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Author Topic: Stosselís Currency Conundrum  (Read 2185 times)
Eveofwar
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March 27, 2012, 01:39:34 AM
#1

http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/1484348139001/stossels-currency-conundrum

Bitcoin is mentioned, good little segment.
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Yankee (BitInstant)
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March 27, 2012, 01:57:07 AM
#2

Best line from the segment:

"Well people use Bitcoin to buy marijuana, dont they?"
"Um yes, but people use Cash to buy marijuana as well"

"In a free society, private payments should be covered by merchant-customer privilege just as attorney-client privilege covers confidential legal communication." - Jon Matonis, Director, Bitcoin Foundation
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March 27, 2012, 02:03:43 AM
#3

"The legal status is a bit unclear, but it's a very interesting experiment." - David Barker

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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March 27, 2012, 02:03:57 AM
#4

Best line from the segment:

"Well people use Bitcoin to buy marijuana, dont they?"
"Um yes, but people use Cash to buy marijuana as well"

Short and sweet, but he's providing Bitcoin as a valid alternative to the monetary problem...not trying to fix a drug addiction LOL
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March 27, 2012, 02:10:57 AM
#5

Best line from the segment:

"Well people use Bitcoin to buy marijuana, dont they?"
"Um yes, but people use Cash to buy marijuana as well"

Short and sweet, but he's providing Bitcoin as a valid alternative to the monetary problem...not trying to fix a drug addiction LOL

I know, my point was Stossel's first stupid comment was the oh so predicable drug one. I wanted to show that its a moronic statement and people need to see past it.

Besides, its so much easier and cheaper to buy weed from my local dealer then it is on SR

"In a free society, private payments should be covered by merchant-customer privilege just as attorney-client privilege covers confidential legal communication." - Jon Matonis, Director, Bitcoin Foundation
Eveofwar
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March 27, 2012, 02:19:36 AM
#6

Best line from the segment:

"Well people use Bitcoin to buy marijuana, dont they?"
"Um yes, but people use Cash to buy marijuana as well"

Short and sweet, but he's providing Bitcoin as a valid alternative to the monetary problem...not trying to fix a drug addiction LOL

I know, my point was Stossel's first stupid comment was the oh so predicable drug one. I wanted to show that its a moronic statement and people need to see past it.

Besides, its so much easier and cheaper to buy weed from my local dealer then it is on SR

Maybe it was just a talking point that he wanted to hit on.  Stossel is a Libertarian and would prefer for all things of that matter to be legalized.

I enjoyed it though.
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March 27, 2012, 05:54:31 AM
#7

I know, my point was Stossel's first stupid comment was the oh so predicable drug one. I wanted to show that its a moronic statement and people need to see past it.

Besides, its so much easier and cheaper to buy weed from my local dealer then it is on SR

Stossel is a libertarian. He's just doing the common reaction to something like Bitcoin to get a knowledgeable guest to easily shoot it down. It's a good back-and-forth between two people that ultimately agree with each other, but he's just stating the immediate and obvious contrarian point in order to show why that point is so silly. So yeah, you're right, it's a silly statement, but one that probably needed to be addressed.

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Phinnaeus Gage
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March 27, 2012, 06:43:11 AM
#8

I know, my point was Stossel's first stupid comment was the oh so predicable drug one. I wanted to show that its a moronic statement and people need to see past it.

Besides, its so much easier and cheaper to buy weed from my local dealer then it is on SR

Stossel is a libertarian. He's just doing the common reaction to something like Bitcoin to get a knowledgeable guest to easily shoot it down. It's a good back-and-forth between two people that ultimately agree with each other, but he's just stating the immediate and obvious contrarian point in order to show why that point is so silly. So yeah, you're right, it's a silly statement, but one that probably needed to be addressed.

I'm not sure what the Nielsen rating is for Stossel's show, but it did offer up to its viewers awareness to Bitcoin, as well as informing those not in the know that drugs can be purchased online with same and fiat.

~Bruno~

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March 27, 2012, 08:10:08 AM
#9

There is a corresponding blog post by Stossel:
 - http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2012/03/01/stossel-dollars

And as far as the allegation that private currency is illegal, the U.S. Attorney's political commentary after the Nothaus trial does not a law make:
 - http://mises.org/daily/5184

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March 27, 2012, 05:10:37 PM
#10

There is a corresponding blog post by Stossel:
 - http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2012/03/01/stossel-dollars

And as far as the allegation that private currency is illegal, the U.S. Attorney's political commentary after the Nothaus trial does not a law make:
 - http://mises.org/daily/5184

Quote
Article 1, Section 8, Clause 5 of the United States Constitution delegates to Congress the power to coin money and to regulate the value thereof. This power was delegated to Congress in order to establish a uniform standard of value. Along with the power to coin money, Congress has the concurrent power to restrain the circulation of money not issued under its own authority, in order to protect and preserve the constitutional currency for the benefit of the nation. Thus, it is a violation of law for private coin systems to compete with the official coinage of the United States.

Looks like this kid needed to be arrested upon exiting Chuck E. Cheese.



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March 27, 2012, 05:15:27 PM
#11

... the power to coin money ...
Perhaps this phrase specifically means the minting of coins.
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March 27, 2012, 05:26:27 PM
#12

There is a corresponding blog post by Stossel:
 - http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2012/03/01/stossel-dollars

And as far as the allegation that private currency is illegal, the U.S. Attorney's political commentary after the Nothaus trial does not a law make:
 - http://mises.org/daily/5184

Quote
Article 1, Section 8, Clause 5 of the United States Constitution delegates to Congress the power to coin money and to regulate the value thereof. This power was delegated to Congress in order to establish a uniform standard of value. Along with the power to coin money, Congress has the concurrent power to restrain the circulation of money not issued under its own authority, in order to protect and preserve the constitutional currency for the benefit of the nation. Thus, it is a violation of law for private coin systems to compete with the official coinage of the United States.

Looks like this kid needed to be arrested upon exiting Chuck E. Cheese.





Might Bitcoin be unconstitutional?  Yes.

Would it be enforceable with a digital currency where offshore intermediaries serve to accept Bitcoins and pay merchants in USD?  Unlikely, as long as those intermediaries can operate freely on foreign soil.

Would this whole situation be attractive to merchants?  No.
benjamindees
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March 27, 2012, 06:01:26 PM
#13

It is unfortunate that Stossel repeated this mis-truth that private currencies are illegal.  Though Ron Paul tends to spread this misconception as well, so he is not alone.

This is based upon an incorrect understanding of "powers" granted the Federal government by the Constitution.

In short, a "power" is basically permission to violate rights.  In the case of the power to "coin money", the power conveyed and the right violated are subtle.  It is not, as widely believed, the power to seize private property via monetary monopoly and inflationary confiscation.  That would have been in direct violation of the "just compensation" required by the takings clause in the 5th Amendment, and a general nullification of the basic right to property.

The power to coin money is simply the power to violate the usual presumption that possession equals ownership, in the limited case of "coins" minted by the Federal government.  That means that a coin, once minted by the Federal government, remains the property of the government even when placed in general circulation.  That is the reason you cannot mutilate or destroy them, and they can be seized at will (as was the case with FDR confiscating gold coins).  They are not yours.  

Render unto Caesar...

Furthermore, the Federal government was never specifically granted the power to prohibit "competing" currencies.  The Constitution does not grant a monetary monopoly.  This is what is being claimed as an implied power yet, as we can all see, has terrible implications and is in direct violation of the Constitution and a threat to the fundamental right to private property.  None of the founders would have deliberately intended this interpretation of the Constitution.

In fact, this lie of monetary monopoly was constructed by a few private bankers for their own lucrative gain, in order to outlaw competitors.  These same private interests now control the US money supply through the private Federal Reserve Bank, and via their strategic control over key government officials, in order to maintain their monopoly rents through color of law.

That is not to say, however, that private currencies cannot be (and haven't in the past been) regulated for other reasons, such as to prevent fraud or outright theft.  But that is another matter entirely, and not related to Bitcoin or the legality of private currencies in general.

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March 27, 2012, 06:44:54 PM
#14

Ron Paul uses the term "illegal" to refer to the exchange of said currency without government taxation. In other words, while it's not strictly illegal, he knows for certain the government would want it to be.

I'm sure the Federal Reserve doesn't want competing currencies, but Bitcoin is so low on the radar right now they don't even consider it. It's far more resource-conserving to merely ignore Bitcoin right now.

Of course, if you guys start actually using it to avoid taxes when bargaining you're going to finally get enough value in it for them to consider doing something. Right now they can just ignore that it exists.

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March 28, 2012, 08:40:36 PM
#15

I know, my point was Stossel's first stupid comment was the oh so predicable drug one. I wanted to show that its a moronic statement and people need to see past it.

Besides, its so much easier and cheaper to buy weed from my local dealer then it is on SR

Stossel is a libertarian. He's just doing the common reaction to something like Bitcoin to get a knowledgeable guest to easily shoot it down. It's a good back-and-forth between two people that ultimately agree with each other, but he's just stating the immediate and obvious contrarian point in order to show why that point is so silly. So yeah, you're right, it's a silly statement, but one that probably needed to be addressed.

Stossel is always using the devils advocate.

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March 29, 2012, 12:43:49 AM
#16

Interesting segment. It adds weight to my opinion that Bitcoin is being "managed", just like gold is.

And to back up my crazy tin-foil-hat assertions, here's a ZH article on gold: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/chris-martenson-explains-how-gold-manipulated-and-why-thats-okay

with the very interesting comment:
Quote
Gold is an important signaling mechanism, and our entire money system is faith-based. Of course anything and everything that could cast doubt on that system would be controlled if it could be controlled.
(my emphasis added)

Could Bitcoin be on that list?
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March 29, 2012, 02:10:31 AM
#17

Interesting segment. It adds weight to my opinion that Bitcoin is being "managed", just like gold is.

And to back up my crazy tin-foil-hat assertions, here's a ZH article on gold: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/chris-martenson-explains-how-gold-manipulated-and-why-thats-okay

with the very interesting comment:
Quote
Gold is an important signaling mechanism, and our entire money system is faith-based. Of course anything and everything that could cast doubt on that system would be controlled if it could be controlled.
(my emphasis added)

Could Bitcoin be on that list?
It's written in a blog, so it must be true.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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March 29, 2012, 03:04:20 AM
#18

Interesting segment. It adds weight to my opinion that Bitcoin is being "managed", just like gold is.

And to back up my crazy tin-foil-hat assertions, here's a ZH article on gold: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/chris-martenson-explains-how-gold-manipulated-and-why-thats-okay

with the very interesting comment:
Quote
Gold is an important signaling mechanism, and our entire money system is faith-based. Of course anything and everything that could cast doubt on that system would be controlled if it could be controlled.
(my emphasis added)

Could Bitcoin be on that list?

But can it be controlled?

While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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Phinnaeus Gage
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March 29, 2012, 03:25:54 AM
#19

Quote
I'm sure the Federal Reserve doesn't want competing currencies, but Bitcoin is so low on the radar right now they don't even consider it. It's far more resource-conserving to merely ignore Bitcoin right now.

It's good to know that the Federal Reserve doesn't communicate with the CIA.

Gavin will visit the CIA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv4q4i2Ktd0

~Bruno~

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March 29, 2012, 03:32:40 AM
#20

It is unfortunate that Stossel repeated this mis-truth that private currencies are illegal.  Though Ron Paul tends to spread this misconception as well, so he is not alone.

This is based upon an incorrect understanding of "powers" granted the Federal government by the Constitution.

In short, a "power" is basically permission to violate rights.  In the case of the power to "coin money", the power conveyed and the right violated are subtle.  It is not, as widely believed, the power to seize private property via monetary monopoly and inflationary confiscation.  That would have been in direct violation of the "just compensation" required by the takings clause in the 5th Amendment, and a general nullification of the basic right to property.

The power to coin money is simply the power to violate the usual presumption that possession equals ownership, in the limited case of "coins" minted by the Federal government.  That means that a coin, once minted by the Federal government, remains the property of the government even when placed in general circulation.  That is the reason you cannot mutilate or destroy them, and they can be seized at will (as was the case with FDR confiscating gold coins).  They are not yours.  


Actually, you can mutilate or destroy them.  Have you never seen the penny presses at tourist traps?  You put in 51 cents, and the machine presses your penny into a little keepsake with a new image on it.  They are all over Walt Disney World, for example.  I seriously doubt that Disney Corp is going to be caught off guard doing something illegal.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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