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Author Topic: bitcoin changing my ideology from socialism to libertarianism! What about you?  (Read 33464 times)
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October 05, 2014, 10:54:59 PM
 #521

Evolve to a higher intellectual being, to see a human as a human without prejudice, understand the map is not the territory, the word is not the thing and live in peace.

Someone in a 'mental state of water' has no ideology. One exist as human that has natural laws and do no harm to others.

Actually it doesn't matter if a person has "a mental state of water" the person probably still have views and opinions.
If the person has views and opinions we can place him/her in a ideology.



Everyone has their own opinions and views. You can have 500 and what are the odds that 2 people or more will have exactly the same 500?

My views and opinions are my own, i do not require it to be under the word 'ideology' as i do not seek to imposed it on others.

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October 06, 2014, 01:27:49 AM
 #522

You can try, but I'd like to think most of us have beliefs, opinions and values that transcend conveniently boxed labels.
Heck, even dogmatic religious fundamentalists are hard to pin down ideologically.

It's naive to think that you somehow have ideas and opinions that are not covered by the ideology spectrum.
I bet you have a opinion on taxation.

Do you want limited taxation? Then you are a social liberal. Do you want no taxation at all? Then you are a libertarian.

It is however possible to have ideas that mixes several ideologies. Thats why we have mixes like social liberalism.

Everyone has their own opinions and views. You can have 500 and what are the odds that 2 people or more will have exactly the same 500?

My views and opinions are my own, i do not require it to be under the word 'ideology' as i do not seek to imposed it on others.

If you don't want your views to be imposed on others I would say you are a Anarchist, which is a ideology.

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October 06, 2014, 01:33:07 AM
 #523

I've personally always believed in the libertarianist side and never really liked socialism. That's part of the reason why Bitcoin piqued my interests a few years ago.
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October 06, 2014, 02:38:23 AM
 #524

I've personally always believed in the libertarianist side and never really liked socialism. That's part of the reason why Bitcoin piqued my interests a few years ago.

see how your ideology rewards you... you are given golden opportunities cheap(early btc adoption) for being a libertarian.. but what would a socialist get?... maybe free food coupons.
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October 06, 2014, 03:36:39 AM
 #525

You can try, but I'd like to think most of us have beliefs, opinions and values that transcend conveniently boxed labels.
Heck, even dogmatic religious fundamentalists are hard to pin down ideologically.

It's naive to think that you somehow have ideas and opinions that are not covered by the ideology spectrum.
I bet you have a opinion on taxation.

Do you want limited taxation? Then you are a social liberal. Do you want no taxation at all? Then you are a libertarian.

It is however possible to have ideas that mixes several ideologies. Thats why we have mixes like social liberalism.


Actually, it is perfectly logical to assume that my "ideas and opinions" are not constrained within specific categories determine by a only few of variables, reminiscent of the personality or sex quizzes found in Cleo or Cosmo.

And just for the record, it is naive, not to mention dangerous, to think that all libertarians share the same views concerning taxation.
Do you think David Nolan, the founder of the U.S. Libertarian Party, is a social liberal (?), considering he believes that not all taxes are deleterious, and is actually in favor of land tax?
What about the geolibertarian community as a whole, which believe that all natural resources should be taxed? Are they not libertarians?
Let's not forget the green libertarians, whose wants corporations to be taxed based on their impact to the ecosystem - consumption of natural resources, pollution, usage of public utilities, etc.
Even Ron Paul, flagbearer of the anti-taxation paleolibertarian movement and mouthpiece of Lew Rockwell, is supportive of excise, consumption and national sales taxes.

Labels are for census takers and political bodies. There exists no hard lines in the sand, only a wildly diverging and fluid spectrum.
Take a look at a variation of the Vosem Chart below, derived from the Pournelle chart.
As soon as you begin to realize the complex spectrum of beliefs that we could potentially inhabit, consider that the chart are also limited, only capturing a facet of our thinking.
And then, compared the ideologies of political parties from different geographic regions. For instance, the leftist ideology as defined in American politics inhabits a remarkably similar spectrum as those of center-right Europe.



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October 06, 2014, 04:54:29 PM
 #526

Actually, it is perfectly logical to assume that my "ideas and opinions" are not constrained within specific categories determine by a only few of variables, reminiscent of the personality or sex quizzes found in Cleo or Cosmo.

And just for the record, it is naive, not to mention dangerous, to think that all libertarians share the same views concerning taxation.
Do you think David Nolan, the founder of the U.S. Libertarian Party, is a social liberal (?), considering he believes that not all taxes are deleterious, and is actually in favor of land tax?
What about the geolibertarian community as a whole, which believe that all natural resources should be taxed? Are they not libertarians?
Let's not forget the green libertarians, whose wants corporations to be taxed based on their impact to the ecosystem - consumption of natural resources, pollution, usage of public utilities, etc.
Even Ron Paul, flagbearer of the anti-taxation paleolibertarian movement and mouthpiece of Lew Rockwell, is supportive of excise, consumption and national sales taxes.


Not all libertarians have the same view on taxation that is true. But thats because within the libertarian movement there is several underlying political philosophies.
Most people in the movement (including the people you just mentioned) I would label "minarchists" because they want limited government.
Another group of the movement are the "anarchists" they want no government at all.
It's important to know the difference between anarchists and minarchists since they want completely different things. Even though both groups call themselves "libertarians" they are based on different political philosophies.

I think it's dangerous not to use labels when you describe peoples views. Just look at Rand Paul, he says he's a libertarian but in reality he's more of a conservative.


Labels are for census takers and political bodies. There exists no hard lines in the sand, only a wildly diverging and fluid spectrum.
Take a look at a variation of the Vosem Chart below, derived from the Pournelle chart.

Yes of course charts are always going to be limited but that doesn't mean we cannot identify which ideologies our views fit in.
Instead of looking through charts you should study the ideas and opinions of these politicians and see where they fit in.
Most of the time politicians want you to believe they are not part of "left" and "right" so they can get more votes.

As soon as you begin to realize the complex spectrum of beliefs that we could potentially inhabit, consider that the chart are also limited, only capturing a facet of our thinking.
And then, compared the ideologies of political parties from different geographic regions. For instance, the leftist ideology as defined in American politics inhabits a remarkably similar spectrum as those of center-right Europe.

It's not surprising that what Americans believe are "leftist" ideas are considered "center-right" in Europe.
That's because the US has a history of limited government and Europe have a history of social democracy.


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October 06, 2014, 05:00:49 PM
 #527

Let's all take a moment to learn about Ayn Rand, the author/philosopher behind modern "market libertarianism".

Remember Aaron Swartz, a 26 year old computer scientist who died defending the free flow of information.
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October 06, 2014, 05:31:05 PM
 #528

Let's all take a moment to learn about Ayn Rand, the author/philosopher behind modern "market libertarianism".

a perfect example of how the crony capitalist pseudo socialist society brain washes its people and making them to speak against free markets...

98% humans are selfish individuals.. the best system is the one that rewards the selfish desires  of the individual...

society and system should not be structured  to the likings of those altruistic 2% mirror neuron activated  people.
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October 06, 2014, 05:59:56 PM
 #529

98% humans are selfish individuals.. the best system is the one that rewards the selfish desires  of the individual...
Do yourself and the internet a favor: read more, learn more, think more, and talk less.

Remember Aaron Swartz, a 26 year old computer scientist who died defending the free flow of information.
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October 06, 2014, 09:47:56 PM
 #530

There's more than a passing resemblance here, I think you will agree :-








I rest my case  Cool
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October 07, 2014, 10:59:55 AM
 #531

Actually, it is perfectly logical to assume that my "ideas and opinions" are not constrained within specific categories determine by a only few of variables, reminiscent of the personality or sex quizzes found in Cleo or Cosmo.

And just for the record, it is naive, not to mention dangerous, to think that all libertarians share the same views concerning taxation.
Do you think David Nolan, the founder of the U.S. Libertarian Party, is a social liberal (?), considering he believes that not all taxes are deleterious, and is actually in favor of land tax?
What about the geolibertarian community as a whole, which believe that all natural resources should be taxed? Are they not libertarians?
Let's not forget the green libertarians, whose wants corporations to be taxed based on their impact to the ecosystem - consumption of natural resources, pollution, usage of public utilities, etc.
Even Ron Paul, flagbearer of the anti-taxation paleolibertarian movement and mouthpiece of Lew Rockwell, is supportive of excise, consumption and national sales taxes.


Not all libertarians have the same view on taxation that is true. But thats because within the libertarian movement there is several underlying political philosophies.
Most people in the movement (including the people you just mentioned) I would label "minarchists" because they want limited government.
Another group of the movement are the "anarchists" they want no government at all.
It's important to know the difference between anarchists and minarchists since they want completely different things. Even though both groups call themselves "libertarians" they are based on different political philosophies.

I think it's dangerous not to use labels when you describe peoples views. Just look at Rand Paul, he says he's a libertarian but in reality he's more of a conservative.


Labels are for census takers and political bodies. There exists no hard lines in the sand, only a wildly diverging and fluid spectrum.
Take a look at a variation of the Vosem Chart below, derived from the Pournelle chart.

Yes of course charts are always going to be limited but that doesn't mean we cannot identify which ideologies our views fit in.
Instead of looking through charts you should study the ideas and opinions of these politicians and see where they fit in.
Most of the time politicians want you to believe they are not part of "left" and "right" so they can get more votes.

Respectfully, but isn't this is just more labels to reconcile the gap between limited government and total anarchy, and an attempt to pigeonhole people like Ron Paul?

Some constitutionalist libertarians have tried to associate Paul with minarchism as a method to explain away some of his more statist positions.
Keep in mind, he has never professed to be one. Keep in mind also that Murray Rothbard, the founder of U.S. paleolibertarianism movement that Paul is influenced by, is what some would label to be an anarcho capitalist.

In addition, many senior libertarians frown upon the concept entirely. Per Bylund, an Associated Scholar with the Mises Institute, once wrote that "minarchist libertarians are nothing but gutless wimps; they are statist socialists with a fetish for smaller government."

So how would should we accurately label Ron Paul?

Considering he is a devout Christian, I would say he believes in the divine authority of governments. Also, since Paul is in favor of  (just of the top of my head) legislating morality (pro-life, DOMA, DADT, etc.) and military adventurism (voted for AUMF), can we surmise that he has conservative/right wing tendencies? Dick Morris once said that Paul's non-interventionalist foreign policy is neoliberalist. To take that a little bit further, his support of legalizing drugs screams of liberalism.

Would a more accurate description of Paul's ideology be something like constitutionalist-right wing-conservative-deontological libertarian-Christian fundamentalist-liberal?
Or should we just agree that this does a complete disservice to Paul's complex ideology?


As soon as you begin to realize the complex spectrum of beliefs that we could potentially inhabit, consider that the chart are also limited, only capturing a facet of our thinking.
And then, compared the ideologies of political parties from different geographic regions. For instance, the leftist ideology as defined in American politics inhabits a remarkably similar spectrum as those of center-right Europe.

It's not surprising that what Americans believe are "leftist" ideas are considered "center-right" in Europe.
That's because the US has a history of limited government and Europe have a history of social democracy.



How would you reconcile this theory in comparing the pro-market, limited government American right wing and Europe's populist, nationalist and pro social welfare right wing?
It can't work both ways, right?


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October 07, 2014, 11:08:29 AM
 #532

see how your ideology rewards you... you are given golden opportunities cheap(early btc adoption) for being a libertarian.. but what would a socialist get?... maybe free food coupons.

Socialism is very rewarding if you are in on the ground floor and have control of the power used to keep the people in line. Then you become a master of people and can get all sorts of perks that you will not allow your followers to have.

First seastead company actually selling seasteads: Ocean Builders https://ocean.builders  Of course we accept bitcoin.
Seastead talk at http://seasteadtalk.org
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October 07, 2014, 01:59:42 PM
 #533

see how your ideology rewards you... you are given golden opportunities cheap(early btc adoption) for being a libertarian.. but what would a socialist get?... maybe free food coupons.

Socialism is very rewarding if you are in on the ground floor and have control of the power used to keep the people in line. Then you become a master of people and can get all sorts of perks that you will not allow your followers to have.

And the greatest power the socialists have is their monopoly on money.  When the world switches to a form of money that can't be confiscated or created at will, their charade is over.  Smiley

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."   - Henry Ford
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October 07, 2014, 02:09:01 PM
 #534

see how your ideology rewards you... you are given golden opportunities cheap(early btc adoption) for being a libertarian.. but what would a socialist get?... maybe free food coupons.

Socialism is very rewarding if you are in on the ground floor and have control of the power used to keep the people in line. Then you become a master of people and can get all sorts of perks that you will not allow your followers to have.

And the greatest power the socialists have is their monopoly on money.  When the world switches to a form of money that can't be confiscated or created at will, their charade is over.  Smiley

and then men will be free
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October 07, 2014, 02:27:04 PM
 #535

98% humans are selfish individuals.. the best system is the one that rewards the selfish desires  of the individual...
Do yourself and the internet a favor: read more, learn more, think more, and talk less.

Thanks for your advice, as you said I am going to read more, think more , so I  bought these from amazon just now

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October 07, 2014, 02:39:58 PM
 #536

those books verge on pseudoscience.

looking at socialism and libertarianism as exclusionary ideologies is inherent dogmatic, and portrays a shallow political philosophy. it is more fitting to think of the values you wish to promote such as equality, liberty or security. does your concept of liberty include the right to deny freedom to others even through non-violent means? freedom for the pike is death for the minnows. for instance the difference behind the GPL and MIT licenses. does your concept of freedom mean freedom from external constraint, or freedom for the individual to fulfil their potential?
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October 07, 2014, 02:44:26 PM
 #537

does your concept of freedom mean freedom from external constraint, or freedom for the individual to fulfil their potential?

freedom from the initiation of force

socialism rewards initiating force

First seastead company actually selling seasteads: Ocean Builders https://ocean.builders  Of course we accept bitcoin.
Seastead talk at http://seasteadtalk.org
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October 07, 2014, 02:49:02 PM
 #538

those books verge on pseudoscience.

looking at socialism and libertarianism as exclusionary ideologies is inherent dogmatic, and portrays a shallow political philosophy. it is more fitting to think of the values you wish to promote such as equality, liberty or security. does your concept of liberty include the right to deny freedom to others even through non-violent means? freedom for the pike is death for the minnows. for instance the difference behind the GPL and MIT licenses. does your concept of freedom mean freedom from external constraint, or freedom for the individual to fulfil their potential?

How does one deny freedom to others without violence?

"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."   - Henry Ford
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October 07, 2014, 03:17:30 PM
 #539

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_liberty
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October 07, 2014, 03:45:19 PM
 #540

Bitcoin turned me into a "fuckist":

Fuck everything and everyone except that which cannot be fucked with (i.e. the Blockchain).
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