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Author Topic: Scientific proof that God exists?  (Read 815603 times)
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September 19, 2014, 05:24:52 AM
 #881

The evidence for God is great. The fact that most of people in the world believe in God or a god, is in itself great evidence. The machine quality of the universe suggests a Maker.

Most people in the world believed the world was flat. That didn't turn out to be great evidence.

That was 500 years ago. Five hundred years from now scientists will be amazed at the silly things scientists of the 21st century believed.

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September 19, 2014, 05:26:56 AM
 #882

Kinda pointless, cant prove such a thing scientifically.

Yes, but some people are going to keep on trying, just like some scientists keep on trying to prove something as silly as evolution.

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September 19, 2014, 05:39:39 AM
 #883

The evidence for God is great. The fact that most of people in the world believe in God or a god, is in itself great evidence. The machine quality of the universe suggests a Maker.

Most people in the world believed the world was flat. That didn't turn out to be great evidence.

That was 500 years ago. Five hundred years from now scientists will be amazed at the silly things scientists of the 21st century believed.

Smiley

But pretty sure they won't be thinking 2,000 year old beliefs are LESS silly  Wink

Kinda pointless, cant prove such a thing scientifically.

Yes, but some people are going to keep on trying, just like some scientists keep on trying to prove something as silly as evolution.

Smiley

Scientists aren't trying to prove evolution. First, they don't have to, and second, that's not how science works. Christian "science" gets an idea or an assumption and tries to prove or disprove it. Real actual science doesn't start with ideas or assumptions. It tests and collects data, and makes conclusions based on that data, whatever those conclusions may be. So, for example, christian "science" will start with the assumption that the earth is 6,000 years old, and will look specifically for evidence to support it. Actual science will make no assumptions about the age of the planet, and will take all evidence into consideration, regardless of what it says about the earth's age. That's why scientists don't need to prove evolution. The evidence they collect just keeps pointing to it already.

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September 19, 2014, 06:04:58 AM
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... That's why scientists don't need to prove evolution. The evidence they collect just keeps pointing to it already.

As scientists are able to collect more and different kinds of evidence, much of the other evidence points away from evolution. Then there are those scientists who interpret the evidence in a non-evolution direction.

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September 19, 2014, 02:31:55 PM
 #885

The evidence for God is great. The fact that most of people in the world believe in God or a god, is in itself great evidence. The machine quality of the universe suggests a Maker.

Most people in the world believed the world was flat. That didn't turn out to be great evidence.

That was 500 years ago. Five hundred years from now scientists will be amazed at the silly things scientists of the 21st century believed.

Smiley

But pretty sure they won't be thinking 2,000 year old beliefs are LESS silly  Wink

Kinda pointless, cant prove such a thing scientifically.

Yes, but some people are going to keep on trying, just like some scientists keep on trying to prove something as silly as evolution.

Smiley

Scientists aren't trying to prove evolution. First, they don't have to, and second, that's not how science works. Christian "science" gets an idea or an assumption and tries to prove or disprove it. Real actual science doesn't start with ideas or assumptions. It tests and collects data, and makes conclusions based on that data, whatever those conclusions may be. So, for example, christian "science" will start with the assumption that the earth is 6,000 years old, and will look specifically for evidence to support it. Actual science will make no assumptions about the age of the planet, and will take all evidence into consideration, regardless of what it says about the earth's age. That's why scientists don't need to prove evolution. The evidence they collect just keeps pointing to it already.

I disagree that there are scientists that aren't trying to prove their own beliefs.  Many (not all of course) do throw out evidence that points towards intelligent design, for example.  They filter everything from that lens and are often close minded to anything that points towards that.  Also, they come up with their own theories, not based on an observable evidence, for evolution but this is based on "faith" too.  They have not observed the big bang have they?  But they believe it as fact, when indeed it isn't a proven fact.  It is even taught as a fact to students today in many schools and that, to me, is a travesty.  It needs to be taught as it really is, a theory!  The act of even questioning the big bang causes these scientist to look down with their noses high in the air like whoever would dare question that is an idiot.


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September 19, 2014, 03:28:19 PM
 #886


... That's why scientists don't need to prove evolution. The evidence they collect just keeps pointing to it already.

As scientists are able to collect more and different kinds of evidence, much of the other evidence points away from evolution. Then there are those scientists who interpret the evidence in a non-evolution direction.

Smiley
I'm not sure what you mean? There has never been a single finding that is inconsistent with evolutionary theory. It would only take one finding to destroy a theory. That is why in science a theory is a powerful idea.

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September 19, 2014, 04:38:07 PM
 #887


... That's why scientists don't need to prove evolution. The evidence they collect just keeps pointing to it already.

As scientists are able to collect more and different kinds of evidence, much of the other evidence points away from evolution. Then there are those scientists who interpret the evidence in a non-evolution direction.

Smiley
I'm not sure what you mean? There has never been a single finding that is inconsistent with evolutionary theory. It would only take one finding to destroy a theory. That is why in science a theory is a powerful idea.

The ONLY reason that there has never been a finding that is inconsistent with evolutionary theory, is that evolutionary theory essentially (if not straight forwardly) says that every finding is consistent with evolutionary theory. The question is, how do we make multitudes of findings that don't seem to fit with each other in evolutionary theory, or each other in any kind of theory, so that they fit? And how do we do it in the light of many (most?) of those findings fitting creationism and who knows what other theories, as well? The point is, in this exact way, evolutionary theory has virtually proven that it is not worthy of even being called theory, to say nothing about having any kind of chance whatsoever of becoming law. Of course, there are going to be all kinds of scientists that think or say it is law. And there are all kinds of political scientists who say it is law no matter what they think, for other purposes.

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September 19, 2014, 05:10:12 PM
 #888

Aliens.... Exist... and a much better bet then if god Exists....


If God Exists.... why does he let the innocent suffer so much...

Example a young 3 year old child sick in hospitals all around the world...

and we are all made in the image of god.. no way if I was made in the image of god I would have his power... and then no children would be suffering..


The only thing god is... is a money maker for the church... and do not get me started on that one...

If you want to believe in something.. believe in KARMA and YOUR INNER FEELINGS.... and oh yer ALIENSSSSSSSSSS......


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September 19, 2014, 06:06:20 PM
 #889

Aliens.... Exist... and a much better bet then if god Exists....


If God Exists.... why does he let the innocent suffer so much...

Example a young 3 year old child sick in hospitals all around the world...

and we are all made in the image of god.. no way if I was made in the image of god I would have his power... and then no children would be suffering..


The only thing god is... is a money maker for the church... and do not get me started on that one...

If you want to believe in something.. believe in KARMA and YOUR INNER FEELINGS.... and oh yer ALIENSSSSSSSSSS......



Well, there is the main question.  I often think that the problem many people have (including several in the scientific community) isn't so much about the question of if God exists, it is more about if He does exist, how could he allow such suffering?

I am sure you have heard the typical debates on this matter.  It becomes more a question about free-will vs. God's intervention.  

My thoughts on it are as follows:

God creates the world.  God creates man.  Give man (Adam and Eve) free will to choose.  Man chooses not to obey God (eating forbidden fruit) then man is given consequences for that choice.  Sin enters the world because of that choice.  With sin (and Satan's influence) comes death, sickness, suffering, hate, murder and all of the other painful things we deal with on a daily basis.  But God provides hope and way to be freed from this sinful world we are currently in.  He promises to send His son to pay the penalty for the choices we have made and offers us eternal life free from these things.  Basically we have a gift of our sentence being pardoned if we so choose to accept it.  This life is temporary.  Eternity is the main goal we should be focused on.

All that said, do I often wonder why God doesn't intervene more often?  Should he have a "smite button" that he presses anytime we, as humans, choose to do evil or make choices that go against Him?  If He did that, I would already be smitten.  Wink  Thankfully, He is patient and forgiving.  He can heal sickness and I have seen Him do so at times, but He is more concerned about our eternal well being than our present physical well being.  Why doesn't he heal all the time?  Do I understand God's ways?  Of course not.  I can't.  But I can understand that He loves me, loves you, loves the world so much that He gave His son as a ransom for our sins so we can have hope.  That is enough for me.  And if I had a sick child in the hospital I would still have hope.  I have suffered abuse but I know Jesus was there with me.  He understands our pain and suffering and we do not have to endure it alone.  This life is not all that there is.  To me, the thought that this evil and sinful world is all we have is the most depressing thought of all.  As a Christian, it is the closest to hell I will ever be and it keeps everything in perspective.  This is also why Christians can come across as so pushy and desperate at times to convince others to see things the way we do.  We know this could be the closest thing to hell we experience as humans and we hope and pray others will see this and understand this and humbly turn back to God instead of being angry with Him.  The flip side?  This is the closest thing to heaven people who do not accept Jesus will experience.  (For those that do not get a chance to accept Jesus because they have never heard, were born in the jungle, die as babies, etc.  I firmly believe that they will still be given that chance in Sheol, after death.  God is fair.  He puts fairness in our hearts.  However, the Bible is vague about what that looks like and it is not a commonly held belief.  I think the black and white, heaven and hell translations is a bit too simplistic but I digress here.)

As for the "image of God"  we have a mind, a physical body and a soul or "spirit."  I believe it is the eternal soul that differentiates us.  We also have the ability to see good and evil and understand these things.  That is what I think of when I think about being created in God's image.   Thankfully we were not created all-powerful.  I can only imagine what the world would be like then. Wink  It might make for an interesting sci-fi movie though.

And yes, there are sinful people in churches doing evil things in God's name.  They will be judged harshly, more harshly than anyone else I believe, for doing these things when the final day of judgement arrives.  

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September 20, 2014, 04:30:23 AM
 #890

Aliens.... Exist... and a much better bet then if god Exists....


If God Exists.... why does he let the innocent suffer so much...

Example a young 3 year old child sick in hospitals all around the world...

and we are all made in the image of god.. no way if I was made in the image of god I would have his power... and then no children would be suffering..


The only thing god is... is a money maker for the church... and do not get me started on that one...

If you want to believe in something.. believe in KARMA and YOUR INNER FEELINGS.... and oh yer ALIENSSSSSSSSSS......



Well, there is the main question.  I often think that the problem many people have (including several in the scientific community) isn't so much about the question of if God exists, it is more about if He does exist, how could he allow such suffering?

I am sure you have heard the typical debates on this matter.  It becomes more a question about free-will vs. God's intervention.  

My thoughts on it are as follows:

God creates the world.  God creates man.  Give man (Adam and Eve) free will to choose.  Man chooses not to obey God (eating forbidden fruit) then man is given consequences for that choice.  Sin enters the world because of that choice.  With sin (and Satan's influence) comes death, sickness, suffering, hate, murder and all of the other painful things we deal with on a daily basis.  But God provides hope and way to be freed from this sinful world we are currently in.  He promises to send His son to pay the penalty for the choices we have made and offers us eternal life free from these things.  Basically we have a gift of our sentence being pardoned if we so choose to accept it.  This life is temporary.  Eternity is the main goal we should be focused on.

All that said, do I often wonder why God doesn't intervene more often?  Should he have a "smite button" that he presses anytime we, as humans, choose to do evil or make choices that go against Him?  If He did that, I would already be smitten.  Wink  Thankfully, He is patient and forgiving.  He can heal sickness and I have seen Him do so at times, but He is more concerned about our eternal well being than our present physical well being.  Why doesn't he heal all the time?  Do I understand God's ways?  Of course not.  I can't.  But I can understand that He loves me, loves you, loves the world so much that He gave His son as a ransom for our sins so we can have hope.  That is enough for me.  And if I had a sick child in the hospital I would still have hope.  I have suffered abuse but I know Jesus was there with me.  He understands our pain and suffering and we do not have to endure it alone.  This life is not all that there is.  To me, the thought that this evil and sinful world is all we have is the most depressing thought of all.  As a Christian, it is the closest to hell I will ever be and it keeps everything in perspective.  This is also why Christians can come across as so pushy and desperate at times to convince others to see things the way we do.  We know this could be the closest thing to hell we experience as humans and we hope and pray others will see this and understand this and humbly turn back to God instead of being angry with Him.  The flip side?  This is the closest thing to heaven people who do not accept Jesus will experience.  (For those that do not get a chance to accept Jesus because they have never heard, were born in the jungle, die as babies, etc.  I firmly believe that they will still be given that chance in Sheol, after death.  God is fair.  He puts fairness in our hearts.  However, the Bible is vague about what that looks like and it is not a commonly held belief.  I think the black and white, heaven and hell translations is a bit too simplistic but I digress here.)

As for the "image of God"  we have a mind, a physical body and a soul or "spirit."  I believe it is the eternal soul that differentiates us.  We also have the ability to see good and evil and understand these things.  That is what I think of when I think about being created in God's image.   Thankfully we were not created all-powerful.  I can only imagine what the world would be like then. Wink  It might make for an interesting sci-fi movie though.

And yes, there are sinful people in churches doing evil things in God's name.  They will be judged harshly, more harshly than anyone else I believe, for doing these things when the final day of judgement arrives.  

I understand and respect your Christian views.  With that, how do you explain the sometimes conflicting views of other religions?  Are the other 70% of the world’s population dammed to Hell because they don’t believe in your God? 
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September 20, 2014, 05:18:27 AM
 #891

Aliens.... Exist... and a much better bet then if god Exists....


If God Exists.... why does he let the innocent suffer so much...

Example a young 3 year old child sick in hospitals all around the world...

and we are all made in the image of god.. no way if I was made in the image of god I would have his power... and then no children would be suffering..


The only thing god is... is a money maker for the church... and do not get me started on that one...

If you want to believe in something.. believe in KARMA and YOUR INNER FEELINGS.... and oh yer ALIENSSSSSSSSSS......



Well, there is the main question.  I often think that the problem many people have (including several in the scientific community) isn't so much about the question of if God exists, it is more about if He does exist, how could he allow such suffering?

I am sure you have heard the typical debates on this matter.  It becomes more a question about free-will vs. God's intervention.  

My thoughts on it are as follows:

God creates the world.  God creates man.  Give man (Adam and Eve) free will to choose.  Man chooses not to obey God (eating forbidden fruit) then man is given consequences for that choice.  Sin enters the world because of that choice.  With sin (and Satan's influence) comes death, sickness, suffering, hate, murder and all of the other painful things we deal with on a daily basis.  But God provides hope and way to be freed from this sinful world we are currently in.  He promises to send His son to pay the penalty for the choices we have made and offers us eternal life free from these things.  Basically we have a gift of our sentence being pardoned if we so choose to accept it.  This life is temporary.  Eternity is the main goal we should be focused on.

All that said, do I often wonder why God doesn't intervene more often?  Should he have a "smite button" that he presses anytime we, as humans, choose to do evil or make choices that go against Him?  If He did that, I would already be smitten.  Wink  Thankfully, He is patient and forgiving.  He can heal sickness and I have seen Him do so at times, but He is more concerned about our eternal well being than our present physical well being.  Why doesn't he heal all the time?  Do I understand God's ways?  Of course not.  I can't.  But I can understand that He loves me, loves you, loves the world so much that He gave His son as a ransom for our sins so we can have hope.  That is enough for me.  And if I had a sick child in the hospital I would still have hope.  I have suffered abuse but I know Jesus was there with me.  He understands our pain and suffering and we do not have to endure it alone.  This life is not all that there is.  To me, the thought that this evil and sinful world is all we have is the most depressing thought of all.  As a Christian, it is the closest to hell I will ever be and it keeps everything in perspective.  This is also why Christians can come across as so pushy and desperate at times to convince others to see things the way we do.  We know this could be the closest thing to hell we experience as humans and we hope and pray others will see this and understand this and humbly turn back to God instead of being angry with Him.  The flip side?  This is the closest thing to heaven people who do not accept Jesus will experience.  (For those that do not get a chance to accept Jesus because they have never heard, were born in the jungle, die as babies, etc.  I firmly believe that they will still be given that chance in Sheol, after death.  God is fair.  He puts fairness in our hearts.  However, the Bible is vague about what that looks like and it is not a commonly held belief.  I think the black and white, heaven and hell translations is a bit too simplistic but I digress here.)

As for the "image of God"  we have a mind, a physical body and a soul or "spirit."  I believe it is the eternal soul that differentiates us.  We also have the ability to see good and evil and understand these things.  That is what I think of when I think about being created in God's image.   Thankfully we were not created all-powerful.  I can only imagine what the world would be like then. Wink  It might make for an interesting sci-fi movie though.

And yes, there are sinful people in churches doing evil things in God's name.  They will be judged harshly, more harshly than anyone else I believe, for doing these things when the final day of judgement arrives.  

I understand and respect your Christian views.  With that, how do you explain the sometimes conflicting views of other religions?  Are the other 70% of the world’s population dammed to Hell because they don’t believe in your God?  

God judges the heart.  I personally believe that there will be many people of different faiths that go to heaven, but only after they see Jesus for who He really is in the afterlife.  Those with sincere and pure hearts that really seek God and want to do what is right, he knows them and God will provide a way for them.  I personally think the English translation of scripture has done huge harm in translating "sheol" or "the grave" into "Hell."  There are more places talked about in the afterlife than simply heaven and hell.  There is sheol, hades, death, the grave, and then the final punishment is the lake of eternal fire (what we consider hell.) There is a misconception that it is totally black and white when it comes to these things.   You accept Jesus here on earth and go to heaven or don't accept, or never even get a chance to hear about Jesus and you go to hell, is the common teaching.  This doesn't sit right with most people that are not Christians (and some that are) because we know it is unfair.  Why would we want to serve a God that was unfair?  But because God puts the sense of fairness and justice in our hearts to begin with, this should cause us to sit back and question this.  

Here is the issue.  The Bible says that there is only one way to the Father and it is through Jesus Christ and that there is no other name in which to be saved.  That is very black and white in scripture.   But I believe that there will be a chance, after death, for people to accept or reject Jesus.  This is not a common belief in the church at all.  I guess the Catholic have a sort of "purgatory" that they believe in.  The only thing is that I am not sure if our prayers here on earth will have an affect on souls there waiting.  But I digress.  The Bible says that Jesus holds the keys to death and the grave.  While he was in the grave for 3 days, my personal belief is that he went to Sheol and visited the souls there in waiting. (I believe it will be people of all time past and future)  People there had a choice, just like here, to accept or reject him.  Perhaps those that lived lives of love and compassion were more apt to accept?  Maybe those that rejected God outright already made their choice and do not get that choice?  There is a story about Lazarus and rich man in scripture that makes it seem like there might not be a choice for some that live selfish lives and reject God.   The Bible does say, "He that denies me on earth I will deny in heaven" so I think that there might be no second chances for some that have already made up their minds.  

I have considered blogging about this at some point.  It really has changed my view of how I see things.  There are some wonderful people that are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, etc. . . that really seek to love others.  I know that God would be pleased with this.  However, as fallen people in a sinful world we cannot earn our salvation, even if we are extremely "good people."  We will never be good enough on our own (because we all have sinned) and we all need Jesus.  Knowing that they might not fully understand this, because of the fact that they have never heard of Jesus, or been taught about Him, but will eventually see the truth if they have a pure heart, if not in this life in the after life, seems to be more in the true character of God that I read about in the Bible.  Besides, the great men of faith and all of the people that lived during the time of the Old Testament (before Jesus was even born) had not heard of Jesus yet.  They would have needed to accept or reject Him at some point in time.  This is why the thought of people having a chance to accept Jesus after death actually is not in contradiction to the Bible.  


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September 20, 2014, 05:53:03 AM
 #892

Aliens.... Exist... and a much better bet then if god Exists....


If God Exists.... why does he let the innocent suffer so much...

Example a young 3 year old child sick in hospitals all around the world...

and we are all made in the image of god.. no way if I was made in the image of god I would have his power... and then no children would be suffering..


The only thing god is... is a money maker for the church... and do not get me started on that one...

If you want to believe in something.. believe in KARMA and YOUR INNER FEELINGS.... and oh yer ALIENSSSSSSSSSS......



Well, there is the main question.  I often think that the problem many people have (including several in the scientific community) isn't so much about the question of if God exists, it is more about if He does exist, how could he allow such suffering?

I am sure you have heard the typical debates on this matter.  It becomes more a question about free-will vs. God's intervention.  

My thoughts on it are as follows:

God creates the world.  God creates man.  Give man (Adam and Eve) free will to choose.  Man chooses not to obey God (eating forbidden fruit) then man is given consequences for that choice.  Sin enters the world because of that choice.  With sin (and Satan's influence) comes death, sickness, suffering, hate, murder and all of the other painful things we deal with on a daily basis.  But God provides hope and way to be freed from this sinful world we are currently in.  He promises to send His son to pay the penalty for the choices we have made and offers us eternal life free from these things.  Basically we have a gift of our sentence being pardoned if we so choose to accept it.  This life is temporary.  Eternity is the main goal we should be focused on.

All that said, do I often wonder why God doesn't intervene more often?  Should he have a "smite button" that he presses anytime we, as humans, choose to do evil or make choices that go against Him?  If He did that, I would already be smitten.  Wink  Thankfully, He is patient and forgiving.  He can heal sickness and I have seen Him do so at times, but He is more concerned about our eternal well being than our present physical well being.  Why doesn't he heal all the time?  Do I understand God's ways?  Of course not.  I can't.  But I can understand that He loves me, loves you, loves the world so much that He gave His son as a ransom for our sins so we can have hope.  That is enough for me.  And if I had a sick child in the hospital I would still have hope.  I have suffered abuse but I know Jesus was there with me.  He understands our pain and suffering and we do not have to endure it alone.  This life is not all that there is.  To me, the thought that this evil and sinful world is all we have is the most depressing thought of all.  As a Christian, it is the closest to hell I will ever be and it keeps everything in perspective.  This is also why Christians can come across as so pushy and desperate at times to convince others to see things the way we do.  We know this could be the closest thing to hell we experience as humans and we hope and pray others will see this and understand this and humbly turn back to God instead of being angry with Him.  The flip side?  This is the closest thing to heaven people who do not accept Jesus will experience.  (For those that do not get a chance to accept Jesus because they have never heard, were born in the jungle, die as babies, etc.  I firmly believe that they will still be given that chance in Sheol, after death.  God is fair.  He puts fairness in our hearts.  However, the Bible is vague about what that looks like and it is not a commonly held belief.  I think the black and white, heaven and hell translations is a bit too simplistic but I digress here.)

As for the "image of God"  we have a mind, a physical body and a soul or "spirit."  I believe it is the eternal soul that differentiates us.  We also have the ability to see good and evil and understand these things.  That is what I think of when I think about being created in God's image.   Thankfully we were not created all-powerful.  I can only imagine what the world would be like then. Wink  It might make for an interesting sci-fi movie though.

And yes, there are sinful people in churches doing evil things in God's name.  They will be judged harshly, more harshly than anyone else I believe, for doing these things when the final day of judgement arrives.  

I understand and respect your Christian views.  With that, how do you explain the sometimes conflicting views of other religions?  Are the other 70% of the world’s population dammed to Hell because they don’t believe in your God?  

God judges the heart.  I personally believe that there will be many people of different faiths that go to heaven, but only after they see Jesus for who He really is in the afterlife.  Those with sincere and pure hearts that really seek God and want to do what is right, he knows them and God will provide a way for them.  I personally think the English translation of scripture has done huge harm in translating "sheol" or "the grave" into "Hell."  There are more places talked about in the afterlife than simply heaven and hell.  There is sheol, hades, death, the grave, and then the final punishment is the lake of eternal fire (what we consider hell.) There is a misconception that it is totally black and white when it comes to these things.   You accept Jesus here on earth and go to heaven or don't accept, or never even get a chance to hear about Jesus and you go to hell, is the common teaching.  This doesn't sit right with most people that are not Christians (and some that are) because we know it is unfair.  Why would we want to serve a God that was unfair?  But because God puts the sense of fairness and justice in our hearts to begin with, this should cause us to sit back and question this.  

Here is the issue.  The Bible says that there is only one way to the Father and it is through Jesus Christ and that there is no other name in which to be saved.  That is very black and white in scripture.   But I believe that there will be a chance, after death, for people to accept or reject Jesus.  This is not a common belief in the church at all.  I guess the Catholic have a sort of "purgatory" that they believe in.  The only thing is that I am not sure if our prayers here on earth will have an affect on souls there waiting.  But I digress.  The Bible says that Jesus holds the keys to death and the grave.  While he was in the grave for 3 days, my personal belief is that he went to Sheol and visited the souls there in waiting. (I believe it will be people of all time past and future)  People there had a choice, just like here, to accept or reject him.  Perhaps those that lived lives of love and compassion were more apt to accept?  Maybe those that rejected God outright already made their choice and do not get that choice?  There is a story about Lazarus and rich man in scripture that makes it seem like there might not be a choice for some that live selfish lives and reject God.   The Bible does say, "He that denies me on earth I will deny in heaven" so I think that there might be no second chances for some that have already made up their minds.  

I have considered blogging about this at some point.  It really has changed my view of how I see things.  There are some wonderful people that are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, etc. . . that really seek to love others.  I know that God would be pleased with this.  However, as fallen people in a sinful world we cannot earn our salvation, even if we are extremely "good people."  We will never be good enough on our own (because we all have sinned) and we all need Jesus.  Knowing that they might not fully understand this, because of the fact that they have never heard of Jesus, or been taught about Him, but will eventually see the truth if they have a pure heart, if not in this life in the after life, seems to be more in the true character of God that I read about in the Bible.  Besides, the great men of faith and all of the people that lived during the time of the Old Testament (before Jesus was even born) had not heard of Jesus yet.  They would have needed to accept or reject Him at some point in time.  This is why the thought of people having a chance to accept Jesus after death actually is not in contradiction to the Bible.  


How does one come by "right?"

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September 20, 2014, 06:08:58 AM
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God judges the heart.  I personally believe that there will be many people of different faiths that go to heaven, but only after they see Jesus for who He really is in the afterlife.  Those with sincere and pure hearts that really seek God and want to do what is right, he knows them and God will provide a way for them.  I personally think the English translation of scripture has done huge harm in translating "sheol" or "the grave" into "Hell."  There are more places talked about in the afterlife than simply heaven and hell.  There is sheol, hades, death, the grave, and then the final punishment is the lake of eternal fire (what we consider hell.) There is a misconception that it is totally black and white when it comes to these things.   You accept Jesus here on earth and go to heaven or don't accept, or never even get a chance to hear about Jesus and you go to hell, is the common teaching.  This doesn't sit right with most people that are not Christians (and some that are) because we know it is unfair.  Why would we want to serve a God that was unfair?  But because God puts the sense of fairness and justice in our hearts to begin with, this should cause us to sit back and question this.  

Here is the issue.  The Bible says that there is only one way to the Father and it is through Jesus Christ and that there is no other name in which to be saved.  That is very black and white in scripture.   But I believe that there will be a chance, after death, for people to accept or reject Jesus.  This is not a common belief in the church at all.  I guess the Catholic have a sort of "purgatory" that they believe in.  The only thing is that I am not sure if our prayers here on earth will have an affect on souls there waiting.  But I digress.  The Bible says that Jesus holds the keys to death and the grave.  While he was in the grave for 3 days, my personal belief is that he went to Sheol and visited the souls there in waiting. (I believe it will be people of all time past and future)  People there had a choice, just like here, to accept or reject him.  Perhaps those that lived lives of love and compassion were more apt to accept?  Maybe those that rejected God outright already made their choice and do not get that choice?  There is a story about Lazarus and rich man in scripture that makes it seem like there might not be a choice for some that live selfish lives and reject God.   The Bible does say, "He that denies me on earth I will deny in heaven" so I think that there might be no second chances for some that have already made up their minds.  

I have considered blogging about this at some point.  It really has changed my view of how I see things.  There are some wonderful people that are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, etc. . . that really seek to love others.  I know that God would be pleased with this.  However, as fallen people in a sinful world we cannot earn our salvation, even if we are extremely "good people."  We will never be good enough on our own (because we all have sinned) and we all need Jesus.  Knowing that they might not fully understand this, because of the fact that they have never heard of Jesus, or been taught about Him, but will eventually see the truth if they have a pure heart, if not in this life in the after life, seems to be more in the true character of God that I read about in the Bible.  Besides, the great men of faith and all of the people that lived during the time of the Old Testament (before Jesus was even born) had not heard of Jesus yet.  They would have needed to accept or reject Him at some point in time.  This is why the thought of people having a chance to accept Jesus after death actually is not in contradiction to the Bible.  


How does one come by "right?"
[/quote]

Not sure I understand your question.  Are you commenting on how I said that God will look at their hearts and see if people want to do what is "right?" 

God's law is the truth and what is "right."  In a way, our conscience is what can often give us a sense of right and wrong as well.

But if you were to ask me to summarize what is "right" in a short sentence it would be to "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"  This is the greatest commandment is it not?

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September 20, 2014, 06:21:01 AM
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God judges the heart.  I personally believe that there will be many people of different faiths that go to heaven, but only after they see Jesus for who He really is in the afterlife.  Those with sincere and pure hearts that really seek God and want to do what is right, he knows them and God will provide a way for them.  I personally think the English translation of scripture has done huge harm in translating "sheol" or "the grave" into "Hell."  There are more places talked about in the afterlife than simply heaven and hell.  There is sheol, hades, death, the grave, and then the final punishment is the lake of eternal fire (what we consider hell.) There is a misconception that it is totally black and white when it comes to these things.   You accept Jesus here on earth and go to heaven or don't accept, or never even get a chance to hear about Jesus and you go to hell, is the common teaching.  This doesn't sit right with most people that are not Christians (and some that are) because we know it is unfair.  Why would we want to serve a God that was unfair?  But because God puts the sense of fairness and justice in our hearts to begin with, this should cause us to sit back and question this.  

Here is the issue.  The Bible says that there is only one way to the Father and it is through Jesus Christ and that there is no other name in which to be saved.  That is very black and white in scripture.   But I believe that there will be a chance, after death, for people to accept or reject Jesus.  This is not a common belief in the church at all.  I guess the Catholic have a sort of "purgatory" that they believe in.  The only thing is that I am not sure if our prayers here on earth will have an affect on souls there waiting.  But I digress.  The Bible says that Jesus holds the keys to death and the grave.  While he was in the grave for 3 days, my personal belief is that he went to Sheol and visited the souls there in waiting. (I believe it will be people of all time past and future)  People there had a choice, just like here, to accept or reject him.  Perhaps those that lived lives of love and compassion were more apt to accept?  Maybe those that rejected God outright already made their choice and do not get that choice?  There is a story about Lazarus and rich man in scripture that makes it seem like there might not be a choice for some that live selfish lives and reject God.   The Bible does say, "He that denies me on earth I will deny in heaven" so I think that there might be no second chances for some that have already made up their minds.  

I have considered blogging about this at some point.  It really has changed my view of how I see things.  There are some wonderful people that are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, etc. . . that really seek to love others.  I know that God would be pleased with this.  However, as fallen people in a sinful world we cannot earn our salvation, even if we are extremely "good people."  We will never be good enough on our own (because we all have sinned) and we all need Jesus.  Knowing that they might not fully understand this, because of the fact that they have never heard of Jesus, or been taught about Him, but will eventually see the truth if they have a pure heart, if not in this life in the after life, seems to be more in the true character of God that I read about in the Bible.  Besides, the great men of faith and all of the people that lived during the time of the Old Testament (before Jesus was even born) had not heard of Jesus yet.  They would have needed to accept or reject Him at some point in time.  This is why the thought of people having a chance to accept Jesus after death actually is not in contradiction to the Bible.  


How does one come by "right?"

Not sure I understand your question.  Are you commenting on how I said that God will look at their hearts and see if people want to do what is "right?"  

God's law is the truth and what is "right."  In a way, our conscience is what can often give us a sense of right and wrong as well.

But if you were to ask me to summarize what is "right" in a short sentence it would be to "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"  This is the greatest commandment is it not?

No, God's law is his truth; "the" truth is whichever arbitrary truth one prefixes with "the."

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September 20, 2014, 06:29:08 AM
 #895


God judges the heart.  I personally believe that there will be many people of different faiths that go to heaven, but only after they see Jesus for who He really is in the afterlife.  Those with sincere and pure hearts that really seek God and want to do what is right, he knows them and God will provide a way for them.  I personally think the English translation of scripture has done huge harm in translating "sheol" or "the grave" into "Hell."  There are more places talked about in the afterlife than simply heaven and hell.  There is sheol, hades, death, the grave, and then the final punishment is the lake of eternal fire (what we consider hell.) There is a misconception that it is totally black and white when it comes to these things.   You accept Jesus here on earth and go to heaven or don't accept, or never even get a chance to hear about Jesus and you go to hell, is the common teaching.  This doesn't sit right with most people that are not Christians (and some that are) because we know it is unfair.  Why would we want to serve a God that was unfair?  But because God puts the sense of fairness and justice in our hearts to begin with, this should cause us to sit back and question this.  

Here is the issue.  The Bible says that there is only one way to the Father and it is through Jesus Christ and that there is no other name in which to be saved.  That is very black and white in scripture.   But I believe that there will be a chance, after death, for people to accept or reject Jesus.  This is not a common belief in the church at all.  I guess the Catholic have a sort of "purgatory" that they believe in.  The only thing is that I am not sure if our prayers here on earth will have an affect on souls there waiting.  But I digress.  The Bible says that Jesus holds the keys to death and the grave.  While he was in the grave for 3 days, my personal belief is that he went to Sheol and visited the souls there in waiting. (I believe it will be people of all time past and future)  People there had a choice, just like here, to accept or reject him.  Perhaps those that lived lives of love and compassion were more apt to accept?  Maybe those that rejected God outright already made their choice and do not get that choice?  There is a story about Lazarus and rich man in scripture that makes it seem like there might not be a choice for some that live selfish lives and reject God.   The Bible does say, "He that denies me on earth I will deny in heaven" so I think that there might be no second chances for some that have already made up their minds.  

I have considered blogging about this at some point.  It really has changed my view of how I see things.  There are some wonderful people that are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, etc. . . that really seek to love others.  I know that God would be pleased with this.  However, as fallen people in a sinful world we cannot earn our salvation, even if we are extremely "good people."  We will never be good enough on our own (because we all have sinned) and we all need Jesus.  Knowing that they might not fully understand this, because of the fact that they have never heard of Jesus, or been taught about Him, but will eventually see the truth if they have a pure heart, if not in this life in the after life, seems to be more in the true character of God that I read about in the Bible.  Besides, the great men of faith and all of the people that lived during the time of the Old Testament (before Jesus was even born) had not heard of Jesus yet.  They would have needed to accept or reject Him at some point in time.  This is why the thought of people having a chance to accept Jesus after death actually is not in contradiction to the Bible.  


How does one come by "right?"

Not sure I understand your question.  Are you commenting on how I said that God will look at their hearts and see if people want to do what is "right?"  

God's law is the truth and what is "right."  In a way, our conscience is what can often give us a sense of right and wrong as well.

But if you were to ask me to summarize what is "right" in a short sentence it would be to "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"  This is the greatest commandment is it not?

No, God's law is his truth; "the" truth is whichever arbitrary truth one prefixes with "the."

If there is truth, it is truth regardless of if it is "his" "yours" or "mine."  Truth is truth.  

Most people do not believe in absolute truth anymore though.  It is all relative on what feels right to them and they have their own personal "truth."  This really isn't truth though.

There is a way that seems "right" to a man but in the end it leads to death.  I think that there will be many people that do what they think is right but it really isn't.  But God can see who really seeks Him in Spirit and in truth.  This goes for all religions.  Many people who claim to be Christians really don't seek God with a pure heart.  The Bible even warns that there will be many that get to the afterlife and say, "I did all these things in Your name" and then God will say, "Depart from me.  I never knew you."  

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September 20, 2014, 06:31:53 AM
 #896


God judges the heart.  I personally believe that there will be many people of different faiths that go to heaven, but only after they see Jesus for who He really is in the afterlife.  Those with sincere and pure hearts that really seek God and want to do what is right, he knows them and God will provide a way for them.  I personally think the English translation of scripture has done huge harm in translating "sheol" or "the grave" into "Hell."  There are more places talked about in the afterlife than simply heaven and hell.  There is sheol, hades, death, the grave, and then the final punishment is the lake of eternal fire (what we consider hell.) There is a misconception that it is totally black and white when it comes to these things.   You accept Jesus here on earth and go to heaven or don't accept, or never even get a chance to hear about Jesus and you go to hell, is the common teaching.  This doesn't sit right with most people that are not Christians (and some that are) because we know it is unfair.  Why would we want to serve a God that was unfair?  But because God puts the sense of fairness and justice in our hearts to begin with, this should cause us to sit back and question this.  

Here is the issue.  The Bible says that there is only one way to the Father and it is through Jesus Christ and that there is no other name in which to be saved.  That is very black and white in scripture.   But I believe that there will be a chance, after death, for people to accept or reject Jesus.  This is not a common belief in the church at all.  I guess the Catholic have a sort of "purgatory" that they believe in.  The only thing is that I am not sure if our prayers here on earth will have an affect on souls there waiting.  But I digress.  The Bible says that Jesus holds the keys to death and the grave.  While he was in the grave for 3 days, my personal belief is that he went to Sheol and visited the souls there in waiting. (I believe it will be people of all time past and future)  People there had a choice, just like here, to accept or reject him.  Perhaps those that lived lives of love and compassion were more apt to accept?  Maybe those that rejected God outright already made their choice and do not get that choice?  There is a story about Lazarus and rich man in scripture that makes it seem like there might not be a choice for some that live selfish lives and reject God.   The Bible does say, "He that denies me on earth I will deny in heaven" so I think that there might be no second chances for some that have already made up their minds.  

I have considered blogging about this at some point.  It really has changed my view of how I see things.  There are some wonderful people that are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, etc. . . that really seek to love others.  I know that God would be pleased with this.  However, as fallen people in a sinful world we cannot earn our salvation, even if we are extremely "good people."  We will never be good enough on our own (because we all have sinned) and we all need Jesus.  Knowing that they might not fully understand this, because of the fact that they have never heard of Jesus, or been taught about Him, but will eventually see the truth if they have a pure heart, if not in this life in the after life, seems to be more in the true character of God that I read about in the Bible.  Besides, the great men of faith and all of the people that lived during the time of the Old Testament (before Jesus was even born) had not heard of Jesus yet.  They would have needed to accept or reject Him at some point in time.  This is why the thought of people having a chance to accept Jesus after death actually is not in contradiction to the Bible.  


How does one come by "right?"

Not sure I understand your question.  Are you commenting on how I said that God will look at their hearts and see if people want to do what is "right?"  

God's law is the truth and what is "right."  In a way, our conscience is what can often give us a sense of right and wrong as well.

But if you were to ask me to summarize what is "right" in a short sentence it would be to "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"  This is the greatest commandment is it not?

No, God's law is his truth; "the" truth is whichever arbitrary truth one prefixes with "the."

If there is truth, it is truth regardless of if it is "his" "yours" or "mine."  Truth is truth.  

Most people do not believe in absolute truth anymore though.  It is all relative on what feels right to them and they have their own personal "truth."  This really isn't truth though.

There is a way that seems "right" to a man but in the end it leads to death.  I think that there will be many people that do what they think is right but it really isn't.  But God can see who really seeks Him in Spirit and in truth.  This goes for all religions.  Many people who claim to be Christians really don't seek God with a pure heart.  The Bible even warns that there will be many that get to the afterlife and say, "I did all these things in Your name" and then God will say, "Depart from me.  I never knew you."  
What matter is coming to dead?

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September 20, 2014, 09:43:37 PM
 #897

They have not observed the big bang have they?  But they believe it as fact, when indeed it isn't a proven fact.  It is even taught as a fact to students today in many schools and that, to me, is a travesty.  It needs to be taught as it really is, a theory! 

Didn't we already explain in another thread a long time ago that a scientific theory is tantamount to a fact, because it is based on observable evidence and fact? You are thinking of the word "hypothesis," which is where someone just says, "I think this is how it is." A scientific theory is "this is how I observed things to be, and this is the simplest explanation." Like the earth rotating around the sun is a scientific theory (heliocentric theory) based on our observations. We observed how things move around in the sky, and sent satellites to space to verify observations, and the theory of "earth is rotating around the sun" is the simplest explanation we have for what we have seen. Keep in mind that we have never actually went to the sun and watched the earth rotate around from there just to be sure. We never needed to. Likewise with big bang, we can observe the universe expanding from a point, and can see background radiation far away in space that fits the simplest explanation of "everything came from one point." If you want to add your own evidence of a creator, you have to actually present the visible (or at least testable) evidence, not just something you think is true.

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September 21, 2014, 01:06:05 AM
 #898

If a single celled virus mutated into something more deadly and resiliant than a strain of it's predecessor, then it would have to reproduce through splitting from the newly designed cell. This would create a new "creature." Is that proof that some god somewhere has made that happen? Of course not. It simply means that the cell naturally needed to evolve and adapt to it's envoronment and did so. Thats just a microcosm of what happens with multi-celled organisms over time. Humans still have appendixes which perform no real function for us today, but they were useful for something at one point in our evolution. Some god isn't just twitching is nose and making things happen. Things happen for scientific reasons.
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September 21, 2014, 02:20:16 AM
 #899


What matter is coming to dead?

Dead is has two parts.
1. death of body.
2. Death of soul.

Death of body may mean little. It may mean to simply stop working/living in this life.

Death of soul means, in part, cessation of all vibration of existence. This will take an eternity, because that is how long the soul will exist. This death is continual dying.

In God's realm, this will have an ending, a finishing, because God's realm exists with eternity and beyond eternity as well. But in the realms in which man exists, there will be no ending of this death. We cannot understand it from God's point of view, because we are not God, Himself. We will only feel it and experience it from man's point of view, because we are people.

God has worked to save people from the death, both of body, and of soul. That is what the story of Jesus is all about. Accept Jesus, be resurrected to eternal life with God, not eternal death away from God.

Much of this is beyond our clear understanding in this life. But it will happen to all of us something like this. Perhaps we will have a clearer understanding in the resurrection. But then it will be too late to change.

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September 21, 2014, 02:40:06 AM
Last edit: September 21, 2014, 02:51:55 AM by BADecker
 #900

If a single celled virus mutated into something more deadly and resiliant than a strain of it's predecessor, then it would have to reproduce through splitting from the newly designed cell.

If it reproduced.

This would create a new "creature."

Would produce death or weakness to the cell. Cells are powerful, but powerful in attempting to regain the perfection that they had. That's the reason life keeps on going. It is attempting to get back to the perfection that it once was. Will never make it. Death will keep on happening.

Is that proof that some god somewhere has made that happen? Of course not. It simply means that the cell naturally needed to evolve and adapt to it's envoronment and did so.

Having a "need" is more like "being designed to have the need."

Thats just a microcosm of what happens with multi-celled organisms over time.

As I said above, in this post.

Humans still have appendixes which perform no real function for us today, but they were useful for something at one point in our evolution.

Actually, the Chinese found out ages ago that the appendix produces a slime that covers the stool so that the stool doesn't harm the colon wall as it passes.

Some harmonic studies that compare plants with animals suggest that the vibratory rates of the appendix match those of plants that propagate through "appendages," like strawberries and some vines. Perhaps before the fall into sin, people would have propagated like this.

Some god isn't just twitching is nose and making things happen. Things happen for scientific reasons.

This is absolutely correct. God is way more scientific - from the currently evolved common meaning of "science," not the dictionary definition - than man is. Yet, from man's "dictionary science" meaning, God has made the soul of man so strong that He does examine the heart to see exactly what kind of faith exists there, person to person.

Smiley

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