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Author Topic: "Bitcoins are not good for anything besides trading."  (Read 5371 times)
Tril
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May 10, 2011, 05:40:25 PM
 #21

Hey, i'm new to bitcoin, but i'm fairly sure you've answered my only question.

I was under the impression that the bitcoins we generated were actually useful to someone, somewhere, not as a trading currency but actually because they can be used as a tool in cryptography or similar profession.

I understand now that i'm wrong in this assumption? - Bit coins are only useful for trading because they're easily provable to have been generated in the same network and using the same program as everyone else's bitcoins? How disappointing. While i understand that such a proof-of-work (Or, should i say, 'Proof of having done some pointless work in standardized form') is very suitable as a  'Currency' in that it is difficult to counterfeit, and easily transported, it is nethertheless worthless as a $100USD bill in actually creating something useful to humans, as opposed to trading for something that *IS* useful.

Please correct me if i'm wrong.

Yes, bitcoins can only be used for trading. That's because they embody the concept of money exactly: Store of value, unit of account, medium of exchange.  They do these things well, and nothing else.  That's the epitome of an elegant system.  It's not more complicated than it needs to be, because it's focused on its intent.  By making bitcoins ONLY operate as money, Satoshi subtly jabs at all other money which has other purposes.  Fiat (taxes), gold (jewelry), all these things detract from the essence of money.  Using money to fund government means it gets devalued, and degrades its owner's status.  Using money to make jewelry means it's envied, and elevates its owner's status.  With bitcoin all you can do is spend it.  There's no other reason to keep it unless you can conceive an actual or hypothetical trade to perform in the future.  This will keep bitcoins liquid, since you will trade them away when you find a trade you want to make.  Therefore, you will tend to be able to get your hands on some when you need them.  Using money as money keeps the owner's status refreshingly neutral.  If you have bitcoins and find they're not useful, that means it's time to sell.  If you have money and find it's not useful, that means it's time to look for some true value in life.
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May 10, 2011, 06:01:10 PM
 #22

Precisely. Western Union, Moneygram, banks, etc. make money despite despite their 19th century mindsets.
Bitcoin is better than they are in almost every way except scale.

Even if no one ever buys a physical object with Bitcoin, the ability to transfer money worldwide and cash it in at a BTC/Fiat exchange will keep the market active.  After that, I find it hard to imagine that immigrants won't want to be paid in BTC (easily sent home, not on paper, tax...), that drug dealers won't just find it so much more convenient as a strategic reserve, that microservice providers in India won't accept BTC...
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May 10, 2011, 06:49:27 PM
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Precisely. Western Union, Moneygram, banks, etc. make money despite despite their 19th century mindsets.
Bitcoin is better than they are in almost every way except scale.

Even if no one ever buys a physical object with Bitcoin, the ability to transfer money worldwide and cash it in at a BTC/Fiat exchange will keep the market active.  After that, I find it hard to imagine that immigrants won't want to be paid in BTC (easily sent home, not on paper, tax...), that drug dealers won't just find it so much more convenient as a strategic reserve, that microservice providers in India won't accept BTC...

This is really where it's going to strike as a valuable service first...the places where the standardized big dog currencies label as a "black market"

If you think I've been helpful, toss me a few bitcoin -  1J2bbukPKFrwEfk4iHueKfLfFBXLSNGnTi
dishwara
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May 10, 2011, 07:04:03 PM
 #24

Precisely. Western Union, Moneygram, banks, etc. make money despite despite their 19th century mindsets.
Bitcoin is better than they are in almost every way except scale.

Even if no one ever buys a physical object with Bitcoin, the ability to transfer money worldwide and cash it in at a BTC/Fiat exchange will keep the market active.  After that, I find it hard to imagine that immigrants won't want to be paid in BTC (easily sent home, not on paper, tax...), that drug dealers won't just find it so much more convenient as a strategic reserve, that microservice providers in India won't accept BTC...

India?
if you have guts come with location.
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May 12, 2011, 12:32:05 PM
 #25

Hey, i'm new to bitcoin, but i'm fairly sure you've answered my only question.

I was under the impression that the bitcoins we generated were actually useful to someone, somewhere, not as a trading currency but actually because they can be used as a tool in cryptography or similar profession.

I understand now that i'm wrong in this assumption? - Bit coins are only useful for trading because they're easily provable to have been generated in the same network and using the same program as everyone else's bitcoins? How disappointing. While i understand that such a proof-of-work (Or, should i say, 'Proof of having done some pointless work in standardized form') is very suitable as a  'Currency' in that it is difficult to counterfeit, and easily transported, it is nethertheless worthless as a $100USD bill in actually creating something useful to humans, as opposed to trading for something that *IS* useful.

Please correct me if i'm wrong.

Yes, bitcoins can only be used for trading. That's because they embody the concept of money exactly: Store of value, unit of account, medium of exchange.  They do these things well, and nothing else.  That's the epitome of an elegant system.  It's not more complicated than it needs to be, because it's focused on its intent.  By making bitcoins ONLY operate as money, Satoshi subtly jabs at all other money which has other purposes.  Fiat (taxes), gold (jewelry), all these things detract from the essence of money.  Using money to fund government means it gets devalued, and degrades its owner's status.  Using money to make jewelry means it's envied, and elevates its owner's status.  With bitcoin all you can do is spend it.  There's no other reason to keep it unless you can conceive an actual or hypothetical trade to perform in the future.  This will keep bitcoins liquid, since you will trade them away when you find a trade you want to make.  Therefore, you will tend to be able to get your hands on some when you need them.  Using money as money keeps the owner's status refreshingly neutral.  If you have bitcoins and find they're not useful, that means it's time to sell.  If you have money and find it's not useful, that means it's time to look for some true value in life.

While you have a very nice philosophical argument there, and i'm sure that some people would be sufficiently bedazzled at the seemingly perfect nature of the bitcoin (the 'essence' of money. HARDLY, the 'essence' of money is a representation of material goods and services, not as the current day fiat types), but coming back to reality for just a moment: the only thing that gives this currency value, is that other people think this currency has value. This is a weak philosophy. Even fiat currencies are MUCH more secure against widespread collapse of value, simply because while wages are still being given out in a currency, and the government still accepts payment in that currency, it has real-world value. Even if its a fraction of what it used to represent. Bitcoins have no such safety net, and from a "Greenist" philosophy, is an unneeded waste of processing, as well as electrical power. Aside from arguing that a bitcoin is easier to trade than fiat, this entire Bitcoin project, is nothing more than a sophisticated form of gambling the size of which has never been seen before. Only, the value of the currency is on its way up. When the end of the currency comes, and people start to realise soon there will be no more bitcoins, the economy will collapse. Afterall, money cannot be made out of nothing. You nailed it yourself, "With bitcoin all you can do is spend it." - No seller will accept purchases made with bitcoin untill he's sure HE has other sellers he can buy from.
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May 13, 2011, 05:36:57 AM
 #26


Aside from arguing that a bitcoin is easier to trade than fiat, this entire Bitcoin project, is nothing more than a sophisticated form of gambling the size of which has never been seen before.

You must not have been paying attention to the stock market?  Or for more pure gambling, the futures market.

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May 13, 2011, 08:58:12 AM
 #27

I bought diapers. I would have $500 now, almost 3x.

Do I care? Not even the least. I used it as I chose. I will again purchase what I need soon. And when I tally up the lost opportunity, it won't mean a thing. I prefer a healthy bitcoin over a bloated one and more people will do the same.

Diskcoin, cyclecoin, bandcoin, and servcoin will be the threshold and the crossing will never be reversed.

Proposal: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=11541.msg162881#msg162881
Inception: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/296
Goal: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=12536.0
Means: Code, donations, and brutal criticism. I've got a thick skin. 1Gc3xCHAzwvTDnyMW3evBBr5qNRDN3DRpq
Justsomeforumuser
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May 14, 2011, 01:32:07 PM
 #28

Quote
coming back to reality for just a moment: the only thing that gives this currency value, is that other people think this currency has value. This is a weak philosophy. Even fiat currencies are MUCH more secure against widespread collapse of value, simply because while wages are still being given out in a currency, and the government still accepts payment in that currency, it has real-world value. Even if its a fraction of what it used to represent. Bitcoins have no such safety net, and from a "Greenist" philosophy, is an unneeded waste of processing, as well as electrical power. Aside from arguing that a bitcoin is easier to trade than fiat, this entire Bitcoin project, is nothing more than a sophisticated form of gambling the size of which has never been seen before. Only, the value of the currency is on its way up. When the end of the currency comes, and people start to realise soon there will be no more bitcoins, the economy will collapse. Afterall, money cannot be made out of nothing. You nailed it yourself, "With bitcoin all you can do is spend it." - No seller will accept purchases made with bitcoin untill he's sure HE has other sellers he can buy from.

Thank you for quite literally addressing 1:1 my thoughts.

My related post on this: http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=8190.msg120531#msg120531

Would love to hear more on this.
 
I am strongly encouraged by this all still lasting a little while longer as long as I read posts stating that people are still hoarding(i.e. are withholding supply) while others still join the rush to "free money"..

My thoughts: exploit it while it's hot, make sure to get it while it can get got..

Ho-Hum.
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May 14, 2011, 06:17:24 PM
 #29

Thank you for quite literally addressing 1:1 my thoughts.

My related post on this: http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=8190.msg120531#msg120531

Would love to hear more on this.
 
I am strongly encouraged by this all still lasting a little while longer as long as I read posts stating that people are still hoarding(i.e. are withholding supply) while others still join the rush to "free money"..

My thoughts: exploit it while it's hot, make sure to get it while it can get got..

You're forgeting that there's a culture here as well. I'm gonna buy diapers again, regardless where it goes this month.

Proposal: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=11541.msg162881#msg162881
Inception: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/296
Goal: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=12536.0
Means: Code, donations, and brutal criticism. I've got a thick skin. 1Gc3xCHAzwvTDnyMW3evBBr5qNRDN3DRpq
grondilu
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May 14, 2011, 06:49:55 PM
 #30

"bitcoins are not good for anything besides trading."

How stupid is this assertion, seriously!

When I hear it, I can't help thinking "yeah but trading is what money is about, you moron!"

It is just as silly as saying:

"a telephone is not good for anything besides talking to people."

pff...
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May 14, 2011, 07:54:59 PM
 #31

"bitcoins are not good for anything besides trading."

How stupid is this assertion, seriously!

When I hear it, I can't help thinking "yeah but trading is what money is about, you moron!"

It is just as silly as saying:

"a telephone is not good for anything besides talking to people."

pff...


my hero

Proposal: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=11541.msg162881#msg162881
Inception: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/296
Goal: http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=12536.0
Means: Code, donations, and brutal criticism. I've got a thick skin. 1Gc3xCHAzwvTDnyMW3evBBr5qNRDN3DRpq
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