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Author Topic: Has anyone witnessed moving up the ask wall enough to get a good short on bitcoi  (Read 3453 times)
Hunterbunter
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March 22, 2012, 12:48:53 AM
 #21

I think they would match internally against buyers first, since they then don't have to pay a gox transaction fee.

I understand why they would want to do that...I'm just not sure if they realize it is at odds with the whole nature and point of shorting to begin with. If a person's transactions have no real effect on the market, it is incredibly easy to fuck with people if you know there are a lot of people leveraged (recent starfish problem, and now an "interest" problem).

Also...in the real world 10,000 leveraged buys is a 10k move in the marketplace. If you do that on bitcoinica, you're exposing yourself to 10k risk without the real world benefit of just buying 10k shares.

We match internally only when we can. If one customer buys 100 and the other sells 50. We just buy 50 from the market, instead of buying 100 and then selling 50, which merely removes liquidity and increases transaction costs.

Like I said, I understand why you do it. What is your window to buffer a matched order?

It's not a time buffer but an amount buffer. We don't disclose the exact amount, but it's definitely under 1000 ฿.

I suspected as much, so that's good to know. Good luck with your business.

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zhoutong
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March 22, 2012, 03:01:15 AM
 #22

It's not a time buffer but an amount buffer. We don't disclose the exact amount, but it's definitely under 1000 ฿.
internal matching go against the users  everybody loses only bitcoinica wins money by saving mtgox fees, user dont have a alternative to bitcoinica and have to eat this crap, lets hope somebody make a alternative and you get some competition

We hope to. We have nowhere to copy the good ideas from.

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March 22, 2012, 03:53:42 AM
 #23

We hope to. We have nowhere to copy the good ideas from.
any forex/CFD can give you some ideas, they have stuff like 100% order execution you can copy that 

Forex has no centralized market. So this guarantee is simply invalid. Any citations?

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March 22, 2012, 10:41:46 PM
 #24

Forex has no centralized market. So this guarantee is simply invalid. Any citations?
nobody wants to trade where all order have internal matching, especially in a market like this when a buy or sell can change the current price preventing any matching

if i sell the 50 at 4.82 the price goes down so is impossible to match my order with a buy order at same price, internal matching is reducing the impact  i have on bitcoin market you tend to forget that you forget that we need market swing to make decent money but also you forget that when there are no swing the volume on bitcoinica  drops like a rock  

If it's impossible to match, we will sell at Mt. Gox. That's guaranteed!

We either match your order with another Bitcoinica customer or another Mt. Gox customer. There's no difference in market impact.

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March 23, 2012, 12:17:11 AM
 #25

yes it is a market impact because the time between order is way to big that few second means allot 50 btc buy or sell can move the market 0,01 cent up or down

put the time limit for internal matching to be 1 second and we all see the results

What? I can't understand your meaning without grammar. Why would you want a time limit on internal matching?

Zhou finds you the best price that can fill your order - internal or at Gox. Why is this a problem?
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March 23, 2012, 01:21:36 AM
 #26

Why is this a problem?
is harder to move the price

I am sorry, until you stop abusing the English language and start forming complete thoughts, I give up.
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March 23, 2012, 01:53:47 AM
 #27

Why is this a problem?
is harder to move the price

I am sorry, until you stop abusing the English language and start forming complete thoughts, I give up.

Give the guy a break. He probably knows 2-3 languages fluently and 1-2 others so-so like English.
To criticize people like that is really odd considering they seem to be quite smart based on their
language ability overall.

This all assumes he is not a native English speaker. I hope. ;-)
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March 23, 2012, 02:48:35 AM
 #28

It's not a time buffer but an amount buffer. We don't disclose the exact amount, but it's definitely under 1000 ฿.
internal matching go against the users  everybody loses only bitcoinica wins money by saving mtgox fees, user dont have a alternative to bitcoinica and have to eat this crap, lets hope somebody make a alternative and you get some competition

IMO, Internal matching, if done without prejudice by the broker, simply increases order execution speed (something I'd really like from bitcoinica).

Hard to prove lack of prejudice on the broker's side, but.....

One thing that other brokers (i.e. Intersango) offer is a Fill or Kill order. Offering these would provide the order execution that it seems myself wants.
- I want BTC50 @ USD4.77
- Does bitcoinica have orders to match? If yes, filled, if no, or partial,
- Can the order be filled on the network (i.e. mtgox) if yes, fill order, if no, kill it.

If the brokerages were smart, they'd form a network and defeat the arbitrage bots exploiting the difference in rates between them. This would make orders fill much faster, and show the actual true market cap of bitcoin.

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March 23, 2012, 06:27:08 AM
 #29

It's not a time buffer but an amount buffer. We don't disclose the exact amount, but it's definitely under 1000 ฿.
internal matching go against the users  everybody loses only bitcoinica wins money by saving mtgox fees, user dont have a alternative to bitcoinica and have to eat this crap, lets hope somebody make a alternative and you get some competition

IMO, Internal matching, if done without prejudice by the broker, simply increases order execution speed (something I'd really like from bitcoinica).

Hard to prove lack of prejudice on the broker's side, but.....

One thing that other brokers (i.e. Intersango) offer is a Fill or Kill order. Offering these would provide the order execution that it seems myself wants.
- I want BTC50 @ USD4.77
- Does bitcoinica have orders to match? If yes, filled, if no, or partial,
- Can the order be filled on the network (i.e. mtgox) if yes, fill order, if no, kill it.

If the brokerages were smart, they'd form a network and defeat the arbitrage bots exploiting the difference in rates between them. This would make orders fill much faster, and show the actual true market cap of bitcoin.

+100

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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March 23, 2012, 07:06:07 AM
 #30

I am sorry, until you stop abusing the English language and start forming complete thoughts, I give up.
how i explain you this
lets say we have this perfect situation where the price is 5 usd
the sell is 4,99
buy is 5,01
low awesome spread Smiley
a 50 btc buy or sell will move the price 0,02 USD
now i make a sell order at 12:00:00 for 50 btc
and you make a buy order at 12:00:02 for 50 btc
our orders are not internally matched because my order was 2 seconds earlier that yours
my order gets executed the sell price goes down at 4,97
you buy order get executed the buy price goes to 5,03
this did change the price  if our orders get internally matched nothing have changed and you or me have to spend additionally bitcoin to move the price

u get my point ?

Firstly, if it's 5000 btc not 50, I can guarantee that it will be hedged.

Secondly, Bitcoinica was not designed to move the price. With the same amount of money, you almost always end up with more bought Bitcoins on Bitcoinica (without leverage). That's because your orders are being executed in 50 ฿ blocks.

Thirdly, you can move the price more effectively at smaller exchanges. Bitcoinica is just too liquid for you. It depends on your definition of trading.

You have the choice, but you can't prevent others from getting a better deal than you.

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March 23, 2012, 02:05:54 PM
 #31

i used 50 like example because that is the chunk used on bitcoinica and now the 5000 you wont be all hedged you only hedge a part because of that when there is a major change in the marker the hedge on bitcoinica goes over 100%

if bitcoinica is not designed to move the price why offer leverage ? remove the sell and  buy buttons and put some sitting ducks

bitcoinica to liquid give me a break 20 000 btc traded in last 24h that amount of bitcoins can be moved by a single user

if you go to the point take or leave it there is not much i can say on that other that leave it  

If you buy or sell 5000 BTC now I can guarantee you more than 90% will be hedged, and you will move the price. The over-100% hedging has nothing to do with this.

Bitcoinica is more liquid than Mt. Gox. (Bitcoinica liquidity = Bitcoinica dark pool + Mt. Gox order book) Again, liquidity has nothing to do with volume.

We are going to release our limit order book and all executed trades to the public. Will announce the details soon.

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March 23, 2012, 06:47:58 PM
 #32


We are going to release our limit order book and all executed trades to the public. Will announce the details soon.

Nice!

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March 23, 2012, 11:03:18 PM
 #33

Mt.Gox doesn't offer me any leverage.

Bitcoinica is a broker, Mt.Gox is an exchange. The rules are different, the opportunities are different. They're not stealing from you with the spread. The spread is necessarily higher than Mt.Gox to support those opportunities. Opportunity doesn't come free.
 

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March 24, 2012, 12:24:14 AM
 #34

Mt.Gox doesn't offer me any leverage.

Bitcoinica is a broker, Mt.Gox is an exchange. The rules are different, the opportunities are different. They're not stealing from you with the spread. The spread is necessarily higher than Mt.Gox to support those opportunities. Opportunity doesn't come free.
 

+1

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March 24, 2012, 12:53:35 AM
 #35

Doing this can result in your Bitcoinica account being closed. We don't allow fraudulent orders that try to cheat the pricing bot.

We are rolling out a major rewrite of our order matching engine for much faster order processing to eliminate the possibility of fraudulent orders.

EDIT: We closed one account during the early days of Bitcoinica because of fraudulent trading. After that, we implemented pricing algorithm version 2, and it's harder to manipulate the price now. We are going to release pricing algorithm version 4 soon.

fraudulent orders???  LOL, it is you who is defrauding your customers by not accepting all orders - like a casino that asks you to leave if you are winning too much.

cheat the pricing bot???  BWAHAHA, the 'pricing bot' forces you to pay a 2% spread when MtGox has a spread a tenth of that and you don't even have to pay it - who is cheating who?


Mt. Gox spread isn't always effective spread. If the order is 0.1 ฿ it shouldn't be counted. Try looking for 50 ฿ liquidity on each side, and then add your Mt. Gox fee. Is Bitcoinica expensive after all?

If you're paying 0.6% on Mt. Gox, you can almost always get a better deal on Bitcoinica.

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March 24, 2012, 02:37:53 AM
 #36

going long on bitcoinica is getting quite expensive per day per 100 btc....
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March 24, 2012, 04:38:40 AM
 #37

going long on bitcoinica is getting quite expensive per day per 100 btc....

If you use exchange feature you don't have to pay interest. If you borrow money to buy the 100 BTC then you need to pay 25 cents per day at current interest rate.

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March 24, 2012, 07:28:17 AM
 #38

going long on bitcoinica is getting quite expensive per day per 100 btc....

If you use exchange feature you don't have to pay interest. If you borrow money to buy the 100 BTC then you need to pay 25 cents per day at current interest rate.

yet right now a short pays nothing. i am not clear why borrowing btc to sell also does not cost something let alone pays most of the time.
how do you calculate such things?

edited to add: i just sent some btc from bitcoinica to an address and it has said pending for the last 42 minutes... odd that something has
to sit like that for so long. I should have seen it at least hit the network right away or are you doing something manually?
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March 24, 2012, 10:08:42 AM
 #39

going long on bitcoinica is getting quite expensive per day per 100 btc....

If you use exchange feature you don't have to pay interest. If you borrow money to buy the 100 BTC then you need to pay 25 cents per day at current interest rate.

yet right now a short pays nothing. i am not clear why borrowing btc to sell also does not cost something let alone pays most of the time.
how do you calculate such things?

edited to add: i just sent some btc from bitcoinica to an address and it has said pending for the last 42 minutes... odd that something has
to sit like that for so long. I should have seen it at least hit the network right away or are you doing something manually?

BTC costs less to get (depending on available customer deposits) and USD costs more. The interest rate difference determines the swap.

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