0.19 J/GH - CoinBau looks for investors in German mining technology

[Markus, CoinBau]

DRESDEN, GERMANY – ASICrising GmbH has developed the most power efficient mining hardware on the market, we are going to build the most profitable mine. And you can participate.  
 
The ASICrising GmbH will become CoinBau AG, a German incorporated company, selling shares. Your advantages as a shareholder of the mine are: CoinBau will produce its own hardware, avoiding any margins for hardware developers. No selling costs or fees for brokerage as in cloud-hashing scenarios will come up. You will partially own the mine, the hardware, the profit, a constant proportion of the global hash rate with always up-tp-date hardware. We will not make profit as long as you don't.  
 
Seems too good to be true? German engineering makes it possible. We are ASICrising, a high-tech start-up located in Dresden, Germany, the centre of Europe’s largest microelectronic cluster, Silicon Saxony. Founded in July 2013, ASICrising is a team of experienced electronic system engineers, with top expertise in integrated circuit design, PCB design and software development.  
 
We taped-out our 1st generation 28nm Bitcoin mining ASIC in August last year and developed a 1.8 TH/s mining rig based on that. The complete ASIC and rig development as well as the manufacturing of a limited number of engineering samples was completely financed by ourselves. For more information about our hardware and us, have a look at www.asicrising.com.  
 
In the last 6 months, our team of chip design experts has worked hard on the second generation of our ASIC. The result is a 28nm custom implementation optimized for extreme efficiency. The design is now ready for tape-out to be manufactured in volume at the GLOBALFOUNDRIES fab in Dresden.  
 
This ASIC will be the world’s most energy efficient solution for Bitcoin mining. Based on record-breaking 0.19 W/GH/s at chip level we will realize Bitcoin mining hardware for datacenter usage with a performance of 4.8 TH/s per 19” case and a targeted energy consumption of 0.27 W/GH/s per case.  
 
We will operate this hardware in an own mine. Our target is holding 15% of the global hash rate in 2016 and keeping this percentage long-term.  To finance the setup of this large-scale mining operation the ASICrising GmbH will become CoinBau AG, a German incorporated company, selling shares.  
 
Take the limited offer and subscribe now to shares of CoinBau AG, one of the future Bitcoin mining market leaders!  
 
For more information about the project, please visit: www.coinbau.com  
Or have a look at our Executive Summary. Since I cannot post files, please find it here: https://asicrising.de/asicrising-starts-coinbau-project/
 
 
Dr.-Ing. Markus Winter
CoinBau by ASICrising GmbH
 
ASICrising GmbH  
Eisenstuckstrasse 5
01069 Dresden
Germany  
Handelsregistereintrag (entry in Commercial Register):     HRB 32540
Registergericht (registry court): Dresden
Management: Holger Eisenreich, Sebastian Krause, Dr. Markus Winter

[1713968096]

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[tntdgcr]

Nice enough site , you take physical meetings in Dresden? DE?

[Paxter]

any chance you will sell your used mining rig 

[CanaryInTheMine]

what is your estimate of 15% in 2016?

DRESDEN, GERMANY – ASICrising GmbH has developed the most power efficient mining hardware on the market, we are going to build the most profitable mine. And you can participate. 
 
The ASICrising GmbH will become CoinBau AG, a German incorporated company, selling shares. Your advantages as a shareholder of the mine are: CoinBau will produce its own hardware, avoiding any margins for hardware developers. No selling costs or fees for brokerage as in cloud-hashing scenarios will come up. You will partially own the mine, the hardware, the profit, a constant proportion of the global hash rate with always up-tp-date hardware. We will not make profit as long as you don't. 
 
Seems too good to be true? German engineering makes it possible. We are ASICrising, a high-tech start-up located in Dresden, Germany, the centre of Europe’s largest microelectronic cluster, Silicon Saxony. Founded in July 2013, ASICrising is a team of experienced electronic system engineers, with top expertise in integrated circuit design, PCB design and software development. 
 
We taped-out our 1st generation 28nm Bitcoin mining ASIC in August last year and developed a 1.8 TH/s mining rig based on that. The complete ASIC and rig development as well as the manufacturing of a limited number of engineering samples was completely financed by ourselves. For more information about our hardware and us, have a look at www.asicrising.com.   
 
In the last 6 months, our team of chip design experts has worked hard on the second generation of our ASIC. The result is a 28nm custom implementation optimized for extreme efficiency. The design is now ready for tape-out to be manufactured in volume at the GLOBALFOUNDRIES fab in Dresden.   
 
This ASIC will be the world’s most energy efficient solution for Bitcoin mining. Based on record-breaking 0.19 W/GH/s at chip level we will realize Bitcoin mining hardware for datacenter usage with a performance of 4.8 TH/s per 19” case and a targeted energy consumption of 0.27 W/GH/s per case. 
 
We will operate this hardware in an own mine. Our target is holding 15% of the global hash rate in 2016 and keeping this percentage long-term.  To finance the setup of this large-scale mining operation the ASICrising GmbH will become CoinBau AG, a German incorporated company, selling shares.   
 
Take the limited offer and subscribe now to shares of CoinBau AG, one of the future Bitcoin mining market leaders! 
 
For more information about the project, please visit: www.coinbau.com 
Or have a look at our Executive Summary: cutive_summary_en.pdf]https[Suspicious link removed]cutive_summary_en.pdf
 
 
Dr.-Ing. Markus Winter
CoinBau by ASICrising GmbH
 
ASICrising GmbH 
Eisenstuckstrasse 5
01069 Dresden
Germany 
Handelsregistereintrag (entry in Commercial Register):     HRB 32540
Registergericht (registry court): Dresden
Management: Holger Eisenreich, Sebastian Krause, Dr. Markus Winter

[y_boonstra]

sounds to good to be true

[CanaryInTheMine]

sounds to good to be true

you think???

[RoadStress]

Take the limited offer and subscribe now to shares of CoinBau AG, one of the future Bitcoin mining market leaders! 

I think you are in the wrong forum section. This is the Hardware forum, not Securities.

Here is where you should post your shares announcement: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=78.0

Good luck!

[Markus, CoinBau]

Dear all,

Let me answer your questions:

Nice enough site , you take physical meetings in Dresden? DE?

There will be an open day here in Dresden for all registered persons in about two months.
Besides this, we also take physical meetings by appointment. Please send me a personal message if you are interested in such, with a short description of who you are.

any chance you will sell your used mining rig  

Unfortunately, this is not possible. We have only a very limited number of samples and need them for test and further development issues.

"what is your estimate of 15% in 2016?"
The concrete numbers are internal information which can be discussed only under NDA.
However, I can tell you this: our calculations expect the break of the 1000 PH/s limit within the next 24 months as long as the Bitcoin exchange rate is stable at $500-$600.

@RoadStress: thank you for your hint. I asked the admins to move the thread.


Best regards
Markus

[ducmami]

BFL v2.0

[bitcoinarnold]

This is a nigerian scam unless you can prove that W/Gh/s

[RoadStress]

This is a nigerian scam unless you can prove that W/Gh/s

How can they prove the W/Gh without a physical chip available?

[CanaryInTheMine]

This is a nigerian scam unless you can prove that W/Gh/s

How can they prove the W/Gh without a physical chip available?

So technically, they could make this claim based on simulation...
However, I've seen several chip design teams get burned by simulation

Even a couple current TOP chip producers experienced this...

But this time, it's different, right?

[hashfastisawesome]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XJsHtYCOAt8/UUKDfuXPW8I/AAAAAAAABSo/osAx1GYNcGk/s320/nigerianscam.jpg

ASIC Miner said the same thing....

[RoadStress]

This is a nigerian scam unless you can prove that W/Gh/s

How can they prove the W/Gh without a physical chip available?

So technically, they could make this claim based on simulation...
However, I've seen several chip design teams get burned by simulation

Even a couple current TOP chip producers experienced this...

But this time, it's different, right?

Well they should at least show us a demo of their first gen miners. That shouldn't be a problem, but I don't expect them to show us the simulation results...

[notlist3d]

This is a nigerian scam unless you can prove that W/Gh/s

How can they prove the W/Gh without a physical chip available?

So technically, they could make this claim based on simulation...
However, I've seen several chip design teams get burned by simulation

Even a couple current TOP chip producers experienced this...

But this time, it's different, right?

Well they should at least show us a demo of their first gen miners. That shouldn't be a problem, but I don't expect them to show us the simulation results...

Showing first gen would give more credit.  Even with a simulation the W/Gh is hard to believe currently.  I want it to be true, but i think this is currently not even close possible.

[RoadStress]

Showing first gen would give more credit.  Even with a simulation the W/Gh is hard to believe currently.  I want it to be true, but i think this is currently not even close possible.

Let's not underestimate the power of good designers. I think that technically it is possible, but actually doing it is hard.

[Meech]

Guys, it's a German company!  When has the world ever questioned what they do!  Just kiddin'.
Yes a vid would help.

[Xian01]

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2012/05/are-german-cars-reliable-myth-german-engineering.html

"Likely you’ve heard the phrase “German engineering” more than a few times in your life and there’s a popular misconception that it equals good reliability. German cars are well engineered, sometimes to be amazing performance machines and sometimes to be incredibly high-tech (and often both) but, Porsche aside, German cars don’t have the best track record for reliability."

[Markus, CoinBau]

Hello all,

we know 0.19 J/GH are hard to believe and it is true, concerning our second generation we only have simulation results. For those of you, familiar with hardware design:
we performed a post-Place&Route SDF-annotated simulation of the computation of 500 random hashes of our core. These simulations are pretty close to reality and 500 hash computations are sufficient for a realistic mean power value. The power analysis was performed on the related VCD dump.

Concerning our generation 1 miners:
We do not have any problems showing them hashing. For instance, find a screenshot of one of our miners running at Slush's pool on the following link:
https://asicrising.de/miners-use-case/

We also have a video of one of our gen 1 miners in the lab:
https://asicrising.de/miner-lab/

And here some images of our hardware:

Our basic mining card gen 1 connectable via USB or PCIE
https://asicrising.de/wp-content/uploads/bitcointalk/wolfpack.jpg
https://asicrising.de/wp-content/uploads/bitcointalk/wp_seitlich.jpg

Seven mining cards within one 1st gen 19'' sever case during assembling:
https://asicrising.de/wp-content/uploads/bitcointalk/case_teilweise.jpg

The server case fully assembled:
https://asicrising.de/wp-content/uploads/bitcointalk/case_voll.jpg

10 of our cases packed in a rack:
https://asicrising.de/wp-content/uploads/bitcointalk/Rack.JPG

Best regards,
Markus

[daddyfatsax]

Looks like a nice design. I will happily test a unit.

[jimmothy]

Our basic mining card gen 1 connectable via USB or PCIE


The server case fully assembled:


Best regards,
Markus

Mining Asic Technologies?

[Markus, CoinBau]

Hello jimmothy,

we sold two of our miners to Marc Coumans and MAT about 3 months ago in the context of negotiations with them.

However, the miners were developed and produced by us. As you can see on the picture there is our ASICrising logo on the board. Here is an image of the testboard which we used to test the first samples of our chips:

https://asicrising.de/wp-content/uploads/bitcointalk/testboard.jpg


Best regards
Markus

[RoadStress]

Hello jimmothy,

we sold two of our miners to Marc Coumans and MAT about 3 months ago in the context of negotiations with them.

However, the miners were developed and produced by us. As you can see on the picture there is our ASICrising logo on the board. Here is an image of the testboard which we used to test the first samples of our chips:

Best regards
Markus

Why not show us one gen1 unit running too? I can't believe you only had those 2 units.

[Markus, CoinBau]

Hello RoadStress and all interested,

of course you are right, we did not have only the two cases we sold. A few are left and we took some time to make a movie. See it under following link (I cannot post a movie here direclty):
https://asicrising.de/miner-action/


Here is a miner running:
https://asicrising.de/wp-content/uploads/bitcointalk/vlcsnap_case.jpg

And here the printout of the cgminer running in the case:
https://asicrising.de/wp-content/uploads/bitcointalk/vlcsnap_cgminer.jpg

And finally a screenshot of Slush's pool (older screenshot from different account):
https://asicrising.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/1TH78_pool_screenshot.jpg

Best regards,
Markus

[jekecoin]

How much for a single card?

[ChuckBuck]

So this is not a Hardware announcement, but a chance to have a stake in your company?

Ugh, I thought Bitcoin and all facets of it were supposed to be decentralized.  Now instead of owning and running the miners, we "get a chance to own a shares of the miners they'll sell to the Bitcoin sharks running data centers".

Any chance, you'll ever have resellers for these Wolfblood cards or Wolfcave miners for the hobby miners at home?

[wanna4fun]

they doesn't seems to understand the open way as well as the decentralized point of bitcoin...

[Markus, CoinBau]

Hello,

Due to the noise the miners cause and the energy they consume and which must be cooled we do not expect them to be used in normal households. Instead, in future we expect Bitcoin miners to run in datacenters. This was the base of our CoinBau project: running our Bitcoin miners in datacenters and still offering everybody the chance to participate.
However, we are also open to discussions with potential investors concerning hardware sale or cloud hashing opportunities.

Best regards,
Markus

[Snoop Dogg]

nice interested like old one . maybe you need some electricity and power supply unit
for handle thats  all.

[HyperMega]

DRESDEN, GERMANY – ASICrising GmbH has developed the most power efficient mining hardware on the market, we are going to build the most profitable mine. And you can participate.  

Just had a look at your investment concept. Looks very interesting!
Could you share some more technical information about how you can reach 0.19 J/GH, while existing 28nm ASIC are far away from that?
Which GH/mm2 do you have at this efficiency?

[Markus, CoinBau]

Hello all,

There have been some questions concerning our technology and why we are able to realize a power efficiency others can't. It's time to answer them:

Our hashing core is a fully pipelined architecture whereas our key differentiator is a very area efficient custom pipeline implementation which we developed within the last 6 months based on a so called cell based design approach. We combined standard cells with custom optimized complex cells which save area and power.
Our high density core enabled us to realize much more hashing cores on the same silicon area, running at quite low frequencies. The low performance requirements of a single core allow us to apply an ultra-low supply voltage, which is much lower than the standard at this GLOBALFOUNDRIES 28nm process node. Therefore we optimized and re-characterized our in-house standard cell library for such low supply voltages. To ensure that this will work first-time right, we developed the complete concept of this ultra-low voltage design in close cooperation with the GLOBALFOUNDRIES design enablement team here in Dresden, which has detailed knowledge of the selected 28nm technology produced here in Dresden too.
Our unique design achieves in nominal mode 1.4 GH/mm² and 0.19 J/GH. However, similar to other hardware providers, we can change the frequency of the hashing cores in a high performance mode realizing 2.1 GH/mm² at an energy consumption of about 0.29 J/GH.

If there are any questions to be answered, do not hestitate to ask.

Best regards,
Markus

[cloverme]

The words "tape out" should be banned from this forum... 

[RoadStress]

Hello all,

There have been some questions concerning our technology and why we are able to realize a power efficiency others can't. It's time to answer them:

Our hashing core is a fully pipelined architecture whereas our key differentiator is a very area efficient custom pipeline implementation which we developed within the last 6 months based on a so called cell based design approach. We combined standard cells with custom optimized complex cells which save area and power.
Our high density core enabled us to realize much more hashing cores on the same silicon area, running at quite low frequencies. The low performance requirements of a single core allow us to apply an ultra-low supply voltage, which is much lower than the standard at this GLOBALFOUNDRIES 28nm process node. Therefore we optimized and re-characterized our in-house standard cell library for such low supply voltages. To ensure that this will work first-time right, we developed the complete concept of this ultra-low voltage design in close cooperation with the GLOBALFOUNDRIES design enablement team here in Dresden, which has detailed knowledge of the selected 28nm technology produced here in Dresden too.
Our unique design achieves in nominal mode 1.4 GH/mm² and 0.19 J/GH. However, similar to other hardware providers, we can change the frequency of the hashing cores in a high performance mode realizing 2.1 GH/mm² at an energy consumption of about 0.29 J/GH.

If there are any questions to be answered, do not hestitate to ask.

Best regards,
Markus

When is the tape out?

[CryptKeeper]

Wow, a company like Spondoolies-Tech in my neighbourhood!

Seems legit, but caveat emptor as always. Lots of risks involved.

They seem to avoid the high power costs in germany by moving the miners to foreign datacenters (they used one in iceland for their 1st-gen miners).

I'm interested. 

[dentro]

I would be interested how high your initial hardware costs are? Your W/Gh/s ratio sounds good but if they cost 2$/gh/s to manufacture it would be worthless..

[im0rtel]

my dear mister markus, i would be interested in purchasing some of your asic boards . do not underestimate the market of the masses . orientating yourself torwards only your personal farm would be , at this point , a bad idea since you have alot of competition that has private farms for years now. the real money is in selling your miners at a competitive price on the market . i would love to see a video product presentation and a way to purchase your miners directly from your site. thank you .

[Markus, CoinBau]

Hello all,

the development of the miners is done, so we can and will do tape-out as soon as we have collected the required money. As I've already mentioned, we are open for discussions about selling hardware. But these discussions are only possible with potential investors since we cannot start production without the necessary capital.
Though our concrete production costs are business internal data we can state, the GH/s will cost less than $1 in production.

Once more for all who are interested in investment or our hardware: do not hesitate to contact us via email: krause@coinbau.com
There we will be able to provide you more information or discuss your requests.
 
By the way, it is hard to talk about ASICs without the word 'tape-out' 

Best regards,
Markus

[Biffa]

Hello all,

the development of the miners is done, so we can and will do tape-out as soon as we have collected the required money. As I've already mentioned, we are open for discussions about selling hardware. But these discussions are only possible with potential investors since we cannot start production without the necessary capital.
Though our concrete production costs are business internal data we can state, the GH/s will cost less than $1 in production.

Once more for all who are interested in investment or our hardware: do not hesitate to contact us via email: krause@coinbau.com
There we will be able to provide you more information or discuss your requests.
 
By the way, it is hard to talk about ASICs without the word 'tape-out' 

Best regards,
Markus

So.. $1/GH/s production cost or expected retail cost?

[HyperMega]

Hello all,

There have been some questions concerning our technology and why we are able to realize a power efficiency others can't. It's time to answer them:

Our hashing core is a fully pipelined architecture whereas our key differentiator is a very area efficient custom pipeline implementation which we developed within the last 6 months based on a so called cell based design approach. We combined standard cells with custom optimized complex cells which save area and power.
Our high density core enabled us to realize much more hashing cores on the same silicon area, running at quite low frequencies. The low performance requirements of a single core allow us to apply an ultra-low supply voltage, which is much lower than the standard at this GLOBALFOUNDRIES 28nm process node. Therefore we optimized and re-characterized our in-house standard cell library for such low supply voltages. To ensure that this will work first-time right, we developed the complete concept of this ultra-low voltage design in close cooperation with the GLOBALFOUNDRIES design enablement team here in Dresden, which has detailed knowledge of the selected 28nm technology produced here in Dresden too.
Our unique design achieves in nominal mode 1.4 GH/mm² and 0.19 J/GH. However, similar to other hardware providers, we can change the frequency of the hashing cores in a high performance mode realizing 2.1 GH/mm² at an energy consumption of about 0.29 J/GH.

If there are any questions to be answered, do not hestitate to ask.

Best regards,
Markus

Thanks Markus,

You also give some specification about your 3rd gen 14nm ASIC in your investment document. 
Do you really think it is feasible to reach 0.08 J/GH with 14nm? How was this estimation done?

[Bicknellski]

Keen on seeing this come out.

What is the total investment you require to get this produced?

[dentro]

I read in your pager that you are planning to pay no dividends till the end of the third year. I also so a lot of numbers about profits etc., but what your expected annual rate of return for an investor for the 3., 4. and the 5. year? How much do you payout to your investors after the third year?

For everbody who is interested -> https://coinbau.com/files/cb_investment_brochure_web_en.pdf

[Markus, CoinBau]

Hello,

we expect less than $1 per GH/s retail costs and even less production costs based on our experience with our generation 1 miners.

The annual general meeting of all shareholders decides on the dividend payout based on the achieved profit, so we cannot preset the dividend payouts now. However, we would like to pay 50% of the profit (in our scenario these are about 10 million US dollar) as dividend to the shareholders after year 3. The rest we want to use for reinvestments. In the following years the profit and dividend payout will be even higher - assumed Bitcoin stays at least stable.
We know, we will require two years to build up the mine by reinvestment of the mined Bitcoins in order to achieve significant market share. That's the reason for no dividend payout in the first two years.

In order to build up the mine with a reasonable growth rate our calculations recommend a total of 15 million US dollar. We can also start with 10 million US dollar but in that case, the groth rate is much smaller and significantly less dividend payout will be possible after year 3.

Best regards,
Markus

[RoadStress]

I find 3 years a very long period in the Bitcoin ecosystem.

[Easy2Mine]

And where in Europe are you going to build your mine?

[Markus, CoinBau]

Hi,

up to now Bitcoin has been a very volatile business, an effect we find in many extremely new business fields like the internet in 90s. But we expect the Bitcoin to consolidate and stablilize. We want to support the Bitcoin in this stabilization and want to be a long-term part of the ecosystem. We believe in Bitcoin and we hope others do as well.

The company will be a German one and its headquarters will be in Dresden. The datacenter where the miners are physically located will be in other countries, e.g. in Iceland as our generation 1 miners, due to much lower power costs.

Best regards,
Markus

[Easy2Mine]

What are the temperature of the chips of each cards?

[Markus, CoinBau]

Our chips work between 60°C and 80°C depending in their speed grade, the adjusted fan speed and their position on the board.

Markus

[dentro]

Hello,

we expect less than $1 per GH/s retail costs and even less production costs based on our experience with our generation 1 miners.

The annual general meeting of all shareholders decides on the dividend payout based on the achieved profit, so we cannot preset the dividend payouts now. However, we would like to pay 50% of the profit (in our scenario these are about 10 million US dollar) as dividend to the shareholders after year 3. The rest we want to use for reinvestments. In the following years the profit and dividend payout will be even higher - assumed Bitcoin stays at least stable.
We know, we will require two years to build up the mine by reinvestment of the mined Bitcoins in order to achieve significant market share. That's the reason for no dividend payout in the first two years.

In order to build up the mine with a reasonable growth rate our calculations recommend a total of 15 million US dollar. We can also start with 10 million US dollar but in that case, the groth rate is much smaller and significantly less dividend payout will be possible after year 3.

Best regards,
Markus

So because you only issue 50% of your shares to you shareholders, which would invest 15 million in total, that means if I invest 10'000$ I would receive 3333$ as dividend in your example right? will I be able / allowed to sell me shares?

[brontosaurus]

Hello all,

There have been some questions concerning our technology and why we are able to realize a power efficiency others can't. It's time to answer them:

Our hashing core is a fully pipelined architecture whereas our key differentiator is a very area efficient custom pipeline implementation which we developed within the last 6 months based on a so called cell based design approach. We combined standard cells with custom optimized complex cells which save area and power.
Our high density core enabled us to realize much more hashing cores on the same silicon area, running at quite low frequencies. The low performance requirements of a single core allow us to apply an ultra-low supply voltage, which is much lower than the standard at this GLOBALFOUNDRIES 28nm process node. Therefore we optimized and re-characterized our in-house standard cell library for such low supply voltages. To ensure that this will work first-time right, we developed the complete concept of this ultra-low voltage design in close cooperation with the GLOBALFOUNDRIES design enablement team here in Dresden, which has detailed knowledge of the selected 28nm technology produced here in Dresden too.
Our unique design achieves in nominal mode 1.4 GH/mm² and 0.19 J/GH. However, similar to other hardware providers, we can change the frequency of the hashing cores in a high performance mode realizing 2.1 GH/mm² at an energy consumption of about 0.29 J/GH.

If there are any questions to be answered, do not hestitate to ask.

Best regards,
Markus

Much though I hate to sound like a party pooper, running in sub threshold mode is nothing new or innovative, it's an idea that's been around for decades and used in many commercial chips. It's the basic principle used in the Bitfury asics.

Low energy useage is fine, but it slows your system down considerably. To get the highest hashing speed (and hence earnings) if you're getting cheap energy then it makes much more sense to go faster unless your hardware is very cheap. Your own figures show that for a nominal die size you would need 1.5 times as much area to get the same hashing speed per second in nominal mode versus high performance mode, and so it would take the same amount of energy except you need to buy more die space!

[brontosaurus]

Forgot to add, if we take your 'nominal' chip speed as 100GH/s, as per your website, and your GH/mm² () as 1.4, then your core chip size would be 70mm², or approximately 79 mm² die size, yes? Also means the chip has to dissipate 19W, but that's entirely feasible.

For that hashrate versus die area in 28nm, it suggests strongly that your chip isn't full custom at all, it's more likely a regular standard cell implementation. 70 mm² gives a rough 'equivalent' gate count of around 115M allowing for your control circuit. Divided that by the 450k gate equivalents needed per pipeline means there are, surpirise, surprise 256 pipelines per chip.

To get your 100GH/sec it needs to run at 400 MHz, which for 28nm means you're either being ultra conservative in your chip timing, it's a really bad design - which I doubt - or it's running sub threshold which is absolutely fine, of course, but these calculations are based on standard designs.

In short, you're asking your investors to pay for the NRE & production of a chip which on the face of it doesn't offer any real advantage over solutions that are available from competitors.

Possibly I'm missing something here?

[HyperMega]

Forgot to add, if we take your 'nominal' chip speed as 100GH/s, as per your website, and your GH/mm² () as 1.4, then your core chip size would be 70mm², or approximately 79 mm² die size, yes? Also means the chip has to dissipate 19W, but that's entirely feasible.

For that hashrate versus die area in 28nm, it suggests strongly that your chip isn't full custom at all, it's more likely a regular standard cell implementation. 70 mm² gives a rough 'equivalent' gate count of around 115M allowing for your control circuit. Divided that by the 450k gate equivalents needed per pipeline means there are, surpirise, surprise 256 pipelines per chip.

To get your 100GH/sec it needs to run at 400 MHz, which for 28nm means you're either being ultra conservative in your chip timing, it's a really bad design - which I doubt - or it's running sub threshold which is absolutely fine, of course, but these calculations are based on standard designs.

In short, you're asking your investors to pay for the NRE & production of a chip which on the face of it doesn't offer any real advantage over solutions that are available from competitors.

Possibly I'm missing something here?

Very nice analysis, seams feasible. Sorry, maybe I missed something, but I don't know a competitor who offers 0.19 J/GH at 1.4 GH/mm2. Source?

[HorseRider]

What have stopped you from ordering more wafers of Gen1 design from GF and produce more miners during the last eight months? Even if you were doing MPW for Gen1, you have the time to make profit from Gen1 design.

[dogie]

What have stopped you from ordering more wafers of Gen1 design from GF and produce more miners during the last eight months? Even if you were doing MPW for Gen1, you have the time to make profit from Gen1 design.

This atm. If even after successful tapeout of the new gen you're only able to retail for $1/GH, why stop with what yo had so early?

[Markus, CoinBau]

Hello all,

CoinBau will be German Incorporated Company (Aktiengesellschaft): its shares are freely tradeable but not at stock exchange. So, yes, with an investment of $10,000 you can get a dividend payout after year 3 (and in each following year) of about $3300 plus the grown value of the shares.

About the technical stuff:
We never said we have a full custom implementation. In fact it is a combination of standard cell and few important special cells which were customly optimized.
Two factors are relevant for economical success of a miner: the acquisition costs in $/GH/s and the operational costs depending on J/GH. The goal is the optimization of the complete miner: bring as much hash power as possible into one case which can be supplied with a standard PSU at reasonable costs. The goal is not to have the fastest chip, not to have the biggest GH/mm². The die prize is only one part and not even the biggest of the production costs. Thus, economically it is better to put a few mm² of silicon more onto the PCB, run it at lowest possible voltage (voltage is quadratic in power consumption) resulting in very low energy consumption per GH. The quadratic influence of voltage on power is pretty important because raising voltage for higher frequency results in more energy consumption per GH. So, it ends up in a trade-off between additional energy costs (high frequency and voltage) or additional silicon area costs. We calculated a lot and since the silicon is only part of the production costs we came to the conclution it is better to utilize more silicon area and reduce energy costs.
So, I only can ask: do you know a competitor offering 0.19 J/GH at less than $1/GH/s?

Additionally: by investing into CoinBau you save all margins for hardware sellers or cloudhashing brokers for your own rate of return.

In an MPW run you have only a few chips per wafer and, thus, the costs per chip are pretty high and dominate everything. Since the production of a wafer takes 2 months or more, in March or April we wouldn't have been able to get a return of investment with this first gen hardware. We would have needed a full mask tapeout but did not want to waste the money on an old technology when our 2nd generation was nearly final.

Best regards,
Markus

[HyperMega]

What have stopped you from ordering more wafers of Gen1 design from GF and produce more miners during the last eight months? Even if you were doing MPW for Gen1, you have the time to make profit from Gen1 design.

If it were an MPW, the answer is quite easy.
An MPW wafer normally contains only one of your dies per reticle. In this case they would have not more than 200 working dies from one wafer.
Taking the price of an 28nm wafer of about $6k (probably much more in low volume), they would have a price of more than $3 per GH/s for their gen1 for the pure silicon.

[HyperMega]

Hello all,

CoinBau will be German Incorporated Company (Aktiengesellschaft): its shares are freely tradeable but not at stock exchange. So, yes, with an investment of $10,000 you can get a dividend payout after year 3 (and in each following year) of about $3300 plus the grown value of the shares.

About the technical stuff:
We never said we have a full custom implementation. In fact it is a combination of standard cell and few important special cells which were customly optimized.
Two factors are relevant for economical success of a miner: the acquisition costs in $/GH/s and the operational costs depending on J/GH. The goal is the optimization of the complete miner: bring as much hash power as possible into one case which can be supplied with a standard PSU at reasonable costs. The goal is not to have the fastest chip, not to have the biggest GH/mm². The die prize is only one part and not even the biggest of the production costs. Thus, economically it is better to put a few mm² of silicon more onto the PCB, run it at lowest possible voltage (voltage is quadratic in power consumption) resulting in very low energy consumption per GH. The quadratic influence of voltage on power is pretty important because raising voltage for higher frequency results in more energy consumption per GH. So, it ends up in a trade-off between additional energy costs (high frequency and voltage) or additional silicon area costs. We calculated a lot and since the silicon is only part of the production costs we came to the conclution it is better to utilize more silicon area and reduce energy costs.
So, I only can ask: do you know a competitor offering 0.19 J/GH at less than $1/GH/s?

Additionally: by investing into CoinBau you save all margins for hardware sellers or cloudhashing brokers for your own rate of return.

In an MPW run you have only a few chips per wafer and, thus, the costs per chip are pretty high and dominate everything. Since the production of a wafer takes 2 months or more, in March or April we wouldn't have been able to get a return of investment with this first gen hardware. We would have needed a full mask tapeout but did not want to waste the money on an old technology when our 2nd generation was nearly final.

Best regards,
Markus

Sorry Marcus, if I got you right, you said that you are currently not planning to enter the retail market. Instead you want to run your gen2 hardware in a mine owned and operated by Coinbau. Right?

In this case I’m not interested in a retail price, because this is something determined by supply and demand finally.
Your marginal productions costs are much more important! This is what Coinbau has to invest per GH/s. Combined with your J/GH it makes the difference between a good or a bad investment.

Seeing leading competitors selling for less than $1 per GH/s, I’m assuming that their marginal production costs are at least less than $0.50. Can you reach the same dimensions with your gen2 hardware?

[brontosaurus]

Forgot to add, if we take your 'nominal' chip speed as 100GH/s, as per your website, and your GH/mm² () as 1.4, then your core chip size would be 70mm², or approximately 79 mm² die size, yes? Also means the chip has to dissipate 19W, but that's entirely feasible.

For that hashrate versus die area in 28nm, it suggests strongly that your chip isn't full custom at all, it's more likely a regular standard cell implementation. 70 mm² gives a rough 'equivalent' gate count of around 115M allowing for your control circuit. Divided that by the 450k gate equivalents needed per pipeline means there are, surpirise, surprise 256 pipelines per chip.

To get your 100GH/sec it needs to run at 400 MHz, which for 28nm means you're either being ultra conservative in your chip timing, it's a really bad design - which I doubt - or it's running sub threshold which is absolutely fine, of course, but these calculations are based on standard designs.

In short, you're asking your investors to pay for the NRE & production of a chip which on the face of it doesn't offer any real advantage over solutions that are available from competitors.

Possibly I'm missing something here?

Very nice analysis, seams feasible. Sorry, maybe I missed something, but I don't know a competitor who offers 0.19 J/GH at 1.4 GH/mm2. Source?

This is a forum for this manufacturer so I don't think it's ethical to quote other peoples work, but if you're curious why not ask some of the current 28nm based suppliers to give some data on what their chips run at in sub threshold? I think you might be surprised. The GH/mm² is a useless metric in my opinion, the only reason used it was because Coinbau did - you can only base analysis on data a manufacturer gives you.

[HyperMega]

This is a forum for this manufacturer so I don't think it's ethical to quote other peoples work, but if you're curious why not ask some of the current 28nm based suppliers to give some data on what their chips run at in sub threshold? I think you might be surprised. The GH/mm² is a useless metric in my opinion, the only reason used it was because Coinbau did - you can only base analysis on data a manufacturer gives you.

No offence, but isn’t the GH/s/mm² metric not directly related to the production costs of the pure silicon in terms of $/GH?
From my understanding, e.g. somebody who is able to realize 0.19 J/GH @ 0.7 GH/s/mm² in 28nm (instead of 1.4 GH/s/mm²) would have to pay roughly twice the $/GH/s price for the ASIC die.

With respect to the main competitor 28nm ASICs I see here a design which will have almost the same $/GH/s price in production (if they could really realize this specification), while only consuming half of the energy. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
 

[brontosaurus]

This is a forum for this manufacturer so I don't think it's ethical to quote other peoples work, but if you're curious why not ask some of the current 28nm based suppliers to give some data on what their chips run at in sub threshold? I think you might be surprised. The GH/mm² is a useless metric in my opinion, the only reason used it was because Coinbau did - you can only base analysis on data a manufacturer gives you.

No offence, but isn’t the GH/s/mm² metric not directly related to the production costs of the pure silicon in terms of $/GH?
From my understanding, e.g. somebody who is able to realize 0.19 J/GH @ 0.7 GH/s/mm² in 28nm (instead of 1.4 GH/s/mm²) would have to pay roughly twice the $/GH/s price for the ASIC die.

With respect to the main competitor 28nm ASICs I see here a design which will have almost the same $/GH/s price in production (if they could really realize this specification), while only consuming half of the energy. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
 

No, you are quite correct but my point (which to be honest I didn't really make clearly) is that a standard design, which this clearly is from the die size, has no chance whatsoever of achieving 0.19J/GH. I think it more likely to be nearly twice that amount, possibly more depending on the 'cell' library they've used.

If it was true full custom, it would achieve 0.19 without difficulty, experienced custom guys could get it down a good bit further, probably nearer 0.13

[rocks]

Glad to see the focus on designing the lowest power chips, in the long run these are the only ASICs that will succeed. That said the J/GH/s ratio is only one part of what is required. The other significant factor is finding locations in low electricity cost regions.

For example if you have a chip twice as efficient but located in a region with electricity costs three times higher than lower cost regions, you are still at a disadvantage. Take California, we pay $.35/KW in the upper tier while other states to our north pay around $.07/KW, which is more than a 4x difference. Germany and the EU also have high electricity costs.

So assuming you build these, where are you sourcing your datacenter locations? Finding low cost electricity is just as important as chip design, but there are a limited number of fixed options to find the best spots globally.

[stompysteve]

I find 3 years a very long period in the Bitcoin ecosystem.

3 months sounds more reasonable....

[cedivad]

So you want $15M to tapeout a new fantastic chip that will run at less than 0.2J/GH and will have an online cost of less than $1/GH. Fine, I can believe that.

The problem is that you want to take 15% of the market with it. How? As of now 15% of it is 30PH, and will be possibly 60PH by the time you are ready. By considering an online cost far lower than $1/GH ($0.5/GH), you would have to spend $30M...

How?

[HyperMega]

So you want $15M to tapeout a new fantastic chip that will run at less than 0.2J/GH and will have an online cost of less than $1/GH. Fine, I can believe that.

The problem is that you want to take 15% of the market with it. How? As of now 15% of it is 30PH, and will be possibly 60PH by the time you are ready. By considering an online cost far lower than $1/GH ($0.5/GH), you would have to spend $30M...

How?

They explain it here https://coinbau.com/files/cb_investment_brochure_web_en.pdf

Short version
- $15M for tape-out and first batches of 2nd gen miners
- reinvest mining profit to produce additional 2nd gen hardware to reach/keep 15%
- reinvest mining profit to develop and produce 14nm 3rd gen hardware

[cedivad]

To have mining profits, you need to have hardware. You don't have spare cash for hardware, and lowering the J/GH isn't a silver bullet, so I don't see what this magic plan is all about.

[HyperMega]

To have mining profits, you need to have hardware. You don't have spare cash for hardware, and lowering the J/GH isn't a silver bullet, so I don't see what this magic plan is all about.

I guess you are assuming that the tape-out costs for 28nm are about $15M?
Sorry, but these costs should not be higher than $2.5M. So they would still have $12.5M to produce probably more than 20PH with the raised money. Or did I get something wrong?

[cedivad]

Well, yes. That is the reasonable estimate everyone keeps repeating. hashfastisawesome spent 8M only for the tapeout, but that's another story (and I was confused by it).

Anyway the problem still stand: you won't get 15% of the market starting with the returns of 10PHs (that at this point I assume are paid for).

[jimmothy]

To have mining profits, you need to have hardware. You don't have spare cash for hardware, and lowering the J/GH isn't a silver bullet, so I don't see what this magic plan is all about.

I guess you are assuming that the tape-out costs for 28nm are about $15M?
Sorry, but these costs should not be higher than $2.5M. So they would still have $12.5M to produce probably more than 20PH with the raised money. Or did I get something wrong?

If production costs are $1/gh how can they produce/deploy 20ph for $12m?

I'm surprised so many people are assuming this is a legit company based on the lousy proof provided. I wouldn't be surprised if this was an offshoot of the MAT scam.

I think most people just don't care enough to demand they prove their company is legit because the offer is so lousy.

[HyperMega]

Well, yes. That is the reasonable estimate everyone keeps repeating. hashfastisawesome spent 8M only for the tapeout, but that's another story (and I was confused by it).

Anyway the problem still stand: you won't get 15% of the market starting with the returns of 10PHs (that at this point I assume are paid for).

They are saying that they made a concrete plan how to reach 15% based on worst case assumptions for development of the global hashrate and the BTC exchange rate. There are not much details about that in their investment document. If you want to know more, you have probably to contact them directly.

[HyperMega]

To have mining profits, you need to have hardware. You don't have spare cash for hardware, and lowering the J/GH isn't a silver bullet, so I don't see what this magic plan is all about.

I guess you are assuming that the tape-out costs for 28nm are about $15M?
Sorry, but these costs should not be higher than $2.5M. So they would still have $12.5M to produce probably more than 20PH with the raised money. Or did I get something wrong?

If production costs are $1/gh how can they produce/deploy 20ph for $12m?

I'm surprised so many people are assuming this is a legit company based on the lousy proof provided. I wouldn't be surprised if this was an offshoot of the MAT scam.

I think most people just don't care enough to demand they prove their company is legit because the offer is so lousy.

Marcus said that a potential retail price would be below $1/GH, but they are currently not planning to go to the retail market.
So far he said nothing about their productions costs.
My personal opinion is, it would not make sense to start such a project with production costs above $0.5, because than they would not be competitive even with a much better energy efficiency.

[HorseRider]

THIS IS A SCAM AS OP IS LYING

The OP stated that he is doing MPW, but he present us a full rack of miners.

MPW will only provides tens of chips, which is not enough for build so many miners.

If the OP is capable of doing a full rack of miners, he must be doing a full mask. he would have been able to produce thousands of miners.

Even if OP has taped out the MPW and get back the sample chips, we are pretty sure that he will scam his minority shareholders without any mercy as he are now using untruthful evidence to attract investment.

[RoadStress]

Plus the fact that we already had promises from BITMINE.ch for a 0.3W/GH and we all know how that ended up.

[FUKT]

As someone who in early March visited Holger and Sebastian I can honestly say these guys are the future of Bitcoin mining. Most companies will promise you the sun and everything under it, what surprised me about Asicrising but was what they didn't promise. They didn't make promises with regard to delivery, or speed and power, but rather they were very conservative, they would rather be honest than promise the earth.

I decided about 3 months ago to abandon my own endeavours in buying and investing bitcoin hardware but if I had to choose a company and team; Asicrising would be No.1 on my list

[FUKT]

THIS IS A SCAM AS OP IS LYING

The OP stated that he is doing MPW, but he present us a full rack of miners.

MPW will only provides tens of chips, which is not enough for build so many miners.

If the OP is capable of doing a full rack of miners, he must be doing a full mask. he would have been able to produce thousands of miners.

Even if OP has taped out the MPW and get back the sample chips, we are pretty sure that he will scam his minority shareholders without any mercy as he are now using untruthful evidence to attract investment.

I have actually seen these miners first hand (noisy as fuck), if you read their posts fully you would understand that they taped out and implemented miners in August last year on their gen1 designs. The veracity of your post indicates either a vested interest in calling asicrising liars or you are off your meds.

[brontosaurus]

THIS IS A SCAM AS OP IS LYING

The OP stated that he is doing MPW, but he present us a full rack of miners.

MPW will only provides tens of chips, which is not enough for build so many miners.

If the OP is capable of doing a full rack of miners, he must be doing a full mask. he would have been able to produce thousands of miners.

Even if OP has taped out the MPW and get back the sample chips, we are pretty sure that he will scam his minority shareholders without any mercy as he are now using untruthful evidence to attract investment.

In a MPW run you can choose to buy extra sites on the die or extra wafers to get more chips. For a limited production run it makes a lot of sense.

Do you really have to adopt this tone and attack a third party when you're own knowledge is clearly lacking? Although I have my doubts about the ability of this company to produce a chip with the power consumption they claim and have concerns about the validity of their business plan I certainly wouldn't call them a scam and I think anyone that does so is either incredibly ignorant or simply doesn't want new companies to get a chance to compete.

[HorseRider]

THIS IS A SCAM AS OP IS LYING

The OP stated that he is doing MPW, but he present us a full rack of miners.

MPW will only provides tens of chips, which is not enough for build so many miners.

If the OP is capable of doing a full rack of miners, he must be doing a full mask. he would have been able to produce thousands of miners.

Even if OP has taped out the MPW and get back the sample chips, we are pretty sure that he will scam his minority shareholders without any mercy as he are now using untruthful evidence to attract investment.

In a MPW run you can choose to buy extra sites on the die or extra wafers to get more chips. For a limited production run it makes a lot of sense.

Do you really have to adopt this tone and attack a third party when you're own knowledge is clearly lacking? Although I have my doubts about the ability of this company to produce a chip with the power consumption they claim and have concerns about the validity of their business plan I certainly wouldn't call them a scam and I think anyone that does so is either incredibly ignorant or simply doesn't want new companies to get a chance to compete.

You are not aware of the expensiveness of extra sites to support a full rack of miners. MPW will cost you less in tapeout, but no one who want to use thousands of chips will get the chip supplied by "extra site".
 
You are an obvious example of why so many people get scammed.

Holly shit that they can do a 0.6J/GH chip in the last year and they would not do it in this year, if they have full mask in hands.

[HorseRider]

In an MPW run you have only a few chips per wafer and, thus, the costs per chip are pretty high and dominate everything. Since the production of a wafer takes 2 months or more, in March or April we wouldn't have been able to get a return of investment with this first gen hardware. We would have needed a full mask tapeout but did not want to waste the money on an old technology when our 2nd generation was nearly final.

Best regards,
Markus

How many gen-1 chip used in the 1.8TH/s machine?
How many 1.8TH/s machines you have made?
What is the die size of gen-1 chip?
How many chips have you get back from your MPW run?
You tape out in August and you have the chip in hands in the early of this year, why not make a full mask? It will get the investment returned if you tape out full mask in the Jan or Feb. Are OP's team smart enough to make the chips but stupid enough cannot calculate an ROI?

Those 1.8TH/s miners built in rack have to be out of a full mask production. However, OP don't have the access to the full mask.

I repeat, this project is a scam.

[FUKT]

In an MPW run you have only a few chips per wafer and, thus, the costs per chip are pretty high and dominate everything. Since the production of a wafer takes 2 months or more, in March or April we wouldn't have been able to get a return of investment with this first gen hardware. We would have needed a full mask tapeout but did not want to waste the money on an old technology when our 2nd generation was nearly final.

Best regards,
Markus

How many gen-1 chip used in the 1.8TH/s machine?
How many 1.8TH/s machines you have made?
What is the die size of gen-1 chip?
How many chips have you get back from your MPW run?
You tape out in August and you have the chip in hands in the early of this year, why not make a full mask? It will get the investment returned if you tape out full mask in the Jan or Feb. Are OP's team smart enough to make the chips but stupid enough cannot calculate an ROI?

Those 1.8TH/s miners built in rack have to be out of a full mask production. However, OP don't have the access to the full mask.

I repeat, this project is a scam.

Dude youre retarded, I urge everyone to ignore this shitposter, he/she is just another armchair expert with a obvious chip (no pun intended) on shoulder.

To clarify their August Gen1 chips have nothing to do with masks, speed, power as advertised in this thread. These were obviously stated as 28nm first gen chips (which is amusing since another company claims to be the first with 28nm implementation), horserider is clearly austistic.

[cedivad]

While you are clearly unbiased, meh.
This really feels like the beginning of another HashFast thread.

[HyperMega]

In an MPW run you have only a few chips per wafer and, thus, the costs per chip are pretty high and dominate everything. Since the production of a wafer takes 2 months or more, in March or April we wouldn't have been able to get a return of investment with this first gen hardware. We would have needed a full mask tapeout but did not want to waste the money on an old technology when our 2nd generation was nearly final.

Best regards,
Markus

How many gen-1 chip used in the 1.8TH/s machine?
How many 1.8TH/s machines you have made?
What is the die size of gen-1 chip?
How many chips have you get back from your MPW run?
You tape out in August and you have the chip in hands in the early of this year, why not make a full mask? It will get the investment returned if you tape out full mask in the Jan or Feb. Are OP's team smart enough to make the chips but stupid enough cannot calculate an ROI?

Those 1.8TH/s miners built in rack have to be out of a full mask production. However, OP don't have the access to the full mask.

I repeat, this project is a scam.

Sorry, I didn’t get your point here. What are you trying to say?
They are lying and already had a full mask for their gen1 but were not competent enough to make money with it? Because otherwise they would not need to search for investors to build up >20 PH large scale mine?
Or do you mean that the gen1 chips are not from them?

An ASICrising gen 1 machine contains about 196 gen 1 ASICs. This is public for anybody, just have a look on their website.
For e.g. 15 prototypes they would need 3000 samples. The die size of an 10 GH/s 28nm ASIC should not be larger than 9mm2, otherwise it would be a very bad design. I guess you know that.

I’m not an expert for 28nm prices, but I know from older technologies, that a small MPW contribution including 3000 samples is much cheaper than a full mask set.

Anyway, wasn’t there recently another hardware manufacturer who raised more than $20M to build up a large scale mine? Why did they do that although their gen 1 hardware was very successful?

[trek27]

First payouts after 3 years?
I'm not sure if it's legit or not and if legit then competent enough to deliver but 3 years sounds to me like an epoch.
I have merely scant idea (if any at all) what bitcoin ecosystem will look like in three years from now. So, plain and simple, just stopped to analyse. Good luck.

[brontosaurus]

Here's the FACTS on MPW.

You buy a 'site' on the wafer and it's cost depends on your chip size. You get charged for a standard sized block, for 28nm it's about $9k per square mm, but you need to buy a minimum size usually in multiples of about 10 mm². This gets you 100 die.

If your chip is 30 mm² you need to buy 3 sites. You could then buy a further 3 sites and double up the design, ie get 200 die per wafer. It's expensive to do this for production, but not for a trial run: a full mask set will set you back just under $2m depending on how hard you can negotiate. If you need 1000 chips at 30mm² then your NRE is roughly 3 x 10 x $9k, $270k for a single site and then you can buy 9 additional wafers, each with 100 die for about $15k each. Your total cost is then $405k.

People do get deals though. Depends on how heavily loaded the MPW runs are.

This aside, I have severe doubts about the viability of their business plan, but that does not mean they should be called scammers.

I also have severe doubts that the sheep who follow the Asicminer banner (and their desire to 'distribute the hashrate' by piling thousands of Petahashes into the  network) are living in the same reality as others and while AM is clearly not a scam, their business proposition is much. much worse than what Coinbau is offering.

[jimmothy]

I also have severe doubts that the sheep who follow the Asicminer banner (and their desire to 'distribute the hashrate' by piling thousands of Petahashes into the  network) are living in the same reality as others and while AM is clearly not a scam, their business proposition is much. much worse than what Coinbau is offering.

As a sheep following the asicminer banner I can assure you that the goal is not to "distribute the hashrate". The goal is to dominate the network and crush the competition.

I'm not sure how asicminer is offering a bad business proposition. They already completed their IPO almost 2 years ago and paid it back ~6 times over. I don't think there are any bitcoin investments that even compare.

Coinbau is offering basically the same thing as asicminer besides having a much more halfassed business proposition with a bunch of promises and hardware which has only been seen by the scammers at MAT.

Also asicminer asked for ~$200,000. Coinbau is asking for $15 million...

[Collider]

I guess nobody would pre-order another miner in the current market, especially if there is no working prototype or previously established trust in the company.

So sorry if you are indeed trying to build a reputable business, but you are most likely too late to the game.

[HorseRider]

In an MPW run you have only a few chips per wafer and, thus, the costs per chip are pretty high and dominate everything. Since the production of a wafer takes 2 months or more, in March or April we wouldn't have been able to get a return of investment with this first gen hardware. We would have needed a full mask tapeout but did not want to waste the money on an old technology when our 2nd generation was nearly final.

Best regards,
Markus

How many gen-1 chip used in the 1.8TH/s machine?
How many 1.8TH/s machines you have made?
What is the die size of gen-1 chip?
How many chips have you get back from your MPW run?
You tape out in August and you have the chip in hands in the early of this year, why not make a full mask? It will get the investment returned if you tape out full mask in the Jan or Feb. Are OP's team smart enough to make the chips but stupid enough cannot calculate an ROI?

Those 1.8TH/s miners built in rack have to be out of a full mask production. However, OP don't have the access to the full mask.

I repeat, this project is a scam.

Dude youre retarded, I urge everyone to ignore this shitposter, he/she is just another armchair expert with a obvious chip (no pun intended) on shoulder.

To clarify their August Gen1 chips have nothing to do with masks, speed, power as advertised in this thread. These were obviously stated as 28nm first gen chips (which is amusing since another company claims to be the first with 28nm implementation), horserider is clearly austistic.

FUCKER FUKT,

Every investment decision should be based on the team you are going to invest. This team is lying about the Gen1 chips. They are lying.

[HorseRider]

Here's the FACTS on MPW.

You buy a 'site' on the wafer and it's cost depends on your chip size. You get charged for a standard sized block, for 28nm it's about $9k per square mm, but you need to buy a minimum size usually in multiples of about 10 mm². This gets you 100 die.

If your chip is 30 mm² you need to buy 3 sites. You could then buy a further 3 sites and double up the design, ie get 200 die per wafer. It's expensive to do this for production, but not for a trial run: a full mask set will set you back just under $2m depending on how hard you can negotiate. If you need 1000 chips at 30mm² then your NRE is roughly 3 x 10 x $9k, $270k for a single site and then you can buy 9 additional wafers, each with 100 die for about $15k each. Your total cost is then $405k.

People do get deals though. Depends on how heavily loaded the MPW runs are.

This aside, I have severe doubts about the viability of their business plan, but that does not mean they should be called scammers.

I also have severe doubts that the sheep who follow the Asicminer banner (and their desire to 'distribute the hashrate' by piling thousands of Petahashes into the  network) are living in the same reality as others and while AM is clearly not a scam, their business proposition is much. much worse than what Coinbau is offering.

Fine, get back 200 die is still a small investment. The real question is, how many chips are been assembled into that rack of machines?  That isa bout three thousands. MPW run will not get back three thousands samples but only tens of it.

[HyperMega]

Here's the FACTS on MPW.

You buy a 'site' on the wafer and it's cost depends on your chip size. You get charged for a standard sized block, for 28nm it's about $9k per square mm, but you need to buy a minimum size usually in multiples of about 10 mm². This gets you 100 die.

If your chip is 30 mm² you need to buy 3 sites. You could then buy a further 3 sites and double up the design, ie get 200 die per wafer. It's expensive to do this for production, but not for a trial run: a full mask set will set you back just under $2m depending on how hard you can negotiate. If you need 1000 chips at 30mm² then your NRE is roughly 3 x 10 x $9k, $270k for a single site and then you can buy 9 additional wafers, each with 100 die for about $15k each. Your total cost is then $405k.

People do get deals though. Depends on how heavily loaded the MPW runs are.

This aside, I have severe doubts about the viability of their business plan, but that does not mean they should be called scammers.

I also have severe doubts that the sheep who follow the Asicminer banner (and their desire to 'distribute the hashrate' by piling thousands of Petahashes into the  network) are living in the same reality as others and while AM is clearly not a scam, their business proposition is much. much worse than what Coinbau is offering.

Fine, get back 200 die is still a small investment. The real question is, how many chips are been assembled into that rack of machines?  That isa bout three thousands. MPW run will not get back three thousands samples but only tens of it.

200 dies?
The calculation above was already for 3000 dies, which would cost you $405k with an MPW. The shown rack contains 10 machines, with 196 ASICs per machine (7 cards with 28 ASICs each). So they need only 1960 dies for a complete rack.
Any more questions?

[HyperMega]

In an MPW run you have only a few chips per wafer and, thus, the costs per chip are pretty high and dominate everything. Since the production of a wafer takes 2 months or more, in March or April we wouldn't have been able to get a return of investment with this first gen hardware. We would have needed a full mask tapeout but did not want to waste the money on an old technology when our 2nd generation was nearly final.

Best regards,
Markus

How many gen-1 chip used in the 1.8TH/s machine?
How many 1.8TH/s machines you have made?
What is the die size of gen-1 chip?
How many chips have you get back from your MPW run?
You tape out in August and you have the chip in hands in the early of this year, why not make a full mask? It will get the investment returned if you tape out full mask in the Jan or Feb. Are OP's team smart enough to make the chips but stupid enough cannot calculate an ROI?

Those 1.8TH/s miners built in rack have to be out of a full mask production. However, OP don't have the access to the full mask.

I repeat, this project is a scam.

Dude youre retarded, I urge everyone to ignore this shitposter, he/she is just another armchair expert with a obvious chip (no pun intended) on shoulder.

To clarify their August Gen1 chips have nothing to do with masks, speed, power as advertised in this thread. These were obviously stated as 28nm first gen chips (which is amusing since another company claims to be the first with 28nm implementation), horserider is clearly austistic.

FUCKER FUKT,

Every investment decision should be based on the team you are going to invest. This team is lying about the Gen1 chips. They are lying.

Quite nice troll style for somebody with your forum status!

I think you should do your investigations more carefully, before you call somebody a liar.

Their design service partner is RacyICs, with offices less than 5 km away from the GF 28nm fab in Dresden. According to the RacyICs website they are a GF channel partner and they are offering access to 28nm MPWs to anybody. If you are interested just send them an RFQ about 10 mm² and 3000 samples, then you will see if they make you a quote for this.
Furthermore they have a former GF manager in the Coinbau team. So I have no doubts that they got such an MPW deal for their gen 1.

In general, why should they try to lie? They are looking for serious investors and I guess they prefer big investors bringing more than $250k (unfortunately not my league ). I’m sure that such investors prove any claim they make including their gen 1 story before they sign a contract.

[Markus, CoinBau]

Hello all,

seems there have been plenty of discussions since Friday. Maybe I can clarify a couple of questions:

1. @rocks: you are completely right. A successful mine does not only require low-energy hardware but also cheap energy. Unfortunately, Germany and most parts of EU are too expensive. But Iceland is a quite efficient spot. Our Gen1 miners are running their and I can tell you: Sebastian saw a number of CoinTerra, KNC and Bitmine miners there, too. There are a few other spots with cheap energy in the world. However, you have to look worldwide.

2. The $15 million dollar can only pay for the very first miners which will not be 15% of the global hashrate. Instead the mining profit will be constantly reinvested in order to build up the mine to 15% of global rate. That's the reason for no dividend payout before year 3. We want to use the money in the build-up phase. We have detailed liquidity plans which we can discuss under NDA.

3. The time horizon. I already said it and I gladly repeat it: we believe in a long-term success of digital hardware and the Bitcoin in special. We want to take part in this process and we are sure there are other persons like us who do not only think of their short-term profit but have faith in the Bitcoin like us and want to be a long-term part of this revolutionary technology. We see it not as something to play and make money with but believe in the future success of this high-end technology.

4. In business you often find pioneers and late followers. The pioneers open doors and make their profit in the extremely volatile ramp-up phase. The late followers often have the better technology and consolidate the market. Yahoo for instance was much earlier in the world than Google.

5. brontosaurus explained the MPW very well. Typically, you get 50 to 100 chips from an MPW run. But the fab produces significantly more wafers than required for backup reasons and in different corners which we bought. Additionally, you can make special arrangements with a little bit more chips per wafer. In fact, we did not have enough chips for 15 fully assembled Gen1 cases. That's why we have 7 PCBs with 28 chips per board and a bit less than 100 PCBs with 20 chips per PCB. Each PCB is individually speed graded haveing chips running between 570 and 800 MHz. So, in all we had about 2000 chips and not more.

Best regards,
Markus

[cedivad]

Instead the mining profit will be constantly reinvested in order to build up the mine to 15% of global rate.

That's nonsense, and you know it. It's a really competitive market now and you won't have enough margin to expand later on. You will be lucky if you recovered the costs of your miners.

[HyperMega]

Instead the mining profit will be constantly reinvested in order to build up the mine to 15% of global rate.

That's nonsense, and you know it. It's a really competitive market now and you won't have enough margin to expand later on. You will be lucky if you recovered the costs of your miners.

That’s the real nonsense!

If it would be impossible to reach break-even and make profit (e.g. to invest in additional/new hardware) with 0.19 J/GH (0.27 J/GH at wall) produced for $0.5/GH or less running in Island, nobody would make profit anymore and in this case nobody would mine and invest in new hardware.

Come on, I followed your loved Hashfast thread. You are not naïve, you know what really matters when it comes to mining!

[cedivad]

Come on, I followed your loved Hashfast thread. You are not naïve, you know what really matters when it comes to mining!

Fine.

You think that investing 15M thanks to this innovative design you will be able to produce enough starting miners (10PH of them?) so that you will be able to have a competitive edge against the rest of the market. This advantage will be so huge that it will let you reinvest the spent capital on new hardware exponentially, until when you reach 15% of the global hashrate.

Let's test it:
10PH, starting December (I'm being optimistic), at the cost of $5M (since that you will execute everything perfectly), with a power usage of 3MW and a cost/kWh of $0.07 (I'm, again, being optimistic. Iceland is not synonymous for free electricity. It's only a little bit cheaper. Asia is where the cheap eletricity is, and you won't be able to compete with the chinese, that have both cheaper production costs and cheaper electricity so that they can be competitive with a slighter worse J/GH). With the standard 31%/month difficulty increase (the one elaborated from the previous months), you will not recover your investment:
https://tradeblock.com/mining/a/8cca8d1f97

With 25%/month, you would make $200k.
With 15%/month (not gonna happen), you will make $6M before the end of 2015.

Now, let's suppose the last scenario to be the correct one. You make $6M before the end of the year. That's a one year only roi of 160%. That's great, however it's still one order of magnitude off from what you need to catch up with the network and maintain 15% of it.

Easy, isn't it?

[HyperMega]

Come on, I followed your loved Hashfast thread. You are not naïve, you know what really matters when it comes to mining!

Fine.

You think that investing 15M thanks to this innovative design you will be able to produce enough starting miners (10PH of them?) so that you will be able to have a competitive edge against the rest of the market. This advantage will be so huge that it will let you reinvest the spent capital on new hardware exponentially, until when you reach 15% of the global hashrate.

Let's test it:
10PH, starting December (I'm being optimistic), at the cost of $5M (since that you will execute everything perfectly), with a power usage of 3MW and a cost/kWh of $0.07 (I'm, again, being optimistic. Iceland is not synonymous for free electricity. It's only a little bit cheaper. Asia is where the cheap eletricity is, and you won't be able to compete with the chinese, that have both cheaper production costs and cheaper electricity so that they can be competitive with a slighter worse J/GH). With the standard 31%/month difficulty increase (the one elaborated from the previous months), you will not recover your investment:
https://tradeblock.com/mining/a/8cca8d1f97

With 25%/month, you would make $200k.
With 15%/month (not gonna happen), you will make $6M before the end of 2015.

Now, let's suppose the last scenario to be the correct one. You make $6M before the end of the year. That's a one year only roi of 160%. That's great, however it's still one order of magnitude off from what you need to catch up with the network and maintain 15% of it.

Easy, isn't it?

Yes, easy.
But why are you assuming that they spent only $5M of the remaining $12.5M (after tape-out costs) for hardware.
If they spent all, they would start with 25 PH and would make $15M with mining in one year (2.5x $6M according to your calculations), which they could constantly re-invest in additional 30 PH, resulting in 55 PH online after one year.

So what is your prediction for the global hashrate end of 2015? More than 1000 PH?
Even in this case they would already have 5.5% after one year, this is no order of magnitude away from 15%.

Sounds crazy, of course, but not impossible.

[cedivad]

It's the same concept. Your return is in a really really good case scenario 160% of what you invested, after one year. Even if they had 12M to invest, you would have 12 + 12*1.6 $M worth of hardware up after one year. As you said that's roughly 50PH at the end of 2015. Not one order of magnitude off, but a lot less of the goal.

Yes, I don't have any problem predicting an exahash or bigger network before the end of 2015.
And at that point you have to tapeout your 14nm version. With what money?

I'm guessing it here, but I think that if you used some other manufacturer hardware and started hashing in one month instead of 3/4 (with a proven technology) you would mine during those 2/3 months more than the difference of the cost of electricity of running the two types of hardware.

[shitaifan2013]

hi guys,

maybe someone of the CoinBau team wants to visit our monthly Leipzig barrel-roll (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=308377.msg8378170#msg8378170), since there is no bitcoin meet up at Dresden afaik?

if not I could offer to visit CoinBau in Dresden early September and get pictures/videos and ask specific questions for you guys if intersted?

I'm no miner and not the most (bitcoin) tech-sawy guy, but I'd be happy to help gather more info on this project.

[trek27]

Just stumbled on this:
 http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2014/08/15/german-startup-says-its-new-chip-halves-bitcoin-mining-energy/

EDIT:
Here some talk about the article: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=740951.0

[Sebastian - CoinBau]

hi guys,

maybe someone of the CoinBau team wants to visit our monthly Leipzig barrel-roll (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=308377.msg8378170#msg8378170), since there is no bitcoin meet up at Dresden afaik?

if not I could offer to visit CoinBau in Dresden early September and get pictures/videos and ask specific questions for you guys if intersted?

I'm no miner and not the most (bitcoin) tech-sawy guy, but I'd be happy to help gather more info on this project.

We are glad to visit you in Leipzig on Thursday.

Best,
Sebastian - CoinBau

[Markus, CoinBau]

CoinBau has reached the press. There have been a couple of articles:

Wall Street Journal (ENG): blogs. wsj.com/digits/2014/08/15/german-startup-says-its-new-chip-halves-bitcoin-mining-energy/

golem.de (GER): http://www.golem.de/news/virtuelle-waehrungen-sparsame-asics-fuer-das-bitcoin-mining-1408-108584.html

heise.de (GER): http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Dresdener-Startup-verspricht-effizienten-Bitcoin-Chip-2293679.html

[jack3rror]

We will operate this hardware in an own mine. Our target is holding 15% of the global hash rate in 2016 and keeping this percentage long-term.  To finance the setup of this large-scale mining operation the ASICrising GmbH will become CoinBau AG, a German incorporated company, selling shares.

Teach us how to cool them and we will run rigs with your hardware.

[newguy05]

just want to make sure i understand this right.  you are looking for a min of $10k investment now for hardware not fully built yet, and you will start paying an unknown amount of dividend in 3 years?

is my understanding correct? 

[Markus, CoinBau]

just want to make sure i understand this right.  you are looking for a min of $10k investment now for hardware not fully built yet, and you will start paying an unknown amount of dividend in 3 years?

is my understanding correct?  

In principal yes, your understanding is correct. However, our projections expect about 33% of return on your investment in year 3. Additionally, you have the shares of the company which have an additional and much higher value than you payed for them in case of success and which you can sell, too.

BR,
Markus

[Hermann1337]

really nice to see something like this coming from germany! Hope this will rise bitcoin awareness in our country

[Chris_Sabian]

just want to make sure i understand this right.  you are looking for a min of $10k investment now for hardware not fully built yet, and you will start paying an unknown amount of dividend in 3 years?

is my understanding correct?  

In principal yes, your understanding is correct. However, our projections expect about 33% of return on your investment in year 3. Additionally, you have the shares of the company which have an additional and much higher value than you payed for them in case of success and which you can sell, too.

BR,
Markus

I hope that you understand that in BitcoinLand, everything moves extremely fast.  The difficulty of the network has increased by almost 1000x with the price up 5x in the last year. 

In 3 years, who knows what the difficulty and price will be. 

Sorry if you are a legit company looking for real investors, but noone here will invest in something with a payout in 3 years.

[FUR11]

Is it possible for you to give us a forecast of the hashrate/difficulty you expect over the coming year(s), in order to gauge whether your estimates are realistic? Have they disclosed such an estimate by now?

[Markus, CoinBau]

Hello,

we have not disclosed detailed information about our expectations of the hashrate development in we will do so only under NDA since these are business related internal information.
However, we can state this: we expect an ongoing development of the hash rate until the point where the mining hardware cannot mine efficiently even for pretty low energy costs including a deprecation. And we expect to break the 1000 PH/s wall within the next 18 months.

BR
Markus

[FUR11]

Hello,

we have not disclosed detailed information about our expectations of the hashrate development in we will do so only under NDA since these are business related internal information.
However, we can state this: we expect an ongoing development of the hash rate until the point where the mining hardware cannot mine efficiently even for pretty low energy costs including a deprecation. And we expect to break the 1000 PH/s wall within the next 18 months.

BR
Markus

Phew... careful! I guess the most modest predictions will lead us to a 1000 PH/s hash rate in 9 months. I think you've run the numbers, but just to illustrate:

Code:

FinalHashrate = CurrentHashrate*((MultiplierIncreasePerDifficulty^2.5)^Months)

Given an increase of 10% (1.1x) we'd be at:
835 PH/s after 6 months. And 1707 PH/s after 9 months!!! In 18 months we'd have a whooping 14'578 PH/s (14 times 1000 PH/s!!!)

Let's just say we're more in the lines of a 15% (1.15x) increase:
1627 PH/s after 6 months, 4642 PH/s after 9 months!!! and 107'753 PH/s after 18 months (107 times 1000 PH/s!!!)

I don't want to run all the numbers for a continuing 20% increase (like we saw at least with every increase in late 2013) - it's scary, 3000 PH/s after a mere 6 months. Don't mean to scare you, just wanted to make sure you did think that through. Even miners with an academic degree often get punched in the guts by an exponential increase of the difficulty. Feel free to contact me if you've any further questions!

[brontosaurus]

Hello,

we have not disclosed detailed information about our expectations of the hashrate development in we will do so only under NDA since these are business related internal information.
However, we can state this: we expect an ongoing development of the hash rate until the point where the mining hardware cannot mine efficiently even for pretty low energy costs including a deprecation. And we expect to break the 1000 PH/s wall within the next 18 months.

BR
Markus

Markus,

I don't mean to be rude but asking for an NDA to be signed is .... crazy. No one on this planet can forecast what the hashrate will be or how the BTC value will behave and I'm not sure why you would not want to give out the information. If you want people to consider investing you have to give them the data on which you have made your predictions. otherwise how can they make an objective decision about whether your plan is realistic or not? The more you withhold this data, the more predictions people will make and that is not going to help you one bit.

What I can tell you with a fair degree of certainty is that the 1000PH barrier will be broken long before 18 months from now. Don't know if you read about it but Bitfury recently secured $20m of investment and I'm guessing most of that will be going on building hashing capacity, probably based on their new chip and they'll be riding the profitability wave for at least 6 months before yours starts to get online and reinvesting it in the same manner. (as will others)

And of course you must not forget that according to their resident clown, Asicminer are going to 'crush' the competition, (I haven't stopped laughing about that comment since I read it) supposedly with 150PH per month deployed according to another one of their disciples. There's not much sign of that yet but you can expect that a lot of their chips will find their way into the system along with ones from all the other vendors.

[Chris_Sabian]

I think that OP and the company clearly do not understand bitcoin / bitcoinland. 

Asking for a NDA for predicted hashrates, dividends after 3 years, huge investment in capital with limited sources to back it up, means a huge 'NO' for me.

Move along.

[RoadStress]

However, we can state this: we expect an ongoing development of the hash rate until the point where the mining hardware cannot mine efficiently even for pretty low energy costs including a deprecation.

I have to warn you that you might be wrong here. I am expecting the hash rate development over the point of power cost-bitcoins produced equilibrium. In the future I see mining operations running on red and paying more for power than the bitcoins produced, but earning from other services. So don't be so sure that hashrate deployment will stop so soon.

[intron]

However, we can state this: we expect an ongoing development of the hash rate until the point where the mining hardware cannot mine efficiently even for pretty low energy costs including a deprecation.

I have to warn you that you might be wrong here. I am expecting the hash rate development over the point of power cost-bitcoins produced equilibrium. In the future I see mining operations running on red and paying more for power than the bitcoins produced, but earning from other services. So don't be so sure that hashrate deployment will stop so soon.

I second that.

[brontosaurus]

However, we can state this: we expect an ongoing development of the hash rate until the point where the mining hardware cannot mine efficiently even for pretty low energy costs including a deprecation.

I have to warn you that you might be wrong here. I am expecting the hash rate development over the point of power cost-bitcoins produced equilibrium. In the future I see mining operations running on red and paying more for power than the bitcoins produced, but earning from other services. So don't be so sure that hashrate deployment will stop so soon.

Spot on, because if miners stop mining then no one gets their transactions verified. Yesterday over 3.3 million bitcoins were sent, if you assume that people will be willing to pay 0.1% of the transaction value then assuming that this value of transactions stays the same, at power parity miners would be effectively competing for 3,300 per day, roughly $1.6m as opposed to the current mining reward of about $1.8m.

Still a lot to play for though I don't know how the 0.1% would/could be shared out. And I don't think many would object to paying 0.1%, would they?

[runeks]

Here's my opinion: 10% per year (30% after 3 years) isn't bad, but no one knows how much the investment will return. When a prospectus says the goal is 10%/yr, I assume it's more likely to be 5%/yr. Ie. I would like some margin of error for their claim, and at 5%/yr it's way too risky (I'd rather buy Intel or Berkshire Hathaway stock, which have roughly the same year-on-year return).

Intel has proven that it can get a 5-10% return per year on capital: http://ycharts.com/companies/INTC/pe_ratio

This company is simply claiming it can get 10%/year.

I'd much rather invest in an established company with a 5%/yr return than a new, unknown company who claims 10%/yr returns.

[ensurance982]

Here's my opinion: 10% per year (30% after 3 years) isn't bad, but no one knows how much the investment will return. When a prospectus says the goal is 10%/yr, I assume it's more likely to be 5%/yr. Ie. I would like some margin of error for their claim, and at 5%/yr it's way too risky (I'd rather buy Intel or Berkshire Hathaway stock, which have roughly the same year-on-year return).

Intel has proven that it can get a 5-10% return per year on capital: http://ycharts.com/companies/INTC/pe_ratio

This company is simply claiming it can get 10%/year.

I'd much rather invest in an established company with a 5%/yr return than a new, unknown company who claims 10%/yr returns.

Yes, exactly. I'm also quite puzzled that those people don't seem to show up in this thread anymore. Maybe they've realized their numbers are off? I think this isn't exactly confidence-building in my opinion. Also, FUR11 is right with his estimates about the increase in hash rate!

[Markus, CoinBau]

Hello all,

@ensurance982: we did not post the last week because we were very busy keeping contact to interested investors. But we are still here and it seems it is time to respond.

There have been heavy discussions about the hasrate development. Fur111 predicts a hashrate development of up to 107'753 PH/s n 18 months. Do you know what this means? Let' summarize it in numbers:
- the prize per GH/s is now 0.87$ at the cheapes seller. But let's assume it goes down to 0.5$ per GH/s. Bringing 100'000 PH/s into the market would require 50 billion USD investment in the Bitcoin mining market. A market which currently brings 650 million USD per year. Bitfury raised 'only' 20 million USD. So, where do you find an investor who spends 50 billion USD which he will never see again? It is impossible for a market to grow exponentially without end, at some point it must end, the question is where. About this point we can discuss but not in such an unrealistic manner as 100'000 PH/s.
- the point of fees for mining is a legal one raising the hash rate above the limit we expect. BUT: we would benefit from this in the same way as all other miners would, too. So, this would have no negative influence on the investment.


The investment:
The

Here's my opinion: 10% per year (30% after 3 years) isn't bad, but no one knows how much the investment will return. When a prospectus says the goal is 10%/yr, I assume it's more likely to be 5%/yr. Ie. I would like some margin of error for their claim, and at 5%/yr it's way too risky (I'd rather buy Intel or Berkshire Hathaway stock, which have roughly the same year-on-year return).

Intel has proven that it can get a 5-10% return per year on capital: http://ycharts.com/companies/INTC/pe_ratio

This company is simply claiming it can get 10%/year.

I'd much rather invest in an established company with a 5%/yr return than a new, unknown company who claims 10%/yr returns.

This is a quite simple look, you have forgotten a number of things:
1. this is the dividend after 3 years. But one year later you have another 30 % dividend payout, and one year later again. So, over 5 years you get roughly 20% per year as dividend becoming better with every year.
2. you ingore the share value. With a turnover of 50 million USD and a profit of 20 million USD after 3 years the company is worth much much more than the initial value. So your real return rate is the rise in the share value AND the dividend payout resulting in a much higher return rate after 3 years.

Best regards
Markus

[pascal257]

But let's assume it goes down to 0.5$ per GH/s (what is pretty close to the limit).

Could you elaborate on how you got to this number?

[jimmothy]

But let's assume it goes down to 0.5$ per GH/s (what is pretty close to the limit).

Could you elaborate on how you got to this number?

I'd also like to know how asicminer broke the theoretical limit on 40nm chips (currently offering ~$0.42/gh overclocked)

[cedivad]

I'd also like to know how asicminer broke the theoretical limit on 40nm chips (currently offering ~$0.42/gh overclocked)

LOL.

[RoadStress]

But let's assume it goes down to 0.5$ per GH/s (what is pretty close to the limit).

Could you elaborate on how you got to this number?

Maybe with the current technology...even if AM broke that limit. I still see a Markus who has no idea what he is talking about...which makes me sad.

[cedivad]

Thinking that AM is the only one that can sell hardware at less than 50c and still make a profit would be incredibly naive (especially since that you know the AM case already).

[ensurance982]

But let's assume it goes down to 0.5$ per GH/s (what is pretty close to the limit).

Could you elaborate on how you got to this number?

Maybe with the current technology...even if AM broke that limit. I still see a Markus who has no idea what he is talking about...which makes me sad.

Yeah, simply assuming companies like AM achieve that price with 40nm node sizes, imagine what they'll do with node sizes of 20nm or even 14nm, maybe below that some day... And of course further optimizations... I'm certain we will see single digit cent costs in 2015.

[RoadStress]

Thinking that AM is the only one that can sell hardware at less than 50c and still make a profit would be incredibly naive (especially since that you know the AM case already).

I wouldn't go that far. I don't think they are making a profit out of that cost. They need to get rid of the 40nm chips asap.

[jimmothy]

Thinking that AM is the only one that can sell hardware at less than 50c and still make a profit would be incredibly naive (especially since that you know the AM case already).

I wouldn't go that far. I don't think they are making a profit out of that cost. They need to get rid of the 40nm chips asap.

Why would they sell hardware for no profit while they are trying to accumulate hardware for their massive datacenter?

[RoadStress]

Thinking that AM is the only one that can sell hardware at less than 50c and still make a profit would be incredibly naive (especially since that you know the AM case already).

I wouldn't go that far. I don't think they are making a profit out of that cost. They need to get rid of the 40nm chips asap.

Why would they sell hardware for no profit while they are trying to accumulate hardware for their massive datacenter?

Because they ordered too many chips?

The question that you should ask should be why would they sell hardware from the first place when they could mine with a part of it from the start?

[GrandmaJean]

Thinking that AM is the only one that can sell hardware at less than 50c and still make a profit would be incredibly naive (especially since that you know the AM case already).

I wouldn't go that far. I don't think they are making a profit out of that cost. They need to get rid of the 40nm chips asap.

Why would they sell hardware for no profit while they are trying to accumulate hardware for their massive datacenter?

Because they ordered too many chips?

The question that you should ask should be why would they sell hardware from the first place when they could mine with a part of it from the start?

Even if they have too many chips, the cost of the chip is likely much less then what they can get from mining on a NPV basis.

[jimmothy]

Thinking that AM is the only one that can sell hardware at less than 50c and still make a profit would be incredibly naive (especially since that you know the AM case already).

I wouldn't go that far. I don't think they are making a profit out of that cost. They need to get rid of the 40nm chips asap.

Why would they sell hardware for no profit while they are trying to accumulate hardware for their massive datacenter?

Because they ordered too many chips?

The question that you should ask should be why would they sell hardware from the first place when they could mine with a part of it from the start?

So you think they are selling hardware at no profit as a charity because they have extra chips?

There is an obvious reason for selling hardware instead of using it to mine. (profit)

[RoadStress]

Even if they have too many chips, the cost of the chip is likely much less then what they can get from mining on a NPV basis.

So you think they are selling hardware at no profit as a charity because they have extra chips?

There is an obvious reason for selling hardware instead of using it to mine. (profit)

I think you got it both wrong. Unless FC expected to sell out all the chips in 2 months then not starting mining 3 months ago is a big business and profit mistake. I am not saying that he should have done one thing. I am saying that he should've mined and sell hardware in the same time. Picking only one was a very big mistake.

jimmothy selling at no profit doesn't automatically means that you are doing charity work. It means that you are moving forward and looking into the future and trying to gain at least your investment in order to pursue other plans. Selling at no profit only occurs when selling at a profit isn't working as you expected. Having all/majority of liquidity invested in bare chips doesn't let you start/pay another chip design/mask. Getting your liquidity back does let you move on. Bitcoin and mining taught me to never put all my eggs in a basket and to decentralize! FC/AM did exactly the opposite.

[spiftheninja]

Markus, ignore the haters. You seem like you know a shitton about chip technology. The current/future state of bitcoins is very uncertain and hard to predict.. everyone "WANTS" stability, but most people rely on the fluctuations to make their money-- or buy in at a cheap rate and HOLD hoping for "moon". Well, I believe in you, and although I'm not a serious lender.. I wish you the best of luck on your endeavors. Perhaps the sea of trolls on BTCtalk isn't the best place to start. I do hope, in the future, our paths shall cross.. you're definitely on the right track!

[tss]

so many seniors discussing..  short version, is this for real?

[shitaifan2013]

i have not been to DD yet to visit their facility, but two guys from their team, who are also on their homepage with pictures, have been to our regular bitcoin meeting in Leipzig around two months ago.

they brought some of their costum asic chips and two fully equipped mining boards from their first MPW run to get an impression.

both guys were also really nice and answered all our questions.

if there is still public interst i can ask them for a visiting date and get back to this thread with a couple of pictures etc.

[Sine(X)]

Any news on the chips / miners??

Their website doesn't give much information.

thanks

Are you joking?

[CryptKeeper]

Any news on the chips / miners??

Their website doesn't give much information.

thanks

IMHO all bitcoin mining projects are on hold for now, because of the low btc rate.

[CryptKeeper]

Any news on the chips / miners??

Their website doesn't give much information.

thanks

Now that the btc price is on the rebound,

Any news on this company?? or their chip / miner???

Please define "rebound". 

Bitcoin was about $600 when this thread started...

[CryptKeeper]

Any news on the chips / miners??

Their website doesn't give much information.

thanks

Now that the btc price is on the rebound,

Any news on this company?? or their chip / miner???

Please define "rebound". 

Bitcoin was about $600 when this thread started...

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rebound

Should read:

Please define "rebound" wrt BTC rate

 

[TheRealSteve]

Giving this thread a little nudge.  Getting back to some numbers...

COMPUTE POWER: 100 GH/s … 125 GH/s
ENERGY PER GH: 0.19 J/GH … 0.29 J/GH

Do these figures, as they should, correlate?  I.e. 0.19J/Gh@100Gh/s and 0.29J/Gh@125Gh/s

If yes, one of the posts claims:

nominal mode 1.4 GH/mm² and 0.19 J/GH. [...] high performance mode realizing 2.1 GH/mm² at an energy consumption of about 0.29 J/GH.

If taking the J/Gh as authoritative, the other figures would seem incongruous.

Presuming the die stays the same size and the Gh/s/mm² figures are correct:
100Gh/s / 1.4Gh/s/mm² * 2.1Gh/s/mm² = 150Gh/s

Alternatively, if the 125Gh/s figure is correct:
125Gh/s / (100Gh/s / 1.4Gh/s/mm²) = 1.75Gh/mm²

If they don't correlate ... what would the correlated values be?

[ensurance982]

Giving this thread a little nudge.  Getting back to some numbers...

COMPUTE POWER: 100 GH/s … 125 GH/s
ENERGY PER GH: 0.19 J/GH … 0.29 J/GH

Do these figures, as they should, correlate?  I.e. 0.19J/Gh@100Gh/s and 0.29J/Gh@125Gh/s

If yes, one of the posts claims:

nominal mode 1.4 GH/mm² and 0.19 J/GH. [...] high performance mode realizing 2.1 GH/mm² at an energy consumption of about 0.29 J/GH.

If taking the J/Gh as authoritative, the other figures would seem incongruous.

Presuming the die stays the same size and the Gh/s/mm² figures are correct:
100Gh/s / 1.4Gh/s/mm² * 2.1Gh/s/mm² = 150Gh/s

Alternatively, if the 125Gh/s figure is correct:
125Gh/s / (100Gh/s / 1.4Gh/s/mm²) = 1.75Gh/mm²

If they don't correlate ... what would the correlated values be?

I always thought this was an interesting venture, but always had the feeling that they didn't really factor in the growth of the hash rate, and maybe the declining BTC price of the last 15 months.

[Gleb Gamow]

Hello all,

@ensurance982: we did not post the last week because we were very busy keeping contact to interested investors. But we are still here and it seems it is time to respond.

There have been heavy discussions about the hasrate development. Fur111 predicts a hashrate development of up to 107'753 PH/s n 18 months. Do you know what this means? Let' summarize it in numbers:
- the prize per GH/s is now 0.87$ at the cheapes seller. But let's assume it goes down to 0.5$ per GH/s. Bringing 100'000 PH/s into the market would require 50 billion USD investment in the Bitcoin mining market. A market which currently brings 650 million USD per year. Bitfury raised 'only' 20 million USD. So, where do you find an investor who spends 50 billion USD which he will never see again? It is impossible for a market to grow exponentially without end, at some point it must end, the question is where. About this point we can discuss but not in such an unrealistic manner as 100'000 PH/s.
- the point of fees for mining is a legal one raising the hash rate above the limit we expect. BUT: we would benefit from this in the same way as all other miners would, too. So, this would have no negative influence on the investment.


The investment:
The

Here's my opinion: 10% per year (30% after 3 years) isn't bad, but no one knows how much the investment will return. When a prospectus says the goal is 10%/yr, I assume it's more likely to be 5%/yr. Ie. I would like some margin of error for their claim, and at 5%/yr it's way too risky (I'd rather buy Intel or Berkshire Hathaway stock, which have roughly the same year-on-year return).

Intel has proven that it can get a 5-10% return per year on capital: http://ycharts.com/companies/INTC/pe_ratio

This company is simply claiming it can get 10%/year.

I'd much rather invest in an established company with a 5%/yr return than a new, unknown company who claims 10%/yr returns.

This is a quite simple look, you have forgotten a number of things:
1. this is the dividend after 3 years. But one year later you have another 30 % dividend payout, and one year later again. So, over 5 years you get roughly 20% per year as dividend becoming better with every year.
2. you ingore the share value. With a turnover of 50 million USD and a profit of 20 million USD after 3 years the company is worth much much more than the initial value. So your real return rate is the rise in the share value AND the dividend payout resulting in a much higher return rate after 3 years.

Best regards
Markus

Last post was ~54 weeks ago apologizing for not posting the week prior. Is this project dead?

[RoadStress]

Last post was ~54 weeks ago apologizing for not posting the week prior. Is this project dead?

Considering that BITMAIN has better efficiency I think it is safe to say that this project is dead.

Our target is holding 15% of the global hash rate in 2016

So funny!

[el_rlee]

Are there any of this "Wolfblood" ASIC's in the wild?

[valkir]

Any update on theses chips ?