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Author Topic: BTCGuild Luck  (Read 3823 times)
dropt
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July 08, 2014, 03:35:34 PM
 #21

Alright, dropt. Look, I understand your frustration. I didn't like going there either. What pool have you been using? BTCguild, as of last week, was giving me earnings corresponding to my hashrate, but after that, the number was significantly lower. Tbh, the last couple days I've been mining for a different coin to try and get an early stake in it, so I was at ghash for about 3 days.

What pool have you used that gives you "proper" projected earnings, or at least close to it? If you can give me one, I will withdraw my funds from ghash and switch right to it.

I'm not trying to support any nefarious activities that may be going on at ghash.io, and I will gladly support and donate to another pool, like I was doing at BTC Guild. So in all seriousness, I would like to know where you're doing your mining. I know the dangers of a 51% attack, and I will gladly support another pool if it is on-par or near ghash.io. I have seen you going around the forum and complaining about them, which is not a bad thing at all, I know. In fact, it's a positive thing.

If you can prove them and me wrong, I will jump on board.

P.S., I remember on Hashfaster's Litecoin pool, how they... Was it hashfaster? Anyway... There is some sort of coalition where the administration for the pool basically makes some sort of promise that they will stop a 51% attack within their own pool, either by throttling, or something. Does any such thing exist for BTC?

Edit: It was a promise that the pool won't go above 28% of network hashrate. Good luck getting ghash.io to pledge such a thing. *sigh*

Secondly, who the hell is Discus Fish?

And thirdly, did BTC Guild just like, half in the last few days? I could swear they had a much higher distribution just a few days ago. Weird...

... Yes what he said, where do we go to get a descent return and not help a 51%?

In an ideal world you guys would to some due diligence and pick an alternate pool that suites your needs.

For example: the most current metrics for Slush's pool:  171%, 105%, 104% (1 day, 7 days, 30 days):

So if you were mining at Slush, you would have earned 171% of your expected PPS earnings over the last 24 hours.

Of course this number varies fairly wildly day to day, but 105% over 7 days, and 104% over 30 days looks pretty decent to me.

Edit: Discus Fish is a chinese pool.
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TheJuice
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July 09, 2014, 07:28:51 AM
 #22

Alright, dropt. Look, I understand your frustration. I didn't like going there either. What pool have you been using? BTCguild, as of last week, was giving me earnings corresponding to my hashrate, but after that, the number was significantly lower. Tbh, the last couple days I've been mining for a different coin to try and get an early stake in it, so I was at ghash for about 3 days.

What pool have you used that gives you "proper" projected earnings, or at least close to it? If you can give me one, I will withdraw my funds from ghash and switch right to it.

I'm not trying to support any nefarious activities that may be going on at ghash.io, and I will gladly support and donate to another pool, like I was doing at BTC Guild. So in all seriousness, I would like to know where you're doing your mining. I know the dangers of a 51% attack, and I will gladly support another pool if it is on-par or near ghash.io. I have seen you going around the forum and complaining about them, which is not a bad thing at all, I know. In fact, it's a positive thing.

If you can prove them and me wrong, I will jump on board.

P.S., I remember on Hashfaster's Litecoin pool, how they... Was it hashfaster? Anyway... There is some sort of coalition where the administration for the pool basically makes some sort of promise that they will stop a 51% attack within their own pool, either by throttling, or something. Does any such thing exist for BTC?

Edit: It was a promise that the pool won't go above 28% of network hashrate. Good luck getting ghash.io to pledge such a thing. *sigh*

Secondly, who the hell is Discus Fish?

And thirdly, did BTC Guild just like, half in the last few days? I could swear they had a much higher distribution just a few days ago. Weird...

... Yes what he said, where do we go to get a descent return and not help a 51%?

In an ideal world you guys would to some due diligence and pick an alternate pool that suites your needs.

For example: the most current metrics for Slush's pool:  171%, 105%, 104% (1 day, 7 days, 30 days):

So if you were mining at Slush, you would have earned 171% of your expected PPS earnings over the last 24 hours.

Of course this number varies fairly wildly day to day, but 105% over 7 days, and 104% over 30 days looks pretty decent to me.

Edit: Discus Fish is a chinese pool.

I moved over to bitsolo. Time to go for it all.
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July 09, 2014, 07:46:45 AM
 #23

Aw shoot, and Slush's Pool was going to be one my choices to try, too! Damn!

Anyway, that does sound like a good deal, and equal to my earnings on ghash.io, so if I can stay away from them and get the same earnings, why not go with a less "dangerous" pool?

But I still wonder why BTC Guild has been so terrible lately. I mean, we're talking like 60% of expected earnings. Could a pool really be in a spell of bad luck for that long? Why would Slush's pool still be getting such high earnings?

I was thinking that ghash was more consistent because it's hashing power is astronomical. I figured that would keep their "luck" consistent because of their sheer hash power, but that doesn't seem the case. Anyway, switching to Slush's for now. Thanks, dropt.



To TheJuice. Bitsolo is a solo mining option, correct? I mean, unless you had like 20 TH/s, would it really be feasible? And I could be wrong, but wouldn't your earnings be very similar in pooled mining when compared to solo mining because you are putting in the same amount of work, but getting more plentiful but smaller payouts, rather than one extremely large one? I feel like if difficulty keeps jumping at the current rate, you could screw yourself. Be careful with that, unless you have the hash power to back up such a gamble!
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July 09, 2014, 07:53:33 AM
 #24

But I still wonder why BTC Guild has been so terrible lately. I mean, we're talking like 60% of expected earnings.

No, we're talking 90%.  Exaggerating just makes you look like an moron.

RIP BTC Guild, April 2011 - June 2015
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July 09, 2014, 09:20:09 AM
 #25

Alright, Eleuthria, time to lay down the facts, "bro".

My "expected" earnings at current hashrate are about .005 BTC/day.

At it's worst on BTC Guild, about, maybe 5 days ago? I was averaging consistently at .003-.0035, and that was for a few days. That's when I gave up on that pool for the time being.

Now let's do the math on that, at say an average of .0033. 33 / 50 = exactly 66%.

Forgive me for taking a second to ballpark it in my head, but this is what I experienced. Fact. I didn't exaggerate anything.

So to exaggerate by saying I'm exaggerating, only makes you look like a moron. Oh Eleuthria, trust me, I have far better things to do than go around slandering a Bitcoin mining pool on some forum.   

I don't know how things have been the last few days, because I just haven't been mining there.

Edit: I was wondering where your name sounded familiar from, and I guess you are owner of BTC Guild? Now if I were lying, I could just edit this whole thing, but I'm stating facts, at least from my own perspective, that's all. I do hope things are back to 90%, I really do. I have used BTC Guild for months now, but due to my bad financial situation, I was quick to switch to where the profit was, which isn't necessarily good either, but like I said, I can only talk for me.



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July 09, 2014, 09:24:00 AM
 #26

Got it, so you're using extremely short term figures.  Good thing you didn't try BitMinter during their just-under 3 day long block, you might've had 0%!


90.275% 1-month luck
91.472% 3-month luck (which includes the 1 month where there was a proven block withholding attack, meaning it includes the worst month in the entire history of the pool)
98.137% luck since September 2013.

These are out of 99%, which would be the target assuming a 1% orphan rate.

RIP BTC Guild, April 2011 - June 2015
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July 09, 2014, 09:28:23 AM
 #27

Got it, so you're using extremely short term figures.  Good thing you didn't try BitMinter during their 3 day long block, you might've had 0%!


90.275% 1-month luck
91.472% 3-month luck (which includes the 1 month where there was a proven block withholding attack, meaning it includes the worst month in the entire history of the pool)
98.137% luck since September 2013.

These are out of 99%, which would be the target assuming a 1% orphan rate.

Midterm figures don't look so great either...

Approximate Pool Luck* (24H / 3D / 1W / 2W / 1M / 3M / All Time): 72.854% / 79.282% / 81.896% / 81.844% / 90.275% / 91.472% / 98.137%


Something is broken. I've supported BTCGuild for a long time but the pool will soon die if this doesn't turnaround very soon.
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July 09, 2014, 09:39:18 AM
 #28

Got it, so you're using extremely short term figures.  Good thing you didn't try BitMinter during their 3 day long block, you might've had 0%!


90.275% 1-month luck
91.472% 3-month luck (which includes the 1 month where there was a proven block withholding attack, meaning it includes the worst month in the entire history of the pool)
98.137% luck since September 2013.

These are out of 99%, which would be the target assuming a 1% orphan rate.

Midterm figures don't look so great either...

Approximate Pool Luck* (24H / 3D / 1W / 2W / 1M / 3M / All Time): 72.854% / 79.282% / 81.896% / 81.844% / 90.275% / 91.472% / 98.137%


Something is broken. I've supported BTCGuild for a long time but the pool will soon die if this doesn't turnaround very soon.

At under 10% of the network, calling 2 weeks "midterm" is one hell of a stretch.

RIP BTC Guild, April 2011 - June 2015
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April 07, 2015, 09:13:46 PM
 #29

Pool Luck* (24H / 3D / 1W / 2W / 1M / 3M / All Time): 62.888% / 76.267% / 88.769% / 90.841% / 95.706% / 91.032% / 96.847%

very lame.. especially with a 2% fee

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April 07, 2015, 11:16:05 PM
 #30

Pool Luck* (24H / 3D / 1W / 2W / 1M / 3M / All Time): 62.888% / 76.267% / 88.769% / 90.841% / 95.706% / 91.032% / 96.847%

very lame.. especially with a 2% fee

That luck would be better with a 0% fee?  Bad luck is bad luck regardless of fee's.

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April 07, 2015, 11:48:37 PM
 #31

Pool Luck* (24H / 3D / 1W / 2W / 1M / 3M / All Time): 62.888% / 76.267% / 88.769% / 90.841% / 95.706% / 91.032% / 96.847%

very lame.. especially with a 2% fee

That luck would be better with a 0% fee?  Bad luck is bad luck regardless of fee's.
Depends on if the luck% takes the fee into consideration ...

If it does, then the pool block luck is higher than that.
If it doesn't, then the payout PPS% is lower than that.

... also depends on what orphans are counted as ...

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April 08, 2015, 12:25:44 AM
 #32

Pool Luck* (24H / 3D / 1W / 2W / 1M / 3M / All Time): 62.888% / 76.267% / 88.769% / 90.841% / 95.706% / 91.032% / 96.847%

very lame.. especially with a 2% fee

That luck would be better with a 0% fee?  Bad luck is bad luck regardless of fee's.
Depends on if the luck% takes the fee into consideration ...

If it does, then the pool block luck is higher than that.
If it doesn't, then the payout PPS% is lower than that.

... also depends on what orphans are counted as ...

So luck could really be 64.888% or 60.888%.  Hmm, it's still bad luck.

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April 08, 2015, 12:26:39 AM
Last edit: April 08, 2015, 09:16:08 AM by aurel57
 #33

Our 3-month luck is 100% the fault of the block withholding.  That effect will keep our 3-month luck down until that activity (most of May and early June) is no longer a part of the 3-month average.
With all due respect, that's ridiculous.  Guild's 3-month luck will never reach 100% (99% + orphan) or above if the daily, weekly, and monthly values are sub 99% consistently, which they have been for months now.

Quote
The group that did the withholding is the ONLY EVER PROVEN block withholding to take place.  And what happened?  Their accounts were frozen with what few coins were not yet paid.  They were notified, and after days of communication the problem was found.  Their explanation and looking at their share history clearly pointed it was a software glitch related to a 32-bit integer overflow.  It was discarding shares with a difficulty greater than 2^32 due to the overflow.  48 hours later they resumed mining on BTC Guild and after finding multiple blocks they had their accounts unfrozen.
And you put your thumbs in your ears yelling at everyone saying "everything is fine".  Low and behold there was a withholding attack underway even though it was innocent.  I don't believe that there aren't similar issues, either intentional or otherwise, currently taking place on Guild.  However, I'm well aware that detecting those actors and isolating them is near impossible.  Don't take it personally, but shit is happening on your pool whether you'd like to admit it or not.

Quote
We are at 91.6% out of ~99% expected (orphans make 100% unlikely) for the month.  That 1-month average has varied from 91% to 97% over the last 2 weeks.  All it takes are a few long blocks to drastically change the averages.  All it takes are a few really fast blocks to drastically change them right back.
This is true, but I'm watching the long term luck continue to drop.  Previous to early 2014 Guild was always a good percent or two above 100.  I know there's been suggestion from users/talk of removing that stat all together.  I'm glad you haven't because that would reek of sweeping the facts under the carpet.

Quote
They are going to swing more drastically and more wildly as time goes on, because public pools will be gone within a year unless something changes drastically in the mining ecosystem.  All the major public pools are now under 20% of the network combined.  
Short term variance is expected, especially in smaller pools.  However, we all know the common arguement to the contrary is that the variance over time evens out.  In this case, "over time" is showing that there are problems and the organic balancing of variance isn't occuring.



Before you lose your shit as usual, I'd like to sympathize with you.  I love Guild, and I greatly appreciate you as an operator, full stop.  I've been mining with you since Jan of 2012 and hate to leave, but it is what it is.  

I thought Eligius froze and confiscated @400BTC from a block withholding miner? ( not sure if those coins where ever paid out to the miners that got ripped off)
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April 08, 2015, 11:16:32 AM
Last edit: April 08, 2015, 11:55:49 AM by kano
 #34

Pool Luck* (24H / 3D / 1W / 2W / 1M / 3M / All Time): 62.888% / 76.267% / 88.769% / 90.841% / 95.706% / 91.032% / 96.847%

very lame.. especially with a 2% fee

That luck would be better with a 0% fee?  Bad luck is bad luck regardless of fee's.
Depends on if the luck% takes the fee into consideration ...

If it does, then the pool block luck is higher than that.
If it doesn't, then the payout PPS% is lower than that.

... also depends on what orphans are counted as ...

So luck could really be 64.888% or 60.888%.  Hmm, it's still bad luck.
What's the CDF[Erl] of that 24hr number?

It seems quite common for people to see a low luck number and not take into consideration how often that is expected to happen.
If one was to assume they got 3 blocks with an average luck of 63% (i.e. mean diff% of 1.59%) - the CDF[Erl] is ... 0.85 ... so very roughly once a week, 3 blocks are expected to be below 63% luck Tongue

Of course at 3 months, 91% luck certainly seems pretty bad for their hash rate ...
Assuming average about 4 blocks a day for 90 days - 360 blocks luck 91% (i.e. mean diff% 109.9%) - the CDF[Erl] is ... 0.967 - ouch Tongue
So since that's 3 months worth, you expect that or worse about ... once every 7.5 years Tongue

Of course the above is assuming I've calculated them correctly and properly understood organofcorti's explanations of how to calculate them Smiley

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April 08, 2015, 02:01:34 PM
 #35

Pool Luck* (24H / 3D / 1W / 2W / 1M / 3M / All Time): 62.888% / 76.267% / 88.769% / 90.841% / 95.706% / 91.032% / 96.847%

very lame.. especially with a 2% fee

That luck would be better with a 0% fee?  Bad luck is bad luck regardless of fee's.
you fucks think your so intelligent you're fucking stupid.

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April 08, 2015, 04:09:01 PM
 #36

Pool Luck* (24H / 3D / 1W / 2W / 1M / 3M / All Time): 62.888% / 76.267% / 88.769% / 90.841% / 95.706% / 91.032% / 96.847%

very lame.. especially with a 2% fee

That luck would be better with a 0% fee?  Bad luck is bad luck regardless of fee's.
you fucks think your so intelligent you're fucking stupid.


Harsh, I think OP was voicing how people wouldn't use that pool seeing a 2% fee.

Hence why I prefer Antpool for my S4's.

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April 08, 2015, 08:54:07 PM
 #37

Pool Luck* (24H / 3D / 1W / 2W / 1M / 3M / All Time): 62.888% / 76.267% / 88.769% / 90.841% / 95.706% / 91.032% / 96.847%

very lame.. especially with a 2% fee

That luck would be better with a 0% fee?  Bad luck is bad luck regardless of fee's.
you fucks think your so intelligent you're fucking stupid.


Harsh, I think OP was voicing how people wouldn't use that pool seeing a 2% fee.

Hence why I prefer Antpool for my S4's.
OP?  LOL... the original poster started this thread in July of last year and was asking about BTCG luck and if all pools used PPLNS.  Somebody (BCwinning) decided to revive this post from the dead and buried to show that BTCG luck is still bad.

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April 08, 2015, 09:16:55 PM
 #38

Pool Luck* (24H / 3D / 1W / 2W / 1M / 3M / All Time): 62.888% / 76.267% / 88.769% / 90.841% / 95.706% / 91.032% / 96.847%

very lame.. especially with a 2% fee

That luck would be better with a 0% fee?  Bad luck is bad luck regardless of fee's.
you fucks think your so intelligent you're fucking stupid.


Harsh, I think OP was voicing how people wouldn't use that pool seeing a 2% fee.

Hence why I prefer Antpool for my S4's.
OP?  LOL... the original poster started this thread in July of last year and was asking about BTCG luck and if all pools used PPLNS.  Somebody (BCwinning) decided to revive this post from the dead and buried to show that BTCG luck is still bad.

LoL I didn't see the dates.....had no idea this thread was that old!
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April 08, 2015, 09:31:29 PM
 #39

Pool Luck* (24H / 3D / 1W / 2W / 1M / 3M / All Time): 62.888% / 76.267% / 88.769% / 90.841% / 95.706% / 91.032% / 96.847%

very lame.. especially with a 2% fee

That luck would be better with a 0% fee?  Bad luck is bad luck regardless of fee's.
you fucks think your so intelligent you're fucking stupid.


Harsh, I think OP was voicing how people wouldn't use that pool seeing a 2% fee.

Hence why I prefer Antpool for my S4's.
OP?  LOL... the original poster started this thread in July of last year and was asking about BTCG luck and if all pools used PPLNS.  Somebody (BCwinning) decided to revive this post from the dead and buried to show that BTCG luck is still bad.

LoL I didn't see the dates.....had no idea this thread was that old!

Pretty old, and BTCG still the same :p I mined with them in 2013 and never since lmao

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April 08, 2015, 11:38:53 PM
 #40

Pool Luck* (24H / 3D / 1W / 2W / 1M / 3M / All Time): 62.888% / 76.267% / 88.769% / 90.841% / 95.706% / 91.032% / 96.847%

very lame.. especially with a 2% fee

That luck would be better with a 0% fee?  Bad luck is bad luck regardless of fee's.
you fucks think your so intelligent you're fucking stupid.


Glad to have your expert opinion on the subject.
Thanks,
Sam

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