have to do this this?  Seems like a non sequitor.

D&T mentioned that every government has legal tender laws. Forcing everyone to place the same value on every bitcoin is much the same.

Quote
I don't think "Someone is probably smarter than both of us so we should just give up trying to understand the problem" is a very healthy perspective to have on the pursuit of knowledge.  It doesn't have to be an arms race if you know the other side will outpace you, and it will be a net waste of time and money  Wink

I do not have the ability to write a firewall or antivirus software, does that mean I should just give up now and not purchase/use any?
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March 06, 2012, 09:40:29 PM
 #48

Oooh, I see.  We are just abandoning logical arguments and distorting each other's viewpoints now.   Well, in that case:


I'm out.
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March 07, 2012, 01:40:09 AM
 #49

I don't think that any major pool will support this "blacklist" or "tainting". At least I'm not going to use it.
Tainting is a very bad idea.

There is also another very bad idea that comes to many minds: trying to detect and re-mine "forgotten/lost" coins.

Welcome to my bitcoin mining pool: https://deepbit.net ~ 3600 GH/s, Both payment schemes, instant payout, no invalid blocks !
Coming soon: ICBIT Trading platform
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March 07, 2012, 11:36:12 AM
 #50

If you think you can destroy Bitcoin, then please try.

You seem to be dead-set to it, together with some folks at MtGox.

Well, if you think just by speculating about how to exploit a proposed new change I can ruin bitcoin, you are right. Obviously I am much more smart than all the bad guys out there, who would never think of this themselves. That's flattering, thank you.

But you are delusional. I don't want to ruin but protect bitcoin. The problem is the bad idea, not a quickly made up plan showing how to exploit it, written in first person for dramatic effect.

-coinft
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March 07, 2012, 03:29:09 PM
 #51

We are in the early development stage of Bitcoin. This talk of law enforcement is premature. While there should be tools to track transactions, Bitcoin security should be the priority to prevent theft. Other than providing a ledger, Bitcoin doesn't cause crimes. I don't see why there should be any reason to refuse bitcoin transactions because of tainted addresses. Restitution of stolen money rarely happens anyway and because Bitcoin is so secure, it will hardly be worth worrying about.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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March 08, 2012, 01:37:13 AM
 #52

...

Obvious sockpuppet is obvious. But we understand the need to hide your true identity.
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