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Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1804349 times)
Zarathustra
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August 18, 2015, 02:31:32 PM
 #31161

My topic was also moved to the Meta section:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1155952.msg12173342#msg12173342

Incredible.

My block size speculaction poll still in the Speculation section:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1154751.0

Incredible ...

"Staat nenne ich's, wo alle Gifttrinker sind, Gute und Schlimme: Staat, wo alle sich selber verlieren, Gute und Schlimme:
Staat, wo der langsame Selbstmord aller – »das Leben« heisst."
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August 18, 2015, 02:32:55 PM
 #31162

yep, they're trying to hide this thread.

i posted a new topic thread back over at Speculation just now simply saying the thread was moved with a link here, and it was deleted instantly.

normally when threads get moved, there is a courtesy link left behind informing everyone of that fact so they can follow the move.  no traces of anything like that this time.
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August 18, 2015, 02:35:01 PM
 #31163

yep, they're trying to hide this thread.

What part of more traffic in the Alt section is not clear?

In other news, Monero is now on topic here. Smiley
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August 18, 2015, 02:41:25 PM
 #31164

Still holding bitcoin for the current and the future Smiley

.BitDice.               ▄▄███▄▄
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[/]
cypherdoc
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August 18, 2015, 02:41:56 PM
 #31165

My condolences cypher, this time [nearly] genuine.  

  ~Crumbs

Do not pity him, he is a convicted spammer and also probably a scammer, just look at his trust rate!

lol, nothing further from the truth.

the case is going nowhere.  and even if it does move forward, i fully expect to prevail.
awemany
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August 18, 2015, 02:44:15 PM
 #31166

Maybe this is a little paranoid, but the next step in escalation would be trying to destroy the pro-XT user community by kicking off all unwanted users from here or somehow getting them banned on reddit (I don't know what reddit is possible in this direction under reddit rules). This is why I posted a GPG key to https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoin_uncensored/comments/3hamve/collect_and_publish_digital_identities_of_users/. Is someone collecting digital identities somewhere?

On another note, Peter R., did you have a look at my PMs on reddit?
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August 18, 2015, 03:08:28 PM
 #31167

was terrible for me a trader bitcoin. whether with the  bitcoin XT crypto currency will make the world will get better?

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August 18, 2015, 03:11:50 PM
 #31168

Can someone please tell me what the problem is with this Bitcoin XT?

Is it a social engineering attack on the Bitcoin network?

0x8d1b4e41652eacec5715dc5c4833f6b713573de6 If you agree with me, please support a friend of mine in need.
knight22
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August 18, 2015, 03:21:02 PM
 #31169

Can someone please tell me what the problem is with this Bitcoin XT?

Is it a social engineering attack on the Bitcoin network?

See here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1155498.0

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August 18, 2015, 03:27:17 PM
 #31170

I do think the founders of Blockstream (mostly gmaxwell and adam3us; the perspectives of the others are somewhat less apparent) have (and, importantly, had; see next paragraph) a different vision for how Bitcoin is supposed to work. Different, that is, from most of the community and also from satoshi's public writings (including the white paper).

You already know adam3us's HashCash is One of the Eight Blessed References in Satoshi's Holy Whitepaper.

LOL, let's tell Dr. Backamoto all about "how Bitcoin is supposed to work."

He needs "most of the community" too halp hem lern dat maor gud.   Cheesy

Seriously though, all of this blather about "the community" is starting to sound a little too 'Occupy' for my liking.

Talking about Bitcoin does not make you part of it.

What's next, bloviating about 'stakeholders?'   Roll Eyes

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
Mengerian
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August 18, 2015, 03:28:31 PM
 #31171

Peter R / awemany,

The user-configurable software blocksize limit proposal got me thinking a bit about what features would be best for a full node implementation.

I like to think about individual incentives, what individual actors in a system may be motivated to do, then after extrapolate out to see how these choices would affect the whole system. In fact, the realization that Bitcoin could work in an environment where all the participants follow their individual incentives was what interested me in it in the first place.

So what do I, individually, want in a full node implementation? I am not a miner. I run a full node (on my crappy 6-year-old laptop) because I want to be able to monitor transactions on the Bitcoin network and make sure they are valid. So to be able to best do this, the software should:
1) Keep track of the longest proof-of-work blockchain
2) monitor other branching proof-of-work chains and let me know about them
3) detect what what consensus rules are being followed in any branching proof-of-work chains.

Software that does this would allow an individual to make informed decisions about what transactions they are willing to accept, and help them mitigate the risk of falling out of consensus. It could also possibly enable more sophisticated actions such as speculating between competing blockchain forks.

So if everyone else also followed this behaviour, what would happen? It seems to me that the overall system would end up being more robust, with less risk of accidental blockchain forks, and any forks that do occur resolving quickly to global consensus again.
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August 18, 2015, 03:35:54 PM
 #31172


Quote
So who is actually stupid enough to be the first to accept XTcoins?

I honestly don't know.  Not me, that's for sure.  I just run an XT node to be trendy and look cool.


Oh the butthurt of some users in this thread is strong.

 Cheesy

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
pa
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August 18, 2015, 03:37:32 PM
 #31173

Meni Rosenfeld on XT: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3h9cq4/its_time_for_a_break_about_the_recent_mess/cu6udfe
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August 18, 2015, 03:41:31 PM
 #31174

On another note, Peter R., did you have a look at my PMs on reddit?

Yes, sorry, I've been caught up by the strangeness of seeing this thread moved.  

I'll answer you question here:  I do not think we should promote this idea more aggressively until we improve its presentation and address some of the objections.  In particular:

1. Solex, Justus, and JorgeStolfi made a good point about the importance of a well-defined limit.  I think the graph I posted yesterday was wrong:



I think there will actually be a vertical line of about 60-80% of the hash power at exactly the same limit, with tails on either side.  The lower-limit tail will eventually get forked off.  If this is true, it would address the concern raised of an attacker publishing a block of just-the-right size to cause a (for example) 47/53 network split.  The reason we get the vertical line of "spontaneous consensus" is that everyone knows that unless that line exists, the network could be forked (game theory).

2. We need to make it clear that this is compatible with BIP101, and that we're not even suggesting that the entire network needs to adopt it.  In other words, we're sort of raising awareness that the limit can be set by the community rather than by the developers of a particular implementation of Bitcoin.  

Of course you are free to do as you wish, but I personally would not mail the proposal to the bitcoin-dev list at this time.  



c'mon Peter, you gotta give me some credit too:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg12167438#msg12167438
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August 18, 2015, 03:44:53 PM
 #31175


Mike Hearn is a board advisor at Circle


Well then, Circle is dead to me until they change that arrangement.  Back to Satoshi Square and Buttonwood.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
stoat
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August 18, 2015, 03:45:49 PM
 #31176

Can someone please tell me what the problem is with this Bitcoin XT?

Is it a social engineering attack on the Bitcoin network?

See here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1155498.0

How utterly unilluminating.  

Anyone answer my original question?

0x8d1b4e41652eacec5715dc5c4833f6b713573de6 If you agree with me, please support a friend of mine in need.
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August 18, 2015, 04:27:15 PM
 #31177

To further elaborate my thoughts:

The functions of a full node are to provide both monitoring and validation.

Monitoring the state of the network should be the first function of a node. In order to do this a node should a able to keep track of transactions and blocks that may follow differing consensus rules, and detect competing blockchain forks. In the case of block size, the software should keep track of any block regardless of size, subject to its technical ability.

Current software, both XT and Core, do not provide the greatest monitoring, since they only keep track of the longest blockchain that follows the one set of consensus rules they implement.

Validating transactions comes after monitoring, when the node operator can choose which transactions to accept, which to relay, and which proof of work blockchain is considered valid. Trying to stay in sync with network consensus will be of primary importance here.
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August 18, 2015, 04:30:52 PM
 #31178

I do think the founders of Blockstream (mostly gmaxwell and adam3us; the perspectives of the others are somewhat less apparent) have (and, importantly, had; see next paragraph) a different vision for how Bitcoin is supposed to work. Different, that is, from most of the community and also from satoshi's public writings (including the white paper).

You already know adam3us's HashCash is One of the Eight Blessed References in Satoshi's Holy Whitepaper.

Do the authors of all eight of those references, plus the whitepaper itself, agree on everything 100%?
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August 18, 2015, 04:39:06 PM
 #31179

I think cypher is counting all nodes not just the top 5.
the metric to watch is, 1 and 2 are they dropping?
1   /Satoshi:0.11.0/   2229 (36.30%)
2   /Satoshi:0.10.2/   1158 (18.86%)

actually, i don't think we should be looking at %'s.  why?  b/c don't forget that the Cripplecoiner's can spin up their own nodes too just to give the impression that their % share is holding.  i'm concentrating on the absolute #'s for XT nodes.  yes, i'm ignoring the pseudo-XT's for now b/c i think that was a stupid idea out of the box and doubt any of those guys are that dumb to do that. if XT nodes can get up to 3500-4500 or even less, to me, that would be a fantastic sign of adoption and future success of the XT chain as long as miner follow along, which they should.
Agree, I'm not invested in XT per se, it's all nodes that have the equivalent of BIP 101. It's the use of central control to mitigate the problems of central control that's threatening Bitcoin, XT is the only viable option at this time.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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August 18, 2015, 04:42:48 PM
 #31180

I believe congratulations are in order.  We've been moved to the alt-coin section!

WTF is this!?   Angry


LOL U MAD BRO?


#R3KT

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
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