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Author Topic: IS GHASH.IO Cheating Miners? Paying LESS THAN 50% of expected?  (Read 6851 times)
tss
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August 01, 2014, 04:48:54 AM
 #1

issues with ghash?
anyone experiencing the same as well or am i totally wrong?

example.. 1 TH mining power i should be earning 0.02684 daily according to bitcoinwisdom with best conditions at current diff.  
past 3-4 days or so i'm making less than 0.012 per th.

previously when ghash was mining every 3rd or 4th block i would get close to expectations -20% to -25%

1) is this acceptable?  
2) if the total hash rate of ghash has dropped and my hashrate remains the same per block found, i should not have my overall earnings affected over time?

is my logic correct? where am i mistaken?
i have checked my miners and they are hashing at normal speed.
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August 01, 2014, 05:10:36 AM
 #2

I've strayed away from them quickly... Its not even worth it to keep my systems hooked to them.  I Decided to go to another pool that works just as well but a little better.

The fact you've been making almost 50% of what you should is already a red flag.    I was using them for my systems and I was getting 40% roughly   then I put a few hundred GH/s into their cloud and was getting more taken away in fee's than I was recieving (i.e like I would get 0.0001 from a block and the fee's would have been 0.00012) so I was losing quickly.... if you want a site to try... PM me
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August 01, 2014, 05:30:11 AM
 #3

I've strayed away from them quickly... Its not even worth it to keep my systems hooked to them.  I Decided to go to another pool that works just as well but a little better.

The fact you've been making almost 50% of what you should is already a red flag.    I was using them for my systems and I was getting 40% roughly   then I put a few hundred GH/s into their cloud and was getting more taken away in fee's than I was recieving (i.e like I would get 0.0001 from a block and the fee's would have been 0.00012) so I was losing quickly.... if you want a site to try... PM me

thank you single post troll.. this is a new level.. i wont be pm'ing you but thanks for the advice.  i hope you send some btc to ghash soon before they take it out of your bank.. you still owe them 0.00002 per block you helped mine.
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August 01, 2014, 07:11:14 AM
 #4

I've been mining on ghash.io since i sold off my ghs from cex.io to buy into my own asic hardware. At about 1.8 TH/s i've been pulling down about .034 to .036 or so per day. You said "best conditions" and by your numbers i should be getting 0.048312 per day. So if i assume NOT "best conditions" then should i think .036 instead of 0.048312 is reasonable?

also, something that might affect it - i've been mining on cex/ghash for about 8 months, and plotting/graphing the entirety of it for analysis purposes. The thing that i have found to be very intriguing is that when the difficulty changes, it really doesn't seem to have much affect on my mining production. like literally at all. with a slow decay in production over time, it's almost as though they linearize the decay that happens due to difficulty drop, and by that i mean make it into a constant decay rather than a stepped change like difficulty by adjusting based on the expected difficulty change which is amazingly accurate, especially the closer it gets to the actual diff change. my theory is that this is how they make their profit since they have a 0% pool fee. and honestly, i kinda like it... i'm ok with them making their profit in an innovative way outside the box of what everyone would normally assume.

if this is true, then it means what you should be getting vs. what you are actually getting would be different immediately before and immediately after a diff change.

whether i could and/or should be getting that extra 0.012312 per day, well, i have to do some analysis on that. when i'm not focused on building out my mining op i'll spend some time deciding whether to go to another pool and which one. but i like the fact that ghash is tied to cex, and the reason i got into cex was not specifically for the cloud mining but rather the commodity trading of ghs. regardless of the fact that their ghs is more expensive than hardware, regardless of how much i had, i was able to nearly double and quadruple it by seizing lucrative trading opportunities. because of that i was able to make thousands of $USD worth of bitcoin in profit, and sell out to by 20 s3's this week.
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August 02, 2014, 06:16:56 AM
 #5

It's called variance, and you cannot escape it - no matter which pool you run to.

Ghash has had bad luck for the last 2-3 days (look at the 3 and 4 hour blocks).  On top of that the network speed has grown but ghash hasn't, so it's share of the network went down.

No pool is able to avoid variance.  Use CGminer to load balance your shares across multiple pools and decrease your variance further.
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August 02, 2014, 10:55:11 AM
 #6

Ghash has been cheating miners in various ways since day one, period. Their price manipulation is legendary, as is their fee changes without notice after deleting their prices from their own blog.

Then there's the small matter of double spending against the Bitcoin network by them, which they lied about. They're not just cheating miners - they're guilty of cheating the whole Bitcoin network.

Avoid them like the plague.

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August 02, 2014, 04:52:34 PM
 #7

Ghash has been cheating miners in various ways since day one, period. Their price manipulation is legendary, as is their fee changes without notice after deleting their prices from their own blog.

Then there's the small matter of double spending against the Bitcoin network by them, which they lied about. They're not just cheating miners - they're guilty of cheating the whole Bitcoin network.

Avoid them like the plague.

Could not say any better.

Thank you!
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August 02, 2014, 04:54:47 PM
 #8

Ghash.io is one shady site by my option, i never mined there as i've seen alot of posts about them...you better mine on other pool.
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August 03, 2014, 03:45:00 AM
 #9

issues with ghash?
anyone experiencing the same as well or am i totally wrong?

example.. 1 TH mining power i should be earning 0.02684 daily according to bitcoinwisdom with best conditions at current diff.  
past 3-4 days or so i'm making less than 0.012 per th.

previously when ghash was mining every 3rd or 4th block i would get close to expectations -20% to -25%

1) is this acceptable?  
2) if the total hash rate of ghash has dropped and my hashrate remains the same per block found, i should not have my overall earnings affected over time?

is my logic correct? where am i mistaken?
i have checked my miners and they are hashing at normal speed.

DrG is correct, variance is what you are seeing. When you tally your daily returns also look at the number of blocks solved in that same period and track that. Then you will we the impact of longer block times from difficulty / luck issues.
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August 03, 2014, 09:21:09 AM
 #10

DrG is correct, variance is what you are seeing. When you tally your daily returns also look at the number of blocks solved in that same period and track that. Then you will we the impact of longer block times from difficulty / luck issues.

IYFTech is also correct - strange how you don't comment on that eh?...... Cheesy

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August 04, 2014, 01:40:52 AM
 #11

DrG is correct, variance is what you are seeing. When you tally your daily returns also look at the number of blocks solved in that same period and track that. Then you will we the impact of longer block times from difficulty / luck issues.

IYFTech is also correct - strange how you don't comment on that eh?...... Cheesy

Why would they again comment on the same old troll post for that is what it is. IFYTech doesn't want an answer he just wants to post the same comments over and over.

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August 05, 2014, 09:46:02 AM
 #12

Why would they again comment on the same old troll post for that is what it is. IFYTech doesn't want an answer he just wants to post the same comments over and over.

You are correct - my statement was not a question & it did not need answering.

Yes, I have made quite a few statements regarding cex/ghash double spending attacks, price fixing/manipulation, fee pricing deletion/extortion, lack of transparency etc, etc, I do this in an effort to educate noob cex users like yourself about the shady practises of the people you are trusting your coins with, to stop you being ripped off & because I believe that any entity that can be dismantled by the truth, should be. Noob cex users like yourself are particularly vulnerable to their pretty website & false statements, as well as being completely unaware of their history. I was around when they did it & was active in finding out the truth - hardly befitting of the Troll you label me as.

Of course, you can mine with who ever you want, but it is important that noobs are made aware of certain goings on to enable them to make an informed decision as to who to use for mining/trading, who is reputable & who is not. If every noob miner done just a little research before diving head first into the prettiest website under the false assumption that (2nd) biggest is best, I probably wouldn't have to remind anyone, but they don't - so I do  Wink

IYF

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August 06, 2014, 02:57:39 AM
 #13

Why would they again comment on the same old troll post for that is what it is. IFYTech doesn't want an answer he just wants to post the same comments over and over.

You are correct - my statement was not a question & it did not need answering.

Yes, I have made quite a few statements regarding cex/ghash double spending attacks, price fixing/manipulation, fee pricing deletion/extortion, lack of transparency etc, etc, I do this in an effort to educate noob cex users like yourself about the shady practises of the people you are trusting your coins with, to stop you being ripped off & because I believe that any entity that can be dismantled by the truth, should be. Noob cex users like yourself are particularly vulnerable to their pretty website & false statements, as well as being completely unaware of their history. I was around when they did it & was active in finding out the truth - hardly befitting of the Troll you label me as.

Of course, you can mine with who ever you want, but it is important that noobs are made aware of certain goings on to enable them to make an informed decision as to who to use for mining/trading, who is reputable & who is not. If every noob miner done just a little research before diving head first into the prettiest website under the false assumption that (2nd) biggest is best, I probably wouldn't have to remind anyone, but they don't - so I do  Wink

IYF

Thanks, I am sure lots of people sleeping safer knowing you have their back. Just an observation, you make too many assumptions and plenty of self importance. Good luck defending the 'noobs' from the 'evil'.

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August 06, 2014, 05:16:19 AM
 #14

Why would they again comment on the same old troll post for that is what it is. IFYTech doesn't want an answer he just wants to post the same comments over and over.

You are correct - my statement was not a question & it did not need answering.

Yes, I have made quite a few statements regarding cex/ghash double spending attacks, price fixing/manipulation, fee pricing deletion/extortion, lack of transparency etc, etc, I do this in an effort to educate noob cex users like yourself about the shady practises of the people you are trusting your coins with, to stop you being ripped off & because I believe that any entity that can be dismantled by the truth, should be. Noob cex users like yourself are particularly vulnerable to their pretty website & false statements, as well as being completely unaware of their history. I was around when they did it & was active in finding out the truth - hardly befitting of the Troll you label me as.

Of course, you can mine with who ever you want, but it is important that noobs are made aware of certain goings on to enable them to make an informed decision as to who to use for mining/trading, who is reputable & who is not. If every noob miner done just a little research before diving head first into the prettiest website under the false assumption that (2nd) biggest is best, I probably wouldn't have to remind anyone, but they don't - so I do  Wink

IYF

Thanks, I am sure lots of people sleeping safer knowing you have their back. Just an observation, you make too many assumptions and plenty of self importance. Good luck defending the 'noobs' from the 'evil'.

While not to get into a pissing war it is the experienced and veteran posters who keep a lot of the noobs from making massive mistakes.  Bitcoin is a community and the protocol follows the communities wishes.  He's trying to influence the way the community decides to distribute its hash.

This is my 3rd account on the forums - after each major hack I just made a new one (ahh Cosbycoin I miss thee).  While every poster has obvious bias to what they say - perhaps there is a reason some scream on these forums for reasons other than mental instability.

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August 06, 2014, 06:43:00 PM
 #15

While I agree you should not make rash decisions and jump out of your pool based on your payout dipping due to variance.  There does seem to be some suspicious patterns occuring.

Mining Pools on the other hand typically calculate their hash rate based on the number of shares turned in.  For example: https://www.btcguild.com/index.php?page=pool_stats and http://eligius.st/~gateway/stats/recent-blocks

Interestingly both of those pools have had an increase of their hash rate, and a drop in pool luck over the same time frame.

<TinFoilHatOn: ConspiracyTheory>

What if a major pool, or private miner (Ghash, CoinTerra, etc), mined with half of their hardware on a public pool but executed a withholding attack on the pool?  They would collect BTC rewards for the other blocks found by the public pool, but withhold all blocks found and transfer thier BTC rewards to their own pool.  This would make the public pool's luck look bad, and their own pool luck look good. 

They could even delay the block release until a time when their own pool luck was bad, or the public pool's luck was good, to prevent it from looking too obvious.  This delay would cause the entire combined network hash speed to appear much lower than it actually is, at least until they release the found blocks.  They would only need to release them before the difficulty increased when the blocks might become invalid.

</TinFoilHatOn: ConspiracyTheory>


Disclaimer: I have done no research beyond the links listed above, and this is pure speculation.

Now that I see Ghash is also paying out less than expected I have to go "hmmm"...and do more research.

http://www.bitcoincharts.com/
Current network speed (calculated by rate of blocks turned in): 147.9PH

https://www.btcguild.com/index.php?page=pool_stats
BTCGuild reported speed (calculated by rate of shares hashed): 12.0PH

http://blockchain.info/pools
BTCGuild reported share of total network (calculated by rate of blocks turned in): 7%

149.9 * .07 = 10.4PH = 12PH - 1.6PH missing blocks

Now of course this can be explained by bad luck, but on how many pools can this bad luck occur.

Also note that the share of network blocks turned in is 9% for two individual unidentified addresses, and 12% completely unknown to blockchain.info.

Obviously there are private players out there, but are they 21% of the actual hashing capacity?

Last link: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-10k.png

A lot of blocks sure are being turned in now that we're in the last 300 blocks before the difficulty change.


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August 06, 2014, 11:00:41 PM
 #16


A lot of blocks sure are being turned in now that we're in the last 300 blocks before the difficulty change.


Mostly by Ghash and DiscusFish.
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August 07, 2014, 02:55:41 AM
 #17

While I agree you should not make rash decisions and jump out of your pool based on your payout dipping due to variance.  There does seem to be some suspicious patterns occuring.

Also note that the share of network blocks turned in is 9% for two individual unidentified addresses, and 12% completely unknown to blockchain.info.

Obviously there are private players out there, but are they 21% of the actual hashing capacity?


Organofcorti does a lot of block solve analysis and identification of unknown hash power in his weekly reporting. You will find some answers to your questions there. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77000.0

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Bitsaurus
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August 07, 2014, 11:55:04 AM
 #18

While I agree you should not make rash decisions and jump out of your pool based on your payout dipping due to variance.  There does seem to be some suspicious patterns occuring.

Mining Pools on the other hand typically calculate their hash rate based on the number of shares turned in.  For example: https://www.btcguild.com/index.php?page=pool_stats and http://eligius.st/~gateway/stats/recent-blocks

Interestingly both of those pools have had an increase of their hash rate, and a drop in pool luck over the same time frame.

<TinFoilHatOn: ConspiracyTheory>

What if a major pool, or private miner (Ghash, CoinTerra, etc), mined with half of their hardware on a public pool but executed a withholding attack on the pool?  They would collect BTC rewards for the other blocks found by the public pool, but withhold all blocks found and transfer thier BTC rewards to their own pool.  This would make the public pool's luck look bad, and their own pool luck look good. 

They could even delay the block release until a time when their own pool luck was bad, or the public pool's luck was good, to prevent it from looking too obvious.  This delay would cause the entire combined network hash speed to appear much lower than it actually is, at least until they release the found blocks.  They would only need to release them before the difficulty increased when the blocks might become invalid.

</TinFoilHatOn: ConspiracyTheory>


Disclaimer: I have done no research beyond the links listed above, and this is pure speculation.

Now that I see Ghash is also paying out less than expected I have to go "hmmm"...and do more research.

http://www.bitcoincharts.com/
Current network speed (calculated by rate of blocks turned in): 147.9PH

https://www.btcguild.com/index.php?page=pool_stats
BTCGuild reported speed (calculated by rate of shares hashed): 12.0PH

http://blockchain.info/pools
BTCGuild reported share of total network (calculated by rate of blocks turned in): 7%

149.9 * .07 = 10.4PH = 12PH - 1.6PH missing blocks

Now of course this can be explained by bad luck, but on how many pools can this bad luck occur.

Also note that the share of network blocks turned in is 9% for two individual unidentified addresses, and 12% completely unknown to blockchain.info.

Obviously there are private players out there, but are they 21% of the actual hashing capacity?

Last link: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-lin-10k.png

A lot of blocks sure are being turned in now that we're in the last 300 blocks before the difficulty change.

While I would rarely ever defend ghash I do not see any suspicious pattern.  Please point to a specific time period or block sequence where you think they might have been withholding solves for the pool.

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August 25, 2014, 03:36:48 AM
 #19

Blocks 317321 and 317304 were found by Ghash.io according to blockchain and not orphaned.

Those same 2 blocks are not even on the list of blocks found on ghash.io ( completely missing for the list ).

I imagine it is just some glitch as I don't think any big pool like ghash would think they could get away with hiding 2 blocks, eventually someone would spot them.


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August 25, 2014, 03:42:01 AM
 #20

Look at block 317304 and block 317321.  According to blockchain.info it was solved by ghash.io, according to ghash.io they did not solve it so they aren't paying miners for it.  Those are the only 2 out of the last 100 blocks as I only just checked because someone else noticed it first.  

It could be just 2 blocks that they kept for themselves either because their software is broken (again) or because they needed an extra ~$25k for hookers and blow.  I really dont know but it does make me want to dig deeper into which blocks they have paid on and which ones they should have paid on.  If it is 2% of all blocks then there is a serious problem in not disclosing that to people, if they are going to charge a fee they need to declare it and not claim 0% pool fee.


Edit: ha! beat me to it
Edit 2: I am currently pulling blocks from blockchain.info associated with ghash.io to see what is going on.  I will also look at what IPs were used to see if one is particularly bad about it or not.  I am going to go back a couple hundred more blocks and if I dont see anything give up.  Program is running now to do all this.

Edit 3: in the last 167 blocks solved by ghash/cex pool only those 2 did not get paid out.  They still have not been at the time of this writing.
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