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Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2028278 times)
justusranvier
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May 04, 2015, 01:34:15 PM
 #23401

I don't think we need the same security model for buying loaves of bread that we use for buying homes,.
Of course you do, once you understand what the security problem is.

The entire job of the Bitcoin network is to make sure that the number of currency units is exactly correct at all times.

There's probably a hundred million loaves of bread sold every day, which represents a hundred million opportunities to improperly expand the currency supply.
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cypherdoc
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May 04, 2015, 01:49:38 PM
 #23402

I don't think we need the same security model for buying loaves of bread that we use for buying homes,.
Of course you do, once you understand what the security problem is.

The entire job of the Bitcoin network is to make sure that the number of currency units is exactly correct at all times.

There's probably a hundred million loaves of bread sold every day, which represents a hundred million opportunities to improperly expand the currency supply.

Give me an inch and I'll take a mile?

Sounds like banks.
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May 04, 2015, 02:02:40 PM
 #23403

I don't think we need the same security model for buying loaves of bread that we use for buying homes,.
Of course you do, once you understand what the security problem is.

The entire job of the Bitcoin network is to make sure that the number of currency units is exactly correct at all times.

There's probably a hundred million loaves of bread sold every day, which represents a hundred million opportunities to improperly expand the currency supply.

Give me an inch and I'll take a mile?

Sounds like banks.

Maybe the better analogy would be HFT bots that steal pennies on every trade. Multiply that by 100M and pretty soon you're making real money.
justusranvier
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May 04, 2015, 02:15:41 PM
 #23404

Multiply that by 100M and pretty soon you're making real money.
Here's an example of a money protocol that allowed for "only" 3%/year worth of double spending:

cypherdoc
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May 04, 2015, 02:43:17 PM
 #23405

Grinding higher
justusranvier
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May 04, 2015, 03:47:03 PM
 #23406

Far from it. Though I expect each can approach it on their chosen level and interpret it through familiar lens filters, however limiting and distorted that may prove to be.
I assumed you were referring to the Lightning Network method of creating a jobs program for soon-to-unemployed bankers rather than just solving the Bitcoin scalability problem directly.
mrhelpful
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May 04, 2015, 04:36:28 PM
 #23407

If the fall our dollar started way way back, and comparing now shouldnt it be on the road to zimbawe money.

But its not doing this because other international reletionships doing the same thing for others and private loans to one another. Its crazy cause I just a recent documentary where this guy bought $3 mill companies with cash he didnt have and went to the bank asking for it.  

Since the rates were dirt cheap.
lunarboy
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May 04, 2015, 05:46:52 PM
 #23408

Auzzies going to be the first to tax savings? The war on savers heats up.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-05-04/war-cash-australia-leads-new-age-economic-totalitarianism
cypherdoc
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May 04, 2015, 07:57:29 PM
 #23409


*btw, I'm still curious what your full node consumes in bandwidth?

cypherdoc
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May 04, 2015, 08:05:48 PM
 #23410

just to memorialize the results of last poll:



cypherdoc
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May 04, 2015, 08:09:32 PM
 #23411

new poll
Erdogan
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May 04, 2015, 08:17:56 PM
 #23412

new poll

Cool, but this time there is no "unlimited" option.

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May 04, 2015, 08:23:19 PM
 #23413

new poll

Cool, but this time there is no "unlimited" option.



well, certainly i'm no expert in polling; i just feed 'em like i see 'em.

if you have any suggestions, lemme know.

edit:  given Gavin's proposal, it looks like the "unlimited" option is off the table for now, so in this sense, this latest poll is heading in the right direction.
Erdogan
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May 04, 2015, 08:51:31 PM
 #23414

new poll

Cool, but this time there is no "unlimited" option.



well, certainly i'm no expert in polling; i just feed 'em like i see 'em.

if you have any suggestions, lemme know.

edit:  given Gavin's proposal, it looks like the "unlimited" option is off the table for now, so in this sense, this latest poll is heading in the right direction.

Yes, let's get 20 MB going, then new poll Smiley
Natalia_AnatolioPAMM
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May 04, 2015, 09:47:00 PM
 #23415

Multiply that by 100M and pretty soon you're making real money.
Here's an example of a money protocol that allowed for "only" 3%/year worth of double spending:



never realized it's that bad unless saw the graphs like this one
rocks
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May 04, 2015, 09:53:22 PM
 #23416

Multiply that by 100M and pretty soon you're making real money.
Here's an example of a money protocol that allowed for "only" 3%/year worth of double spending:



never realized it's that bad unless saw the graphs like this one

Even this chart is misleading, since it is linear it does not show how the dollar continued drop over the past 30 years. Instead it looks relatively flat.

The log chart shows how this process is continuing. Even though the dollar has already lost 98% purchasing power, dropping to 99% is really another 50% lose, not the 1% drop shown on this chart.
sickpig
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May 04, 2015, 10:16:33 PM
 #23417

With UTXO merkle tree the whole thing does not need to be in phone RAM.  Or even on the phone.  phone clients could validate and fwd txns iff they are connected to wifi.  The only parts of the UTXO merkle tree that needs to be processed is the logn route from each UTXO involved in a txn to the tree root.  So very doable on today's mid range smart phone esp with a good sized uSD expansion.

On that matter I've just found out an etotheipi's (armory core dev) proposal "Ultimate blockchain compression w/ trust-free lite nodes" that he made in June 2012. This is the summary:

Use a special tree data structure to organize all unspent-TxOuts on the network, and use the root of this tree to communicate its "signature" between nodes.  The leaves of this tree actually correspond to addresses/scripts, and the data at the leaf is actually a root of the unspent-TxOut list for that address/script.  To maintain security of the tree signatures, it will be included in the header of an alternate blockchain, which will be secured by merged mining.  

This provides the same compression as the simpler unspent-TxOut merkle tree, but also gives nodes a way to download just the unspent-TxOut list for each address in their wallet, and verify that list directly against the blockheaders.  Therefore, even lightweight nodes can get full address information, from any untrusted peer, and with only a tiny amount of downloaded data (a few kB).  

More recently TierNolan with his "Locally verifiable unspent transaction output commitments" is "sketching" his idea of a potential implementation. 

A proposal to help SPV nodes verify blocks is to commit the root of an (unbalanced) Merkle tree containing all unspent (and spendable) transaction outputs.

It is possible to create proofs of validity for each modification of the set.  The proof would prove that inserting an entry into a tree with a root of X will give a new tree with a root of Y.  There would also be proofs for removing entries.

it seems that the idea of an "UTXO" light node to add to the the list of the already implemented nodes (full, spv, pruned) is gaining momentum.

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
HeliKopterBen
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May 04, 2015, 10:19:11 PM
 #23418

Bitcoin, while its issuance is capped at 21M, the software can be duplicated thousands of times.

The ability to clone/fork the software is a feature, not a bug.  Take the Euro for example, which is under a round of QE right now.  Imagine if Euro savers could easily clone the entire Euro monetary system, take out the QE, and put the QE_less system into production to compete.  Which fork would win?  I imagine sound money would win.

The only thing that cannot be duplicated is processing power.  Processing power is in finite supply, so whichever fork garners the most processing power wins.  The ability to clone the software keeps the system honest.

Counterfeit:  made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive:  merriam-webster
tabnloz
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May 05, 2015, 01:09:55 AM
 #23419

Grabbed this off ZH

Australia to Introduce Bank Deposits tax in upcoming budget.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-05-04/war-cash-australia-leads-new-age-economic-totalitarianism

From a google search

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/financial-services/deposit-tax-banks-oppose-budget-tax-plan/story-fn91wd6x-1227284293520

ZH sees it as a trial balloon with US watching the reaction carefully.
cypherdoc
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May 05, 2015, 02:23:55 AM
 #23420

interesting logarithmic Monte Carlo simulation of tx confirmation delays related to progressive filling of current 1MB block size.  bottom line is we need an increase in the block size otherwise confirmation delays will exponentially increase as the fill reaches the max.  note in the conclusion who would benefit from NOT increasing the block size; "SC's".  no wonder gmax and LukeJr are spamming Reddit in defiance of Gavin's proposal:

http://hashingit.com/analysis/34-bitcoin-traffic-bulletin

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