Money is usually debt; Debt is slavery; Bitcoin is neither debt nor slavery.

[Jon]

If you were to pay off all of the debt in the world, there would be no fiat cash, period. Every dollar that is printed (digital or otherwise) is owned as collateral by the shareholders of the central bank that print it, plus interest.

The money is given value by legal tender laws; ergo, people have to accept it for all debts. To add salt to the wound, you don't even own the money you hold. It can be garnished and deleted by inflation. It's only of value to you by the contractual license of force: If you incur a debt, you can force the currency down your debtor's throat with a policeman by your side.

With Bitcoin, it only has value on a voluntary-basis. People will not take it because they have to but because they want to and choose to do so. To me, that's the most valuable thing about Bitcoin as a digital currency and why it's growth will be exponential: It's growth will come from the will of the people and not coercion.

[1713269840]

1713269840

[1713269840]

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[1713269840]

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[drakahn]

+1

I hate money, and i love bitcoins

[da2ce7]

Um... Money is just a unit of accounting for transferring value between people and corporations.
The question is what sort of money you are using…

[FreeMoney]

If you were to pay off all of the debt in the world, there would be no fiat cash, period. Every dollar that is printed (digital or otherwise) is owned as collateral by the shareholders of the central bank that print it, plus interest.

The money is given value by legal tender laws; ergo, people have to accept it for all debts. To add salt to the wound, you don't even own the money you hold. It can be garnished and deleted by inflation. It's only of value to you by the contractual license of force: If you incur a debt, you can force the currency down your debtor's throat with a policeman by your side.

Where would all the paper go?

My brother owes me 30 million bitcoins. Does this affect you or bitcoin?

With Bitcoin, it only has value on a voluntary-basis. People will not take it because they have to but because they want to and choose to do so. To me, that's the most valuable thing about Bitcoin as a digital currency and why it's growth will be exponential: It's growth will come from the will of the people and not coercion.

I agree.

[johnyj]

True, the central banks own the money, and they legally own the work of the rest of the people. Of course they do not have any intention to spend those money for their private use, they must have the overview for the whole country, this is a critical requirement for central bank

Since money has lots of use (a world without a stable currency will have so many transaction problems), as long as central banks make sure the money keeps its value (low inflation), there will be no complain

BTC network also tries to become a central bank, but due to its constant supply nature, if the economy grows (amount tradable goods/services increase), BTC supply kept no change, price will fall (deflation), it's actually discourage economy growth if used as a currency

And here is something very interesting:
If a society get very high jobless rate and all those jobless people do not have enough money to spend, they will tends to create their own money and grow their own economy

If 20% of people in the country do not have enough money to buy food, and some of them have the ability to produce food but can not sell to market, due to they can not compete with cheap and high quality products generated from highly automated product lines, they can still produce food and sell to other people who produce other similar products, by using another currency

For example, a bread produced by big super market cost 1$, while the bread produced by a private people A can cost 4$, so A has no way to sell his product due to higher cost, and does not have any possibility to earn any income. However, another people B also doesn't have possibility to sell home growned cucumber at $4, but he can exchange his extra cucumber with A to get some bread, thus they need some kind of currency to facilitate their trading (they do not have dollar, if they have, they will buy bread and cucumber from super market at a price of 1$), that's where BTC fits in

[Phinnaeus Gage]

If you were to pay off all of the debt in the world, there would be no fiat cash, period. Every dollar that is printed (digital or otherwise) is owned as collateral by the shareholders of the central bank that print it, plus interest.

The money is given value by legal tender laws; ergo, people have to accept it for all debts. To add salt to the wound, you don't even own the money you hold. It can be garnished and deleted by inflation. It's only of value to you by the contractual license of force: If you incur a debt, you can force the currency down your debtor's throat with a policeman by your side.

With Bitcoin, it only has value on a voluntary-basis. People will not take it because they have to but because they want to and choose to do so. To me, that's the most valuable thing about Bitcoin as a digital currency and why it's growth will be exponential: It's growth will come from the will of the people and not coercion.

+1

For some reason, I've enjoyed reading this post by Atlas, albeit he got his "its" and "it's" crossed a couple times. Keep up the good postings, /A/.

~Bruno~

[hazek]

as long as central banks make sure the money keeps its value (low inflation), there will be no complain

Sir, that's a contradiction: low inflation != money keeping it's value

An inflation of 3% will HALF the purchasing power of your money in just 23.3 years! Inflation of 7% in 10 years, 10% in 7 years, 15% in 4.66 years, how is that money keeping it's value?

What central banks merely ATTEMPT to do is to keep the devaluation orderly. That's what stable inflation is.

[hazek]

price will fall (deflation), it's actually discourage economy growth if used as a currency

Sir this is a deflationary fallacy proven by historic evidence of the industrial revolution amidst a long period of gradually falling prices and money gaining purchasing power.

[evoorhees]

Debt is not slavery.

If I borrow money from someone, whether dollars or Bitcoins, I am in debt. But in no way am I a slave, I'm merely obligated to fulfill a voluntary contract. If debt is slavery, so too is employment, ordering chinese food, purchasing insurance, and marriage (some might argue with this last point

Why won't this phrase go away??

[hazek]

And here is something very interesting:
If a society get very high jobless rate and all those jobless people do not have enough money to spend, they will tends to create their own money and grow their own economy

If 20% of people in the country do not have enough money to buy food, and some of them have the ability to produce food but can not sell to market, due to they can not compete with cheap and high quality products generated from highly automated product lines, they can still produce food and sell to other people who produce other similar products, by using another currency

For example, a bread produced by big super market cost 1$, while the bread produced by a private people A can cost 4$, so A has no way to sell his product due to higher cost, and does not have any possibility to earn any income. However, another people B also doesn't have possibility to sell home growned cucumber at $4, but he can exchange his extra cucumber with A to get some bread, thus they need some kind of currency to facilitate their trading (they do not have dollar, if they have, they will buy bread and cucumber from super market at a price of 1$), that's where BTC fits in

Sir, it is obvious to me by reading your post that you have:

a) no idea what money is
b) no idea how money originally came about
c) no idea what role it was intended to originally fulfill
d) no idea what is a good money

I suggest you start learning by watching an introductory video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vowbrq_g5NM

[hazek]

Debt is not slavery.

Debt is slavery if the lender created the loan out of thin air and is charging you interest on it. Play this game long enough and you will become the lenders actual slave.

[joe82]

; Bitcoin is neither debt nor slavery....
nor money 

[cbeast]

; Bitcoin is neither debt nor slavery....
nor money 

It may not be currency, but it is money. Money is nothing but a medium of exchange for anything of value. Bitcoin has always had value, even when it took 10k BTC to buy pizza.

[benjamindees]

It may not be currency, but it is money. Money is nothing but a medium of exchange for anything of value. Bitcoin has always had value, even when it took 10k BTC to buy pizza.

Your definition of money is incomplete in my opinion.  But what definition of currency are you using for which Bitcoin doesn't qualify?

[lonelyminer (Peter Šurda)]

It may not be currency, but it is money. Money is nothing but a medium of exchange for anything of value. Bitcoin has always had value, even when it took 10k BTC to buy pizza.

Money is the most common medium of exchange, the most liquid good.

[westkybitcoins]

Debt is not slavery.

If I borrow money from someone, whether dollars or Bitcoins, I am in debt. But in no way am I a slave, I'm merely obligated to fulfill a voluntary contract. If debt is slavery, so too is employment, ordering chinese food, purchasing insurance, and marriage (some might argue with this last point

Why won't this phrase go away??

Because it's culturally entrenched. Here's the origin of it:

Proverbs 22:7 - The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.

Like it or not, that's going to continue to be the perspective of many people for a long time. Myself, I understand the meaning; I have no problem with it.

[hashman]

If you were to pay off all of the debt in the world, there would be no fiat cash, period. Every dollar that is printed (digital or otherwise) is owned as collateral by the shareholders of the central bank that print it, plus interest.

Are you telling me you know the history of every dollar created?  I don't think so.  We have no way to know about every dollar that is printed, other than to trust a random guy on the forums to tell us or some other economist who has a fancy degree and knows a secret handshake to tell us.  Maybe somebody at the bank made a mistake and added 5 zeros to your account balance, creating dollars which are not backed by your debt.  Better go check, because it's very illegal not to report that and you can be damn sure that nobody would ever break the law for short term personal gain. 

[/quote]

The money is given value by legal tender laws; ergo, people have to accept it for all debts. To add salt to the wound, you don't even own the money you hold. It can be garnished and deleted by inflation. It's only of value to you by the contractual license of force: If you incur a debt, you can force the currency down your debtor's throat with a policeman by your side.

With Bitcoin, it only has value on a voluntary-basis. People will not take it because they have to but because they want to and choose to do so. To me, that's the most valuable thing about Bitcoin as a digital currency and why it's growth will be exponential: It's growth will come from the will of the people and not coercion.

Yes, good points there, this is an attractive feature.  Personally I think the killer app feature of bitcoin is that monetary supply fraud (e.g. counterfeiting) is not just illegal but impossible.   

[MoneyIsDebt]

Money is debt.

[Matthew N. Wright]

Debt is not slavery.

If I borrow money from someone, whether dollars or Bitcoins, I am in debt. But in no way am I a slave, I'm merely obligated to fulfill a voluntary contract. If debt is slavery, so too is employment, ordering chinese food, purchasing insurance, and marriage (some might argue with this last point

Why won't this phrase go away??

Because people like Atlas have never had actual businesses before and don't understand the difference between good debt and bad debt.

[Jon]

Debt is not slavery.

If I borrow money from someone, whether dollars or Bitcoins, I am in debt. But in no way am I a slave, I'm merely obligated to fulfill a voluntary contract. If debt is slavery, so too is employment, ordering chinese food, purchasing insurance, and marriage (some might argue with this last point

Why won't this phrase go away??

Because people like Atlas have never had actual businesses before and don't understand the difference between good debt and bad debt.

A debt more than you can afford to lose is bad debt.

[cbeast]

Debt is not slavery.

If I borrow money from someone, whether dollars or Bitcoins, I am in debt. But in no way am I a slave, I'm merely obligated to fulfill a voluntary contract. If debt is slavery, so too is employment, ordering chinese food, purchasing insurance, and marriage (some might argue with this last point

Why won't this phrase go away??

Because people like Atlas have never had actual businesses before and don't understand the difference between good debt and bad debt.

A debt more than you can afford to lose is bad debt.

My turn.
SHUT UP, ATLAS!

[Matthew N. Wright]

Debt is not slavery.

If I borrow money from someone, whether dollars or Bitcoins, I am in debt. But in no way am I a slave, I'm merely obligated to fulfill a voluntary contract. If debt is slavery, so too is employment, ordering chinese food, purchasing insurance, and marriage (some might argue with this last point

Why won't this phrase go away??

Because people like Atlas have never had actual businesses before and don't understand the difference between good debt and bad debt.

A debt more than you can afford to lose is bad debt.

My turn.
SHUT UP, ATLAS!

Does he really think anyone buys his pseudo-philosophical bullshit?

Atlas, please, for the off chance you will survive this decade (which is growing smaller every time you open your mouth publicly), start actually doing things and learn from them.

A business might be healthy and want to expand, and in order to expand they borrow money from the bank that they cannot afford to lose in order to afford opening up another branch of their business in the opposite side of town. The risks are clear, and they take the chance in an effort to bring in more revenue from their new location. This is called "good debt", fucktard. It brings in income. Bad debt would be something like a car that you owe money on. If you sell it, you can't get what you paid for it back, so it's a liability and basically bad debt.

Your cool-aid stained lips repeatedly spill the gusty anal escapes of your aspergers riddled mind.

You change your name everytime someone proves you wrong and in your own clearly psychotic world, you actually forget your own name each time you do it.

You are Atlas, the suicidal 17 year old freak show who thinks that he is the god of everything for building an Ikea desk and spending something like $50 just to argue with SomethingAwful goons about how you like to physically abuse prostitutes for sexual pleasure.

You're vile, pretentious and for some reason, have an affirmed hatred for the poor as everything that comes out of your mouth involves buying your way out of trouble.

Your every statement contradicts the one before it.

Please oh please, Atlas's mommy. If you can read this. Make him take his medicine today so the grownups can have a conversation without hearing "Look at me! Look at me! Look what I can do!" every 15 seconds in the form of a self-serving and un-ironically pointless blog post.

Code:

Dear Diary,

The other kids at BitcoinTalk.org don't like me. I think I can win them over by learning how they talk.
It will take me some time, but I am determined to make myself a success through the admiration of
others (just like how I explained why girls orgasm-- in admiration of me!). I will make them like me by
force or bribes if necessary.

I will be the new Bruce Wagner. They will see. They just haven't seen my good side yet. Oh well, Diary,
until next time, it looks like those goddamn poor people are at my door again trying to get some help for
something pointless like their own lives. That doesn't provide me happiness, so I will pick them off with a
rifle on their way into the street while I keep looking super cool with my fake vapor cigarettes.

Love,

Atlas. I mean Immanuel Go. I mean Ragnar. I mean ALPHA. I mean Jon.

Who am I diary?

I am unremorseful, that's who.

[cbeast]

heh. Atlas reminds me a little of Captain Howdy posessing a teenager. I wonder if his head spins whenever he creates a new account.

[Jon]

I'm only winning. WINNING.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5aSa4tmVNM

[cbeast]

I'm only winning. WINNING.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5aSa4tmVNM

Sheen is winning new friends at the moment.

[johnyj]

Money is not debt, it is some kind of religion 

Although it does not hold any value, but when everyone believe in the value behind it, it gets everyone's trust, and to keep this trust, there are central bankers control the money supply, acting as gods in this religion

[Matthew N. Wright]

Money is not debt, it is some kind of religion 

Although it does not hold any value, but when everyone believe in the value behind it, it gets everyone's trust, and to keep this trust, there are central bankers control the money supply, acting as gods in this religion

Unless the money is also a commodity.

[guruvan]

Debt is not slavery.

If I borrow money from someone, whether dollars or Bitcoins, I am in debt. But in no way am I a slave, I'm merely obligated to fulfill a voluntary contract. If debt is slavery, so too is employment, ordering chinese food, purchasing insurance, and marriage (some might argue with this last point

Why won't this phrase go away??

In the case of fiat money, it is created by the government selling a bond

The government has accepted a contract. The government has forced you to accept that money they created as legal tender - you must accept that money for payment. This make you an involuntary participant.

Since you need this money to pay for items, you will need to work to acquire it. This means you are working to pay this bond, as an involuntary participant.

So, it seems to me you are in bondage. Bondage with forced labor is slavery.

And since bitcoin doesn't have a bond, or any other debt instrument to back it, or create it, it does not have these properties.

This is why I use and promote bitcoin. It is a tool of freedom. Great post.

[notme]

Debt is not slavery.

If I borrow money from someone, whether dollars or Bitcoins, I am in debt. But in no way am I a slave, I'm merely obligated to fulfill a voluntary contract. If debt is slavery, so too is employment, ordering chinese food, purchasing insurance, and marriage (some might argue with this last point

Why won't this phrase go away??

In the case of fiat money, it is created by the government selling a bond

The government has accepted a contract. The government has forced you to accept that money they created as legal tender - you must accept that money for payment. This make you an involuntary participant.

Since you need this money to pay for items, you will need to work to acquire it. This means you are working to pay this bond, as an involuntary participant.

So, it seems to me you are in bondage. Bondage with forced labor is slavery.

And since bitcoin doesn't have a bond, or any other debt instrument to back it, or create it, it does not have these properties.

This is why I use and promote bitcoin. It is a tool of freedom. Great post.

I live a simple life below the tax threshold.  Sure, I've got property taxes of almost $20 a year, but beyond that no government is forcing fiat upon me.  For me it's not worth supporting the American Cult in order to be able to buy more shit I don't need.  Grow food, love people, live free.

[guruvan]

I live a simple life below the tax threshold.  Sure, I've got property taxes of almost $20 a year, but beyond that no government is forcing fiat upon me.  For me it's not worth supporting the American Cult in order to be able to buy more shit I don't need.  Grow food, love people, live free.

+1000 Me too. Best decision I ever made was to make less money so I could be more wealthy and freer.

[benjamindees]

I live a simple life below the tax threshold.  Sure, I've got property taxes of almost $20 a year, but beyond that no government is forcing fiat upon me.  For me it's not worth supporting the American Cult in order to be able to buy more shit I don't need.  Grow food, love people, live free.

You're deluding yourself if you think you can go on doing this forever.  Eventually the irresponsibility of the state will catch up with you, and whenever they need your property to build a new housing block or factory, or simply to pay off their debt, they will seize it.

They are already attacking your ability to grow your own food, outlawing small farms, classifying heirloom breeds as "invasive" because they are too productive, poisoning the food and water, so that your tap water comes pre-saturated with fertilizer run-off and your urine contains 20x the legal limit of pesticides.  Eventually, patented seeds will make their way into your garden and you will become a target of the intellectual property regime.  The window of opportunity to become self-sufficient is closing.

At the same time, they are drawing a stark line between anyone inside their corporate plantation, and those outside.  Those inside are offered free healthcare to fend off the multitude of degenerative diseases caused by GMO and modern agriculture.  Those outside are literally labeled terrorists by the Justice Department for "believing they can live without government interference in their lives" and thereby "undermining" the fictional "democracy" they claim justifies their unsustainable property-grabbing scheme.

Meanwhile, the Army grows drugs in Afghanistan, the CIA smuggles them into the US, the ATF runs guns into Mexico, and the FBI has instigated every major "foiled" terror plot since 9/11.  This is all on the record and, in most cases, openly admitted.  Yet the average citizen is still blissfully unaware.

So, no, it's no longer enough to just sit idly by and hope the system collapses on its own.  That could take centuries.  Anyone who wants to live in peace and freedom has a responsibility to actively dismantle the unjust and unconstitutional power structures built up in order to enslave humanity.  Using Bitcoin is just one step in this process.

[guruvan]

I live a simple life below the tax threshold.  Sure, I've got property taxes of almost $20 a year, but beyond that no government is forcing fiat upon me.  For me it's not worth supporting the American Cult in order to be able to buy more shit I don't need.  Grow food, love people, live free.

......
So, no, it's no longer enough to just sit idly by and hope the system collapses on its own.  That could take centuries.  Anyone who wants to live in peace and freedom has a responsibility to actively dismantle the unjust and unconstitutional power structures built up in order to enslave humanity.  Using Bitcoin is just one step in this process.

It's one step, but it's a step. And that's really what it takes. Each person making one step. And then another.

Also, growing food is not sitting idly by. Growing anything is damn hard work. Refusing to support something is the same as hastening its eventual collapse, to me.

If the goal is to bring people out of indebtedness and slavery living free is the best thing you can do for your neighbor - your neighbor must choose freedom, you cannot force it upon him or her.

Dismantling the unjust power structures is not the same as choosing freedom. If freedom was everyone's choice, they would disintegrate. I don't worry about those structures that will fall if unsupported. (but I will entice the supporters with my experience of freedom to discontinue their support)

[notme]

I live a simple life below the tax threshold.  Sure, I've got property taxes of almost $20 a year, but beyond that no government is forcing fiat upon me.  For me it's not worth supporting the American Cult in order to be able to buy more shit I don't need.  Grow food, love people, live free.

You're deluding yourself if you think you can go on doing this forever.  Eventually the irresponsibility of the state will catch up with you, and whenever they need your property to build a new housing block or factory, or simply to pay off their debt, they will seize it.

They are already attacking your ability to grow your own food, outlawing small farms, classifying heirloom breeds as "invasive" because they are too productive, poisoning the food and water, so that your tap water comes pre-saturated with fertilizer run-off and your urine contains 20x the legal limit of pesticides.  Eventually, patented seeds will make their way into your garden and you will become a target of the intellectual property regime.  The window of opportunity to become self-sufficient is closing.

At the same time, they are drawing a stark line between anyone inside their corporate plantation, and those outside.  Those inside are offered free healthcare to fend off the multitude of degenerative diseases caused by GMO and modern agriculture.  Those outside are literally labeled terrorists by the Justice Department for "believing they can live without government interference in their lives" and thereby "undermining" the fictional "democracy" they claim justifies their unsustainable property-grabbing scheme.

Meanwhile, the Army grows drugs in Afghanistan, the CIA smuggles them into the US, the ATF runs guns into Mexico, and the FBI has instigated every major "foiled" terror plot since 9/11.  This is all on the record and, in most cases, openly admitted.  Yet the average citizen is still blissfully unaware.

So, no, it's no longer enough to just sit idly by and hope the system collapses on its own.  That could take centuries.  Anyone who wants to live in peace and freedom has a responsibility to actively dismantle the unjust and unconstitutional power structures built up in order to enslave humanity.  Using Bitcoin is just one step in this process.

I will stand with my rifle and let them shoot me before I will give them what is mine, and I have many like minds close by.  Even the corporatists will wake up if they kill enough of us.

[johnyj]

I live a simple life below the tax threshold.  Sure, I've got property taxes of almost $20 a year, but beyond that no government is forcing fiat upon me.  For me it's not worth supporting the American Cult in order to be able to buy more shit I don't need.  Grow food, love people, live free.

+1000 Me too. Best decision I ever made was to make less money so I could be more wealthy and freer.

It's just this kind of thought created financial crisis --- After banks have loaned out billions of dollar and built so many homes and sold so many CDSs, and they suddenly found out that people do not want those homes...