Immigration: Myths and Misconceptions

[noviapriani]

This is an excellent discussion, published in a Southern Poverty Law Center blog, "teachingtolerance.org".     Not just the original post, but the entire discussion that follows is for the most part sane and rational... from those agreeing with the author, to those taking exception to certain statements.   So refreshing; outside of this particular asylum for nutballs (FSA) there really are people who give this issue some sane consideration.  I think we tend to lose sight of that when we get so caught up in swatting mosquitos here. 

   For those of you who do, I recommend reading the two pages of commentary.
10 Myths About Immigration

    Blogs and Articles:
     
    Immigration


Number 39: Spring 2011

Myths about immigration and immigrants are common. Here are a few of the most frequently heard misconceptions along with information to help you and your students separate fact from fear.

When students make statements that are mistaken or inaccurate, one response is to simply ask, “How do you know that’s true?” Whatever the answer—even if it’s “That’s what my parents say”—probe a little more to get at the source. Ask, “Where do you think they got that information?” or “That sounds like it might be an opinion and not a fact.” Guide students to find a reliable source and help them figure out how to check the facts.

Most immigrants are here illegally.
With so much controversy around the issue of undocumented immigrants, it’s easy to overlook the fact that most of the foreign-born living in the United States have followed the rules and have permission to be here.  Of the more than 31 million foreign-born people living in the United States in 2009, about 20 million were either citizens or legal residents. Of those who did not have authorization to be here, about 45 percent entered the country legally and then let their papers expire.

It's just as easy to enter the country legally today as it was when my ancestors arrived.
Ask students when their ancestors immigrated and if they know what the entry requirements were at the time. For about the first 100 years, the United States had an “open immigration system that allowed any able-bodied immigrant in,” explains immigration historian David Reimers. The biggest obstacle would-be immigrants faced was getting here. Today there are many rules about who may enter the country and stay legally. Under current policy, many students’ immigrant ancestors who arrived between 1790 and 1924 would not be allowed in today.

There’s a way to enter the country legally for anyone who wants to get in line.
Ask students if they know the rules to enter the country legally and stay here to work. The simple answer is that there is no “line” for most very poor people with few skills to stand in and gain permanent U.S. residency. Generally, gaining permission to live and work in the United States is limited to people who are (1) highly trained in a skill that is in short supply here, (2) escaping political persecution, or (3) joining close family already here.

My ancestors learned English, but today’s immigrants refuse.
Ask students to find out how long it took for their ancestors to stop using their first language. “Earlier immigrant groups held onto their cultures fiercely,” notes Reimers. “When the United States entered the First World War [in 1917], there were over 700 German-language newspapers. Yet, German immigration had peaked in the 1870s.”

While today’s immigrants may speak their first language at home, two-thirds of those older than 5 speak English “well” or “very well” according to research by the independent, nonpartisan Migration Policy Institute. And the demand for adult ESL instruction in the United States far outstrips available classes.

Today’s immigrants don’t want to blend in and become “Americanized.”
Ask students what it means to blend in to American society. In 2010, about 500,000 immigrants became naturalized citizens. They had to overcome obstacles like getting here, finding a job, overcoming language barriers, paying naturalization fees, dealing with a famously lethargic immigration bureaucracy and taking a written citizenship test. This is not the behavior of people who take becoming  American lightly.

The reality is that the typical pattern of assimilation in the United States has remained steady, says Reimers. “The first generation struggled with English and didn’t learn it. The second was bilingual. And the third can’t talk to their grandparents.” If anything, the speed of assimilation is faster today than at any time in our past, mainly because of public education and mass media.

Immigrants take good jobs from Americans.
Ask students what kinds of jobs they think immigrants are taking. According to the Immigration Policy Center, a nonpartisan group, research indicates there is little connection between immigrant labor and unemployment rates of native-born workers. Here in the United States, two trends—better education and an aging population—have resulted in a decrease in the number of Americans willing or available to take low-paying jobs. Between 2000 and 2005, the supply of low-skilled American-born workers slipped by 1.8 million.

To fill the void, employers often hire immigrant workers. One of the consequences, unfortunately, is that it is easier for unscrupulous employers to exploit this labor source and pay immigrants less, not provide benefits and ignore worker-safety laws. On an economic level, Americans benefit from relatively low prices on food and other goods produced by undocumented immigrant labor.

Undocumented immigrants bring crime.
Ask students where they heard this. Nationally, since 1994, the violent crime rate has declined 34 percent and the property crime rate has fallen 26 percent, even as the number of undocumented immigrants has doubled. According to the conservative Americas Majority Foundation, crime rates during the period 1999–2006 were lowest in states with the highest immigration growth rates. During that period the total crime rate fell 14 percent in the 19 top immigration states, compared to only 7 percent in the other 31. Truth is, foreign-born people in America—whether they are naturalized citizens, permanent residents or undocumented—are incarcerated at a much lower rate than native-born Americans, according to the National Institute of Corrections.

Undocumented immigrants don’t pay taxes but still get benefits.
Ask students what are some ways Americans pay taxes, as in income tax and sales tax. Undocumented immigrants pay taxes every time they buy gas, clothes or new appliances. They also contribute to property taxes—a main source of school funding—when they buy or rent a house, or rent an apartment. The Social Security Administration estimates that half to three-quarters of undocumented immigrants pay federal, state and local taxes, including $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security taxes for benefits they will never get. They can receive schooling and emergency medical care, but not welfare or food stamps.

The United States is being overrun by immigrants like never before.
Ask students why they think this. As a percentage of the U.S. population, the historic high actually came in 1900, when the foreign-born constituted nearly 20 percent of the population. Today, about 12 percent of the population is foreign-born. Since the start of the recession in 2008, the number of undocumented immigrants coming into the country has actually dropped.

Many people also accuse immigrants of having “anchor babies”—children who allow the whole family to stay. According to the U.S. Constitution, a child born on U.S. soil is automatically an American citizen. That is true. But immigration judges will not keep immigrant parents in the United States just because their children are U.S. citizens. Between 1998 and 2007, the federal government deported about 108,000 foreign-born parents whose children had been born here. These children must wait until they are 21 before they can petition to allow their parents to join them in the United States. That process is long and difficult. In reality, there is no such thing as an “anchor baby.”

Anyone who enters the country illegally is a criminal.
Ask students whether someone who jaywalks or who doesn’t feed a parking meter is a criminal. Explain that only very serious misbehavior is generally considered “criminal” in our legal system. Violations of less serious laws are usually “civil” matters and are tried in civil courts. People accused of crimes are tried in criminal courts and can be imprisoned. Federal immigration law says that unlawful presence in the country is a civil offense and is, therefore, not a crime. The punishment is deportation. However, some states—like Arizona—are trying to criminalize an immigrant’s mere presence.


http://www.tolerance.org/immigration-myths

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[sana8410]

Looking at the title and the author I knew before I opened the thread that the "myths and misconceptions" would be coming from the leftwing propagandists and lo and behold that's exactly what it is. Truth, more than 99% of all jobs created since 2000 have gone to immigrants here legally and illegally and with our unemployment numbers as high as they are the country simply cannot afford to continue allowing illegal aliens to come here and take jobs from Americans. And its a fact that illegal aliens lower wages across the board so while dems are bitching about the low wages in America they need to look to their party leaders when they place the blame. The gop has a proposal that would allow green cards for illegal aliens in job categories that show a shortage of qualified Americans, that's  a solution America can live with.  And I don't care how hard it is for immigrants to come here legally, if bush had applied those laws and stopped the flow of illegal aliens our wages would be up and our unemployment numbers down. But the democrats wanted to appease corps with low wages and themselves with voters so they screwed Americans.

[noviapriani]

Southern Poverty Law Center, also funded by Daddy Soros:

    Southern Poverty Law Center: This organization monitors the activities of what it calls “hate groups” in the United States. It exaggerates the prevalence of white racism directed against American minorities.

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=1237

[Spendulus]

This is an excellent discussion, published in a Southern Poverty Law Center blog, "teachingtolerance.org".     Not just the original post, but the entire discussion that follows is for the most part sane and rational... from those agreeing with the author, to those taking exception to certain statements.   So refreshing; outside of this particular asylum for nutballs (FSA) there really are people who give this issue some sane consideration.  I think we tend to lose sight of that when we get so caught up in swatting mosquitos here. 

   For those of you who do, I recommend reading the two pages of commentary......

Wow, an article for people who can't think for themselves!

So nice!  It tells me what to think.   I was so unhappy.  I was up all night worried about how my small brain might fail me on right thinking on immigration.

Thank you so very much, noviapriani.  Y entonces yo entiendo todo, y todo el mundo soy mis amigos!

[sana8410]

Ah yes, the oh so biased SPLC that is known to twist-contort-spin and spit out untruths.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/splcs-hatewatch-removed-from-fbis-list-of-hate-crimes-resources-116876/

SPLC's 'Hatewatch' Removed From FBI's List of Hate Crimes Resources


By Napp Nazworth, Christian Post Reporter
March 27, 2014|11:40 am

The FBI has removed the Southern Poverty Law Center's "Hatewatch" from its list of resources on hate crimes after Family Research Council requested that it do so.

"We commend the FBI for removing website links to the Southern Poverty Law Center, an organization that not only dispenses erroneous data but has been linked to domestic terrorism in federal court. We hope this means the FBI leadership will avoid any kind of partnership with the SPLC," Tony Perkins, president of FRC, told Paul Bedard of Washington Examiner.

FRC and other social conservative groups sent a letter, dated Feb. 10, to Attorney General Eric Holder and FBI Director James Comey, arguing that "SPLC is a heavily politicized organization producing biased and inaccurate data on 'hate groups' – not hate crimes."

[noviapriani]

This is an excellent discussion, published in a Southern Poverty Law Center blog, "teachingtolerance.org".     Not just the original post, but the entire discussion that follows is for the most part sane and rational... from those agreeing with the author, to those taking exception to certain statements.   So refreshing; outside of this particular asylum for nutballs (FSA) there really are people who give this issue some sane consideration.  I think we tend to lose sight of that when we get so caught up in swatting mosquitos here. 

   For those of you who do, I recommend reading the two pages of commentary......

Wow, an article for people who can't think for themselves!

So nice!  It tells me what to think.   I was so unhappy.  I was up all night worried about how my small brain might fail me on right thinking on immigration.

Thank you so very much, noviapriani.  Y entonces yo entiendo todo, y todo el mundo soy mis amigos!

So "happy" you think the article is "nice"....hope you will have a good night sleep tonight.......love your sarcasm!

[noviapriani]

Ah yes, the oh so biased SPLC that is known to twist-contort-spin and spit out untruths.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/splcs-hatewatch-removed-from-fbis-list-of-hate-crimes-resources-116876/

SPLC's 'Hatewatch' Removed From FBI's List of Hate Crimes Resources


By Napp Nazworth, Christian Post Reporter
March 27, 2014|11:40 am

The FBI has removed the Southern Poverty Law Center's "Hatewatch" from its list of resources on hate crimes after Family Research Council requested that it do so.

"We commend the FBI for removing website links to the Southern Poverty Law Center, an organization that not only dispenses erroneous data but has been linked to domestic terrorism in federal court. We hope this means the FBI leadership will avoid any kind of partnership with the SPLC," Tony Perkins, president of FRC, told Paul Bedard of Washington Examiner.

FRC and other social conservative groups sent a letter, dated Feb. 10, to Attorney General Eric Holder and FBI Director James Comey, arguing that "SPLC is a heavily politicized organization producing biased and inaccurate data on 'hate groups' – not hate crimes."

Tony Perkins?  Really? For the record:  There is absolutely NOTHING controversial, or even questionable,  in that OP. Sure did set your hair on fire though, didn't it.  

[sana8410]

Ah yes, the oh so biased SPLC that is known to twist-contort-spin and spit out untruths.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/splcs-hatewatch-removed-from-fbis-list-of-hate-crimes-resources-116876/

SPLC's 'Hatewatch' Removed From FBI's List of Hate Crimes Resources


By Napp Nazworth, Christian Post Reporter
March 27, 2014|11:40 am

The FBI has removed the Southern Poverty Law Center's "Hatewatch" from its list of resources on hate crimes after Family Research Council requested that it do so.

"We commend the FBI for removing website links to the Southern Poverty Law Center, an organization that not only dispenses erroneous data but has been linked to domestic terrorism in federal court. We hope this means the FBI leadership will avoid any kind of partnership with the SPLC," Tony Perkins, president of FRC, told Paul Bedard of Washington Examiner.

FRC and other social conservative groups sent a letter, dated Feb. 10, to Attorney General Eric Holder and FBI Director James Comey, arguing that "SPLC is a heavily politicized organization producing biased and inaccurate data on 'hate groups' – not hate crimes."

Tony Perkins?  Really? For the record:  There is absolutely NOTHING controversial, or even questionable,  in that OP. Sure did set your hair on fire though, didn't it.  

Its factual information whether you like the Perkins or not. Far more factual than the bullshit your author pulled out of his ass for  you to post.  Now would you care to refute any of the facts presented IE Perkins or the facts I presented about employment and wages?  Because if you do I'd like to add that the number of illegal aliens increases by around 75% every time we grant amnesty because that amnesty only encourages more illegal aliens to illegally cross the border and wait for their reward.

[TECSHARE]

SPLC is garbage, every drop of information they distribute has an agenda. Additionally this is also from 2011, a lot has changed policy wise since then. How come no one ever mentions how much easier smuggling guns, drugs, and sex trafficking back and forth is with a completely open border?

[Chef Ramsay]

SPLC is garbage, every drop of information they distribute has an agenda. Additionally this is also from 2011, a lot has changed policy wise since then. How come no one ever mentions how much easier smuggling guns, drugs, and sex trafficking back and forth is with a completely open border?

I'm for a more streamlined visa system which offers permanent work visas that allows whoever wants to work here to do so and creates less of an incentive to want to become a citizen if they planned on retiring back to their home country anyway. And, you need to have border points of entry to screen out criminal and other elements. The bottom line is we can't be the drop off zone for the diseased and poor of the world.

[sana8410]

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/01/16/Exclusive-Report-Texas-taxpayers-paying-billions-of-dollars-to-fund-illegal-aliens-in-state


“After a brief hiatus that coincided with the worst of the economic recession, Texas’s illegal alien population is on the rise again,” the opening paragraph of the report reads. “There are about 1,810,000 illegal aliens residing in Texas — 70,000 more than resided in the state in 2010 when we estimated the fiscal burden at nearly $8.9 billion annually.”

Specifically, in 2013 alone, FAIR estimates Texans were on the hook for $12.1 billion because of illegal immigration in the state. “That amounts to more than $1,197 for every Texas household headed by a native-born or naturalized U.S. citizen,” FAIR wrote. “The taxes paid by illegal aliens — estimated at $1.27 billion per year — do not come close to paying for those outlays, but we include an estimate of revenue from sales taxes, property taxes, alcohol taxes, and cigarette taxes.”


Here, remember this the next time your taxes go up to pay for state services. Remember this the next time some American family is in need of medical care they can't afford. And then remember that it was you and people like you that said screw the American in need, illegal aliens come first.

[zolace]

 Okay -- Let's see what we have:

The first problem is using the word "immigrant" as a synonym for "alien." They are not the same. A couple of our members said that the terminology isn't important. I beg to differ. If we are to discuss in a sane and rational way, as Jackie says she wants, then we must also discuss in an honest and accurate way as well. Words do matter.

Most immigrants are here illegally.

No immigrants are here illegally unless they have run afoul of the law after arriving. Illegal aliens are here illegally.

It's just as easy to enter the country legally today as it was when my ancestors arrived.

Liberals want regulation after regulation and love them. Then when they become difficult for a favored constituency to follow they advocate just not following them. Go figure. Want to streamline the legal immigration process and make it simple and fair? I do. Granting amnesty and making allowances for those didn't bother with the process at all is not the way.

There’s a way to enter the country legally for anyone who wants to get in line.

Just like you don't invite everyone you know to your party, we don't invite everyone who is alive to move here. But for the qualified, there is a way. Millions have managed to do it.

My ancestors learned English, but today’s immigrants refuse.

Going through the formal immigration process entails learning English. Wading across the Rio Grande does not.

Today’s immigrants don’t want to blend in and become “Americanized.”

For most immigrants the desire to be American is strong and they work hard at it. For those who hoist Mexican flags at every opportunity and insist on being educated and accommodated in Spanish or other languages, they are not Americans and obviously don't want to be. They are welcome to depart or be deported.

Immigrants take good jobs from Americans.

Any job is a good job, especially if you don't have one at the moment. Illegal aliens keep wages and benefits artificially low by working under the radar and influencing market forces that would do more for raising wages than any federal minimum wage law can.

Undocumented immigrants bring crime.

Undocumented means illegal. Legal immigrants are documented to the high heavens. And while most people of any group are likely to be well-behaved the crime that illegal aliens commit wouldn't be committed at all if they were not here.

Undocumented immigrants don’t pay taxes but still get benefits.

Most of the taxes mentioned are more like user fees although it does strike me as funny that when illegal aliens pay sales tax it is a good thing but when the suggestion is made that we all fund the government with a sales tax like the Fair Tax liberals act like it is awful to even contemplate and they wail about how unfair it would be to enact.

The United States is being overrun by immigrants like never before.

Even one person breaking in line, which is what illegal aliens do, is one too many. It isn't the numbers, it is the principle and it is the law. Try going to just about any other country on the planet by dropping in uninvited and see what kind of welcome you get. If we are to be "mainstream," a favorite thing for liberals to want us to be, then we should be as strict on people coming over our borders as the rest of the world is.

Anyone who enters the country illegally is a criminal.

If you break a law you are a criminal. There are, of course, varying degrees of severity in the criminal code. So? Unlawful presence is a civil offense. Crossing the border illegally is a crime. You can be here legally and then your presence becomes unlawful for a variety of reasons. But hopping the border is a willful criminal act. Once again, liberals try to compare apples and oranges.

[Rigon]

A good article with useful, accurate facts. It is unfortunate that some of our friends prefer "alternative" facts that, at the end of the day, stereotype immigrants...or, as zolace demands, Aliens.

Why does zolace demand one term over another? Because one demeans the Other more and that is his preference.

The first step towards solving the complex issues of Immigration is to just honestly deal with the facts and cast aside the stereotypes...a process we apparently cannot yet accomplish.

BTY, without Immigrants our birth rates and population growth would be negative, like those in many European countries, an outcome that is not good for America.

[sana8410]

A good article with useful, accurate facts. It is unfortunate that some of our friends prefer "alternative" facts that, at the end of the day, stereotype immigrants...or, as zolace demands, Aliens.

Why does zolace demand one term over another? Because one demeans the Other more and that is his preference.

The first step towards solving the complex issues of Immigration is to just honestly deal with the facts and cast aside the stereotypes...a process we apparently cannot yet accomplish.

BTY, without Immigrants our birth rates and population growth would be negative, like those in many European countries, an outcome that is not good for America.

Blind to the truth and ignorant of the facts. Nothing like a tolerant liberal who refuses any fact that doesn't suit their agenda. And here is another fact you won't like and another truth you'll ignore.
Alien Law & Legal Definition   http://definitions.uslegal.com/a/alien/

An alien is a person who is not a citizen of the country in which they live. A resident alien is a person who has been allowed to permanently reside in the country by immigration authorities but has not been granted citizenship. Illegal aliens are those who have sneaked into the country or stayed beyond the time allowed on a visa.

[JohnnyLightning]

I could be made into a proponent of open borders if two things happen:

1. No more federal welfare of any kind.  None.
2. Reciprocity.  If a guy can walk in the door uninvited from Mexico, get a job, buy property and vote, then I have no problem with that as long as I can do the same in his native country.

Until these two things happen, put up a giant wall.  I won't be holding my breath.

[fdiini]

I could be made into a proponent of open borders if two things happen:

1. No more federal welfare of any kind.  None.
2. Reciprocity.  If a guy can walk in the door uninvited from Mexico, get a job, buy property and vote, then I have no problem with that as long as I can do the same in his native country.

Until these two things happen, put up a giant wall.  I won't be holding my breath.

1) is enough for me.

Having access to cheap labor is not a bad thing.

[Wilikon]

Alexandra Pelosi on humanitarian crisis at the border

http://youtu.be/6n3qEBfbeA8

"Cartel Members"

[Wilikon]

Welcome to the land of false hope

By Alexandra Pelosi

The rumor is spreading around the pueblos! America is taking care of women and children.

The coyotes, people who help smuggle migrants across the border, and cartels are swarming in like vultures, scooping up their prey and escorting them by bus to the Mexican-American border, where they simply throw up a ladder and instruct everyone to climb up, jump into America and wait for Border Patrol to come along and rescue them.

So, of course, all the young vulnerable, migrant women who just got to America that I spoke with saw the Border Patrol as the heroes who came to assist them on their journey. They all said that when they saw Border Patrol, they finally felt safe and happy to have survived their harrowing odyssey to get to the Promised Land.

To this day, they don’t seem to grasp that they were apprehended. Once taken into custody, the migrants are given food and shelter, and deportation documents – which they keep referring to as their “papers.” After they are processed, the women with infants who claim to have family members in America are released – with documents that have a court date for a deportation hearing in a location near their kin.

Once the border-crossers have been processed by the Department of Homeland Security, they are released – so throughout the day, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement delivers them to the Greyhound bus station where they are dropped off and forced to fend for themselves.

These are very poor, uneducated women who speak Indigenous languages, so when they arrive at the bus station all they can say is, “I’m going to Tejas!”

“Where in Texas?” asks the humanitarian aid worker.

“South Dakota,” announces another mother with a newborn in tow, not capable of naming any town in that state.

“Where are you going?” asks the exasperated volunteer from the Guatamalan embassy.

“Florida” replies the 19-year-old mother.

“What do you know about Florida?” he asks.

“Not one thing,” she replies.

All the women say they have never seen a city as large as Tucson, Ariz.

With a lot of heavy lifting by humanitarian aid volunteers at the bus station, the women are eventually put onto buses for their cross-country road trips. They will have to change buses many times to reach their final destination – but at the first stop in El Paso, they all look like they just got off a rocket ship on a strange planet.

Since they can’t speak a word of English, they are paralyzed. Every time the bus pulls into a new terminal, they have to change buses, and they are completely lost in space. Even though they were given directions in Spanish, many have real problems navigating from one bus to another. So it’s unclear how we expect them to get to a courtroom for an immigration deportation hearing.

How is the mother of two heading to South Dakota without a word of English or a penny in her pocket going to make it to Chicago on July 17 for her court date?

Still, everyone I spoke with planned on showing up for their deportation hearings because they believe when they simply explain to the judge that they came here to give their children a better life, they will be granted permission to stay.

As the 4th of July approaches, a romantic would say that Arizona and Texas are the new Ellis Island – where the tired, poor, huddled masses are arriving in search of a better life. But not all of these newcomers are heading toward the America Dream.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/welcome-the-land-false-hope

[TECSHARE]

A good article with useful, accurate facts. It is unfortunate that some of our friends prefer "alternative" facts that, at the end of the day, stereotype immigrants...or, as zolace demands, Aliens.

Why does zolace demand one term over another? Because one demeans the Other more and that is his preference.

The first step towards solving the complex issues of Immigration is to just honestly deal with the facts and cast aside the stereotypes...a process we apparently cannot yet accomplish.

BTY, without Immigrants our birth rates and population growth would be negative, like those in many European countries, an outcome that is not good for America.

You use "tolerance" and veiled accusations of  racism as a cudgel to fight a debate you aren't intellectually prepared to argue. This is disingenuous and frankly more racist than anything I have seen here so far. Put your emotional knee jerk conditioned response aside and examine the facts.

[Spendulus]

A good article with useful, accurate facts. It is unfortunate that some of our friends prefer "alternative" facts that, at the end of the day, stereotype immigrants...or, as zolace demands, Aliens.

Why does zolace demand one term over another? Because one demeans the Other more and that is his preference.

The first step towards solving the complex issues of Immigration is to just honestly deal with the facts and cast aside the stereotypes...a process we apparently cannot yet accomplish.

BTY, without Immigrants our birth rates and population growth would be negative, like those in many European countries, an outcome that is not good for America.

You use "tolerance" and veiled accusations of  racism as a cudgel to fight a debate you aren't intellectually prepared to argue. This is disingenuous and frankly more racist than anything I have seen here so far. Put your emotional knee jerk conditioned response aside and examine the facts.

Good points.

I've seen a lot of confusion about the terms Hispanic, Mexican, illegal alien, immigrant and so forth.

"Mexican" is someone with Mexican citizenship, but some actual argue it's a derogatory term.

Someone here illegally is NOT AN IMMIGRANT.   Not definable as such.  Might sucessfully emigrate to the US, but isn't an immigrant de facto.  Someone who is not a US citizen who is an "Alien."  Someone here illegally not a US citizen is an "Illegal Alien."

[TECSHARE]

I could be made into a proponent of open borders if two things happen:

1. No more federal welfare of any kind.  None.
2. Reciprocity.  If a guy can walk in the door uninvited from Mexico, get a job, buy property and vote, then I have no problem with that as long as I can do the same in his native country.

Until these two things happen, put up a giant wall.  I won't be holding my breath.

1) is enough for me.

Having access to cheap labor is not a bad thing.

The problem is the cheap labor drives EVERYONE'S pay down. YOU ARE CHEAP LABOR.

[sana8410]

I worked with a guy from southern mexico that had legally migrated to Canada and was working in the US. When the day came that he was to be sworn in as a citizen of Canada I asked him if he was excited about his new citizenship. He said he was because as a citizen of Canada he could work anywhere in the world and make the big bucks so he could buy a condo in Toronto, pay if off and then retire in mexico on the profits. He had no real desire to be a Canadian much like many have no real desire to be American, they just want the perks that come with the citizenship.

[sana8410]

Then I worked with a guy who was born in S. Africa and migrated to Canada with the express purpose of migrating to the US. He was angered by illegal aliens and the thought of giving them amnesty when he and his family waited 5 years to legally enter and spent thousands complying with the law. He said he was proud of the day he became an American and was raising his children to be proud Americans even tho they were born in SA. His citizenship was something he was very proud of earning and it angered him that Americans would think so little of that right that they would give it away to criminals or anyone that simply walked across the border.

[zolace]

Then I worked with a guy who was born in S. Africa and migrated to Canada with the express purpose of migrating to the US. He was angered by illegal aliens and the thought of giving them amnesty when he and his family waited 5 years to legally enter and spent thousands complying with the law. He said he was proud of the day he became an American and was raising his children to be proud Americans even tho they were born in SA. His citizenship was something he was very proud of earning and it angered him that Americans would think so little of that right that they would give it away to criminals or anyone that simply walked across the border.

No one is "giving away" citizenship here!

[noviapriani]

I worked with a guy from southern mexico that had legally migrated to Canada and was working in the US. When the day came that he was to be sworn in as a citizen of Canada I asked him if he was excited about his new citizenship. He said he was because as a citizen of Canada he could work anywhere in the world and make the big bucks so he could buy a condo in Toronto, pay if off and then retire in mexico on the profits. He had no real desire to be a Canadian much like many have no real desire to be American, they just want the perks that come with the citizenship.

there is nothing wrong with immigration, that was never the issue... there is something wrong with ILLEGAL immigration.... thats the issue that the liberals don't want to discuss.... and so therefore they try to make it seem as if republicans are against immigration when they are against  ILLEGAL immigration... there is a bid difference....

[sana8410]

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/01/17/100-Increase-in-Previously-Deported-Sex-Offenders-Illegally-Coming-From-Mexico

The Del Rio Border Patrol sector, one of nine in total that exist along the U.S./Mexico border, is one of the less active sectors, and the CBP did not release information from the more active sectors. The sector, however, has seen eight previously-deported sex offenders in Fiscal Year 2014 alone, which began on October 1, 2013. The sector saw a total of sixteen previously deported sex offenders in the entire Fiscal Year 2013.

These numbers only represent the number of illegal alien sex offenders who are actually caught by Border Patrol agents, and the numbers do not represent the numbers who do not get caught — a number that is likely much higher. Further, these numbers are from one of nine sectors, and that the Del Rio sector is not as active with illegal crossings as are others; the numbers from all nine sectors are likely much higher.

The most recent case involves an illegal alien from Guatemala who was previously convicted in the U.S. of "Criminal Sexual Conduct- 2nd Degree-Sexual Contact" while he was illegally in the U.S previously. He was deported, then attempted his return. The illegal alien sex offender, Jose Bernal Barrientos-Mayorga, was referred to in a CBP press release as an "undocumented immigrant" rather than the legal term.

These cases echo another recent egregious situation where an illegal alien illegally entered the U.S., was deported, came back and sexually assaulted a woman in Houston, Texas, was deported again after prison, and then came right back illegally. In that case, the sex offender was simply set to be deported again by U.S. authorities.

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-Texas/2014/03/6/Illegal-Aliens-Convicted-of-Child-Sex-Crimes-Arrested-Near-Mexican-Border

27 Illegal Aliens Convicted of Child Sex Crimes Arrested Near Mexican Border
EDINBURG, TEXAS--27 illegal immigrants and convicted sex offenders were apprehended by U.S. Border Patrol agents in February. 15 illegal immigrants who are members of violent street gangs were also taken into custody that month. The arrests happened in the Rio Grande Valley area.

Two additional men, one convicted for murder and another convicted for voluntary man slaughter, were also arrested in the area that month.

11 of the arrested gang members belong to the Los Angeles-based Mara Salvatrucha gang, better known as MS-13. The four others men were members of the 18th Street gang.

Disturbingly, the majority of the illegal immigrants arrested for sexual crimes committed such assaults against children. Various charges against the individuals include felony child sexual contact, lewd acts with a child, sexual exploitation of a child, and sexual assault of a child.

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/illegal-immigrant-sex-offenders/2013/09/16/id/525878/


Nearly 3,000 Illegal Immigrant Sex Offenders Released Under Court Order

Some 2,837 illegal immigrants convicted of sexual offenses were recently cut loose from American jails to comply with a Supreme Court order that says immigrants cannot be held if their home countries refuse to take them back, according to The Washington Times.

That was just a small percentage of the nearly 59,347 released from jail as of September of last year due to the court order. Since they could not be deported, they were released under some form of supervision, the Times reported.

[Rigon]

and so therefore they try to make it seem as if republicans are against immigration when they are against  ILLEGAL immigration... there is a bid difference.... 

[sana8410]

and so therefore they try to make it seem as if republicans are against immigration when they are against  ILLEGAL immigration... there is a bid difference.... 

So, you want illegal aliens sent back? That's a switch, I thought you wanted them rewarded with amnesty and a citizenship. BTW all those criminal sex offenders that crossed the border, do you think they'll apply for amnesty or continue to hide in the shadows? And with all those new amnesty papers how long do you think it will take those criminals to forge new papers in another name?

[noviapriani]

and so therefore they try to make it seem as if republicans are against immigration when they are against  ILLEGAL immigration... there is a bid difference.... 

So, you want illegal aliens sent back? That's a switch, I thought you wanted them rewarded with amnesty and a citizenship. BTW all those criminal sex offenders that crossed the border, do you think they'll apply for amnesty or continue to hide in the shadows? And with all those new amnesty papers how long do you think it will take those criminals to forge new papers in another name?

liberalism is indeed a mental illness.... the liberals are all for illegals... nancy pilosi welcomed them at the boarder... obama and the administration will not send anyone back, the liberals want to give them welfare and food stamps.... illegal immigrants have more rights than legal immigrants according the liberals.... the liberals don't give a shit about legal immigrants...

[zolace]

"Immigrant" says nothing about one's nationality, or about how one entered a country. It simply denotes that someone has moved from a country of original inhabitation to the current country in which one lives. The terms immigrant and alien are interchangeable except for the status implied in the other, there is nothing that demands that we define the term according to immigration status except for you.

But what is heartening is that none of them have an argument against any of the actual points made, the best they can do is bluster and whine in their usual spiel.

We do often forget that the rightwing on this board is the marginal extreme, they represent but a teensy proportion of Americans, probably not even 1/10th of 1% in their constantly festering hatreds and grievances. There are far more intelligent boards out there--not all of them are the whirlpool of madness that this is: but frankly a) they'd be boring and b) I couldn't feel nearly as smart if I hung out with actually smart folks. I mean, seriously, the opposition on this board is laughably poor...

[sana8410]

and so therefore they try to make it seem as if republicans are against immigration when they are against  ILLEGAL immigration... there is a bid difference.... 

So, you want illegal aliens sent back? That's a switch, I thought you wanted them rewarded with amnesty and a citizenship. BTW all those criminal sex offenders that crossed the border, do you think they'll apply for amnesty or continue to hide in the shadows? And with all those new amnesty papers how long do you think it will take those criminals to forge new papers in another name?

liberalism is indeed a mental illness.... the liberals are all for illegals... nancy pilosi welcomed them at the boarder... obama and the administration will not send anyone back, the liberals want to give them welfare and food stamps.... illegal immigrants have more rights than legal immigrants according the liberals.... the liberals don't give a shit about legal immigrants...

The above is what you call relevant and important to the issue of illegal immigration and below is what you call a stupid factor of illegal immigration and not worthy of debate. And you make that statement while claiming intellectual superiority when if fact the issues you raised are superficial and pointless and have little to do with the reasons we have immigration laws.
  $200 billion dollars per year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens.http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANscriptS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

[sana8410]

Now to debate the issue raised above, while you lefties are whining about income disparity why are you promoting illegal immigration when the facts prove that it lowers wages across the board? Do you see the conflict there? Flooding the job market with cheap labor makes the rich richer and the middle class and poor poorer so why are you supporting greedy corps at the expense of Americas workers? Can you address that issue or is it still stupid for Americans to want a fair job market and wage increases? BTW I don't expect either of you to address the question because it would require an honest debate about the real factors regarding the costs to Americans. Once again the lefties side with greedy corps and conspire to keep workers wages down. And BTW driving up minimum wage only makes hiring illegal aliens under the table that much more attractive.

[Rigon]

Its amazing to watch these moon bats try to defend immigrants who have broke the law. Hence the term "illegal immigrant" which they have tried so hard to totally eliminate from our vocabulary by making it a politically incorrect term although it exact in its description.

Are we a land that believes in the "rule of law" or not? Under Obama it appears to be the latter. He seems to think that he should be able to ignore any law with which he does not agree. And since he is unable to get the democratically elected Congress to agree with him, he takes the law into his own hands or totally ignores the law.

Both Obama and Holder should be in jail cell right now.

[sana8410]

Its amazing to watch these moon bats try to defend immigrants who have broke the law. Hence the term "illegal immigrant" which they have tried so hard to totally eliminate from our vocabulary by making it a politically incorrect term although it exact in its description.

Are we a land that believes in the "rule of law" or not? Under Obama it appears to be the latter. He seems to think that he should be able to ignore any law with which he does not agree. And since he is unable to get the democratically elected Congress to agree with him, he takes the law into his own hands or totally ignores the law.

Both Obama and Holder should be in jail cell right now.

You ignore the thousands of convicted sexual predators that illegally cross the border and victimize Americans and instead opt to debate the use of legal terminology versus the pretty language lefties prefer and then claim you want to have an honest debate about illegal immigrants? Pathetic , simply pathetic.

Remember Chandra Levy? She is just one of thousands that would be alive today if our immigration laws were enforced, but the left seems to ignore these victims preferring to defend the illegal aliens who commit the crimes instead of the American victims of those crimes.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/metro/specials/chandra/ch6_1.html

While D.C. police focused most of their investigative efforts on Rep. Gary Condit and his relationship to missing intern Chandra Levy, they were slow to recognize another lead. It involved a man who was attacking women in the woods of Rock Creek Park.

The day Chandra disappeared, May 1, 2001, Ingmar A. Guandique, a 19-year-old illegal Salvadoran immigrant, did not show up for his construction job. Around that time, he went to stay with his former landlady, Sheila Phillips Cruz, the manager of an apartment building on Somerset Place NW. Cruz noticed that Guandique looked like he had been in a bad fight, his face battered and bruised. He had a fat lip, a bloody blemish in his eye and scratches around his throat.

Guandique (pronounced GWAN-dee-keh) had come from a hard-scrabble hamlet near the city of San Miguel in El Salvador. His father was kidnapped by guerrillas during the Salvadoran civil war, before Guandique's birth in 1981, and later executed. The son grew up in an adobe house with a dirt floor, no running water and an open pit for cooking meals. The home was decorated with family photos and pictures of Jesus Christ and the Virgin Mary taped to pink and white sheets of plastic that served as wallpaper.

Guandique wanted a better life in America. A friend of the family lent him $5,000 to pay a "coyote" to smuggle him across the Texas border with more than 50 others. The seventh-grade dropout left home in January 2000, eventually swimming across the Rio Grande, crossing the border near Piedras Negras and arriving in Houston in March 2000. From there, he made his way to Washington to join his half-brother, Huber, and other family friends.

Within a month, Guandique began picking up day jobs on construction sites and sending small amounts of money back home. He also had financial obligations to the family that paid his way. And he had another obligation: his ex-girlfriend, who was pregnant when Guandique left and later gave birth to a boy.

In fall 2000, Guandique met a new girl, Iris Portillo. She was a tiny woman; even though she was a year older than Guandique, she looked 13. In early 2001, Guandique began to live with Portillo and her mother in their apartment on Somerset Place. The young couple took walks near the National Zoo and picnicked in Rock Creek Park. He was enamored with her. He bought her jewelry, including a ring at a Georgia Avenue pawn shop.

[Rigon]

Its amazing to watch these moon bats try to defend immigrants who have broke the law. Hence the term "illegal immigrant" which they have tried so hard to totally eliminate from our vocabulary by making it a politically incorrect term although it exact in its description.

Are we a land that believes in the "rule of law" or not? Under Obama it appears to be the latter. He seems to think that he should be able to ignore any law with which he does not agree. And since he is unable to get the democratically elected Congress to agree with him, he takes the law into his own hands or totally ignores the law.

Both Obama and Holder should be in jail cell right now.

You ignore the thousands of convicted sexual predators that illegally cross the border and victimize Americans and instead opt to debate the use of legal terminology versus the pretty language lefties prefer and then claim you want to have an honest debate about illegal immigrants? Pathetic , simply pathetic.

Remember Chandra Levy? She is just one of thousands that would be alive today if our immigration laws were enforced, but the left seems to ignore these victims preferring to defend the illegal aliens who commit the crimes instead of the American victims of those crimes.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/metro/specials/chandra/ch6_1.html

While D.C. police focused most of their investigative efforts on Rep. Gary Condit and his relationship to missing intern Chandra Levy, they were slow to recognize another lead. It involved a man who was attacking women in the woods of Rock Creek Park.

The day Chandra disappeared, May 1, 2001, Ingmar A. Guandique, a 19-year-old illegal Salvadoran immigrant, did not show up for his construction job. Around that time, he went to stay with his former landlady, Sheila Phillips Cruz, the manager of an apartment building on Somerset Place NW. Cruz noticed that Guandique looked like he had been in a bad fight, his face battered and bruised. He had a fat lip, a bloody blemish in his eye and scratches around his throat.

Guandique (pronounced GWAN-dee-keh) had come from a hard-scrabble hamlet near the city of San Miguel in El Salvador. His father was kidnapped by guerrillas during the Salvadoran civil war, before Guandique's birth in 1981, and later executed. The son grew up in an adobe house with a dirt floor, no running water and an open pit for cooking meals. The home was decorated with family photos and pictures of Jesus Christ and the Virgin Mary taped to pink and white sheets of plastic that served as wallpaper.

Guandique wanted a better life in America. A friend of the family lent him $5,000 to pay a "coyote" to smuggle him across the Texas border with more than 50 others. The seventh-grade dropout left home in January 2000, eventually swimming across the Rio Grande, crossing the border near Piedras Negras and arriving in Houston in March 2000. From there, he made his way to Washington to join his half-brother, Huber, and other family friends.

Within a month, Guandique began picking up day jobs on construction sites and sending small amounts of money back home. He also had financial obligations to the family that paid his way. And he had another obligation: his ex-girlfriend, who was pregnant when Guandique left and later gave birth to a boy.

In fall 2000, Guandique met a new girl, Iris Portillo. She was a tiny woman; even though she was a year older than Guandique, she looked 13. In early 2001, Guandique began to live with Portillo and her mother in their apartment on Somerset Place. The young couple took walks near the National Zoo and picnicked in Rock Creek Park. He was enamored with her. He bought her jewelry, including a ring at a Georgia Avenue pawn shop.

I am trying to imagine just who you think wants illegal immigration....but i can help, no one.

And when, may i ask, where our borders ever secure?

Never.

But, just so you know, they are more secure this day than ever in our history...more wall, more technology, more border patrol.

That we aren't sending enough back home? The Obama administration has expelled about the same number in six years as the Bush administration did in eight years.

On the topic of crimes...just what criminals do we embrace ever? none, so spare me your phony angst over illegals committing crimes, we have that angst over every crime from every source.

Look, I would love to take you seriously, but you do not consider the issues seriously, just  ignore facts and wail into the wind.

[JohnnyLightning]

and so therefore they try to make it seem as if republicans are against immigration when they are against  ILLEGAL immigration... there is a bid difference.... 

So, you want illegal aliens sent back? That's a switch, I thought you wanted them rewarded with amnesty and a citizenship. BTW all those criminal sex offenders that crossed the border, do you think they'll apply for amnesty or continue to hide in the shadows? And with all those new amnesty papers how long do you think it will take those criminals to forge new papers in another name?

liberalism is indeed a mental illness.... the liberals are all for illegals... nancy pilosi welcomed them at the boarder... obama and the administration will not send anyone back, the liberals want to give them welfare and food stamps.... illegal immigrants have more rights than legal immigrants according the liberals.... the liberals don't give a shit about legal immigrants...

I wouldn't necessarily call it a mental illness, although the point could certainly be argued.  I see it as the ultimate in selfishness, to reach into the pockets of others to fund their own pet causes, and feeling a sense of entitlement to our earnings while doing it.

[Spendulus]

and so therefore they try to make it seem as if republicans are against immigration when they are against  ILLEGAL immigration... there is a bid difference.... 

So, you want illegal aliens sent back? That's a switch, I thought you wanted them rewarded with amnesty and a citizenship. BTW all those criminal sex offenders that crossed the border, do you think they'll apply for amnesty or continue to hide in the shadows? And with all those new amnesty papers how long do you think it will take those criminals to forge new papers in another name?

liberalism is indeed a mental illness.... the liberals are all for illegals... nancy pilosi welcomed them at the boarder... obama and the administration will not send anyone back, the liberals want to give them welfare and food stamps.... illegal immigrants have more rights than legal immigrants according the liberals.... the liberals don't give a shit about legal immigrants...

I wouldn't necessarily call it a mental illness, although the point could certainly be argued.  I see it as the ultimate in selfishness, to reach into the pockets of others to fund their own pet causes, and feeling a sense of entitlement to our earnings while doing it.

I'm okay with calling what you so well describe a mental illness.

[hollowframe]

and so therefore they try to make it seem as if republicans are against immigration when they are against  ILLEGAL immigration... there is a bid difference.... 

So, you want illegal aliens sent back? That's a switch, I thought you wanted them rewarded with amnesty and a citizenship. BTW all those criminal sex offenders that crossed the border, do you think they'll apply for amnesty or continue to hide in the shadows? And with all those new amnesty papers how long do you think it will take those criminals to forge new papers in another name?

liberalism is indeed a mental illness.... the liberals are all for illegals... nancy pilosi welcomed them at the boarder... obama and the administration will not send anyone back, the liberals want to give them welfare and food stamps.... illegal immigrants have more rights than legal immigrants according the liberals.... the liberals don't give a shit about legal immigrants...

I wouldn't necessarily call it a mental illness, although the point could certainly be argued.  I see it as the ultimate in selfishness, to reach into the pockets of others to fund their own pet causes, and feeling a sense of entitlement to our earnings while doing it.

I wouldn't go as far as calling it a mental illness either, but their beliefs are simply wrong. Most liberals are really just socialists who want to stop people from working hard.

[BADecker]

America-as-Idea: A Fiction With Many Uses

Your average American generally and your average flag-waving, parade-attending American specifically, is likely to be unaware of two facts.

First, when Republicans and Democrats, "liberals" and "conservatives," in government and Big Media reference America, they have something very different in mind than that entertained by everyday Americans when the latter refer to their country.

Secondly, Republicans and Democrats, "liberals" and "conservatives," in government and Big Media, despite the appearance of consistent disagreement, actually endorse one and the same conception of America.  It is the conception of America that, for reasons that will later be disclosed, is championed by the Mono-Party, the Regime, or, as I call it, the Big GAME (Government-Academic-Media-Entertainment complex).

From this stance, America is an Idea.

America is depicted as the first and only nation in all of human history to have been "founded" upon a "principle" or "proposition."

Thus, like any other idea, like any other mental phenomenon, it is fundamentally immaterial.  What this in turn means is that while America is typically identified with certain particulars like a landmass, a government, a legal order, etc., ultimately it is a trans-historical, trans-cultural Idea that just happens to be instantiated—imperfectly instantiated—in such contingent, material forms.

In the last analysis, then, America is an Idea that, as such, is borderless.

As to the exact character of this Idea, proponents differ amongst themselves. Usually, however, America is conceived as a creed affirming "human rights," "Democracy," ideals of Freedom and Equality, or something along the lines of these abstractions.  But however its proponents decide to construe the Idea, they agree that America's identity is anchored in this timeless, immutable Essence.

This Idea or Essence is also normative.  It is ethical: The Idea is something to which all human beings the planet over should aspire.

In this vision of America-as-Idea, we see ontology and ethics converge seamlessly: America, ultimately, is a moral reality.

America-as-Idea also implicates its own peculiar epistemology.  Because the Idea purports to be a timeless object of discovery, it is said, as Jefferson says of our "unalienable rights," that it is "self-evident."

That is, the epistemology is unmistakably and inevitably rationalist.  Knowledge of the Idea is a priori, independent of experience. Hence, in theory, it is accessible to all rational creatures in all places and at all times.

This conception of America is the official, contemporary understanding promoted by The Big GAME, the Regime.  It is the vision of leftist ideologues and the Deputized Right, of "progressivism" and Big Conservatism (the Big Con) alike.

The question as to why or how it is that partisans of seemingly different stripes have managed to coalesce around the same conception of America can be answered easily enough even on the dubious assumption that such partisans really are of different stripes:

From the vantage of America-as-Idea, America is an ideological or creedal nation.

In other words, America so conceived is an ideology.

Read more at https://www.lewrockwell.com/2018/03/jack-kerwick/america-as-idea-a-fiction-with-many-uses/.

[Sithara007]

I wouldn't go as far as calling it a mental illness either, but their beliefs are simply wrong. Most liberals are really just socialists who want to stop people from working hard.

Well, what you have posted is true. I have a number of liberal friends, and none of them works for more than 20 hours a week. And the worst part is that all of them want handouts from the governments and they will complain if they don't get them.