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Author Topic: Faster bitcoin transaction times  (Read 12321 times)
Anders (OP)
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August 13, 2014, 09:57:15 PM
 #1

I found this:

"Ten minutes was specifically chosen by Satoshi as a tradeoff between first confirmation time and the amount of work wasted due to chain splits. After a block is mined, it takes time for other miners to find out about it, and until then they are actually competing against the new block instead of adding to it. If someone mines another new block based on the old block chain, the network can only accept one of the two, and all the work that went into the other block gets wasted. For example, if it takes miners 1 minute on average to learn about new blocks, and new blocks come every 10 minutes, then the overall network is wasting about 10% of its work. Lengthening the time between blocks reduces this waste." -- https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/FAQ#Why_do_I_have_to_wait_10_minutes_before_I_can_spend_money_I_received.3F

If the broadcast of a newly discovered block could be made very fast to all the miners, couldn't the transaction time be significantly reduced?
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rarkenin
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August 13, 2014, 10:47:19 PM
 #2

Yes, however Bitcoin is desiged to be partially agnostic of lower OSI level protocols. With the proper agreement with authorities, I could be using GPRS to send blockchain data as opposed to an IP-level protocol. Thus, the protocol can't assume availability of the sub-second propagation of data across a TCP/IP link, and must be more conservative.
Anders (OP)
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August 13, 2014, 10:55:31 PM
 #3

Yes, however Bitcoin is desiged to be partially agnostic of lower OSI level protocols. With the proper agreement with authorities, I could be using GPRS to send blockchain data as opposed to an IP-level protocol. Thus, the protocol can't assume availability of the sub-second propagation of data across a TCP/IP link, and must be more conservative.

In practice miners have fast Internet connections. I don't know the technical details of how newly discovered blocks are broadcast to all the miners. Maybe it's a cumbersome process. My assumption that the broadcast can be done in milliseconds is perhaps unrealistic.
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August 13, 2014, 11:45:07 PM
 #4

I don't know the technical details of how newly discovered blocks are broadcast to all the miners. Maybe it's a cumbersome process. My assumption that the broadcast can be done in milliseconds is perhaps unrealistic.

Then perhaps you should have researched this before creating a thread about "faster bitcoin transaction times," or posted your question in the beginner section.  There is a huge amount of discussion on this topic that you can learn from already.  

And it's not transaction times you're referring to anyways--it's confirmation times.  Bitcoin transactions are extremely fast as all that's required is for nodes on the network to accept the (valid) TX into mempool.

There are also several bitcoin clones with block-time targets at least as short as 30 seconds.  Look into these to understand how the block-time target affects orphan rates and convergence.  


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rarkenin
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August 14, 2014, 01:01:58 AM
 #5

In practice miners have fast Internet connections. I don't know the technical details of how newly discovered blocks are broadcast to all the miners. Maybe it's a cumbersome process. My assumption that the broadcast can be done in milliseconds is perhaps unrealistic.

That's not a guarantee, as infrastructure could be destroyed or damaged by some bad happenings (not going to go into conspiracy theories here) or the political situation may change restricting miner connectivity.
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August 14, 2014, 01:04:43 AM
 #6

I dont really like the 10 minutes. its too long. Sometimes it can take even more time than that. 5 minutes is fine but 1 minute would be optimal for me.

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August 14, 2014, 01:13:35 AM
 #7

actually bitcoin transfers need a change
10 minutes it is too long and almost everything requires a minimum of two confirmations,that is at least 20 minutes to take a bitcoin to another address
too long nowadays
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August 14, 2014, 02:05:13 AM
 #8

Well thank god!  Without the noob crew showing up, we never would have known that we were doing it wrong all these years.

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August 16, 2014, 03:53:56 AM
 #9

I don't know the technical details of how newly discovered blocks are broadcast to all the miners. Maybe it's a cumbersome process. My assumption that the broadcast can be done in milliseconds is perhaps unrealistic.

Then perhaps you should have researched this before creating a thread about "faster bitcoin transaction times," or posted your question in the beginner section.  There is a huge amount of discussion on this topic that you can learn from already.  

And it's not transaction times you're referring to anyways--it's confirmation times.  Bitcoin transactions are extremely fast as all that's required is for nodes on the network to accept the (valid) TX into mempool.

There are also several bitcoin clones with block-time targets at least as short as 30 seconds.  Look into these to understand how the block-time target affects orphan rates and convergence.  



I think that's the point. Since transactions propagate so fast the confirmation time could probably be reduced safely.

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Anders (OP)
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August 16, 2014, 05:02:53 PM
 #10

With faster transaction times the capacity for the number of transactions would increase without needing to change the block size. What would happen today if there would be a huge spike in number of bitcoin transactions? I assume a queue of unprocessed transactions would build up, and with a risk of making the network unable to process many of them if the number of transactions would remain at a high plateau.

"Meanwhile, Andresen must also wrestle with a serious problem with Nakamoto’s design. The Bitcoin network is incapable of processing more than seven transactions a second, a tiny volume for a technology with global ambitions. (Only about one Bitcoin transaction is made per second today, but most people who own Bitcoin do so to speculate on its price, not to pay for goods or services). Visa processes almost 480 transactions a second worldwide and can handle up to 47,000 a second at peak times.

“I’m worried about it and there’s a big debate in the Bitcoin community about how are we going to do this,” says Andresen. His favored solution is to increase the size of the “blocks” of transactions that get confirmed by the network of bitcoin miners every 10 minutes. If that doesn’t happen, then getting a transaction processed promptly will require paying a significant transaction fee to promote it ahead of others, he says. Not everyone agrees with Andresen’s proposed fix. Some opponents argue it would make Bitcoin more centralized. Larger blocks would make mining the currency so computationally intensive that only major corporations could do it, they say, giving them a kind of centralized power over the currency’s use." -- http://www.technologyreview.com/news/527051/the-man-who-really-built-bitcoin/
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August 16, 2014, 06:53:50 PM
 #11

I suggest reading this wiki page:
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability

The 7 txps limit is arbitrary, not a design choice, and can be increased quickly if necessary.
Miners won't suffer from this - they only have to confirm each transaction once per pool.
Anders (OP)
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August 16, 2014, 07:20:21 PM
 #12

I suggest reading this wiki page:
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability

The 7 txps limit is arbitrary, not a design choice, and can be increased quickly if necessary.
Miners won't suffer from this - they only have to confirm each transaction once per pool.

Quickly may not fast enough if it takes several weeks to implement as the wiki page said. And the miners must make changes so they can process larger blocks, which too may take a while for them to implement.
Anders (OP)
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August 17, 2014, 05:54:42 PM
 #13

In reality what may happen is that payment channels will be used as a layer on top of Bitcoin. Here is Jeff Garzik talking about payment channels:

CoinSummit London 2014 - Will Bitcoin Last the Distance Beyond the 51% Challenge? -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2q9pItnO0U&t=17m52s

That sounds like a good solution. It will prevent the block chain from becoming bloated and it will allow very fast (I guess) transaction times and a huge number of transactions per second. Would be excellent even for micropayments.
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August 18, 2014, 12:49:11 PM
 #14

Relevant:
https://blockchain.info/charts/n-orphaned-blocks

I don't know though if it's daily orphaned blocks or hourly or what.
Anders (OP)
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August 18, 2014, 02:00:17 PM
 #15

Oh noes! Unless Jeff Garzik meant some new kind of payment channel in the video I posted earlier, I found a big problem with it:

"Example 7: Rapidly-adjusted (micro)payments to a pre-determined party ... This protocol has been implemented in bitcoinj" -- https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts#Example_7:_Rapidly-adjusted_.28micro.29payments_to_a_pre-determined_party

"This article describes how to use payment channels, a way to set up a pending transfer of value from one wallet to another such that the amount that will be transferred is incrementable at high speed and by very small amounts. Whilst this does not allow you to send micropayments at high speed to different recipients each time, many applications can fit within this framework - typically anything that involves micro-billing for a metered service." -- https://bitcoinj.github.io/working-with-micropayments

That's a serious limitation. The customer can only send microtransactions to ONE recipient. So, as I understand it, if you prepay say 0.1 bitcoins to do microtransactions with one company, you will have to make another prepayment in order to be able to do microtransactions with another company, and a third prepayment for a third company/service and so on. That actually sucks.
Anders (OP)
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August 18, 2014, 02:11:21 PM
 #16

Maybe a system of distributed payment channel servers could be used. Then a user can prepay an amount of bitcoins to the payment channel system and use it for fast transactions to all recipients that are connected to the same system.
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August 18, 2014, 03:22:33 PM
 #17

Relevant:
https://blockchain.info/charts/n-orphaned-blocks

I don't know though if it's daily orphaned blocks or hourly or what.

I heard that shorter transaction times leads to more orphaned blocks. And someone said that Bitcoin will probably be used for large transactions. I think that may happen; that the block chain will still have 10 minutes transaction times and relatively few large transactions. And then a layer on top of Bitcoin will handle the fast and smaller transactions with payment channel servers or something similar.

So what we may have in the future are million dollar transactions on the block chain. Cheesy And the large number of ordinary transactions handled on a layer above Bitcoin.
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August 18, 2014, 05:01:09 PM
 #18

I suspect this is going to go one of 2 ways......

1.  Enough third party infrastructure will be built over the core protocol to make small transactions nearly instantaneous.  It is in the interest of the companies building the new ecosystem to increase transactional throughput as much as they can.

2.  If 1 doesn't happen quickly enough (and I suspect it will), an alt-currency with much faster block intervals will force those overseeing the protocol into a decision as to whether BTC is just for large value transactions or needs to change to respond.
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August 20, 2014, 12:46:24 PM
Last edit: August 20, 2014, 01:56:37 PM by Anders
 #19

A distributed system of payment channel servers could have the servers compete with each other in terms of prepayment fees. If there are too few servers and they have large fees in a cartel-like setup, new servers would quickly be added by other people around the world with lower fees. That will make the distributed system self-stabilizing and optimizing in terms of fees (costs for users). And the fees incentive would make sure that there will be enough servers to run the network. If the fees become too low, then many servers will be shut down, but many big merchants will make sure there are enough servers because their business depends on the system.

The fast off-chain transactions can then be done with zero transaction fees, since the fees have already been prepayed. This means minimal friction for the fast transactions all the way down to micropayments. Spam transactions would cost money due to the prepayment fees and will therefore be limited. If the fees go down to zero, then spam transactions would still be unproblematic since the system can handle a massive number of transactions per second. The fees also have a lower limit dependent on ordinary bitcoin transactions since the payment channel servers need to make bitcoin transactions to the block chain, and those ordinary transactions will likely have fees even in the future.

The distributed payment channel system allows both senders and recipients to interact in a full many-to-many way without the need for special payment channel servers for specific services. A customer paying at Starbucks, McDonald's and on an online gambling site can use the same single system.

To use the system the user only needs to prepay an amount of bitcoins to the system as a whole. An algorithm can automatically pick the server with the lowest fee. And the server will receive the fee gradually by performing transactions for the system as a whole and not only for that particular user.

The system needs to be trustless to prevent fraud servers to be able to steal bitcoins from people.
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August 20, 2014, 02:35:08 PM
 #20

I dont really like the 10 minutes. its too long. Sometimes it can take even more time than that. 5 minutes is fine but 1 minute would be optimal for me.

1) Start your own cryptocurrency or create a hard-fork of bitcoin.
2) Invite people to move from bitcoin to "fastcoin"
3) Profit!

Isn't it easy?
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