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Author Topic: Is Bitcoin money? An analysis from the Austrian school of economic thought  (Read 2943 times)
twiifm
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July 20, 2014, 03:44:44 AM
 #21

I love it that all the "Austrian economists" here backtrack when one of their own says bitcoin is not money.  Pure comedy.  LOL
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July 20, 2014, 11:43:29 AM
 #22

I love it that all the "Austrian economists" here backtrack when one of their own says bitcoin is not money.  Pure comedy.  LOL

The regression theorem has been a showstopper for some austrians.

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July 20, 2014, 01:42:41 PM
 #23

bitcoin is the money of the future
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July 21, 2014, 12:21:31 PM
 #24

Most people here are austrians and regard bitcoin as money. The problem with the regression theorem has been discussed in depth. It is either wrong, or bitcoin is a follow up to fiat money.

Wrong. Sorry. The Regression Theorem is right, just the understanding of many people (even learned people) is wrong.

The Regression Theorem answer a simple question: "what is the value of a fiat currency based on"?.
It explain the currency today's value is based on the value of the currency yesterday (or one hour ago).
Then you can take back to the last time it was convertible in gold (or something else like silver, salt, fur, etc.)
Then you can take the value of gold (or whatever was used at the time) from the last  moment it was convertible in fiat at a fixed rate until the first time it was used as an indirect mean of exchange.
Then what could be the value of gold, at the time, based on?
It was based on its direct use value (because there was nothing else to give it value).

People usually understand this as "to be money you need to start from some commodity with value, better if it have a large value".
And they are not completely wrong, because larger is the value (compared to its weight and size) better as a money these commodities will perform.
But it don't say "something without a direct use value" can not become money or a mean of indirect exchange (money being the most accepted and available of these).

If it has the ideal characteristic of money (by design) it can start from zero and climb from there just starting from a non-zero value introduced just by chance. What I call "noise".
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July 21, 2014, 01:11:49 PM
 #25

Most people here are austrians and regard bitcoin as money. The problem with the regression theorem has been discussed in depth. It is either wrong, or bitcoin is a follow up to fiat money.

Wrong. Sorry. The Regression Theorem is right, just the understanding of many people (even learned people) is wrong.

The Regression Theorem answer a simple question: "what is the value of a fiat currency based on"?.
It explain the currency today's value is based on the value of the currency yesterday (or one hour ago).
Then you can take back to the last time it was convertible in gold (or something else like silver, salt, fur, etc.)
Then you can take the value of gold (or whatever was used at the time) from the last  moment it was convertible in fiat at a fixed rate until the first time it was used as an indirect mean of exchange.
Then what could be the value of gold, at the time, based on?
It was based on its direct use value (because there was nothing else to give it value).

People usually understand this as "to be money you need to start from some commodity with value, better if it have a large value".
And they are not completely wrong, because larger is the value (compared to its weight and size) better as a money these commodities will perform.
But it don't say "something without a direct use value" can not become money or a mean of indirect exchange (money being the most accepted and available of these).

If it has the ideal characteristic of money (by design) it can start from zero and climb from there just starting from a non-zero value introduced just by chance. What I call "noise".


You just stated (in bold) that the regression theorem is wrong.

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July 21, 2014, 03:14:38 PM
 #26


If it has the ideal characteristic of money (by design) it can start from zero and climb from there just starting from a non-zero value introduced just by chance. What I call "noise".


You just stated (in bold) that the regression theorem is wrong.

If you read http://mises.org/humanaction/chap17sec4.asp carefully, you will not find anything denying my i nterpretation

"This certainly does not involve explaining the specific monetary exchange value of a medium of exchange on the ground of its industrial exchange value." (cit. L.v. Mises)

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July 21, 2014, 03:35:40 PM
 #27


If it has the ideal characteristic of money (by design) it can start from zero and climb from there just starting from a non-zero value introduced just by chance. What I call "noise".


You just stated (in bold) that the regression theorem is wrong.

If you read http://mises.org/humanaction/chap17sec4.asp carefully, you will not find anything denying my i nterpretation

"This certainly does not involve explaining the specific monetary exchange value of a medium of exchange on the ground of its industrial exchange value." (cit. L.v. Mises)



That's something different.
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October 10, 2014, 02:04:01 PM
 #28

Hi, just noticed this. I'm the author of this paper. This thread brightened my day! If you have any questions, requests, or comments don't hesitate to contact me, although I am rather busy these days. First and foremost I'm happy that my work has resulted in some discourse  Smiley

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October 10, 2014, 07:50:44 PM
 #29


If it has the ideal characteristic of money (by design) it can start from zero and climb from there just starting from a non-zero value introduced just by chance. What I call "noise".


You just stated (in bold) that the regression theorem is wrong.

If you read http://mises.org/humanaction/chap17sec4.asp carefully, you will not find anything denying my i nterpretation

"This certainly does not involve explaining the specific monetary exchange value of a medium of exchange on the ground of its industrial exchange value." (cit. L.v. Mises)



That's something different.


Can I just say this exactly why I find it annoying when people try to be clever using complicated words like fallacious and ad hominem without actually fucking researching properly what it really means or conveniently ignoring the fact that they're doing it themselves, just saying, it's been spammed around this board a lot lately, it doesn't make you look clever when you use it, just rather ignorant and irritating.

Please internet, get a damn dictionary and look at the meaning of a word or phrase before you use it, as for this whole argument amongst Austrian economics about Bitcoin the one thing that people tend to bicker on is the intrinsic value of Bitcoin and I personally think that is the blockchain, the ledger and the ability to transfer the money anywhere in the world.

Edit: OH LOOK AT WHAT I FOUND!

http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Regression_theorem

In five seconds -_-
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October 10, 2014, 11:23:47 PM
 #30

Hi, just noticed this. I'm the author of this paper. This thread brightened my day! If you have any questions, requests, or comments don't hesitate to contact me, although I am rather busy these days. First and foremost I'm happy that my work has resulted in some discourse  Smiley

I've not read everything but what I have read is not bad at all.  I was rather hoping to see some detailed economic analysis of the block generation system but I imagine what I'm looking for is beyond the scope of an M.Sc.  This was more of a literary review, and a reasonably fair and thorough one at that.  Some quick notes:

Page 18: What do you mean by:
Quote
(since bitcoins are not strictly defined as property)
I would certainly consider bitcoins property.

Page 41: laszlo bought 2 pizzas for 10 000 BTC: thread and pics.

Page 72: It's not clear to me what point you are making with:
Quote
Furthermore, if Gresham’s law is followed, and a situation is imagined where a person has a choice of paying with a depreciating currency (fiat money) or an appreciating one (bitcoins as synthetic commodity money which will eventually become inelastic), that person will pay with the depreciating currency and choose to hold on to the appreciating one. This would limit the widespread use of the appreciating currency. This is often called the reverse Gresham’s law or Thiers’ law (Rolnick & Weber, 1986).

Page 75: Chapter 9 seemed to me to carry a political bias which did not keep with analytical nature of the work up to this point.  I draw attention in particular to a sentence from page 78:
Quote
Authorities must impose regulations because the alternative is to leave the Bitcoin system completely alone, since it is impossible to shut it down ...
It appears that the necessity of regulation is taken as axiomatic and a case is only made for light regulation versus heavy regulation (please correct me if I'm wrong; it's late).  To clarify, I wouldn't expect you to apply a libertarian ethos to this section simply because this is an Austrian perspective, but would hope for something more politically neutral and broad minded where the notion of a state not regulating Bitcoin activity at all is entertained.
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