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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2010355 times)
iCEBREAKER
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August 18, 2015, 03:35:54 PM
 #31141


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So who is actually stupid enough to be the first to accept XTcoins?

I honestly don't know.  Not me, that's for sure.  I just run an XT node to be trendy and look cool.


Oh the butthurt of some users in this thread is strong.

 Cheesy


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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August 18, 2015, 03:37:32 PM
 #31142

Meni Rosenfeld on XT: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3h9cq4/its_time_for_a_break_about_the_recent_mess/cu6udfe
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August 18, 2015, 03:41:31 PM
 #31143

On another note, Peter R., did you have a look at my PMs on reddit?

Yes, sorry, I've been caught up by the strangeness of seeing this thread moved.  

I'll answer you question here:  I do not think we should promote this idea more aggressively until we improve its presentation and address some of the objections.  In particular:

1. Solex, Justus, and JorgeStolfi made a good point about the importance of a well-defined limit.  I think the graph I posted yesterday was wrong:



I think there will actually be a vertical line of about 60-80% of the hash power at exactly the same limit, with tails on either side.  The lower-limit tail will eventually get forked off.  If this is true, it would address the concern raised of an attacker publishing a block of just-the-right size to cause a (for example) 47/53 network split.  The reason we get the vertical line of "spontaneous consensus" is that everyone knows that unless that line exists, the network could be forked (game theory).

2. We need to make it clear that this is compatible with BIP101, and that we're not even suggesting that the entire network needs to adopt it.  In other words, we're sort of raising awareness that the limit can be set by the community rather than by the developers of a particular implementation of Bitcoin.  

Of course you are free to do as you wish, but I personally would not mail the proposal to the bitcoin-dev list at this time.  



c'mon Peter, you gotta give me some credit too:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg12167438#msg12167438
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August 18, 2015, 03:44:53 PM
 #31144


Mike Hearn is a board advisor at Circle


Well then, Circle is dead to me until they change that arrangement.  Back to Satoshi Square and Buttonwood.


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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stoat
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August 18, 2015, 03:45:49 PM
 #31145

Can someone please tell me what the problem is with this Bitcoin XT?

Is it a social engineering attack on the Bitcoin network?

See here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1155498.0

How utterly unilluminating.  

Anyone answer my original question?

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August 18, 2015, 04:27:15 PM
 #31146

To further elaborate my thoughts:

The functions of a full node are to provide both monitoring and validation.

Monitoring the state of the network should be the first function of a node. In order to do this a node should a able to keep track of transactions and blocks that may follow differing consensus rules, and detect competing blockchain forks. In the case of block size, the software should keep track of any block regardless of size, subject to its technical ability.

Current software, both XT and Core, do not provide the greatest monitoring, since they only keep track of the longest blockchain that follows the one set of consensus rules they implement.

Validating transactions comes after monitoring, when the node operator can choose which transactions to accept, which to relay, and which proof of work blockchain is considered valid. Trying to stay in sync with network consensus will be of primary importance here.
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August 18, 2015, 04:30:52 PM
 #31147

I do think the founders of Blockstream (mostly gmaxwell and adam3us; the perspectives of the others are somewhat less apparent) have (and, importantly, had; see next paragraph) a different vision for how Bitcoin is supposed to work. Different, that is, from most of the community and also from satoshi's public writings (including the white paper).

You already know adam3us's HashCash is One of the Eight Blessed References in Satoshi's Holy Whitepaper.

Do the authors of all eight of those references, plus the whitepaper itself, agree on everything 100%?
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August 18, 2015, 04:39:06 PM
 #31148

I think cypher is counting all nodes not just the top 5.
the metric to watch is, 1 and 2 are they dropping?
1   /Satoshi:0.11.0/   2229 (36.30%)
2   /Satoshi:0.10.2/   1158 (18.86%)

actually, i don't think we should be looking at %'s.  why?  b/c don't forget that the Cripplecoiner's can spin up their own nodes too just to give the impression that their % share is holding.  i'm concentrating on the absolute #'s for XT nodes.  yes, i'm ignoring the pseudo-XT's for now b/c i think that was a stupid idea out of the box and doubt any of those guys are that dumb to do that. if XT nodes can get up to 3500-4500 or even less, to me, that would be a fantastic sign of adoption and future success of the XT chain as long as miner follow along, which they should.
Agree, I'm not invested in XT per se, it's all nodes that have the equivalent of BIP 101. It's the use of central control to mitigate the problems of central control that's threatening Bitcoin, XT is the only viable option at this time.

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iCEBREAKER
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August 18, 2015, 04:42:48 PM
 #31149

I believe congratulations are in order.  We've been moved to the alt-coin section!

WTF is this!?   Angry


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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Hunyadi
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August 18, 2015, 04:48:54 PM
 #31150

WTF?!?!? Moving this topic to the alt-section was a bitchy move.


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August 18, 2015, 04:50:57 PM
 #31151

I think cypher is counting all nodes not just the top 5.
the metric to watch is, 1 and 2 are they dropping?
1   /Satoshi:0.11.0/   2229 (36.30%)
2   /Satoshi:0.10.2/   1158 (18.86%)



Something you might want to consider; is of the massive mining power in china only one node (from the 105) is actually running XT

 https://getaddr.bitnodes.io/nodes/?page=1&q=China

China has already said they won't support XT

What central authority represents the 100+ nodes running in China? If they want to partake in this relay network they better start supporting it.

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August 18, 2015, 04:55:09 PM
 #31152


Mike Hearn is a board advisor at Circle


Well then, Circle is dead to me until they change that arrangement.  Back to Satoshi Square and Buttonwood.

I'm sure once they hear your displeasure they will oust Mike Hearn immediately.  Roll Eyes  
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August 18, 2015, 04:58:41 PM
 #31153

Can someone support if this is actually happening?

I often read Bitcoin talk from a browser that has no cookies and is not logged in.

I usually start by browsing to the speculation section and click the gold collapsing thread, it's always near the top.

Today however I'm having issues so I though I'd catch up reading on my cookie free browser.

And well cypher it looks like you are now no longer there, I think discussion here has been blocked to the public.

Is this the same for everyone?

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August 18, 2015, 05:27:14 PM
 #31154


Thanks for the that.

Quote
Bitcoin-XT represents a somewhat reckless approach, which in the name of advancement shatters existing structures, fragments the community, and spins the ecosystem into chaos.

A new enemy of Frap.doc and the Gavinistas emerges!

Let's see what kind of poo they fling this time.

If you're going to quote Meni at least have some respect and not take it out of context. here is the full post in it's entirety

Quote
MeniRosenfeldMeni Rosenfeld - Bitcoin Expert 172 points 9 hours ago*x2

Sorry for being the odd one out in theymos' list, not having my stance on the issue clear Smiley. I will clarify it, but only after I explain at length why I reject the whole premise of the question.

This used to be a technical debate about block sizes. We were presented with two bad choices: Keep it at 1MB which is obviously too low, or increase to 8MB/20MB which is obviously too high (obvious to me anyway). As a community we've failed to reach a compromise, and I think that if more people pushed for a reasonable number like 3-4 MB in the short term (including also Gavin and Mike on one extreme, and Peter on the other), things would be different now.

Given that compromise failed, Gavin and Mike went ahead to push Bitcoin-XT, and now the real issue isn't about technology, it's about the philosophy of Bitcoin evolution. To me, Bitcoin-XT represents a somewhat reckless approach, which in the name of advancement shatters existing structures, fragments the community, and spins the ecosystem into chaos. Whereas Bitcoin Core represents a frigid approach, where no technology improvement will ever be made because consensus can't be reached, and where we can't do anything about the fact that we can't do anything, because of the delegitimization of attempts to change the status quo by forking and letting the best currency win (and make no mistakes, there will be many necessary technology improvements down the road; the block size limit pales in comparison).

Both choices are bad.

I had plans once to write a paper about the game-theoretic aspects of changing the Bitcoin protocol, the contingencies in case of a fork, and how the mere threat of a fork can create a Schelling point which would prevent it from happening. I regret never getting around to it, because it might have been illuminating in the current debate. (For that matter, the other paper I had plans for writing was about transaction fees and how they relate to things like a block size limit; I regret that too, but again the block size is no longer the real issue).

But anyway, I do strongly believe that the possibility of forking Bitcoin - even if at first it has no consensus - is vital to Bitcoin's health, growth and survival. It's the glue that holds everything together and makes sure the Bitcoin economy has a say in case something goes wrong with the development. Ideally a contentious fork would forever remain a theoretical possibility - but if it is possible it means it can happen, and that's what we're seeing right now. Rejecting a fork on the grounds that it's a fork is wrong.

Of course, there are grounds to reject Bitcoin-XT on the grounds that its timing and method are wrong. The objection to the technical change was too strong to just gloss over it. We're definitely not anywhere near the point where Pieter, Greg or Wladimir can be conceivably considered rogue and we should break away from them. Mike and Gavin have, quite arrogantly I would say, assumed that this is just like any other software change and that virtually everyone will just automatically follow them, where the reality is far from it. They didn't properly consider the consequences of making this move without enough support. (They might reply that they have been fighting for this for a long time and exhausted all other options, but I don't accept this - they made many attempts at persuasion, but not enough at compromise).

So here we are, having to choose between two bad alternatives. The mere act of choosing commits, in my opinion, the logical fallacy of privileging the hypothesis. There are millions of possible approaches, and "someone" out there restricted them to just 2. Most of the decision process (culling from millions to 2) was made for me and I'm left rubber-stamping one of the choices that remain. (See also http://lesswrong.com/lw/mi/stop_voting_for_nincompoops/).

But hey, even a noisy bit contains some information, and the question was asked, so...

Given the choice between short-term sticking with 1MB or going all the way to 8MB, I am in favor of going to 8MB.

Given the choice between sticking with Bitcoin Core or switching to Bitcoin-XT, I am in slight favor of sticking with Bitcoin Core, but that could change any time.

All that said, the parent post explaining theymos' policy makes no sense to me. As explained above, the possibility of forking is an integral part of Bitcoin. As long as Bitcoin-XT has non-negligible support as the true Bitcoin implementation, even with nothing resembling unanimous consensus, it is a part of what Bitcoin is, and of course is on topic on a Bitcoin subreddit.

Even if for some reason we take a purist approach that Bitcoin = Bitcoin Core, I'd imagine that most posts about Bitcoin-XT would compare it in some way to Bitcoin Core, and as such are on-topic (just like a post comparing Bitcoin and Litecoin would be on topic).

I'm considering upgrading the above to a post, but honestly, since it includes a discussion of Bitcoin-XT, I'm not even sure it passes the moderation rules...
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