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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1977797 times)
n2004al
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August 15, 2015, 02:39:11 AM
 #30521

Every intimation that put gold in front of bitcoin is a pure speculation. Are separate entities that have totally different duties. It is enough to tell that gold is not currencies (and never will be) and that bitcoin is currency (even not full as such by some) and maybe will be a reserve toll. Being totally different make them incomparable. So put in one thread both of them with the intent to compare those with each other is not correct in my point of view.
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August 15, 2015, 02:45:21 AM
 #30522

Every intimation that put gold in front of bitcoin is a pure speculation. Are separate entities that have totally different duties. It is enough to tell that gold is not currencies (and never will be) and that bitcoin is currency (even not full as such by some) and maybe will be a reserve toll. Being totally different make them incomparable. So put in one thread both of them with the intent to compare those with each other is not correct in my point of view.

Bitcoin picked up gold's duty which it could never successfully fulfill anyway.

You haven't been paying any attention if you actually attempt to step into this thread and claim with any credibility that gold and Bitcoin are totally different?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 15, 2015, 02:50:10 AM
 #30523

Not at all. It's not hard to understand really..

The thing holding other crypto back is the amount of capital people are willing to trust to them. Not necessarily the amount of users. The increasing ecosystem size is a result of capital, speculative or not, being stored into Bitcoin. As far as the nature of the speculation this is beside the point which is that Bitcoin is not used, as we speak, as a medium of exchange to purchase goods or services.

People are not buying Bitcoin because the number of transactions or users is seemingly increasing. They are buying because it attracts wealth unlike what most other coins can claim.

I've stated this repeatedly but I honestly believe it to be true: we are talking about a money protocol, a money network effect. the unit concerned is not number of users but amount of capital.

Think of it like this : if the 1% of the world's population who apparently controls around 40% of the world's wealth moved that money into Bitcoin it would do more to strengthen & grow the ecosystem than if 25% of the other people on earth invested all of their savings.

Capital flowing into Bitcoin is absolutely about expected future growth, in users, transactions, market cap, and in usefulness. Hard for me to comprehend how you can even divorce these metrics.

Remaining the domain of 10,000 geeks sitting on hordes of coins in paper wallets, occasionally trading some back and forth with each other... means failure to me. Not that it would fail to work, but that it would fail to reach its potential.  

This is not to say that user/transaction growth is some kind of panacea to be pursued at all costs, just that it shouldn't be ignored.  

Yes. And much like the others your mischaracterize the only growth we are really concerned about : market cap, or how much of the fiat economy we have absorbed. As I've said previously I couldn't care less if it comes from the pockets of the 1% or the 99%. More fiat capital trusting Bitcoin as money is exactly how it grows until it consumes all of wealth in the world.

Users, transactions are secondary. They will follow the money because like any thing worth a lot in this world people will want a piece of it. Velocity of transactions will pickup once an actual Bitcoin economy develops. Meanwhile people will hoard Bitcoin and get rid of fiat. Some might not agree but this is pretty much Gresham's law in action.

While you may not consider them "panacea to be pursued at all costs", others have outright stated this is the ONLY goal to be pursuing and that it should be done as quickly as possible. They would like to run Bitcoin like a startup. This is IMO the wrong way to go about it.

You say I mischaracterize the importance of market cap growth, I say I simply try to describe some of the forces behind market cap. Do you see a scenario where market cap goes up while the number of users, transactions, applications, and merchants... goes down?

I did not say anything about your characterization of market cap but of growth. Or more precisely, the driver of growth.

No I don't see a scenario where that happens. What I am observing though is market cap going up and users, transactions and merchants following.

So AAPL's market cap growth is a feedback loop in which it ultimately consumes the entirety of global wealth... before bitcoin! Yikes!

 Roll Eyes

Is AAPL competing with fiat as money?

Sorry but that's such a stupid thing to say. I'm sure you can do better than this...

Let me ask you. Did the current 1B$ ecosystem investment, equivalent billion dollar mining infrastructure, incremental userbase and increasing transactions come about before or after the price increase? You wouldn't argue the other way around would you?
Just so you know brg444 the market cap is not a valid metric, its a shortcut to understanding the value stored in bitcoin, its not a leading metric but a wagging tail, here oda.krell illustrates the point nicely. unfortunately the real insight was only intended for those who pay attention it's been deleted on porous :-( .

While that is a perfectly valid observation. Market cap is at least the most precise indicator of historic growth in the value of network we have at hand.

Not users, not nodes, not transactions.

your 66% wrong but I'm unwilling to prove it and so are all the other hoarders, but to help you understand, if Satoshy had to sell 20% of his bitcoin holdings, that's roughly 1% of the market cap (an estimates 1,000,000 BTC belonging to Satoshi) the total market cap would drop from about $3.8Bto a generous guesstimate of $140M at around $10 per BTC.

So as you can see selling 1% of Bitcoin has a distorting ability to reduce the market cap by a whopping 96.23% (and this is the metric you feel is the most accurate metric to measure bitcoin's value and growth?)

So in other words if Satoshi tried to liquidate 20% of his holdings he would reduce the value of the remaining 80% by about 99.62%. the reason big holders are holding is because of game theory, market cap is not the metric invested interests are watching, its a mirage.  

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August 15, 2015, 02:59:36 AM
 #30524

Roll Eyes

Is AAPL competing with fiat as money?

Sorry but that's such a stupid thing to say. I'm sure you can do better than this...

Let me ask you. Did the current 1B$ ecosystem investment, equivalent billion dollar mining infrastructure, incremental userbase and increasing transactions come before or after the price increase?

Of course I'm being silly and hyperbolic, but only to illustrate that market cap isn't some "build it and they will come" metric.

There is a feedback loop between price and user growth, but it can only be sustained with growing utility.

"Yikes"

You still don't get it.

Stop thinking in terms of users. Think in terms of capital. This is not Facebook.

market cap isn't some "build it and they will come" metric.

On the contrary, when it comes to money (or networks for that matter) it seemingly works this way.

Let me borrow from the Facebook example again : create a huge network of people and they will come.

Create a huge network of money and you will attract wealth.

Look I'm not neglecting the positive added effect of these other feedback loops you are referring too. Merely downplaying their importance for the time being as some people have seemingly lost their eyes from the prize.

"When the wise man points at the moon, the fool looks at the finger."

I'm not sure where your cumming from 444, but reading your comments elsewhere you seem to be bullish on bitcoin but reading your contributions here you seem oblivious to where that value comes from.

there is a nice correlation to Metacafe Law when it comes to Bitcoins value, its the best we have.

I dont think your humble enough to learn, and you defiantly overconfident enough in your ignorance to depart any wisdom.

Is that so? I do remember Raystonn used to project the value of the network using Unique Addresses^2. Peter R had his own transactions version. That seemed like it could work back in 2014. In both cases I believe we've seen at least 100% increases while the market cap has not quite followed.

I'm curious what both charts would look right about now but I'm afraid it would invalidate both theories. The reason might be that no one knows exactly how to quantify the amount of users in the network.

there is a lot of standard deviation but I dont think it is outside of the mean, If i was to give it my humble 0.02BTC guess, i think Blockstream have done bitcoin a big favor by threatening to introduce Sidechains, it adds a lot of uncertainty to the projected success of bitcoin, that's given many investors an opportunity to buy in during this downturn and forced large holders let coins go.

I for one believe the depressed growth in price is largely influenced by the risk of bitcoin failure, and i suspect we'll see a lot of action when we get new information and certainty on Block size.

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August 15, 2015, 03:07:19 AM
 #30525

Not at all. It's not hard to understand really..

The thing holding other crypto back is the amount of capital people are willing to trust to them. Not necessarily the amount of users. The increasing ecosystem size is a result of capital, speculative or not, being stored into Bitcoin. As far as the nature of the speculation this is beside the point which is that Bitcoin is not used, as we speak, as a medium of exchange to purchase goods or services.

People are not buying Bitcoin because the number of transactions or users is seemingly increasing. They are buying because it attracts wealth unlike what most other coins can claim.

I've stated this repeatedly but I honestly believe it to be true: we are talking about a money protocol, a money network effect. the unit concerned is not number of users but amount of capital.

Think of it like this : if the 1% of the world's population who apparently controls around 40% of the world's wealth moved that money into Bitcoin it would do more to strengthen & grow the ecosystem than if 25% of the other people on earth invested all of their savings.

Capital flowing into Bitcoin is absolutely about expected future growth, in users, transactions, market cap, and in usefulness. Hard for me to comprehend how you can even divorce these metrics.

Remaining the domain of 10,000 geeks sitting on hordes of coins in paper wallets, occasionally trading some back and forth with each other... means failure to me. Not that it would fail to work, but that it would fail to reach its potential.  

This is not to say that user/transaction growth is some kind of panacea to be pursued at all costs, just that it shouldn't be ignored.  

Yes. And much like the others your mischaracterize the only growth we are really concerned about : market cap, or how much of the fiat economy we have absorbed. As I've said previously I couldn't care less if it comes from the pockets of the 1% or the 99%. More fiat capital trusting Bitcoin as money is exactly how it grows until it consumes all of wealth in the world.

Users, transactions are secondary. They will follow the money because like any thing worth a lot in this world people will want a piece of it. Velocity of transactions will pickup once an actual Bitcoin economy develops. Meanwhile people will hoard Bitcoin and get rid of fiat. Some might not agree but this is pretty much Gresham's law in action.

While you may not consider them "panacea to be pursued at all costs", others have outright stated this is the ONLY goal to be pursuing and that it should be done as quickly as possible. They would like to run Bitcoin like a startup. This is IMO the wrong way to go about it.

You say I mischaracterize the importance of market cap growth, I say I simply try to describe some of the forces behind market cap. Do you see a scenario where market cap goes up while the number of users, transactions, applications, and merchants... goes down?

I did not say anything about your characterization of market cap but of growth. Or more precisely, the driver of growth.

No I don't see a scenario where that happens. What I am observing though is market cap going up and users, transactions and merchants following.

So AAPL's market cap growth is a feedback loop in which it ultimately consumes the entirety of global wealth... before bitcoin! Yikes!

 Roll Eyes

Is AAPL competing with fiat as money?

Sorry but that's such a stupid thing to say. I'm sure you can do better than this...

Let me ask you. Did the current 1B$ ecosystem investment, equivalent billion dollar mining infrastructure, incremental userbase and increasing transactions come about before or after the price increase? You wouldn't argue the other way around would you?
Just so you know brg444 the market cap is not a valid metric, its a shortcut to understanding the value stored in bitcoin, its not a leading metric but a wagging tail, here oda.krell illustrates the point nicely. unfortunately the real insight was only intended for those who pay attention it's been deleted on porous :-( .

While that is a perfectly valid observation. Market cap is at least the most precise indicator of historic growth in the value of network we have at hand.

Not users, not nodes, not transactions.

your 66% wrong but I'm unwilling to prove it and so are all the other hoarders, but to help you understand, if Satoshy had to sell 20% of his bitcoin holdings, that's roughly 1% of the market cap (an estimates 1,000,000 BTC belonging to Satoshi) the total market cap would drop from about $3.8Bto a generous guesstimate of $140M at around $10 per BTC.

So as you can see selling 1% of Bitcoin has a distorting ability to reduce the market cap by a whopping 96.23% (and this is the metric you feel is the most accurate metric to measure bitcoin's value and growth?)

So in other words if Satoshi tried to liquidate 20% of his holdings he would reduce the value of the remaining 80% by about 99.62%. the reason big holders are holding is because of game theory, market cap is not the metric invested interests are watching, its a mirage.  

For how long?

From what I understand the issue you are describing is a lack of liquidity in the market and poor information on actual trades. With time this supply will be absorbed by the market until equilibrium is reached again.

I do appreciate the point you are making and it is true that as it stands the price signal is not necessarily clear enough to make it a valid indicator of the network value. Price discovery still?

I'm not sure why your strokethrough "nodes" though. I don't see any way you could suggest they are somewhat an indicator of network growth...

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 15, 2015, 03:16:03 AM
 #30526

...Peter R had his own transactions version. That seemed like it could work back in 2014. In both cases I believe we've seen at least 100% increases while the market cap has not quite followed.

I'm curious what both charts would look right about now but I'm afraid it would invalidate both theories. The reason might be that no one knows exactly how to quantify the amount of users in the network.

Sure.



 Wink

Brg444, what do you think of my last response to your comment about moving the block size limit out of the consensus layer?

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August 15, 2015, 03:19:16 AM
 #30527

...Peter R had his own transactions version. That seemed like it could work back in 2014. In both cases I believe we've seen at least 100% increases while the market cap has not quite followed.

I'm curious what both charts would look right about now but I'm afraid it would invalidate both theories. The reason might be that no one knows exactly how to quantify the amount of users in the network.

Sure.



 Wink

Brg444, what do you think of my last response to your comment about moving the block size limit out of the consensus layer?

It is an interesting idea but I'm still thinking it through. Should get you a reply by this weekend.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 15, 2015, 03:54:20 AM
 #30528

...Peter R had his own transactions version. That seemed like it could work back in 2014. In both cases I believe we've seen at least 100% increases while the market cap has not quite followed.

I'm curious what both charts would look right about now but I'm afraid it would invalidate both theories. The reason might be that no one knows exactly how to quantify the amount of users in the network.

Sure.



 Wink

Brg444, what do you think of my last response to your comment about moving the block size limit out of the consensus layer?

It is an interesting idea but I'm still thinking it through. Should get you a reply by this weekend.

As a quick thought: I'm worried about centralization issue. (yes :/)

First thought is what you are proposing could effectively creates an arm race in mining and node connectivity which will most likely prove to be out of reach of regular users.

Possibly centralizing these nodes farms & miners geographically because of internet politics.


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 15, 2015, 05:48:08 AM
 #30529

...Peter R had his own transactions version. That seemed like it could work back in 2014. In both cases I believe we've seen at least 100% increases while the market cap has not quite followed.

I'm curious what both charts would look right about now but I'm afraid it would invalidate both theories. The reason might be that no one knows exactly how to quantify the amount of users in the network.

Sure.



 Wink


You are a master at decorating a plot with arbitrary fluff as though it means something.  I still LOL at the color one you did and how you 'updated' it.  It still blows my mind that there were so many mouth-breathers panicing because 'we are so close to the red'.

In this plot, the trends are mildly non-linear _against_ the point you are trying (probably successfully) to make.  And there was no particular block size pressure at the arbitrary point where you choose to point the arrow.

Let me propose a different read.  I currently own way more BTC than I would buy if I were taking a position at this point in time.  They are left over from when the price was lower and there is a fair amount of risk and cost in balancing so I sit tight.  If I needed a place to sink a windfall in cash, it would certainly be favorably distributed toward PM's and that is much more the case because you guys are trying to destroy Bitcoin in the way that it is valuable to me.  Unclear if you will succeed, but it's a very large risk point.  Anyway, I'll bet that there are many many other people in my situation.  We can expect the trend to continue until a balance between Bitcoin's fairly high inflation rate and the desire to hodl Bitcoin match.  Of course all manner of factors can shift the 'propensity to hodl' so it is not going to be some sort of stable point for a long long time and maybe never.

If you Bloatchainers were designing aircraft, the 747 would have 1/2 inch cable attached directly from the pilot's yoke to the elevator just like the ultralight were such a thing works quite well.  The idea of a trim-tab would never have been thought of.  Nor would the aircraft be able to be controlled.  I think that about the only bloatcoiner smart enough to see this clearly is Mike Hearn, and that is exactly why he has put in the effort to make XT.  Classic controlled demolition.


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August 15, 2015, 06:19:51 AM
 #30530

...Peter R had his own transactions version. That seemed like it could work back in 2014. In both cases I believe we've seen at least 100% increases while the market cap has not quite followed.

I'm curious what both charts would look right about now but I'm afraid it would invalidate both theories. The reason might be that no one knows exactly how to quantify the amount of users in the network.

Sure.



 Wink


You are a master at decorating a plot with arbitrary fluff as though it means something.  I still LOL at the color one you did and how you 'updated' it.  It still blows my mind that there were so many mouth-breathers panicing because 'we are so close to the red'.

In this plot, the trends are mildly non-linear _against_ the point you are trying (probably successfully) to make.  And there was no particular block size pressure at the arbitrary point where you choose to point the arrow.

Let me propose a different read.  I currently own way more BTC than I would buy if I were taking a position at this point in time.  They are left over from when the price was lower and there is a fair amount of risk and cost in balancing so I sit tight.  If I needed a place to sink a windfall in cash, it would certainly be favorably distributed toward PM's and that is much more the case because you guys are trying to destroy Bitcoin in the way that it is valuable to me.  Unclear if you will succeed, but it's a very large risk point.  Anyway, I'll bet that there are many many other people in my situation.  We can expect the trend to continue until a balance between Bitcoin's fairly high inflation rate and the desire to hodl Bitcoin match.  Of course all manner of factors can shift the 'propensity to hodl' so it is not going to be some sort of stable point for a long long time and maybe never.

If you Bloatchainers were designing aircraft, the 747 would have 1/2 inch cable attached directly from the pilot's yoke to the elevator just like the ultralight were such a thing works quite well.  The idea of a trim-tab would never have been thought of.  Nor would the aircraft be able to be controlled.  I think that about the only bloatcoiner smart enough to see this clearly is Mike Hearn, and that is exactly why he has put in the effort to make XT.  Classic controlled demolition.



Sounds like a bearish bitcoin post.

Am I right?

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August 15, 2015, 06:34:03 AM
 #30531


Sounds like a bearish bitcoin post.

Am I right?

Not exactly.  I'd still buy BTC if I had none, but I'd buy more gold.  This ratio is 'bearish' for Bitcoin very much because of the futility and destructive potential of trying to make it scale via stone-ax methods and the traction that idea seems to have here in Tardville.

I would add that I could see making gob-smacks of money in the (likely) eventuality that Google-class operators decide to adopt it and make it into Paypal-II (rather than just kill it off.)  That certainly could happen and the world is full of idiots so it just might fly pretty high.  They supporting it is probably the best bet to keep more dangerous related technologies from getting a foot-hold.  That doesn't make me 'bullish' really though I won't turn down the offer to capitalize handsomely should the opportunity present itself.


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August 15, 2015, 06:45:45 AM
 #30532

the only bloatcoiner smart enough to see this clearly is Mike Hearn, and that is exactly why he has put in the effort to make XT.  Classic controlled demolition.

Excellent (and blessedly succinct) argument by analogy.  "Hostile/malicious fork" descriptive power just doesn't have the same je ne sais quoi as "controlled demolition."

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
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Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


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Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

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August 15, 2015, 07:12:02 AM
 #30533

the only bloatcoiner smart enough to see this clearly is Mike Hearn, and that is exactly why he has put in the effort to make XT.  Classic controlled demolition.

Excellent (and blessedly succinct) argument by analogy.  "Hostile/malicious fork" descriptive power just doesn't have the same je ne sais quoi as "controlled demolition."

Does not convince many. Not here and not there.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1144606.60
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August 15, 2015, 07:20:57 AM
 #30534

the only bloatcoiner smart enough to see this clearly is Mike Hearn, and that is exactly why he has put in the effort to make XT.  Classic controlled demolition.

Excellent (and blessedly succinct) argument by analogy.  "Hostile/malicious fork" descriptive power just doesn't have the same je ne sais quoi as "controlled demolition."

Does not convince many. Not here and not there.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1144606.60

Bitcoin is explicitly non-democratic.  Populism has no power here.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
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August 15, 2015, 07:30:51 AM
 #30535

the only bloatcoiner smart enough to see this clearly is Mike Hearn, and that is exactly why he has put in the effort to make XT.  Classic controlled demolition.

Excellent (and blessedly succinct) argument by analogy.  "Hostile/malicious fork" descriptive power just doesn't have the same je ne sais quoi as "controlled demolition."

Does not convince many. Not here and not there.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1144606.60

Bitcoin is explicitly non-democratic.  Populism has no power here.

Yes, the populism of the 1MBers has no power, neither in the threads of the elite nor anywhere else. That's why the limit will be raised within the next 12 month.
iCEBREAKER
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August 15, 2015, 08:52:24 AM
 #30536

the only bloatcoiner smart enough to see this clearly is Mike Hearn, and that is exactly why he has put in the effort to make XT.  Classic controlled demolition.

Excellent (and blessedly succinct) argument by analogy.  "Hostile/malicious fork" descriptive power just doesn't have the same je ne sais quoi as "controlled demolition."

Does not convince many. Not here and not there.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1144606.60

Bitcoin is explicitly non-democratic.  Populism has no power here.

Yes, the populism of the 1MBers has no power, neither in the threads of the elite nor anywhere else. That's why the limit will be raised within the next 12 month.

The "populism of the 1MBers" is not your concern.

Your concern is the multi-year duration and multi-billion-dollar magnitude of Bitcoin's current economic majority.

Are you going to be the first brave fellow to defect from that imposing majority by accepting Gavin-tainted XTcoins?  No?  Then you are just a poser.

In the remote possiblity XT becomes a matter of more importance than the hype, mirth, and scorn it generates at present, MPex and other 1MBer Elder Whales are prepared to use substantial (possibly exhaustive) portions of their extraordinarily massive war chests to repel 8MBer attacks.  To them, this is Holy War, with barbarian Gavinista hordes clamouring for a Free Shit Junta at the gates of their bespoke civilization.  They are more of a mood to impale heads atop spikes than reward with compromise Hearn's attacks on decentralization, Tor, and the consensus process.

Are you still sure you want to risk your tiny stash playing Hard Fork Poker with such ultra-high-rollers?

Before you answer, please take into account that nodes by default prioritize tx moving older coins, and the Royalty of La Serenissima possesses, in great quantities, very old coins.

What will you do when the limit isn't raised within the next 12 months?  Continue to cry wolf?  Self harm? Or admit being wrong?   Wink

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
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August 15, 2015, 08:53:12 AM
 #30537

the only bloatcoiner smart enough to see this clearly is Mike Hearn, and that is exactly why he has put in the effort to make XT.  Classic controlled demolition.

Excellent (and blessedly succinct) argument by analogy.  "Hostile/malicious fork" descriptive power just doesn't have the same je ne sais quoi as "controlled demolition."

Does not convince many. Not here and not there.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1144606.60

Bitcoin is explicitly non-democratic.  Populism has no power here.

I would argue! Bitcoin is extremely democratic by its nature
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August 15, 2015, 09:02:28 AM
 #30538

the only bloatcoiner smart enough to see this clearly is Mike Hearn, and that is exactly why he has put in the effort to make XT.  Classic controlled demolition.

Excellent (and blessedly succinct) argument by analogy.  "Hostile/malicious fork" descriptive power just doesn't have the same je ne sais quoi as "controlled demolition."

Does not convince many. Not here and not there.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1144606.60

Bitcoin is explicitly non-democratic.  Populism has no power here.

I would argue! Bitcoin is extremely democratic by its nature

True.  Very few people choose to participate as a percentage of the world's population.  In otherwords, they freely vote with their feet.  For some reason all of the Bloatcoin nitwits think that is going to change after half a decade and jubilation is just around the corner.

Bitcoin has the potential to be very useful for certain things and under certain circumstances.  Indeed, as a backing store for various tuned crypto-currency solutions (aka, sidechains) it would not take anything catastrophic in mainstream-land to create such conditions.  The Bloatcoin guy's tasks are to nuke Bitcoin before or during such a time of need.


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August 15, 2015, 09:30:44 AM
 #30539

...Peter R had his own transactions version. That seemed like it could work back in 2014. In both cases I believe we've seen at least 100% increases while the market cap has not quite followed.

I'm curious what both charts would look right about now but I'm afraid it would invalidate both theories. The reason might be that no one knows exactly how to quantify the amount of users in the network.

Sure.



 Wink


You are a master at decorating a plot with arbitrary fluff as though it means something. 
...
In this plot, the trends are mildly non-linear _against_ the point you are trying (probably successfully) to make.  And there was no particular block size pressure at the arbitrary point where you choose to point the arrow.

Oh come on Tvbcof.  The winky face means that I'm admittedly pushing it with what I wrote in red on that plot.  It was designed to tease Brg444 and I don't necessarily believe it myself.

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
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August 15, 2015, 09:37:32 AM
 #30540

...Peter R had his own transactions version. That seemed like it could work back in 2014. In both cases I believe we've seen at least 100% increases while the market cap has not quite followed.

I'm curious what both charts would look right about now but I'm afraid it would invalidate both theories. The reason might be that no one knows exactly how to quantify the amount of users in the network.

Sure.



 Wink


You are a master at decorating a plot with arbitrary fluff as though it means something. 
...
In this plot, the trends are mildly non-linear _against_ the point you are trying (probably successfully) to make.  And there was no particular block size pressure at the arbitrary point where you choose to point the arrow.

Oh come on Tvbcof.  The winky face means that I'm admittedly pushing it with what I wrote in red on that plot.  It was designed to tease Brg444 and I don't necessarily believe it myself.

What do you believe. Sorry to derail a bit but the apparent unlinking itself is reasonably interesting.
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