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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2011672 times)
brg444
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November 02, 2014, 11:33:03 PM
 #15401

People would be buying btc and sending them to different side chains, taking btc off the market and price should go up not down because of this? What am I missing?

This is how I see it but apparently there are greater risks this is not how this will unfold... I'm not certain anymore what the concerns are since they have mutated considerably since their first incarnation

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 03, 2014, 12:05:56 AM
 #15402

Maybe you mean there should not necessarily be a peg? Sure, but then it becomes just another altcoin.

There simply is no peg.
The SC contains bitcoin.
This is not a peg, it is a conveyance.
These are different things, and you ought not confuse people by equating them.  It runs counter to your goals.

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November 03, 2014, 12:11:06 AM
 #15403

Maybe you mean there should not necessarily be a peg? Sure, but then it becomes just another altcoin.

There simply is no peg.
The SC contains bitcoin.
This is not a peg, it is a conveyance.
These are different things, and you ought not confuse people by equating them.  It runs counter to your goals.

Not true.

The unit used in the SC is technically not the BTC.

The BTC is not moving around the sidechain, the scBTC unit it represents is.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 03, 2014, 12:17:04 AM
 #15404

MM SC costs a lot of resources.
MM SC has to keep(and collect) all transaction from SC.
No one will be able to keep all sc-blockchain (for 1,000,000,000 SC) and MM them.

this sounds reasonable
Quote
=> There will be only few (1 .. 5 ?) MM SC's
MM will be only used for change bitcoin protocol.



but it doesn't solve the increase in mining centralization as only larger mining pools will be able to MM.
You can choose mining pools. Mining pools operators will offer you more than 1 pool. They will offer you
 a) 1 pool for MM SC1,
 b) 1 pool for MM SC2
 c) 1 pool for MM (SC1+SC2)
 d) 1 pool for NO MM

not sure how that helps.  as you said, only larger actors can afford storing the huge data reqs for MM.  since they are the only ones who can derive income from MM, they push out at the very least solo miners and smaller pools.  that's centralization.
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and it doesn't solve the increased susceptibility to attack.

Please explain, I do not understand. How somebody will attack.

currently mining pie includes Discus 29%, ghash 18%, Knc 7%.  let's say Austin convinces all 3 of these pools to MM his SC.  well, right there all it would take is for Discus unilaterally to perform a 51% attack.  see Peter Todd explanation as to why this might be beneficial for Discus:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2k01du/peter_todd_on_twitter_the_sidechains_paper_is/clgpjpx

>as you said, only larger actors can afford storing the huge data reqs for MM

As I said, there will be only few MM SC. (for purpose of protocol change).
There will be 1B SC's using different security model (oracles, trusted entities, SNARK, .. who knows)

It is possible to create SC what is resilient to 51% attack of MC(every SC what is not MM with MC). This makes 51% attack on MC even more worthless.


and these 1 Billion SC's will move all tx's off the MC making mining failure almost guaranteed.
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November 03, 2014, 12:17:58 AM
 #15405



and these 1 Billion SC's will move all tx's off the MC making mining failure almost guaranteed.

how can you say that with such certainty.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 03, 2014, 12:20:37 AM
 #15406

I don't begrudge Cypherdoc not going into detail on dismembering these, because they aren't all that substantial as critic defenses go.  I don't know if it was sincere claim that these "debunk" all concerns for all people reading this or if that is just baiting.

Mistake 1 : Sidechains can protect the value through merged mining.
If at some point in the future, there is a particular SC that consumes the bulk of bitcoins in circulation, there is a non-zero risk to Bitcoin that there will be insufficient bitcoin transactions to support bitcoin mining in the later days.  It will have ended Bitcoin (albeit presumably for something better).  People are not always right, that's how we got to where we are with pervasive central banking

The bolded is what I cannot comprehend.

To suggest such a thing would happen is essentially to suggest that a sidechain would be created that carries all of Bitcoin features and more. So essentially, what you are speculating is that a sidechain could be created that is so innovative it removes the need for the Bitcoin blockchain.

But it begs the question : what features could be so compelling?

Anonymity? My opinion is this should be user-defined?
Faster transactions? This comes at the cost of network security

If such a chain emerges that offers these features in a user-defined manner without any tradeoff, then why should we not welcome it with open arms?
There are thousands of reasons one might not welcome this.
One may not be able to trade out of one for the other.
There could be a different scBTC that one might prefer.

I am with you in that I agree that there are good financial innovations.
Do you also understand that there are dangerously bad ones too?
Do you also understand that very often people will choose these dangerously bad ones over the good ones, and that sometimes they do not become so dangerously bad until enough people welcome them with open arms?

Perhaps this is the fundamental point of disagreement?
There are so many different things in the SC bucket that anyone who thinks that no caution is needed is not thinking very hard.

It is akin to saying "we have invented derivatives, yeah baby".  
It is a fintech innovation. Arguably a very good one, but people have different opinions on that.  It has also created risks that were not managed.
scBTC is similar in this way in that it necessarily increases the complexity risks systemically.
It may be worth while.  This will depend on the people and how the technologies are implemented and used, don't you think?

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November 03, 2014, 12:24:36 AM
 #15407

like i said above, user anonymity should be a widely sought after feature.  and your security argument is a logical fallacy in that it is perfectly reasonable to expect that faster tx times will be achieved in the future that doesn't effect network security, point being SC's coupled with that innovation will obsolete Bitcoin

If it is so then it will be implemented in the mainchain

why?  you already said consensus is impossible.  what migration % of BTC to scBTC will force the implementation?  give me a %.  and at what % would it be too late?
Quote

you should.  but how inconvenient, insecure, along with identity compromise from having to move all your BTC to a SC every few years.

As inconvenient, insecure as it was to move your fiat to BTC.

way more difficult. with fiat at least one has some guarantee and recourse.  digging out cold storage wallets to transfer to the SC is inconvenient, risky, and identity revealing.  how many times do i have to say this before it registers with you?
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Every few years? the scenario I'm proposing would need to be, in my mind, a paradigm shift of the order of fiat money/Bitcoin. I wouldn't bet on such innovation pace because as I have said previously, Bitcoin is close to as good as it gets as is.

sigh.  then why go thru all the risk and trouble if SC's aren't going to significantly push Bitcoin forward?
Quote
if a SC employs sidecoins/altcoins, the risk for Bitcoin is even greater than that of a simple SC alone just paying fees.  miners who defect would now be getting paid not only tx fees but also block rewards on a SC that everybody has migrated to b/c of the innovation.

That's not what I'm saying. My point is the sidecoin scenario is no different than any altcoin ie. the sidechains does not enable them in any significant way.

 Roll Eyes it's totally different b/c the MM helps bootstrap any SC, with or w/o altcoin.
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November 03, 2014, 12:35:55 AM
 #15408

why?  you already said consensus is impossible.  what migration % of BTC to scBTC will force the implementation?  give me a %.  and at what % would it be too late?

The consensus required for a total exodus to a sidechain is the same as a hard fork. Moreover, such an implementation will not necessarily require a hard fork.

sigh.  then why go thru all the risk and trouble if SC's aren't going to significantly push Bitcoin forward?

They can push Bitcoin forward by enabling features that are not natively available through sidechains that work in synergy with the main one

Roll Eyes it's totally different b/c the MM helps bootstrap any SC, with or w/o altcoin.

Any altcoin is able, at this very moment, to be MM with BTC

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 03, 2014, 12:38:27 AM
 #15409



and these 1 Billion SC's will move all tx's off the MC making mining failure almost guaranteed.

how can you say that with such certainty.
Why mine a coin if it has no reward. What makes this certain is the belief that miners are motivated to spend real industrial energy for profit.

The only counter argument is miners will MM because it costs no energy.

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November 03, 2014, 12:39:07 AM
 #15410

way more difficult. with fiat at least one has some guarantee and recourse.  digging out cold storage wallets to transfer to the SC is inconvenient, risky, and identity revealing.  how many times do i have to say this before it registers with you?

And this is exactly why it will be more convenient for the community to agree to fork the main chain with a feature that has been proven successful on a sidechain than incite a mass exodus.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 03, 2014, 12:54:24 AM
 #15411

Any altcoin is able, at this very moment, to be MM with BTC
Any?
Like LTC?

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November 03, 2014, 12:58:30 AM
 #15412

way more difficult. with fiat at least one has some guarantee and recourse.  digging out cold storage wallets to transfer to the SC is inconvenient, risky, and identity revealing.  how many times do i have to say this before it registers with you?

And this is exactly why it will be more convenient for the community to agree to fork the main chain with a feature that has been proven successful on a sidechain than incite a mass exodus.

Brg444 I don't think you have any skin in this game. I suggests you find someone to lend you a $100K and put your money where your mouth is, buy some Bitcoin it's cheep if you're correct and it's only going up.

I've been buying every dip untill the release of this paper my support has switched I'm now a net seller and will be untill there is more clarity. I don't trade on the biggest exchanges but I can tell you it's going down it's not often I see an effect like this. Your support if you can find credit will holed the price for a minute but it will help restore confidence.

The gross lack of judgment says to me many Bitcoin proponents have sold out and are thinking this is a trigger. Well it's not. They sold out just in time and are now killing Bitcoin. My economic energy has enabled the wrong people the greedy.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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November 03, 2014, 01:00:56 AM
 #15413

way more difficult. with fiat at least one has some guarantee and recourse.  digging out cold storage wallets to transfer to the SC is inconvenient, risky, and identity revealing.  how many times do i have to say this before it registers with you?

And this is exactly why it will be more convenient for the community to agree to fork the main chain with a feature that has been proven successful on a sidechain than incite a mass exodus.

Brg444 I don't think you have any skin in this game. I suggests you find someone to lend you a $100K and put your money where your mouth is, buy some Bitcoin it's cheep if you're correct and it's only going up.

I've been buying every dip untill the release of this paper my support has switched I'm now a net seller and will be untill there is more clarity. I don't trade on the biggest exchanges but I can tell you it's going down it's not often I see an effect like this. Your support if you can find credit will holed the price for a minute but it will help restore confidence.

The gross lack of judgment says to me many Bitcoin proponents have sold out and are thinking this is a trigger. Well it's not. They sold out just in time and are now killing Bitcoin. My economic energy has enabled the wrong people the greedy.


 Shocked

where is this coming from?

what would satisfy you? a SS of my wallet ?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 03, 2014, 01:13:05 AM
 #15414

way more difficult. with fiat at least one has some guarantee and recourse.  digging out cold storage wallets to transfer to the SC is inconvenient, risky, and identity revealing.  how many times do i have to say this before it registers with you?

And this is exactly why it will be more convenient for the community to agree to fork the main chain with a feature that has been proven successful on a sidechain than incite a mass exodus.

Brg444 I don't think you have any skin in this game. I suggests you find someone to lend you a $100K and put your money where your mouth is, buy some Bitcoin it's cheep if you're correct and it's only going up.

I've been buying every dip untill the release of this paper my support has switched I'm now a net seller and will be untill there is more clarity. I don't trade on the biggest exchanges but I can tell you it's going down it's not often I see an effect like this. Your support if you can find credit will holed the price for a minute but it will help restore confidence.

The gross lack of judgment says to me many Bitcoin proponents have sold out and are thinking this is a trigger. Well it's not. They sold out just in time and are now killing Bitcoin. My economic energy has enabled the wrong people the greedy.


 Shocked

where is this coming from?

what would satisfy you? a SS of my wallet ?

No just you having some skin in the game. Just make a big bet your attitude will change blabbing along when you think you know everything changes when you have something at stake.

I'm not trying to create a win lose proposition. Bitcoin is win win, my economic energy has been growing this idea, I've put a lot of savings on the blockchain knowing the only exit is price.

This changes everything that value can now be extracted leaving me with worthless private keys. No thanks.

Let's see you turn this around I'm selling are you buying?

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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November 03, 2014, 01:14:03 AM
 #15415

way more difficult. with fiat at least one has some guarantee and recourse.  digging out cold storage wallets to transfer to the SC is inconvenient, risky, and identity revealing.  how many times do i have to say this before it registers with you?

And this is exactly why it will be more convenient for the community to agree to fork the main chain with a feature that has been proven successful on a sidechain than incite a mass exodus.

what %migration to scBTC would elicit the MC devs to fork in the innovation?
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November 03, 2014, 01:16:18 AM
 #15416

why?  you already said consensus is impossible.  what migration % of BTC to scBTC will force the implementation?  give me a %.  and at what % would it be too late?

The consensus required for a total exodus to a sidechain is the same as a hard fork. Moreover, such an implementation will not necessarily require a hard fork.

sigh.  then why go thru all the risk and trouble if SC's aren't going to significantly push Bitcoin forward?

They can push Bitcoin forward by enabling features that are not natively available through sidechains that work in synergy with the main one

not worth the risk given the potential for SC to destroy the MC
Quote
Roll Eyes it's totally different b/c the MM helps bootstrap any SC, with or w/o altcoin.

Any altcoin is able, at this very moment, to be MM with BTC

and yet they're not. but you want to create SC's with altcoins which will enable this on a widespread basis?
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November 03, 2014, 01:21:02 AM
 #15417

why?  you already said consensus is impossible.  what migration % of BTC to scBTC will force the implementation?  give me a %.  and at what % would it be too late?

The consensus required for a total exodus to a sidechain is the same as a hard fork. Moreover, such an implementation will not necessarily require a hard fork.

sigh.  then why go thru all the risk and trouble if SC's aren't going to significantly push Bitcoin forward?

They can push Bitcoin forward by enabling features that are not natively available through sidechains that work in synergy with the main one

not worth the risk given the potential for SC to destroy the MC
Quote
Roll Eyes it's totally different b/c the MM helps bootstrap any SC, with or w/o altcoin.

Any altcoin is able, at this very moment, to be MM with BTC

and yet they're not. but you want to create SC's with altcoins which will enable this on a widespread basis?

Enable this?

Miners decide on whether they merge mine or not. It is not because the model to secure sidechains is merged-mining that subsequently ALL sidechains will be picked up by the miners. They will decide to mine those that are worth their time, exactly like with alts.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 03, 2014, 01:22:38 AM
 #15418

No just you having some skin in the game. Just make a big bet your attitude will change blabbing along when you think you know everything changes when you have something at stake.

I'm not trying to create a win lose proposition. Bitcoin is win win, my economic energy has been growing this idea, I've put a lot of savings on the blockchain knowing the only exit is price.

This changes everything that value can now be extracted leaving me with worthless private keys. No thanks.

Let's see you turn this around I'm selling are you buying?

I'm buying every time I have a penny loose my friend.

It is tragic that a gross misunderstanding would have you sell your Bitcoins.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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November 03, 2014, 01:24:08 AM
 #15419

way more difficult. with fiat at least one has some guarantee and recourse.  digging out cold storage wallets to transfer to the SC is inconvenient, risky, and identity revealing.  how many times do i have to say this before it registers with you?

And this is exactly why it will be more convenient for the community to agree to fork the main chain with a feature that has been proven successful on a sidechain than incite a mass exodus.

Brg444 I don't think you have any skin in this game. I suggests you find someone to lend you a $100K and put your money where your mouth is, buy some Bitcoin it's cheep if you're correct and it's only going up.

I've been buying every dip untill the release of this paper my support has switched I'm now a net seller and will be untill there is more clarity. I don't trade on the biggest exchanges but I can tell you it's going down it's not often I see an effect like this. Your support if you can find credit will holed the price for a minute but it will help restore confidence.

The gross lack of judgment says to me many Bitcoin proponents have sold out and are thinking this is a trigger. Well it's not. They sold out just in time and are now killing Bitcoin. My economic energy has enabled the wrong people the greedy.


 Shocked

where is this coming from?

what would satisfy you? a SS of my wallet ?

No just you having some skin in the game. Just make a big bet your attitude will change blabbing along when you think you know everything changes when you have something at stake.

I'm not trying to create a win lose proposition. Bitcoin is win win, my economic energy has been growing this idea, I've put a lot of savings on the blockchain knowing the only exit is price.

This changes everything that value can now be extracted leaving me with worthless private keys. No thanks.

Let's see you turn this around I'm selling are you buying?

sorry to hear you're selling but i have to agree with you:

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November 03, 2014, 01:26:08 AM
 #15420

soo...who is buying gold silver? I simply can't look away from these attractive prices  Cool
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