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Author Topic: Scientific proof that God exists?  (Read 805009 times)
Astargath
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September 15, 2017, 10:02:59 PM
 #8181


You have to define what complexity means. The fact that something is complex doesn't mean it was created by a superior being. The complexity in a human being is formed in it's core by atoms, which are also formed by electrons, protons etc etc which aren't really complex. Together they can make up something pretty complex but that doesn't mean anything. You are just assuming everything. You are also assuming that it has to be a god because it's our best definition which makes no sense. It's a made up definition. Any other god, aliens, other superior beings could fit in that category as well.

The fact that you are unable to use a dictionary, doesn't mean I have to define anything. Get a family member or roommate to look "complexity" up for you in the dictionary.

Once you have the definition of complexity firmly embedded in your mind, then make one of those atoms you are talking about. No, I don't mean manipulate one. I mean make one. Like, create it. Why would I want you to do this? Just so that you can see that parts of an atom are not nearly as simple as our names for them.

Cool

Again invoking some sort of authority. Just because humans can't make certain things doesn't mean a god created them. You jump from, this is complex to this is complex therefore a god must have created it. What I'm saying is that an atom only is less complex than a full human body for example. And the parts that make the atom are less complex than the atom itself and if you keep digging you get to the least complex part.

Also humans can manufacture matter. We can turn light into subatomic particles for example.

But you can't do it without some complexity.

Suddenly you like to play with complexity. Did you forget entropy? More complex doesn't come from less complex. This means that our complex life, emotion, thought, intelligence, etc., came from something more complex in the past. So, whatever placed the complexity into the universe when it started the universe, had all these qualities in greater amount than we have.

When you look at the great complexity around, you realize that the intelligence to make this complexity is way beyond anything that we could understand. Putting all the "qualities" that exist together in such a complex form indicates God.

You can talk like you are getting away from it. But you can't get away from it.

Cool

So I'm guessing the creator of god has to be much more complex as well, right?

You are the one that said you are guessing. If you are really guessing, than what you posted is right. If you are not, then it is wrong.

Is it not time to get on topic and discuss the scientific proof for (or against) God? Like many others, you have lots of room in the forum to post all kinds of religious threads about God. Why continue to do it in this one scientific thread about God? Are you really trying to state that science is a religion for you?

Cool

So you agree that god has a creator? Interesting.

I didn't say or imply that I think that God has a creator. You know it, yet you seem to claim that I said or implied such. Just goes to show your deceptiveness.

Cool

But what created god then? Since he is so complex as you claim, then something even more complex must have created him, right?

Science definitely has shown us that God controls complexity. But I haven't seen any science that has shown that God was created. Have you researched it?

Cool

It didn't at all. Science only shows us that there was a beginning to the universe, everything after that are just assumptions on your part. Saying it was god. It could have been a lot of other things, so no, science hasn't shown us that. Why don't you just admit your belief in god is purely based on faith and try desperately to prove his existence with science when you know you won't be able to.

If you want to stop at entropy, perhaps science only shows a beginning. But when you add complexity through cause and effect, science definitely shows us God.

Cool

No it doesn't. As I said, that points to multiple different possible causes and who knows how many more there are that we haven't thought of. It doesn't necessarily have to be god. It could be gods, could be any other creature that is complex enough to create a universe, a simulation etc etc. Just because you can't think of any other possible explanation it doesn't give you the right to say it's god.
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September 16, 2017, 12:02:54 AM
 #8182


You have to define what complexity means. The fact that something is complex doesn't mean it was created by a superior being. The complexity in a human being is formed in it's core by atoms, which are also formed by electrons, protons etc etc which aren't really complex. Together they can make up something pretty complex but that doesn't mean anything. You are just assuming everything. You are also assuming that it has to be a god because it's our best definition which makes no sense. It's a made up definition. Any other god, aliens, other superior beings could fit in that category as well.

The fact that you are unable to use a dictionary, doesn't mean I have to define anything. Get a family member or roommate to look "complexity" up for you in the dictionary.

Once you have the definition of complexity firmly embedded in your mind, then make one of those atoms you are talking about. No, I don't mean manipulate one. I mean make one. Like, create it. Why would I want you to do this? Just so that you can see that parts of an atom are not nearly as simple as our names for them.

Cool

Again invoking some sort of authority. Just because humans can't make certain things doesn't mean a god created them. You jump from, this is complex to this is complex therefore a god must have created it. What I'm saying is that an atom only is less complex than a full human body for example. And the parts that make the atom are less complex than the atom itself and if you keep digging you get to the least complex part.

Also humans can manufacture matter. We can turn light into subatomic particles for example.

But you can't do it without some complexity.

Suddenly you like to play with complexity. Did you forget entropy? More complex doesn't come from less complex. This means that our complex life, emotion, thought, intelligence, etc., came from something more complex in the past. So, whatever placed the complexity into the universe when it started the universe, had all these qualities in greater amount than we have.

When you look at the great complexity around, you realize that the intelligence to make this complexity is way beyond anything that we could understand. Putting all the "qualities" that exist together in such a complex form indicates God.

You can talk like you are getting away from it. But you can't get away from it.

Cool

So I'm guessing the creator of god has to be much more complex as well, right?

You are the one that said you are guessing. If you are really guessing, than what you posted is right. If you are not, then it is wrong.

Is it not time to get on topic and discuss the scientific proof for (or against) God? Like many others, you have lots of room in the forum to post all kinds of religious threads about God. Why continue to do it in this one scientific thread about God? Are you really trying to state that science is a religion for you?

Cool

So you agree that god has a creator? Interesting.

I didn't say or imply that I think that God has a creator. You know it, yet you seem to claim that I said or implied such. Just goes to show your deceptiveness.

Cool

But what created god then? Since he is so complex as you claim, then something even more complex must have created him, right?

Science definitely has shown us that God controls complexity. But I haven't seen any science that has shown that God was created. Have you researched it?

Cool

It didn't at all. Science only shows us that there was a beginning to the universe, everything after that are just assumptions on your part. Saying it was god. It could have been a lot of other things, so no, science hasn't shown us that. Why don't you just admit your belief in god is purely based on faith and try desperately to prove his existence with science when you know you won't be able to.

If you want to stop at entropy, perhaps science only shows a beginning. But when you add complexity through cause and effect, science definitely shows us God.

Cool

No it doesn't. As I said, that points to multiple different possible causes and who knows how many more there are that we haven't thought of. It doesn't necessarily have to be god. It could be gods, could be any other creature that is complex enough to create a universe, a simulation etc etc. Just because you can't think of any other possible explanation it doesn't give you the right to say it's god.

Multiple gods is out because they would have to be acting in such great concert, that they would essentially be one... like one corporation.

If we have a universe simulation, the complexity would be even greater. Because there is intelligence now, and there is entropy that has lowered the IQ from what it was thousands of years ago, that which put it all together would have been considered by people back then, to have greater intelligence than present people could understand it to have.

Scientifically speaking:
I don't know if it had two heads or any heads.
I don't know if it had hands.
I don't know if it had a beard.
I couldn't tell you if square would fit it.

There are thousands of questions that could be asked about it that we don't have scientific answers to. But the thing that it fits is what a God would have to be. And not just any idea of God. But an extremely great God, way beyond human understanding, just like the majority of the vast universe is beyond the understanding of mankind.

Perhaps if there were no intelligence in the universe, maybe then there wouldn't be any God. But because we have intelligence that has decreased over the millennia because of entropy, not only was the intelligence of man greater back then, but the intelligence of that which made the universe is far greater.

Intelligence smacks of reasoning ability. And reasoning ability that is as far beyond mankind as that which it would take to make a universe like ours, silently shouts "GOD" to anyone who can think.

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September 16, 2017, 12:07:14 AM
 #8183

Intelligence smacks of reasoning ability.

You need more than intelligence - intelligent people can still be brainwashed.

You also need curiosity to have reasoning ability.

No person can be intelligent, curious and believe in a god.

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September 16, 2017, 12:22:04 AM
 #8184

Intelligence smacks of reasoning ability.

You need more than intelligence - intelligent people can still be brainwashed.

You also need curiosity to have reasoning ability.

No person can be intelligent, curious and believe in a god.

Many people can be intelligent, curious, and understand the scientific proof that God exists.

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September 16, 2017, 12:24:31 AM
 #8185

Many people can be intelligent, curious, and understand the scientific proof that God exists.

No person can be intelligent, curious and believe in a god, even with your imaginary science.

You can be intelligent and gullible.

You can be curious and stupid.

But you can't be intelligent, curious and brainwashed.  Doesn't make sense.

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September 16, 2017, 12:30:53 AM
 #8186

Many people can be intelligent, curious, and understand the scientific proof that God exists.

No person can be intelligent, curious and believe in a god, even with your imaginary science.

You can be intelligent and gullible.

You can be curious and stupid.

But you can't be intelligent, curious and brainwashed.  Doesn't make sense.

There are many, many scientists who believe in God, are intelligent, and are curious. You shoot your ideas down by saying silly things like your last post I have quoted here.

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September 16, 2017, 12:31:53 AM
 #8187

There are many, many scientists who believe in God, are intelligent, and are curious.

That's about as true as your fairy tale.  It's impossible.

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September 16, 2017, 12:35:49 AM
 #8188

There are many, many scientists who believe in God, are intelligent, and are curious.

That's about as true as your fairy tale.  It's impossible.

Sounds like you are missing a big chunk of the scientific world. But, it helps to understand where you are really coming from, a little.

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September 16, 2017, 12:37:23 AM
 #8189

Sounds like you are missing a big chunk of the scientific world. But, it helps to understand where you are really coming from, a little.

I have no idea what your scientific world consists of.  I can only analyze reality.


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September 16, 2017, 12:42:50 AM
 #8190

Sounds like you are missing a big chunk of the scientific world. But, it helps to understand where you are really coming from, a little.

I have no idea what your scientific world consists of.  I can only analyze reality.



Well, perhaps if you stop analyzing, and start reading statistics...

First worldwide survey of religion and science: No, not all scientists are atheists - https://phys.org/news/2015-12-worldwide-survey-religion-science-scientists.html

Study: 2 Million U.S. Scientists Identify As Evangelical - http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2014/february-web-only/study-2-million-scientists-identify-as-evangelical.html

Does anyone have any statistics on the number of scientists (Ph.D.-level researchers) who are Christian? - https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/3150/are-there-any-statistics-that-show-how-many-scientists-are-christians-or-otherwi

There are many more studies. Google it.

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September 16, 2017, 12:44:06 AM
 #8191

There are many more studies. Google it.

No thanks.  I am curious - not gullible.

Cool

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September 16, 2017, 12:47:19 AM
 #8192

There are many more studies. Google it.

No thanks.  I am curious - not gullible.

Cool

All right. So you have your own religion that includes only part of reality. But, at least we know it now.

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September 16, 2017, 12:48:48 AM
 #8193

There are many more studies. Google it.

No thanks.  I am curious - not gullible.

All right. So you have your own religion that includes only part of reality. But, at least we know it now.

Nope, I am not religious.

But if it helps your fairy tale to believe I am, go nuts. 

Cool

I'm into creating universes, smiting people, writing holy books and listening to Prayer Messages (PMs).
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September 16, 2017, 12:52:49 AM
 #8194

There are many more studies. Google it.

No thanks.  I am curious - not gullible.

All right. So you have your own religion that includes only part of reality. But, at least we know it now.

Nope, I am not religious.

But if it helps your fairy tale to believe I am, go nuts. 

Cool

So, part of your religion is non-religion. Number 6 at http://www.dictionary.com/browse/religion?s=t: "something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience:
to make a religion of fighting prejudice."

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September 16, 2017, 12:54:31 AM
 #8195

So, part of your religion is non-religion. Number 6 at http://www.dictionary.com/browse/religion?s=t: "something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience:
to make a religion of fighting prejudice."

Cool

Nope, I am not religious.

But if it helps your fairy tale to believe I am, go nuts.  

Cool

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September 16, 2017, 01:08:15 AM
 #8196

So, part of your religion is non-religion. Number 6 at http://www.dictionary.com/browse/religion?s=t: "something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience:
to make a religion of fighting prejudice."

Cool

Nope, I am not religious.

But if it helps your fairy tale to believe I am, go nuts.  

Cool

According to the definition of religion which I quoted on the previous page, the more adamantly you push your non-religion ideals, the more you make a religion out of it.

I was just the messenger to show you the definition. The more you are in denial, the stronger your religion becomes.

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September 16, 2017, 01:09:17 AM
 #8197

The more you are in denial, the stronger your religion becomes.

Well, I've said I'm not religious many times.

Your fairy tale, your rules I guess.

 Undecided

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September 16, 2017, 01:11:23 AM
 #8198

The more you are in denial, the stronger your religion becomes.

Well, I've said I'm not religious many times.

Your fairy tale, your rules I guess.

 Undecided

In other words, you have been quite religious at saying you are not religious.

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September 16, 2017, 01:12:45 AM
 #8199

In other words, you have been quite religious at saying you are not religious.

If that is your fairy tale, then yes. 

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September 16, 2017, 12:01:22 PM
 #8200


You have to define what complexity means. The fact that something is complex doesn't mean it was created by a superior being. The complexity in a human being is formed in it's core by atoms, which are also formed by electrons, protons etc etc which aren't really complex. Together they can make up something pretty complex but that doesn't mean anything. You are just assuming everything. You are also assuming that it has to be a god because it's our best definition which makes no sense. It's a made up definition. Any other god, aliens, other superior beings could fit in that category as well.

The fact that you are unable to use a dictionary, doesn't mean I have to define anything. Get a family member or roommate to look "complexity" up for you in the dictionary.

Once you have the definition of complexity firmly embedded in your mind, then make one of those atoms you are talking about. No, I don't mean manipulate one. I mean make one. Like, create it. Why would I want you to do this? Just so that you can see that parts of an atom are not nearly as simple as our names for them.

Cool

Again invoking some sort of authority. Just because humans can't make certain things doesn't mean a god created them. You jump from, this is complex to this is complex therefore a god must have created it. What I'm saying is that an atom only is less complex than a full human body for example. And the parts that make the atom are less complex than the atom itself and if you keep digging you get to the least complex part.

Also humans can manufacture matter. We can turn light into subatomic particles for example.

But you can't do it without some complexity.

Suddenly you like to play with complexity. Did you forget entropy? More complex doesn't come from less complex. This means that our complex life, emotion, thought, intelligence, etc., came from something more complex in the past. So, whatever placed the complexity into the universe when it started the universe, had all these qualities in greater amount than we have.

When you look at the great complexity around, you realize that the intelligence to make this complexity is way beyond anything that we could understand. Putting all the "qualities" that exist together in such a complex form indicates God.

You can talk like you are getting away from it. But you can't get away from it.

Cool

So I'm guessing the creator of god has to be much more complex as well, right?

You are the one that said you are guessing. If you are really guessing, than what you posted is right. If you are not, then it is wrong.

Is it not time to get on topic and discuss the scientific proof for (or against) God? Like many others, you have lots of room in the forum to post all kinds of religious threads about God. Why continue to do it in this one scientific thread about God? Are you really trying to state that science is a religion for you?

Cool

So you agree that god has a creator? Interesting.

I didn't say or imply that I think that God has a creator. You know it, yet you seem to claim that I said or implied such. Just goes to show your deceptiveness.

Cool

But what created god then? Since he is so complex as you claim, then something even more complex must have created him, right?

Science definitely has shown us that God controls complexity. But I haven't seen any science that has shown that God was created. Have you researched it?

Cool

It didn't at all. Science only shows us that there was a beginning to the universe, everything after that are just assumptions on your part. Saying it was god. It could have been a lot of other things, so no, science hasn't shown us that. Why don't you just admit your belief in god is purely based on faith and try desperately to prove his existence with science when you know you won't be able to.

If you want to stop at entropy, perhaps science only shows a beginning. But when you add complexity through cause and effect, science definitely shows us God.

Cool

No it doesn't. As I said, that points to multiple different possible causes and who knows how many more there are that we haven't thought of. It doesn't necessarily have to be god. It could be gods, could be any other creature that is complex enough to create a universe, a simulation etc etc. Just because you can't think of any other possible explanation it doesn't give you the right to say it's god.

Multiple gods is out because they would have to be acting in such great concert, that they would essentially be one... like one corporation.

If we have a universe simulation, the complexity would be even greater. Because there is intelligence now, and there is entropy that has lowered the IQ from what it was thousands of years ago, that which put it all together would have been considered by people back then, to have greater intelligence than present people could understand it to have.

Scientifically speaking:
I don't know if it had two heads or any heads.
I don't know if it had hands.
I don't know if it had a beard.
I couldn't tell you if square would fit it.

There are thousands of questions that could be asked about it that we don't have scientific answers to. But the thing that it fits is what a God would have to be. And not just any idea of God. But an extremely great God, way beyond human understanding, just like the majority of the vast universe is beyond the understanding of mankind.

Perhaps if there were no intelligence in the universe, maybe then there wouldn't be any God. But because we have intelligence that has decreased over the millennia because of entropy, not only was the intelligence of man greater back then, but the intelligence of that which made the universe is far greater.

Intelligence smacks of reasoning ability. And reasoning ability that is as far beyond mankind as that which it would take to make a universe like ours, silently shouts "GOD" to anyone who can think.

Cool

See how you just dismiss ideas because you want to? ''Multiple gods is out because they would have to be acting in such great concert, that they would essentially be one... like one corporation.''

No it's not out. Why would they need to act in a great concert? They would just need to act like humans act when they are building a bridge or a tower. I don't see how that disproves the idea of the possibility of different gods making this universe. All your scientific ''proof'' points out to a complex intelligent creator and that's it. You jump from that to god. I agree that if someone built the universe it had to be someone intelligent enough, obviously but that doesn't mean it's a god. It could just be a being that exists outside of our universe who is just far more advanced than us. We have advanced so much in the last years, imagine where humanity will be in 1000 years or in 1 million years, maybe we will create universes as well.
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