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Author Topic: Intellectual Property: Intellectually Bankrupt  (Read 3201 times)
goatpig
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May 03, 2011, 01:54:21 AM
 #21

cannot do with my own brain.

First of all, I'm not trying to control anything. Your stance that IP defenders will resort to force is oblivious to the concept that IP and non aggression are perfectly compatible. If you don't respect IP, I simply stop considering such endeavor as profitable and will naturally reduce my output of such content to strict necessary levels.

Also, in this argument, I am not trying to control what you can do or not do with your brain, since you couldn't do it without my brain coming up with it first.

The point about the chair is that modification of shape does not nullify property. The design is an energy pattern in my head. Since energy is matter, then I own this energy. The fact that it is out in the public doesn't mean you can just take it. If I leave my bike next to a wall, would you take it? According to your very own point, that matter and energy are but the same, then an original energy pattern, where ever it stands, belongs to the designer.

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NghtRppr
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May 03, 2011, 01:55:32 AM
 #22

Yes. Don't take my word for it. Look it up.

It is your part to provide documentation on that...

If you don't know that electromagnetism is one of the four fundamental physical forces found in nature then...  Undecided
goatpig
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May 03, 2011, 01:57:51 AM
 #23

People will contribute to the best of their ability. Plenty of researchers use funds that come from voluntary, non-refundable contributions already.

Yet, if every member of the group helped instead of hoping to get the cure for free, the research would go faster.

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NghtRppr
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May 03, 2011, 02:02:55 AM
 #24

Since energy is matter, then I own this energy. The fact that it is out in the public doesn't mean you can just take it. If I leave my bike next to a wall, would you take it? According to your very own point, that matter and energy are but the same, then an original energy pattern, where ever it stands, belongs to the designer.

You own the energy, not the pattern. Also, once you release energy back into the environment it becomes unowned abandoned property. Do you think you can leave your bike on my property forever and I shouldn't be able to claim it?
goatpig
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May 03, 2011, 02:04:16 AM
 #25

If you don't know that electromagnetism is one of the four fundamental physical forces found in nature then...  Undecided

That is not what I asked of you. I asked you to document me on how the application of an electric field with a magnetic field producing a electromagnetic force normal to the plane of those two fields consists in matter. There is a clear difference between fundamental and quantum physics.

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goatpig
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May 03, 2011, 02:07:25 AM
 #26

You own the energy, not the pattern. Also, once you release energy back into the environment it becomes unowned abandoned property.

You come up with these as we go, don't you? And still, according to your rules, I can own that environment.

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Do you think you can leave your bike on my property forever and I shouldn't be able to claim it?

Who said I'd leave it in your property? And even if it was, your only right is to remove my property from yours, not to bestow it upon yourself. Or else, are you going to claim what is mine simply because you touched it?

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FatherMcGruder
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May 03, 2011, 02:12:30 AM
 #27

Yet, if every member of the group helped instead of hoping to get the cure for free, the research would go faster.
Helping the effort should be voluntary though. Intellectual property is non-voluntary because even if you procure a product through your own labor, you don't actually own it because you're bound to whatever IP restrictions the rights-holder attached to it. Anyway, most members of healthy, IP-free societies will voluntarily contribute, according to the best of their abilities, to beneficial causes. The thought of a few slackers not contributing to a good cause seems less harmful than lucky creators using government force to ransom good ideas that are otherwise free to share.

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NghtRppr
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May 03, 2011, 02:13:05 AM
 #28

I can own that environment.

Most people call it real estate, but sure. Yes you can own real estate. So can I and I do.

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Who said I'd leave it in your property? And even if it was, your only right is to remove my property from yours, not to bestow it upon yourself. Or else, are you going to claim what is mine simply because you touched it?

I claim that if you abandon property, it becomes unowned and I can claim it. Leaving your bike on my lawn overnight probably isn't abandoning it but leaving it there for year definitely is. I can't draw an exact time distinction between the two but there certainly is a difference.
goatpig
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May 03, 2011, 02:18:04 AM
 #29

The thought of a few slackers not contributing to a good cause seems less harmful than lucky creators using government force to ransom good ideas that are otherwise free to share.

The way the government handles IP doesn't make IP bad, only the government. The same could be said about regular property.

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I claim that if you abandon property, it becomes unowned and I can claim it. Leaving your bike on my lawn overnight probably isn't abandoning it but leaving it there for year definitely is. I can't draw an exact time distinction between the two but there certainly is a difference.

Without knowledge of my intent, you are simply being violent. As I said, the only thing you can rightfully do, is to remove my property from yours. Or else, what if the cumulated time I left my bike on the curb amounts to a year, can you just pick it up and call it yours?

Nevertheless, this has drifted from the original point, on which I simply give up trying to prove my point. Good night to you, sir.

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NghtRppr
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May 03, 2011, 02:22:24 AM
 #30

Good night to you, sir.

Good night.
FatherMcGruder
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May 03, 2011, 02:30:40 AM
 #31

The way the government handles IP doesn't make IP bad, only the government. The same could be said about regular property.
Intellectual property requires governmental enforcement of some kind to exist.

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Check out bitcoinity.org and Ripple.

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chickenado
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May 03, 2011, 08:34:35 AM
 #32

Right, so radio waves are physical?

Radio waves are electromagnetic radiation.

Electromagnetic radiation is very physical indeed. 

Anyone who ever got a sunburn will agree. 

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How do you argue against IP if you stand by that point anyways? If all forms are of either energy, matter, or both, and that energy and matter are equivalent, then intellect is as much of a property as anything else.

Let's get back to your stealing electricity analogy.

The only way for someone to tap into your electricity cable is to physically interact with it and to modify its physical properties (in this case the current flowing through it) without your consent.  Ergo, property rights violation.

What if someone obtains the contents of a book you have written, by photographing it with a telescope while you are reading it in your garden? This time there is no property violation because the physical properties of your book have not been modified without your consent. It's still exactly the same book. You could argue that the light bouncing off the book has been captured without your consent, but that light (and the information contained therein) stops being your property once it leaves your land.  It was your responsibility to ensure that doesn't happen if you want to keep the information secret.


 
caveden
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May 03, 2011, 09:17:42 AM
 #33

How do you argue against IP if you stand by that point anyways? If all forms are of either energy, matter, or both, and that energy and matter are equivalent, then intellect is as much of a property as anything else.

Simple. You own a piece of wood. You shape it into a chair and it stills belongs to you. The only thing you applied upon it is work.

I own my brain. I formulate a design with it. By your standards, it belongs to me.


Yes, you may claim that the "waves in your brain" or whatever are the result of your work done with your property (body) and therefore belongs to you. It's a weird claim but philosophically speaking it seems ok.
But if in the use of your property you cause consequences to my property, you have no right whatsoever to claim that my property now belongs to you.
For ex., if in the use of your legitimate creation you produce sound waves - which could still be considered yours - that hit my brain or my recorder, you're causing a (positive) externality to my property. Unless we had some sort of contract, that doesn't give you any right over what's mine.

The closest way you could voluntarily simulate IP is by using contracts. But for someone to be submitted to a contract he must have had agreed on it, and that's is the greatest problem with IP. If person A produces something and releases it to person B under some contractual rules, but B ignores such rules and passes such content to person C, person A has no recourse against C, only against B.

Calling a thief someone that downloads movies or music via p2p is plain calumny.

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ribuck
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May 03, 2011, 10:22:25 AM
 #34

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Matter and energy are equivalent.

Keep this serious please.
Einstein's famous equation E=mc2 describes the equivalence between energy and mass. Quantum physics is not involved.

If you push something so that it goes faster, the energy from your push increases the mass of the object by the amount indicated by E=mc2. This is quite a small amount, so we don't notice it in day-to-day life, but it is readily measurable.

In the same way, a battery gets slightly heavier when you charge it up, and slightly lighter when you discharge it. This is due to the extra energy in the charged battery causing chemical changes that result in matter that has a higher energy state (and is therefore more massive according to E=mc2). Freaky, huh?
goatpig
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May 03, 2011, 03:57:29 PM
 #35

Einstein's famous equation E=mc2 describes the equivalence between energy and mass. Quantum physics is not involved.

If you push something so that it goes faster, the energy from your push increases the mass of the object by the amount indicated by E=mc2. This is quite a small amount, so we don't notice it in day-to-day life, but it is readily measurable.

In the same way, a battery gets slightly heavier when you charge it up, and slightly lighter when you discharge it. This is due to the extra energy in the charged battery causing chemical changes that result in matter that has a higher energy state (and is therefore more massive according to E=mc2). Freaky, huh?

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A common way of defining matter is as anything that has mass and occupies volume

How convenient to forget about the second property of matter...

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BitterTea
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May 03, 2011, 04:09:18 PM
 #36

goatpig, I think you should give in on this point. First of all, it seems rather tangential to the discussion, second... you're either wrong or this argument is meaningless.

A common way of defining matter is as anything that has mass and occupies volume

Common != rigorous

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter#Protons.2C_neutrons_and_electrons_definition
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A definition of "matter" more fine-scale than the atoms and molecules definition is: matter is made up of what atoms and molecules are made of, meaning anything made of protons, neutrons, and electrons.
NghtRppr
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May 03, 2011, 06:12:41 PM
 #37

I'm still waiting for him to mention the holographic principle. Anyways, the distinction isn't between physical and nonphysical but rather concrete and abstract. You can't own abstract objects only concrete objects.
joeydangerous
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May 04, 2011, 08:40:19 AM
 #38

Bitcoin2cash, well said in the first post. I do artwork as my trade and understanding why IP isn't property was hard for me to accept for a long time, but I think if you want to be free, you have to give up that one rule you think benefits you. Though now I realize it doesn't benefit me to have a violent gang "protecting" my IP. They only really protect the big corporate interests.
BitterTea
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May 04, 2011, 11:51:35 AM
 #39

Really insightful post on the subject.
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May 04, 2011, 06:57:30 PM
 #40

Goatpig's trolling about energy and matter is a distraction - a strawman - that is beside the point.  Ip-freedom advocates aren't at all arguing about energy vs matter, but instead question the restriction on duplication of patterns that were obtained without coercion.

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
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