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Author Topic: MinerSource.net and Black Arrow products - CUSTOMER SERVICE WARNING!  (Read 11040 times)
ronin4bits
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July 10, 2014, 05:31:58 AM
 #1

To anyone currently awaiting their Black Arrow products -- especially if you bought from minersource.net -- BEWARE!

I have taken issue with the fact that the X1s are being delivered nearly 3-months late AND not as advertised when the majority of us placed our orders. Rather than being treated with respect, I have been banned from their Facebook page and they are denying all requests for refund via their "customer support".

First, anyone still waiting on an X1 should know that this product is worthless now -- it was a marginal investment, at best, HAD THEY DELIVERED IN APRIL, but the subsequent near 3-month delay has relegated these miners to the dustbin before we even receive them. There are competitive products ALREADY shipping that offer nearly 5x the hashrate for the about $200 more than the X1 preorders cost (Bitmain S3 @ 480GHS for about $475 direct from Bitmain https://bitmaintech.com/productDetail.htm?pid=00020140704023505485N5SxDMkW0693).

In addition, the X1 was sold as a CONSUMER MINING DEVICE - meaning little, to no technical expertise was to be needed to run it - instead, they're now sending them out without any display, stating that they'll be available "in the near future". Minersource.net has posted directions for installing the "phantom displays", but this seems to directly counter the advertisments that this miner would be a "consumer device" -- anyone know any non-technical people that want to install a display...?? Me neither.

My customer service experience started on July 6th, when I contacted them via the support link on their site (https://minersource.zendesk.com/account/dropboxes/20165074). I respectfully informed them that I was no longer interested in receiving the X1, based on my points above, and I outlined a simple solution, which included either credit towards miners I wanted and could actually use, or a refund on the X1s. I have 2 X1s on order with them, so they have in excess of $750 from me.

I waited 2 days for an answer (despite their stated response time being 24 hours) before I called them at 1-844-646-3777. I was told that the person that deals with these types of requests had been on vacation and would respond the following day.

The next day, I did receive a response from them, which stated that I was S.O.L.. In that response, they said: "...now that black arrow has commenced shipping and our first bulk shipment is on its way, we will not be offering any more refunds or store credit until shipment of all outstanding orders is completed..."

Since they said their bulk order was "on the way", I didn't see any sense in them not being able to cancel my order. It's not like they had them boxed up and ready to come to me. I responded:"I disagree with this, especially since you haven't even received the product yet. It'd be one thing if they were in your shipping department being put into a box, this week; however, since that's not the case, I don't see any challenge in simply cancelling my order and refunding my money -- especially when we both know that the product you're about to send me isn't the product I bought."

I then received this in response: "We have already received a shipment of X1s, this will be our 2nd shipment. Let us know if you have any other questions."

So, I'm not sure whether they have, or have not received the miners, yet. Seeing that Black Arrow is still posting shipping pictures, and MinerSource's own blog posts confirmed the miners were set to ship to them on Saturday, 7/5, and they come from China -- I'm suspecting they still don't have them, but I have nothing but my own suspicions to base this on...

Either way, since I haven't been able to get any satisfaction from them via their support channel, I decided to inform other MinerSource customers to my concerns on their Facebook page; however, they promptly censured my comments and have now banned my Facebook account from further comments.

What are you hiding, MinerSource? Are you trying to deliberately keep your customers in the dark? Do you find it easier to silence unsatisfied customers, rather than, I dunno'... satisfying them??

I find this situation very troubling, as the Bitcoin community does not need another unscrupulous vendor making quick money by peddling vaporware for lying asic manufacturers. The entire X1 product has turned out to be a bomb -- it's not "consumer friendly" -- it's not on time -- and MinerSource is not doing anything except offering to recognize Black Arrow's "compensation plan" -- which is nothing but some discounts on the missing pieces, and additional machines of the same type.

What kind of solution is that?  "Hey, our machines aren't coming, so to compensate you, we'll sell you more for a little less..." wtf?

So, since MinerSource has become nasty and has turned against me -- I have re-requested a full and complete refund for the 2 X1s I have on order.  I am taking the following action to ensure they are compelled to act within the requirements of an ethical and law-abiding company -- all of which I've informed them I was going to do:

1. opening this topic on bitcointalk.org in order to inform the bitcoin community, and to keep my dealings with them transparent
2. file a complaint with the Denver/Boulder Colorado Better Business Bureau (https://www.bbb.org/consumer-complaints/file-a-complaint/get-started)
3. file a complaint with the Colorado Attorney General's office (https://www.coloradoattorneygeneral.gov/complaint)

Finally, absent of a complete refund, I will be filing a small claims case within their district in the State of Colorado -- Colorado recognizes amounts up to $7,500.00 as "small claims". If you're in the same boat and they won't work with you, the forms and instructions are here: (http://www.courts.state.co.us/Forms/SubCategory.cfm?Category=Small)

Ok. So I've shared my story and am warning ALL OTHERS to beware of MinerSource.net -- if the product you buy from them does not materialize, my experience has shown that they will take no satisfactory action to remedy the cause.

I will update this post as things progress -- we'll see if they do the right thing for me, or the tens? hundreds? thousands? of other customers that are still awaiting their VERY LATE and VERY INCOMPLETE Black Arrow products.
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July 10, 2014, 06:07:31 AM
 #2

I'm being given the same excuse for why I cannot get a refund for my order of a single x1.

It's sad that those of us who waited with a glimmer of hope that the final compensation would be somewhat reasonable are now getting fucked the most.

And for those wondering, yes it is illegal to deny customer  refunds before shipping.

http://www.business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

I also asked for 8 minion chips in exchange for my $370 order so I can buy 2 technobit miners but they are firm on providing only 6 and forcing us to either sell 2 or buy 2 extra chips.

If the chips cost ~$10 to produce each one then why are we being charged $60-100? I thought this first batch was "non-profit"?

BA, why don't you understand that if you want to survive this mess, you need to make sure your customers survive.

When you fuck us all over with such lousy, half assed compensation, you guarantee that you will never see any of our business again. Not mine at least.
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July 10, 2014, 06:34:09 AM
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I don't know dude. July 6 is kind of late to be asking for a refund. Most of the problems with the X-1 and X-3 are a result of the incompetence of Blackarrow not Minersource. They promised delivery in February not April but have stalled until July to deliver.

I made a purchase of an X-3 and I make a bad choice. I made a mistake but I am looking at ways to salvage a bad situation. Asking for a refund at this point is next to impossible. Do I want to take them to court to fight it out? Not worth my time or the expense.   I could have asked for a refund from Blackarrow in February when they were late but instead I took a chance that they would deliver in March/April.  It is now July and still no X-3. We learn from our mistakes and move on.

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July 10, 2014, 07:03:59 AM
 #4

I hope when i recevie X1, its can hash enough for paying power cost its used
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July 10, 2014, 07:08:08 AM
Last edit: July 10, 2014, 07:24:32 AM by Collider
 #5

It is probably the best course of action to simply open a small-claims filing if you have x1s or even one x3.

This proccess is pretty straight-forward and not costly at all, and you should pretty much receive a default judgement as it is obvious that you are allowed to cancel your order until shipment.
This is especially true if you already tried to get a refund say 2 weeks ago.

Minersource receiving their X1/X3s obviously does NOT constitute shipment, as it would mean any dealer who has the bought item in their warehouse would not have to refund you, even if you buy on a Sunday
(where it is impossible he started shipping...)

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July 10, 2014, 07:21:31 AM
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I don't know dude. July 6 is kind of late to be asking for a refund. Most of the problems with the X-1 and X-3 are a result of the incompetence of Blackarrow not Minersource. They promised delivery in February not April but have stalled until July to deliver.

I made a purchase of an X-3 and I make a bad choice. I made a mistake but I am looking at ways to salvage a bad situation. Asking for a refund at this point is next to impossible. Do I want to take them to court to fight it out? Not worth my time or the expense.   I could have asked for a refund from Blackarrow in February when they were late but instead I took a chance that they would deliver in March/April.  It is now July and still no X-3. We learn from our mistakes and move on.



+1  I got my refund back in Feb.I feel for you,but you shouldn't have waited so long........no one should have  Roll Eyes

Good luck in getting your investment back  Wink

I've bought S1's & little Gridseeds from minersource & have had a great experience!!!

"If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day long, you are the asshole."  -Raylan Givens
Got GOXXED ?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KiqRpPiJAU&feature=youtu.be
"An ASIC being late is perfectly normal, predictable, and legal..."Hashfast & BFL slogan Smiley
ronin4bits
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July 10, 2014, 07:41:47 AM
 #7

As jimmothy so correctly points out, if it hasn't shipped, under US consumer protection laws, I can request a refund.

And for those wondering, yes it is illegal to deny customer  refunds before shipping.

http://www.business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule
They don't need to do it, but the law is on my side--not theirs. There's also a reasonable expectation that the product would be received "as advertised", which they aren't. They're being sent piecemeal, so even if they sent me my units tomorrow, they aren't complete -- no display -- no timeline on displays -- and shipping them only "upon request".

The X1 was a consumer miner -- consumer technology products do not require assembly. Would you be happy if Apple told you that your new iPhone was coming without a screen? You could get one, but you'd have to attach it, and they have no idea when... It will still ring, but you won't be able to see who's calling. Would you have plunked down $$ for that? I wouldn't have -- and that's what I based my purchase on. They haven't made their plan for addressing this clear until just a week ago. The lack of progress on this feature, despite months of "updates" that they would be included in the final version, that right there, is enough to warrant a refund. Now that they're about to ship, it's clear they will be a "do-it-yourself" addition.

Do I want to take them to court to fight it out? Not worth my time or the expense.

As for suing them, I'm not sure if you're a US citizen, but let me explain to you how small claims courts work here. All that's required is for a plaintiff to file a claim with the court describing the cause for action against the defendant and defining the damages that are to be recovered (my order cost, in this case).

The process after that can vary, depending on the jurisdiction, but in Colorado, the claim will be received by the court. They'll review it and will set a trial date. They'll then serve them with notice -- this will be at least 15 days before the trial. The notice can be served by certified mail. So far, I've done nothing but explain my case to the court.

Now for cost -- and I'll paste directly from the CO/SCC rules, so you don't think I'm making things up, since this is usually the magic in small claims cases:
"Rule 507. Responses and Defenses: Each defendant shall file a written and signed response on or before the trial date. At the time of filing the response or appearing, whichever occurs first, each defendant shall pay the docket fee prescribed by law."

The costs of this type of preceding are, by law, covered by the defendant (MinerSource). So they'll need to take their checkbook to court just to answer the claim. Also, in cases when distance is an issue for plaintiffs (as is the case for me), the courts can provide an appointee to represent the plaintiffs action. So I don't even need to fly to Colorado to fight with them.

I hope when i recevie X1, its can hash enough for paying power cost its used

It won't.
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July 10, 2014, 08:02:01 AM
 #8

I've bought S1's & little Gridseeds from minersource & have had a great experience!!!

I have ordered from them before, as well, and was perfectly satisfied. I also engaged them in this situation professionally and politely -- in fact, I simply asked for them to credit me what I paid for these so I could buy a device I wasn't going to need to build -- my original offer had me sending them more money to cover the costs of additional shipping.

They gave me some bullshit answer about not being possible because Black Arrow had shipped the miners to them. That has nothing to do with me. I bought from MinerSource, not Black Arrow. MinerSource hasn't shipped me anything. Their smug answers piss me off.

I'm tired of hacks like this spinning up mining gear businesses, taking money from independent miners to get rich quick, then turn into college business students when things go sideways. I'm tired of having companies lie and misrepresent what they're selling.

All they need to do is refund my money. I don't want the X1s they are about to send because it's not what I ordered. They have not shipped them yet, so they have nothing to lose.

It's that simple, but they apparently want to go a different way.
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July 10, 2014, 09:28:58 AM
 #9

I've bought S1's & little Gridseeds from minersource & have had a great experience!!!

I have ordered from them before, as well, and was perfectly satisfied. I also engaged them in this situation professionally and politely -- in fact, I simply asked for them to credit me what I paid for these so I could buy a device I wasn't going to need to build -- my original offer had me sending them more money to cover the costs of additional shipping.

They gave me some bullshit answer about not being possible because Black Arrow had shipped the miners to them. That has nothing to do with me. I bought from MinerSource, not Black Arrow. MinerSource hasn't shipped me anything. Their smug answers piss me off.

I'm tired of hacks like this spinning up mining gear businesses, taking money from independent miners to get rich quick, then turn into college business students when things go sideways. I'm tired of having companies lie and misrepresent what they're selling.

All they need to do is refund my money. I don't want the X1s they are about to send because it's not what I ordered. They have not shipped them yet, so they have nothing to lose.

It's that simple, but they apparently want to go a different way.

You didn't quote me correctly "but you shouldn't have waited so long........no one should have  Roll Eyes "

ANYONE who waited this long to ask for a refund,well,ain't too bright........sorry  Sad

This was all too BFL'ly to me back when they announced the delay,so I got out ASAP,you should have too,as well as everyone else.

I do feel bad for you,but I'll say it again,you waited way too long to pull out  Sad

Hope you get your money back out of this fiasco,I truly do & I hope others learn from this as well.Best of luck!!  Wink

"If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day long, you are the asshole."  -Raylan Givens
Got GOXXED ?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KiqRpPiJAU&feature=youtu.be
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July 10, 2014, 06:55:04 PM
Last edit: July 10, 2014, 07:13:53 PM by ronin4bits
 #10


You didn't quote me correctly "but you shouldn't have waited so long........no one should have  Roll Eyes "

ANYONE who waited this long to ask for a refund,well,ain't too bright........sorry  Sad

This was all too BFL'ly to me back when they announced the delay,so I got out ASAP,you should have too,as well as everyone else.

I do feel bad for you,but I'll say it again,you waited way too long to pull out  Sad

Hope you get your money back out of this fiasco,I truly do & I hope others learn from this as well.Best of luck!!  Wink

So you want to insult someone just because they believed in a company that they bought from before -- giving the benefit of the doubt that they'd ship what they sold? You call me not bright... You don't even know me. At least I know the laws that exist and how to fix my problems.

I didn't create this post to get insulted by you, I did it to help make others aware of the tactics MinerSource is pulling to avoid delivering customer service.  Read it again -- REQUESTING A REFUND IS MY LEGAL RIGHT UNTIL THEY SHIP ME SOMETHING.

You appear to be one of few that didn't believe what they've been posting for months -- you're either psychic, or just a cynical asshole... either way, I'm glad you got your money back.

EDIT: I want to point out that I requested my refund on July 6th, 2014 -- this sets that date in stone, so any shipping that occurs afterwards will be seen as unauthorized in the courts eyes. Once I made my request, that was that.
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July 10, 2014, 11:50:46 PM
 #11

Your taking my view the wrong way dude...........  Roll Eyes

I'm just being realistic,you waited till they were shipping to ask for a refund,why did you wait Huh  Was there a miracle going to happen Huh

Did you think BlackArrow was going to give massive free stuff to compensate Huh

I really hope you come out ok on this debacle......but it was pretty obvious that BA was going to be really late & not offer a decent compensation package  Roll Eyes

If you read these forums at all & use the info from the other late ASIC makers,you should have seen this coming  Sad

I'm not very smart,my drinking & drugging took a BIG toll on my sense's  Cheesy

But I got smartened up from my dealings with......BFL & Avalon & with BlackArrow recently.....I will NEVER preorder again  Cool

Minersource is only doing what BA allows them to do,in response to refunds..........I'm pretty certain of this.........I could be wrong & hope I'm not.

Good luck in getting your money or your miner,I have only the best of wishes for you & everyone in this mess!!!!!!

"If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day long, you are the asshole."  -Raylan Givens
Got GOXXED ?? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KiqRpPiJAU&feature=youtu.be
"An ASIC being late is perfectly normal, predictable, and legal..."Hashfast & BFL slogan Smiley
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July 11, 2014, 04:55:58 AM
 #12

Your taking my view the wrong way dude...........  Roll Eyes

I'm just being realistic,you waited till they were shipping to ask for a refund,why did you wait Huh  Was there a miracle going to happen Huh

Did you think BlackArrow was going to give massive free stuff to compensate Huh

I really hope you come out ok on this debacle......but it was pretty obvious that BA was going to be really late & not offer a decent compensation package  Roll Eyes

If you read these forums at all & use the info from the other late ASIC makers,you should have seen this coming  Sad

I'm not very smart,my drinking & drugging took a BIG toll on my sense's  Cheesy

But I got smartened up from my dealings with......BFL & Avalon & with BlackArrow recently.....I will NEVER preorder again  Cool

Minersource is only doing what BA allows them to do,in response to refunds..........I'm pretty certain of this.........I could be wrong & hope I'm not.

Good luck in getting your money or your miner,I have only the best of wishes for you & everyone in this mess!!!!!!

I do apologize for being uptight with you Unacceptable. I admit, fighting with MinerSource and dealing with all that does have me a little short-fused, so I wasn't in the mood to be called dim on here...

In my own defense, I will say I waited so long because they kept claiming progress in their "updates" and I believed they would make things right; however, what changed this week was BA's announcement of the X2 -- that pushed me over the edge. That's when accepting something that was shipping WAY late and without parts I need for my own business (LCDs on stand-alone miners for non-technical people I help get into mining) -- I saw that as an insult, so I said I didn't want them -- then, when their initial response was WAY less than professional (which I now know how that happened and who was allowed to respond), it just threw fuel on my fire. That's why I waited until the 6th to request the refund, then went to 1000MPH on them.

All said, I have had a productive conversation with one of the founders of MinerSource and, while I won't divulge specifics about any solutions (NO, I'm not getting ANY special treatment), I will say that I am holding off on any additional action, for now. I will say that I believe they are honestly stuck in the middle of US and BA right now and they aren't getting much help -- I do believe what I've been told and I do think the solutions are coming down the pike that WILL BE WORTH SAVING THE RELATIONSHIP FOR.

Miners should be going out the door continually now until the backlog is cleared, so I should have my miners SOON (as should everyone else) -- then I've been promised that MinerSource will be figuring out additional compensation, once the dust settles -- the ideas that were mentioned to me WILL BE WORTH THE TROUBLE.

So, I'm standing down for now.
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July 14, 2014, 05:17:28 PM
 #13

UPDATE: I'm starting to feel a little anxious again, as I haven't seen or heard anything from MinerSource since getting off the phone with them...

Delays and bad information from a manufacturer are one thing -- lies directly from one of the "founders" will be quite another.  I'm giving them until the end of the week to make some tracking numbers appear for my machines, or my case gets sent to their Circuit Court. It's sitting on my desk, drafted and ready to go...

Keeping my fingers crossed.
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July 24, 2014, 06:24:16 PM
 #14

So I received my tracking number for both X1s, which delivered on Monday.

One of them is working great, but the other one blew its psu immediately upon initial startup - in spectacular fashion, I might add. Not much for sparks, but a lot of smoke...

MinerSource was great about dispatching a replacement right away, which I already received; however, now that this one has powered up, I see it's throwing about 97%+ hw errors - I've tried all the available clock speeds and this is as good as it gets - about 97% hw errors at max of 75-80GHS.

I have opened another ticket with them to report this machine, as it's completely unusable at this point.

So far, it looks like they did get machines out the door, but I am far from impressed.

EDIT [ADD]: this machine also runs 20 degrees hotter than the one sitting beside it.
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August 11, 2014, 01:15:29 AM
 #15

When did you pay for your order?

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August 14, 2014, 02:44:09 PM
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Update?

Dogie trust abuse, spam, bullying, conspiracy posts & insults to forum members. Ask the mods or admins to move Dogie's spam or off topic stalking posts to the link above.
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August 16, 2014, 06:52:14 PM
 #17

Update?
Don't believe there will be any, he didn't log in for 2 weeks.


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August 22, 2014, 12:26:34 AM
 #18

I've tried twice now to get a refund and both times they just say they are too close to shipping to do any refunds. I am playing with the idea of a small claims case but am very unfamiliar with the legal system so I don't know if I really want to get into that. 

As far as the units go those of us who stuck with em to the end are very screwed cause these things are basically expensive paper weights. ROI was dead and gone long ago on these things.

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August 22, 2014, 06:01:23 AM
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I've tried twice now to get a refund and both times they just say they are too close to shipping to do any refunds. I am playing with the idea of a small claims case but am very unfamiliar with the legal system so I don't know if I really want to get into that. 

As far as the units go those of us who stuck with em to the end are very screwed cause these things are basically expensive paper weights. ROI was dead and gone long ago on these things.

http://www.courts.state.co.us/Forms/SubCategory.cfm?Category=Small

All the info is here. Don't let them get away with what's rightfully yours

Trezor Hardware wallet AVAILABLE NOW!!! - https://www.buytrezor.com?a=4d90d26cd976
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August 23, 2014, 04:15:52 AM
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I've tried twice now to get a refund and both times they just say they are too close to shipping to do any refunds. I am playing with the idea of a small claims case but am very unfamiliar with the legal system so I don't know if I really want to get into that. 

As far as the units go those of us who stuck with em to the end are very screwed cause these things are basically expensive paper weights. ROI was dead and gone long ago on these things.

http://www.courts.state.co.us/Forms/SubCategory.cfm?Category=Small

All the info is here. Don't let them get away with what's rightfully yours

Thanks for the link I'm going to go ahead and submit a claim.

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