Bitcoin Forum
October 17, 2021, 11:27:38 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 22.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 [All]
  Print  
Author Topic: [Bitshares] bitUSD discussion  (Read 18345 times)
ChuckOne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 05:26:18 PM
Last edit: August 23, 2014, 09:25:21 AM by ChuckOne
 #1

source https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/bitshares-the-great-satan-on-the-blockchain/


Kinda like how a $100 bill is worth $100 just because everybody believes it to be so? Exactly. Wink

The power of bitUSD is that it does not have a fixed supply. The BTSX network "prints" as much bitUSD as is necessary to keep the price of bitUSD below that of fiatUSD, and destroys as much as necessary to keep the price above that of fiatUSD. Hence, the price of bitUSD can be neither above nor below that of fiatUSD.

It's very simple: fixed supply = variable price, and fixed price = variable supply.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

The Federal Reserve controls the USD supply.

Replace "Federal Reserve" with "DAC" and add "bit" to "USD"...

The DAC controls the bitUSD supply.

CONGRATULATIONS! YOU'VE JUST INVENTED FEDERAL RESERVE 2.0!

That's the goal. Now what if you had a chance to purchase shares in the Fed in 1920?

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

Bitshares is self-admittedly an attempt to recreate a central banking scheme in crypto form.  Bitshares' DPoS is a centralized consensus system that relies upon a set number of nodes achieving consensus.

Quote
In practice BitShares isn't a distributed system, it is more like coordinated synchronized time shared centralized system.  -bytemaster

These 101 delegates are responsible for including transactions on the bitshares network.  Now think about this.  The DAC attempts to set monetary policy for the "bit assets" depending on the market price.  If there are more sellers, the DAC destroys bit assets.  If there are more buyers, the DAC prints more bit assets.  So, whoever controls the transactions included on the blockchain controls the DAC or monetary policy that the DAC enacts on the entire network.  Who controls the transactions included on the blockchain?  The 101 delegates.

How does the Federal Reserve set the monetary policy for the US dollar?

Federal Reserve monetary policy is decided by the FOMC (Federal Open Market Committee).  What is the FOMC?

Quote
It is this Federal Reserve committee which makes key decisions about interest rates and the growth of the United States money supply. -Wikipedia

The Federal Reserve achieves consensus on its monetary policy via a committee made up of delegates.

Bitshares = "Federal Reserve 2.0"
Bitshares' delegates = FOMC
1634513258
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1634513258

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1634513258
Reply with quote  #2

1634513258
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
ChuckOne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 05:27:40 PM
Last edit: August 22, 2014, 05:43:32 PM by ChuckOne
 #2

Actually, I do not speculate on things like those but regarding the recent upsurge of the trust in BitShares I am curious about the opinion and insights of others.

I mean how could anybody in the crypto community would want to mirror the FED?

I cannot believe that to be true.
bitcoinpaul
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 910
Merit: 1000



View Profile
August 22, 2014, 06:09:48 PM
 #3

Who's the user biophil?
StanLarimer
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 504
Merit: 500


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 06:59:30 PM
 #4

Actually, I do not speculate on things like those but regarding the recent upsurge of the trust in BitShares I am curious about the opinion and insights of others.

I mean how could anybody in the crypto community would want to mirror the FED?

I cannot believe that to be true.

Precisely.  Anyone who has done their homework and spent any time at all on bitsharestalk.org over the past year knows that BitShares is the antidote to the Federal Reserve's 100+ years of economic atrocities.   Smiley

But do yourselves a favor and study before you decide if this is the Next Big Thing or not. 

"Knowledge and Understanding is the ultimate Proof of Work.Smiley

toast
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 1484
Merit: 253



View Profile
August 22, 2014, 07:00:20 PM
 #5

this is hilarious, please don't stop

████
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
████
█████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████


████████████████████████▄▄▄█████▄▄▄██████████████████████████████████████████████
████▄█████▄█▄███▄█▄██████████▄██▀▀▀██████████████████████████████████████████████
████████▀████▄████▀██████████████████████████▄█████▄██▄█████▄████▄████▄████▄██
███████████▐█████▌███████████▄█████▀███▀▀████████▀▀▀▀█████▀▀▀██████▀▀███▀▀█████
████████▄████▀████▄██████████████████▄▄▄▄▄███▄▄▄▄█████▄▄▄██████████████████
██████████▀█▀███▀█▀██████████▀███████▀█████████▀█████▀██▀█████▀█████████████████
████████████████████████▀▀▀██████████████████████████████████████████████████████



█████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
████
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
████
.
█▀▀▀











█▄▄▄
.
WELCOME BONUS UP TO 7 BTC!
▀▀▀█











▄▄▄█
▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
.
▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
█▀▀▀▀▀











█▄▄▄▄▄
.
BET NOW
▀▀▀▀▀█











▄▄▄▄▄█
ChuckOne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 07:08:39 PM
 #6

Actually, I do not speculate on things like those but regarding the recent upsurge of the trust in BitShares I am curious about the opinion and insights of others.

I mean how could anybody in the crypto community would want to mirror the FED?

I cannot believe that to be true.

Precisely.  Anyone who has done their homework and spent any time at all on bitsharestalk.org over the past year knows that BitShares is the antidote to the Federal Reserve's 100+ years of economic atrocities.   Smiley

But do yourselves a favor and study before you decide if this is the Next Big Thing or not. 

"Knowledge and Understanding is the ultimate Proof of Work.Smiley

I am not sure if it is an antidote or just a replacement that changes nothing.

Not sure if you read http://invictus-innovations.com/bitshares-as-dac-bank/

But fractional reserve lending is about robbing the wealth of others. I am not sure if that is in the best interest of the crypto community.
toast
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 1484
Merit: 253



View Profile
August 22, 2014, 07:12:29 PM
 #7

Actually, I do not speculate on things like those but regarding the recent upsurge of the trust in BitShares I am curious about the opinion and insights of others.

I mean how could anybody in the crypto community would want to mirror the FED?

I cannot believe that to be true.

Precisely.  Anyone who has done their homework and spent any time at all on bitsharestalk.org over the past year knows that BitShares is the antidote to the Federal Reserve's 100+ years of economic atrocities.   Smiley

But do yourselves a favor and study before you decide if this is the Next Big Thing or not. 

"Knowledge and Understanding is the ultimate Proof of Work.Smiley

I am not sure if it is an antidote or just a replacement that changes nothing.

Not sure if you read http://invictus-innovations.com/bitshares-as-dac-bank/

But fractional reserve lending is about robbing the wealth of others. I am not sure if that is in the best interest of the crypto community.

Except it's 150%+ reserve, not fractional reserve.
Does that change how you feel?

████
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
████
█████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████


████████████████████████▄▄▄█████▄▄▄██████████████████████████████████████████████
████▄█████▄█▄███▄█▄██████████▄██▀▀▀██████████████████████████████████████████████
████████▀████▄████▀██████████████████████████▄█████▄██▄█████▄████▄████▄████▄██
███████████▐█████▌███████████▄█████▀███▀▀████████▀▀▀▀█████▀▀▀██████▀▀███▀▀█████
████████▄████▀████▄██████████████████▄▄▄▄▄███▄▄▄▄█████▄▄▄██████████████████
██████████▀█▀███▀█▀██████████▀███████▀█████████▀█████▀██▀█████▀█████████████████
████████████████████████▀▀▀██████████████████████████████████████████████████████



█████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
████
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
████
.
█▀▀▀











█▄▄▄
.
WELCOME BONUS UP TO 7 BTC!
▀▀▀█











▄▄▄█
▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
.
▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
█▀▀▀▀▀











█▄▄▄▄▄
.
BET NOW
▀▀▀▀▀█











▄▄▄▄▄█
Brilliantrocket
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 826
Merit: 500



View Profile
August 22, 2014, 07:13:44 PM
 #8

This is a fucking travesty. What kind of degenerate scum would support this blatantly regressive scheme?
toast
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 1484
Merit: 253



View Profile
August 22, 2014, 07:14:02 PM
 #9

Quote
These 101 delegates are responsible for including transactions on the bitshares network.  Now think about this.  The DAC attempts to set monetary policy for the "bit assets" depending on the market price.  If there are more sellers, the DAC destroys bit assets.  If there are more buyers, the DAC prints more bit assets.  So, whoever controls the transactions included on the blockchain controls the DAC or monetary policy that the DAC enacts on the entire network.  Who controls the transactions included on the blockchain?  The 101 delegates.

Also total FUD, the delegates do not dictate the supply of BitUSD, the traders do. Delegates are only used for the consensus protocol, if they exclude transactions to try to skew the peg then at best they can lose money and get fired...

████
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
████
█████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████


████████████████████████▄▄▄█████▄▄▄██████████████████████████████████████████████
████▄█████▄█▄███▄█▄██████████▄██▀▀▀██████████████████████████████████████████████
████████▀████▄████▀██████████████████████████▄█████▄██▄█████▄████▄████▄████▄██
███████████▐█████▌███████████▄█████▀███▀▀████████▀▀▀▀█████▀▀▀██████▀▀███▀▀█████
████████▄████▀████▄██████████████████▄▄▄▄▄███▄▄▄▄█████▄▄▄██████████████████
██████████▀█▀███▀█▀██████████▀███████▀█████████▀█████▀██▀█████▀█████████████████
████████████████████████▀▀▀██████████████████████████████████████████████████████



█████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
████
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
████
.
█▀▀▀











█▄▄▄
.
WELCOME BONUS UP TO 7 BTC!
▀▀▀█











▄▄▄█
▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
.
▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
█▀▀▀▀▀











█▄▄▄▄▄
.
BET NOW
▀▀▀▀▀█











▄▄▄▄▄█
PilotofBTC
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1736
Merit: 1001


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 07:14:18 PM
 #10

Where is the fractional lending? Perhaps I am missing it?

You can borrow bitUSD against XTS (BTSX?). You can only borrow up to 50% of your collateral (XTS) and if the value of the collateral drops the loan (short) is covered.
Anders
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 126
Merit: 100



View Profile
August 22, 2014, 07:14:44 PM
 #11

BitSharesX is at the third position now and is skyrocketing: http://coinmarketcap.com/

I must learn more about BitSharesX! It's something about short and long investments.
instacalm
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 798
Merit: 500



View Profile
August 22, 2014, 07:17:17 PM
 #12

ChuckOne I seriously facepalmed when I read this topic, is this the new indirect NXT promotion derived from lack of BTS understanding? Not cool
Indemnified
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 216
Merit: 100


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 07:22:46 PM
 #13

Where is the fractional lending? Perhaps I am missing it?

You can borrow bitUSD against XTS (BTSX?). You can only borrow up to 50% of your collateral (XTS) and if the value of the collateral drops the loan (short) is covered.


There is no fractional reserve. OP is posting without any knowledge of how BitsharesX is intended to work. In fact, the experiment is attempting to accomplish exactly the opposite of what OP is suggesting.

Two of the major memes at their website are:

The revolution will not be centralized.

and

Andrew Jackson's "I killed the bank"
FandangledGizmo
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1139
Merit: 1001


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 07:28:46 PM
 #14

Is that the same ChuckOne who was posting in the ethereum Bitshares collaboration thread?

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=6990.msg95311#msg95311

Pretty hysterical if it is Smiley

Reeks of desperation.

NXT tried to do a similar full on anti-marketing campaign with Ethereum I think. (Which I'm not an investor in at all.)

Basically anyone that's not NXT is evil Smiley
ChuckOne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 07:29:18 PM
 #15

ChuckOne I seriously facepalmed when I read this topic, is this the new NXT promotion derived from lack of BTS understanding? Not cool


This is the way to understand why we would endorse a system where humans can control the money supply? It will definitely get misused.

This thread is about elucidation of people (and me) to learn what are the properties and the limits of such system and are there dangers to be known by investors.


Statements such as:

The Federal Reserve controls the USD supply.

Replace "Federal Reserve" with "DAC" and add "bit" to "USD"...

The DAC controls the bitUSD supply.

CONGRATULATIONS! YOU'VE JUST INVENTED FEDERAL RESERVE 2.0!

That's the goal. Now what if you had a chance to purchase shares in the Fed in 1920?

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

do not inspire confidence, I have to say. They rather tell me that people endorsing this system do have intentions I am not willing to share.

They do not want to change the status quo but rather repeat history and pull out money from people.


As usual I am concerned, so the best way out I know is asking. Smiley
ChuckOne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 07:32:47 PM
 #16

Is that the same ChuckOne who was posting in the ethereum Bitshares collaboration thread?

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=6990.msg95311#msg95311

Yes, he is.

Pretty hysterical if it is Smiley

Reeks of desperation.

NXT tried to do a similar full on anti-marketing campaign with Ethereum I think. (Which I'm not an investor in at all.)

Basically anyone that's not NXT is evil Smiley

I do not think that. Why do you think we would want cooperation? Cooperation is only possible between peers with the same intentions. And that is what I am going to question here.

If the intentions are good, we are alright. If not, I got problems to endorse a cooperation.
TaunSew
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 756
Merit: 506


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 07:39:46 PM
 #17

4/5+ of biTshares' volume comes from Chinese exchanges. 

http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitshares-x/#markets

Actually it's less than that if we look at top 5 (Poloniex is only $14K versus $2+ million).  Practically all the Bitshare trading is done on Chinese exchanges which are alleged to engage in manipulation.


There ain't no Revolution like a NEMolution.  The only solution is Bitcoin's dissolution! NEM!
FandangledGizmo
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1139
Merit: 1001


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 07:44:30 PM
 #18

4/5+ of biTshares' volume comes from Chinese exchanges. 

http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitshares-x/#markets

Actually it's less than that if we look at top 5 (Poloniex is only $14K versus $2+ million).  Practically all the Bitshare trading is done on Chinese exchanges which are alleged to engage in manipulation.



How Big is the NXT Chinese community on your forums?
Maybe you should look at ours...
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?board=4.0

Btc38 also has an English site, so I've traded on there myself, including BTSX/CNY because of volumes.

You NXT guys are awesome Smiley
TaunSew
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 756
Merit: 506


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 07:46:10 PM
 #19

4/5+ of biTshares' volume comes from Chinese exchanges.  

http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitshares-x/#markets

Actually it's less than that if we look at top 5 (Poloniex is only $14K versus $2+ million).  Practically all the Bitshare trading is done on Chinese exchanges which are alleged to engage in manipulation.



How Big is the NXT Chinese community on your forums?
Maybe you should look at ours...
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?board=4.0

Btc38 also has an English site, so I've traded on there myself, including BTSX/CNY because of volumes.

You NXT guys are awesome Smiley

That wasn't really my point.  I know that most of NXT volume is Chinese too but not to the same extent.  Maybe only $10K - $15K is non-Chinese volume as of today at $57K volume.

When the Chinese are spending like $2+ million volume on Bitshares (while non-Chinese is like $10K-$15K), it makes us wonder if this is all manipulation or a lot of future Chinese bagholders.

There ain't no Revolution like a NEMolution.  The only solution is Bitcoin's dissolution! NEM!
toast
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 1484
Merit: 253



View Profile
August 22, 2014, 07:46:43 PM
 #20


Statements such as:

...

do not inspire confidence, I have to say. They rather tell me that people endorsing this system do have intentions I am not willing to share.

They do not want to change the status quo but rather repeat history and pull out money from people.


As usual I am concerned, so the best way out I know is asking. Smiley

"they" here is a random pumping zealot, not a member of the team

████
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
████
█████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████


████████████████████████▄▄▄█████▄▄▄██████████████████████████████████████████████
████▄█████▄█▄███▄█▄██████████▄██▀▀▀██████████████████████████████████████████████
████████▀████▄████▀██████████████████████████▄█████▄██▄█████▄████▄████▄████▄██
███████████▐█████▌███████████▄█████▀███▀▀████████▀▀▀▀█████▀▀▀██████▀▀███▀▀█████
████████▄████▀████▄██████████████████▄▄▄▄▄███▄▄▄▄█████▄▄▄██████████████████
██████████▀█▀███▀█▀██████████▀███████▀█████████▀█████▀██▀█████▀█████████████████
████████████████████████▀▀▀██████████████████████████████████████████████████████



█████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
████
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
████
.
█▀▀▀











█▄▄▄
.
WELCOME BONUS UP TO 7 BTC!
▀▀▀█











▄▄▄█
▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
.
▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
█▀▀▀▀▀











█▄▄▄▄▄
.
BET NOW
▀▀▀▀▀█











▄▄▄▄▄█
ChuckOne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 07:47:43 PM
 #21


Statements such as:

...

do not inspire confidence, I have to say. They rather tell me that people endorsing this system do have intentions I am not willing to share.

They do not want to change the status quo but rather repeat history and pull out money from people.


As usual I am concerned, so the best way out I know is asking. Smiley

"they" here is a random pumping zealot, not a member of the team


Alright. But he seems pretty confident about his "idea".
FandangledGizmo
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1139
Merit: 1001


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 07:48:57 PM
 #22

4/5+ of biTshares' volume comes from Chinese exchanges. 

http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitshares-x/#markets

Actually it's less than that if we look at top 5 (Poloniex is only $14K versus $2+ million).  Practically all the Bitshare trading is done on Chinese exchanges which are alleged to engage in manipulation.



How Big is the NXT Chinese community on your forums?
Maybe you should look at ours...
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?board=4.0

Btc38 also has an English site, so I've traded on there myself, including BTSX/CNY because of volumes.

You NXT guys are awesome Smiley

That wasn't really my point.  I know that most of NXT volume is Chinese too much not to the same extent.  Maybe only $10K - $15K is non-Chinese volume.

When the Chinese are spending like $2+ million volume on Bitshares (while non-Chinese is like $10K-$15K), it makes us wonder if this is all manipulation or a lot of future Chinese bagholders.


Lol, the reason NXT has consistently low volumes on any exchange when compared to any other crypto is because you had terrible initial distribution. (21 BTC raised & 75 people max or something.) So you have a very low amount circulating compared to other alts.
ChuckOne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 07:50:23 PM
 #23

Lol, the reason NXT has consistently low volumes on any exchange when compared to any other crypto is because you had terrible initial distribution. (21 BTC raised & 75 people max or something.) So you have a very low amount circulating compared to other alts.

Guys, if you want to talk about prices and volumes, this is off-topic here.
PilotofBTC
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1736
Merit: 1001


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 07:55:22 PM
 #24

4/5+ of biTshares' volume comes from Chinese exchanges. 

http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitshares-x/#markets

Actually it's less than that if we look at top 5 (Poloniex is only $14K versus $2+ million).  Practically all the Bitshare trading is done on Chinese exchanges which are alleged to engage in manipulation.



How Big is the NXT Chinese community on your forums?
Maybe you should look at ours...
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?board=4.0

Btc38 also has an English site, so I've traded on there myself, including BTSX/CNY because of volumes.

You NXT guys are awesome Smiley

Judge individuals, not groups.
PilotofBTC
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1736
Merit: 1001


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 07:57:24 PM
 #25

Lol, the reason NXT has consistently low volumes on any exchange when compared to any other crypto is because you had terrible initial distribution. (21 BTC raised & 75 people max or something.) So you have a very low amount circulating compared to other alts.

That old saw? Can't the same be said about BTC? NXT is much more distributed now than what it was forever ago. Although, BTC isn't.
TaunSew
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 756
Merit: 506


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 07:59:08 PM
 #26

4/5+ of biTshares' volume comes from Chinese exchanges.  

http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitshares-x/#markets

Actually it's less than that if we look at top 5 (Poloniex is only $14K versus $2+ million).  Practically all the Bitshare trading is done on Chinese exchanges which are alleged to engage in manipulation.



How Big is the NXT Chinese community on your forums?
Maybe you should look at ours...
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?board=4.0

Btc38 also has an English site, so I've traded on there myself, including BTSX/CNY because of volumes.

You NXT guys are awesome Smiley

That wasn't really my point.  I know that most of NXT volume is Chinese too much not to the same extent.  Maybe only $10K - $15K is non-Chinese volume.

When the Chinese are spending like $2+ million volume on Bitshares (while non-Chinese is like $10K-$15K), it makes us wonder if this is all manipulation or a lot of future Chinese bagholders.


Lol, the reason NXT has consistently low volumes on any exchange when compared to any other crypto is because you had terrible initial distribution. (21 BTC raised & 75 people max or something.) So you have a very low amount circulating compared to other alts.

The distribution was of a different scale but there were whales in both Angelshares and PTS and they were transferred over to BTSx.  Much like there are buy threads where people have bought 3%+ of BTSx.

It's irrelevant if a distribution is 75 or 500 as a coin isn't killed by its' scale of users but whether how many whales there are and how much confidence they have in a coin and if there is enough subsequent buyers to buy them out when they dump.  I don't see that being the case here as the main reason for huge BTSx volume is a combination of Chinese funds (there's posts on BTSx proving it) and possible manipulation by the exchanges.

That means the funds are either going to dump as soon as they realize enough profit or the lack of subsequent volume will drive prices down as there'll be no more premium buyers.


BTW - NXT was $90 million in early June and had similar volume.  


There ain't no Revolution like a NEMolution.  The only solution is Bitcoin's dissolution! NEM!
zorco
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 22
Merit: 0


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 08:01:08 PM
 #27

Actually, I do not speculate on things like those but regarding the recent upsurge of the trust in BitShares I am curious about the opinion and insights of others.

I mean how could anybody in the crypto community would want to mirror the FED?

I cannot believe that to be true.

Precisely.  Anyone who has done their homework and spent any time at all on bitsharestalk.org over the past year knows that BitShares is the antidote to the Federal Reserve's 100+ years of economic atrocities.   Smiley

But do yourselves a favor and study before you decide if this is the Next Big Thing or not.  

"Knowledge and Understanding is the ultimate Proof of Work."  Smiley

I am not sure if it is an antidote or just a replacement that changes nothing.

Not sure if you read http://invictus-innovations.com/bitshares-as-dac-bank/

But fractional reserve lending is about robbing the wealth of others. I am not sure if that is in the best interest of the crypto community.
lol so you read that article and you are saying  that : "how could anybody in the crypto community would want to mirror the FED?" ...  I'm sorry but you completely got it wrong. You probably should read it again.
PilotofBTC
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1736
Merit: 1001


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 08:08:54 PM
 #28

My only problem with the article and the comparison is that a house, real estate, has intrinsic value.

What gives a BitShare intrinsic value that makes it valuable collateral for creating bitUSD from?
FandangledGizmo
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1139
Merit: 1001


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 08:10:19 PM
 #29

4/5+ of biTshares' volume comes from Chinese exchanges.  

http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitshares-x/#markets

Actually it's less than that if we look at top 5 (Poloniex is only $14K versus $2+ million).  Practically all the Bitshare trading is done on Chinese exchanges which are alleged to engage in manipulation.



How Big is the NXT Chinese community on your forums?
Maybe you should look at ours...
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?board=4.0

Btc38 also has an English site, so I've traded on there myself, including BTSX/CNY because of volumes.

You NXT guys are awesome Smiley

That wasn't really my point.  I know that most of NXT volume is Chinese too much not to the same extent.  Maybe only $10K - $15K is non-Chinese volume.

When the Chinese are spending like $2+ million volume on Bitshares (while non-Chinese is like $10K-$15K), it makes us wonder if this is all manipulation or a lot of future Chinese bagholders.


Lol, the reason NXT has consistently low volumes on any exchange when compared to any other crypto is because you had terrible initial distribution. (21 BTC raised & 75 people max or something.) So you have a very low amount circulating compared to other alts.

The distribution was of a different scale but there were whales in both Angelshares and PTS and they were transferred over to BTSx.  Much like there are buy threads where people have bought 3%+ of BTSx.

It's irrelevant if a distribution is 75 or 500 as a coin isn't killed by its' scale of users but whether how many whales there are and how much confidence they have in a coin and if there is enough subsequent buyers to buy them out when they dump.  I don't see that being the case here as the main reason for huge BTSx volume is a combination of Chinese funds (there's posts on BTSx proving it) and manipulation by the exchanges.

That means the funds are either going to dump as soon as they realize enough profit or the lack of subsequent volume will drive prices down as there'll be no more premium buyers.


BTW - NXT was $90 million in early June and had similar volume.  



There could certainly be a major correction after such a rapid climb and I don't reccomend anyone invest in something because it's high/made gains. I also suggest people try to learn about BitAssets on the forum & do their due diligence.

The reasons it's high though imo is that BitAssets are starting Monday probably,  if they work well it's a game changer.

I suggest people try look into them over the weekend or believe ChuckOne and TaunSew and stay in NXT etc. next week for the launch...
zorco
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 22
Merit: 0


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 08:15:24 PM
 #30

My only problem with the article and the comparison is that a house, real estate, has intrinsic value.

What gives a BitShare intrinsic value that makes it valuable collateral for creating bitUSD from?

What gives bitcoin  intrinsic value ?
PilotofBTC
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1736
Merit: 1001


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 08:17:48 PM
 #31

My only problem with the article and the comparison is that a house, real estate, has intrinsic value.

What gives a BitShare intrinsic value that makes it valuable collateral for creating bitUSD from?

What gives bitcoin  intrinsic value ?

Nothing?
ChuckOne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 08:19:06 PM
 #32

@FandangledGizmo

I do not know what I tell what people could believe. I was asking a question.
TaunSew
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 756
Merit: 506


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 08:19:09 PM
 #33

4/5+ of biTshares' volume comes from Chinese exchanges.  

http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitshares-x/#markets

Actually it's less than that if we look at top 5 (Poloniex is only $14K versus $2+ million).  Practically all the Bitshare trading is done on Chinese exchanges which are alleged to engage in manipulation.



How Big is the NXT Chinese community on your forums?
Maybe you should look at ours...
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?board=4.0

Btc38 also has an English site, so I've traded on there myself, including BTSX/CNY because of volumes.

You NXT guys are awesome Smiley

That wasn't really my point.  I know that most of NXT volume is Chinese too much not to the same extent.  Maybe only $10K - $15K is non-Chinese volume.

When the Chinese are spending like $2+ million volume on Bitshares (while non-Chinese is like $10K-$15K), it makes us wonder if this is all manipulation or a lot of future Chinese bagholders.


Lol, the reason NXT has consistently low volumes on any exchange when compared to any other crypto is because you had terrible initial distribution. (21 BTC raised & 75 people max or something.) So you have a very low amount circulating compared to other alts.

The distribution was of a different scale but there were whales in both Angelshares and PTS and they were transferred over to BTSx.  Much like there are buy threads where people have bought 3%+ of BTSx.

It's irrelevant if a distribution is 75 or 500 as a coin isn't killed by its' scale of users but whether how many whales there are and how much confidence they have in a coin and if there is enough subsequent buyers to buy them out when they dump.  I don't see that being the case here as the main reason for huge BTSx volume is a combination of Chinese funds (there's posts on BTSx proving it) and manipulation by the exchanges.

That means the funds are either going to dump as soon as they realize enough profit or the lack of subsequent volume will drive prices down as there'll be no more premium buyers.


BTW - NXT was $90 million in early June and had similar volume.  



There could certainly be a major correction after such a rapid climb and I don't reccomend anyone invest in something because it's high/made gains. I also suggest people try to learn about BitAssets on the forum & do their due diligence.

The reasons it's high though imo is that BitAssets are starting Monday probably,  if they work well it's a game changer.

I suggest people try look into them over the weekend or believe ChuckOne and TaunSew and stay in NXT etc. next week for the launch...


Oh sure.  I see the rhetoric here.  Yeah don't listen to ChuckOne or TaunSew, sell your house and put it into BitShares.  Get all yo gold and put it into BitShares, this thing is gonna hit $1 trillion in the next 30 days!  Buy now it just went up another 10% in the last minute!!

 Most people have nothing to gain from buying what is obviously a speculative hype bubble at the top of it.  You don't know $hit anymore then I do as bitAssets isn't released until monday.

This is the same 'tard speculative buy that happens in every alternate each time there's 'good news'.

 Dogecoin went up because they sponsored a bunch of Jamaicans at the Olympics and it was all internal users (existing users) buying into what they felt would be subsequent users racing in to buy Doge at a premium  This BitsharesX stuff is no different.  There's more speculators than users in this current market and when the speculator bubble pops there's often a huge correction.


There ain't no Revolution like a NEMolution.  The only solution is Bitcoin's dissolution! NEM!
ChuckOne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 08:19:47 PM
 #34

My only problem with the article and the comparison is that a house, real estate, has intrinsic value.

What gives a BitShare intrinsic value that makes it valuable collateral for creating bitUSD from?

What gives bitcoin  intrinsic value ?

Nothing?

The idea I cannot go away (at least not that easily) like gold.
TaunSew
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 756
Merit: 506


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 08:23:25 PM
 #35

My only problem with the article and the comparison is that a house, real estate, has intrinsic value.

What gives a BitShare intrinsic value that makes it valuable collateral for creating bitUSD from?

What gives bitcoin  intrinsic value ?

Nothing?

The idea I cannot go away (at least not that easily) like gold.

What intrinsic value does a stock give me?  At least decades ago it used to be all paper and you could burn the paper for heat or worse case scenario consume it if there was no food nearby. 

After all do you know what paper money actually is?  It is Federal Reserve exchange notes, not much different in principle from a lot of stocks out there (especially those that don't issue dividend).


That's a rhetorical answer of course.  Most of the things in our society are technically ponzi schemes based on the scarcity principle.  

There ain't no Revolution like a NEMolution.  The only solution is Bitcoin's dissolution! NEM!
FandangledGizmo
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1139
Merit: 1001


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 08:30:01 PM
 #36

My only problem with the article and the comparison is that a house, real estate, has intrinsic value.

What gives a BitShare intrinsic value that makes it valuable collateral for creating bitUSD from?

What gives bitcoin  intrinsic value ?

Yeah, I can always be wrong on technical descriptions but I think it goes like this.

Bitcoin doesn't have a system for implementing something like BitAssets.
But it's essentially similar to someone with Bitcoin, saying 'this is too volatile' or 'I'd rather hold some of my Bitcoin in an anothe asset that stores and tracks the value of gold.' Unfortunately there hasn't been a decentralised way to do that till now.

At it's simplest level you find a person who wants to short that asset relative to Bitcoin and they lock up some Bitcoin to provide collateral if the market moves against them. Then their collateral is used to cover the trade if it moves against them and vice versa. By doing it as a market when more collateral is needed whenever a new trade is done it backs the asset at any price.

So there's no fractional reserve as claimed by OP. The reserves for the trade are there and so much in fact that BitUSD can never make up more than 30% of the system because of the reserves required to back it.

So it's just an amazing way to store the value of assets in a decentralised way that's never been possible before. It's pretty game changing in countries where capital controls are in place or there are foreign currency restrictions.

So the anonymity, speed & value of BitAssets is huge in a place like China, hence the excitement and interest.
But Argentina and other places like it will probably go crazy for BitAssets too if the system works well.

It's probably being turned on, on Monday. So investing now, means you'll believe it will work. So you should study it more before you invest imo.



zorco
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 22
Merit: 0


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 08:33:19 PM
 #37

My only problem with the article and the comparison is that a house, real estate, has intrinsic value.

What gives a BitShare intrinsic value that makes it valuable collateral for creating bitUSD from?

What gives bitcoin  intrinsic value ?

Nothing?
lol well for this "nothing" people are paying 500$ a piece.  The  intrinsic value is Block chain technology and what you can do with it.
TaunSew
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 756
Merit: 506


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 08:36:23 PM
 #38

It's not a question of IF something will work (something broken is a problem, though).

It's a question of IF something brings utility to the mass market and if the mass market is utilizing this service.  The NXT asset exchange as far as I can tell works extremely well.  Much like BitSharesX's bitassets may work.  The reality is asset trading just doesn't appeal to the plurality.  It's also reinventing the wheel as if I really wanted to trade $USD then I would use real exchanges and not a crypto.

Main reason people went into cryptos was to escape the inflation of the $Fiat. Why do I need to deal with assets and other gimmicks when they already work pretty well themselves in the real world?


It's also a question of IF something is proprietary.  The first mover advantage is great but what stops NXT from doing their own collateral or pegging system or a near-equivalent thereof?  



There ain't no Revolution like a NEMolution.  The only solution is Bitcoin's dissolution! NEM!
PilotofBTC
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1736
Merit: 1001


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 08:41:14 PM
 #39

My only problem with the article and the comparison is that a house, real estate, has intrinsic value.

What gives a BitShare intrinsic value that makes it valuable collateral for creating bitUSD from?

What gives bitcoin  intrinsic value ?

Nothing?
lol well for this "nothing" people are paying 500$ a piece.  The  intrinsic value is Block chain technology and what you can do with it.

I didn't say BTC didn't have a "value". Just not an intrinsic value.

If you asked my what intrinsic value the USD has, I would probably say, nothing is well. It only has a value because people accept that value. At least Gold has,

1. Scarcity
2. PoW - it takes real time and production to mine gold
3. Intrinsic value, it can be used for things other than as a Fiat Currency. ie, gold is used in manufacturing, etc.

Fiat has 1.

Crypto Coins have 1 and 2.

Gold, silver, diamonds, etc have 1, 2 and 3.
merockstar
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 203
Merit: 100

BTS: merockstar420


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 08:45:02 PM
 #40

The delegates are not the federal reserve of bitUSD.

The federal reserve is.

A bitUSD is going to track the value of a dollar, therefore it depends on how many dollars the fed prints.

It's purpose? USD with all the properties of a currency on the blockchain!

how long will it be useful? that depends on how long you think USD will be useful.

same for other fiat currencies.

after USD has outlived it's usefulness? BitShares and other cryptos will still be there.

until then?

I think it should be obvious. Businesses can now accept and save a cryptocurrency that carries the stability of the dollar they so dearly value, without having to trust a bank. All the good of Bitcoin, none of the risk until the market cap of Bitcoin, BitShares, Peercoin, or whatever is high enough that the price is stable enough to preclude risk without having to use bitFIAT.
zorco
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 22
Merit: 0


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 08:45:24 PM
 #41


The first mover advantage is great but what stops NXT from doing their own collateral or pegging system or a near-equivalent thereof?  


Nobody it stopping them hope they gonna do it !! Nobody stopped people copying  bitcoin either.



It's a question of IF something brings utility to the mass market and if the mass market is utilizing this service

The utility is here : "it's just an amazing way to store the value of assets in a decentralised way that's never been possible before!"

Truth will see how the mass market reacts.
CoinHoarder
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1456
Merit: 1025

In Cryptocoins I Trust


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 08:49:53 PM
 #42

It's not a question of IF something will work (something broken is a problem, though).

It's a question of IF something brings utility to the mass market and if the mass market is utilizing this service.  The NXT asset exchange as far as I can tell works extremely well.  Much like BitSharesX's bitassets may work.  The reality is asset trading just doesn't appeal to the plurality.  It's also reinventing the wheel as if I really wanted to trade $USD then I would use real exchanges and not a crypto.

Main reason people went into cryptos was to escape the inflation of the $Fiat. Why do I need to deal with assets and other gimmicks when they already work pretty well themselves in the real world?


It's also a question of IF something is proprietary.  The first mover advantage is great but what stops NXT from doing their own collateral or pegging system or a near-equivalent thereof?  

I'm not sure how many times people have to tell you this, but the Nxt asset exchange is not the same thing as Bitshare's bitassets....... they are two completely different concepts. It seems like you still don't understand what bitassets are.

Quote
It's also reinventing the wheel as if I really wanted to trade $USD then I would use real exchanges and not a crypto.

It is nothing like reinventing the wheel...

Centralized exchanges suffer from many vulnerabilities/risks/inconveniences including risk of government asset seizure, losing funds due to being hacked, volume and price manipulation, going insolvent due to bad business practices or running ponzi-like schemes, complicated know your customer requirements (it can be hard or take a long time to get "verified"), Etcetra. (I'm sure I'm forgetting something.)

Technically, a decentralized version would suffer from none of these problems.
PilotofBTC
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1736
Merit: 1001


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 08:53:28 PM
 #43

So is the 2x BTSX that you need to borrow bitUSD based on the USD price of BTSX or the units?

If BTSX is trading at $.50 each, then I need 4 BTSX to borrow 1 bitUSD?

So, the whole bitshares concept could have been done on the NXT blockchain using NXT as the store of value and creating a bitUSD asset. (I assume they didn't cause the devs could create BTSX's for free.)

I wonder too, how close this is to the NXT monetary system. It sounds very similar to me.
TaunSew
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 756
Merit: 506


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 08:57:59 PM
 #44

It's not a question of IF something will work (something broken is a problem, though).

It's a question of IF something brings utility to the mass market and if the mass market is utilizing this service.  The NXT asset exchange as far as I can tell works extremely well.  Much like BitSharesX's bitassets may work.  The reality is asset trading just doesn't appeal to the plurality.  It's also reinventing the wheel as if I really wanted to trade $USD then I would use real exchanges and not a crypto.

Main reason people went into cryptos was to escape the inflation of the $Fiat. Why do I need to deal with assets and other gimmicks when they already work pretty well themselves in the real world?


It's also a question of IF something is proprietary.  The first mover advantage is great but what stops NXT from doing their own collateral or pegging system or a near-equivalent thereof?  

I'm not sure how many times people have to tell you this, but the Nxt asset exchange is not the same thing as Bitshare's bitassets....... they are two completely different concepts. It seems like you still don't understand what bitassets are.

Still going on with that rhetorical dribble, huh?

How about instead of you pushing the burden on proof on me, due to bitassets which isn't released until monday, how about you present the evidence that it's "completely different concepts" without posting a link full of rhetorical bullchit?  We'll know on monday when your 'evidence' doesn't consist of rhetoric and rainbows.


bitassets are assets, end of story.  If your only difference is a collateral and pegging system then that can patched into any asset system.  Sure it may not be the exact 100% same as bitassets but the regular user wouldn't know and if they did wouldn't care.  Not everyone wants a centralized bank like BitShares.

There ain't no Revolution like a NEMolution.  The only solution is Bitcoin's dissolution! NEM!
CoinHoarder
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1456
Merit: 1025

In Cryptocoins I Trust


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 09:00:00 PM
 #45

So is the 2x BTSX that you need to borrow bitUSD based on the USD price of BTSX or the units?

If BTSX is trading at $.50 each, then I need 4 BTSX to borrow 1 bitUSD?

So, the whole bitshares concept could have been done on the NXT blockchain using NXT as the store of value and creating a bitUSD asset. (I assume they didn't cause the devs could create BTSX's for free.)

I wonder too, how close this is to the NXT monetary system. It sounds very similar to me.

There is nothing stopping Nxt from implementing something similar to bitassets. I think that first mover advantage is important though and BitsharesX has them beat there. Look at how far Bitcoin's first mover advantage has got them, I think we can all agree there are many more technically advanced crypto currencies with more features and improvements over it, yet it is still the king of crypto currencies.
merockstar
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 203
Merit: 100

BTS: merockstar420


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 09:00:57 PM
 #46

It's not a question of IF something will work (something broken is a problem, though).

It's a question of IF something brings utility to the mass market and if the mass market is utilizing this service.  The NXT asset exchange as far as I can tell works extremely well.  Much like BitSharesX's bitassets may work.  The reality is asset trading just doesn't appeal to the plurality.  It's also reinventing the wheel as if I really wanted to trade $USD then I would use real exchanges and not a crypto.

Main reason people went into cryptos was to escape the inflation of the $Fiat. Why do I need to deal with assets and other gimmicks when they already work pretty well themselves in the real world?


It's also a question of IF something is proprietary.  The first mover advantage is great but what stops NXT from doing their own collateral or pegging system or a near-equivalent thereof?  

I'm not sure how many times people have to tell you this, but the Nxt asset exchange is not the same thing as Bitshare's bitassets....... they are two completely different concepts. It seems like you still don't understand what bitassets are.

Still going on with that rhetorical dribble, huh?

How about instead of you pushing the burden on proof on me, due to bitassets which isn't released until monday, how about you present the evidence that it's "completely different concepts" without posting a link full of rhetorical bullchit?  We'll know on monday when your 'evidence' doesn't consist of rhetoric and rainbows.


bitassets are assets, end of story.  If your only difference is a collateral and pegging system then that can patched into any asset system.  Sure it may not be the exact 100% same as bitassets but the regular user wouldn't know.   Nowhere was it written that the NXT asset exchange was the final version.

sure you can patch it into nxt.
not sure why they haven't yet?

but even if you do that, nxt still isn't reaping the benefits of DPOS.
CoinHoarder
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1456
Merit: 1025

In Cryptocoins I Trust


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 09:03:57 PM
 #47

It's not a question of IF something will work (something broken is a problem, though).

It's a question of IF something brings utility to the mass market and if the mass market is utilizing this service.  The NXT asset exchange as far as I can tell works extremely well.  Much like BitSharesX's bitassets may work.  The reality is asset trading just doesn't appeal to the plurality.  It's also reinventing the wheel as if I really wanted to trade $USD then I would use real exchanges and not a crypto.

Main reason people went into cryptos was to escape the inflation of the $Fiat. Why do I need to deal with assets and other gimmicks when they already work pretty well themselves in the real world?


It's also a question of IF something is proprietary.  The first mover advantage is great but what stops NXT from doing their own collateral or pegging system or a near-equivalent thereof?  

I'm not sure how many times people have to tell you this, but the Nxt asset exchange is not the same thing as Bitshare's bitassets....... they are two completely different concepts. It seems like you still don't understand what bitassets are.

Still going on with that rhetorical dribble, huh?

How about instead of you pushing the burden on proof on me, due to bitassets which isn't released until monday, how about you present the evidence that it's "completely different concepts" without posting a link full of rhetorical bullchit?  We'll know on monday when your 'evidence' doesn't consist of rhetoric and rainbows.


bitassets are assets, end of story.  If your only difference is a collateral and pegging system then that can patched into any asset system.  Sure it may not be the exact 100% same as bitassets but the regular user wouldn't know.   Nowhere was it written that the NXT asset exchange was the final version.

Nxt's asset exchange, as it is currently implemented, relies on trust. Sure, I could create a "NxtUSD" asset on your exchange, but people would need to trust that I am holding the correct amount of collateral and not embezzling and/or using the collateral in improper ways. Bitshares version is decentralized and trustless since it's done on the free market.

You are right, you guys could implement something like bitassets. Why don't you guys go do it instead of hating on a good idea that is needed?
TaunSew
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 756
Merit: 506


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 09:08:01 PM
 #48

I don't think DPOS really matters (no one cared about it weeks ago).  I read it and didn't appeal to me as I think there are vulnerabilities to it (you can say it is a safer system than NXT but I think the delegate system can be gamed a lot easier than spending millions of $Fiat to acquire 51%+ of NXT.  There isn't even enough NXT for sale.  You'ld probably have to jack up prices at least ten fold to get people to sell and nobody is going to spend $10s of $100s of millions to buy out a newer crypto).



 All the rhetoric and controversy was largely instigated by BTSx who came in with bitasset and are trashing NXT only days after it was "hacked" on a Chinese exchange.  Not implying anything but stranger things have happened.

My concern is something that is being pumped with $millions of $Fiat when it hasn't even been released or tried by the mass crypto-public yet.  We can't even use bitassets yet and yet people are plying on stupid money (unless it's fake volume).

There ain't no Revolution like a NEMolution.  The only solution is Bitcoin's dissolution! NEM!
chanc3r
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 952
Merit: 253



View Profile
August 22, 2014, 09:13:10 PM
 #49

So is the 2x BTSX that you need to borrow bitUSD based on the USD price of BTSX or the units?

If BTSX is trading at $.50 each, then I need 4 BTSX to borrow 1 bitUSD?

So, the whole bitshares concept could have been done on the NXT blockchain using NXT as the store of value and creating a bitUSD asset. (I assume they didn't cause the devs could create BTSX's for free.)

I wonder too, how close this is to the NXT monetary system. It sounds very similar to me.

There is nothing stopping Nxt from implementing something similar to bitassets. I think that first mover advantage is important though and BitsharesX has them beat there. Look at how far Bitcoin's first mover advantage has got them, I think we can all agree there are many more technically advanced crypto currencies with more features and improvements over it, yet it is still the king of crypto currencies.

I've seen at least one currency pegged asset so far - this one...

USDbitfnx - Each 1 USDbitfnx asset represents 1 USD deposited at bitfinex.com.
I this case an asset is only put into circulation if there is a real dollar supporting it.. The purpose of this asset is not to provide a dollar equivalent but this or something like it issued on NXT or another Crypto with an asset exchange would achieve a traceable crypto token with a with real $$$ backing the token.

Am I right in understanding that with BTS is there is no guarantee that you can redeem 1 BTSX for 1 USD because you do not need to deposit a USD somewhere to create a BTS in the first place?

TaunSew
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 756
Merit: 506


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 09:14:02 PM
 #50

It's not a question of IF something will work (something broken is a problem, though).

It's a question of IF something brings utility to the mass market and if the mass market is utilizing this service.  The NXT asset exchange as far as I can tell works extremely well.  Much like BitSharesX's bitassets may work.  The reality is asset trading just doesn't appeal to the plurality.  It's also reinventing the wheel as if I really wanted to trade $USD then I would use real exchanges and not a crypto.



If the bitAssets work and bitUSD is pegged to the dollar value of BTSX, then it becomes a game changer. For stocks, commodities, assets, and transfers.

Stocks and commodities will be able to retain their real world dollar value, all while trading on a non-governmental/Wall St. controlled environment.

Yeah but this just the same pegging / collateral system you've (well BTSx people) mentioned a dozen or so times.  It doesn't stop assets from failing or being scams.

It also wouldn't fly on my tax income or depositing into the bank.  "So uhh where did this $7 million come from" "from trading bitUSD and bitMicrosoftstock"

There ain't no Revolution like a NEMolution.  The only solution is Bitcoin's dissolution! NEM!
ChuckOne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 09:14:29 PM
 #51

but even if you do that, nxt still isn't reaping the benefits of DPOS.

DPoS and TF + Leasing are basically the same. We discusses this issue in length here and somewhere else.

Trust me on that matter, I am technical guy. Besides social implications, that is all that matters to me.
ChuckOne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 09:15:22 PM
 #52

Am I right in understanding that with BTS is there is no guarantee that you can redeem 1 BTSX for 1 USD because you do not need to deposit a USD somewhere to create a BTS in the first place?

But is that not the very definition of pegging?
CoinHoarder
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1456
Merit: 1025

In Cryptocoins I Trust


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 09:16:16 PM
 #53

So is the 2x BTSX that you need to borrow bitUSD based on the USD price of BTSX or the units?

If BTSX is trading at $.50 each, then I need 4 BTSX to borrow 1 bitUSD?

So, the whole bitshares concept could have been done on the NXT blockchain using NXT as the store of value and creating a bitUSD asset. (I assume they didn't cause the devs could create BTSX's for free.)

I wonder too, how close this is to the NXT monetary system. It sounds very similar to me.

There is nothing stopping Nxt from implementing something similar to bitassets. I think that first mover advantage is important though and BitsharesX has them beat there. Look at how far Bitcoin's first mover advantage has got them, I think we can all agree there are many more technically advanced crypto currencies with more features and improvements over it, yet it is still the king of crypto currencies.

I've seen at least one currency pegged asset so far - this one...

USDbitfnx - Each 1 USDbitfnx asset represents 1 USD deposited at bitfinex.com.
I this case an asset is only put into circulation if there is a real dollar supporting it.. The purpose of this asset is not to provide a dollar equivalent but this or something like it issued on NXT or another Crypto with an asset exchange would achieve a traceable crypto token with a with real $$$ backing the token.

You need to trust bitfinex that they hold the correct amount of collateral and don't do any funny business, so it is completely different from bitassets.
zorco
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 22
Merit: 0


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 09:24:48 PM
 #54


So, the whole bitshares concept could have been done on the NXT blockchain using NXT as the store of value and creating a bitUSD asset. (I assume they didn't cause the devs could create BTSX's for free.)


Probably but there are a lot of differences still, Bitshare use DPOS you have a transaction speed of 10 sec. You have the delegates,you have dividends that are payde to shareholders  etc.  

"the hole bitshare concept" - Bitshare X is the first DAC  the first of many to come that are using  bitshare toolkit : Bitshare Dns, Bitshare Music, Bitshare Play, follow my Vote etc. My point is Bitshare concept is much more then Bitshare X so there are more differences that you can see at first glance.
CoinHoarder
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1456
Merit: 1025

In Cryptocoins I Trust


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 09:29:54 PM
 #55

So is the 2x BTSX that you need to borrow bitUSD based on the USD price of BTSX or the units?

If BTSX is trading at $.50 each, then I need 4 BTSX to borrow 1 bitUSD?
It is based off of the price of BitsharesX relative to the US dollar, as determined by the free market.

You would only need 1 BTSX in the case of BTSX being worth $0.50, as only 2x collateral is needed (I think) if you wanted to borrow 1 bitUSD. If BTSX falls in price and your collateral can no longer cover your 1bitUSD, then your position is released and you lose your collateral proportional to the amount collateral that is required to cover your position.

Am I right in understanding that with BTS is there is no guarantee that you can redeem 1 BTSX for 1 USD because you do not need to deposit a USD somewhere to create a BTS in the first place?
It is determined by consensus on the free market, by some people going long and some people going short on a specific asset. There is no guarantee, but short of manipulation or some flaw, there is no need for a guarantee. The free market will always even out to the true value of the USD as soon as a large amount of orders are placed on both sides, proper volume is established, and skepticism dies down that bitassets will not work for some reason. Because of those reasons, bitUSD will likely be worth less than US dollar until "market equilibrium" (or consensus) is reached. I expect this to happen eventually, but on the release and in the immediate future after the release, bitUSD will likely be worth less than a real US dollar. That is speculation though...
PilotofBTC
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1736
Merit: 1001


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 09:35:38 PM
 #56

Am I right in understanding that with BTS is there is no guarantee that you can redeem 1 BTSX for 1 USD because you do not need to deposit a USD somewhere to create a BTS in the first place?

But is that not the very definition of pegging?

I don't think so, there is a difference between pegging the value of something to something else, and saying that it is back by that other thing.

I think the Yuan is pegged to the US$.

Generally, to peg the value to the dollar they would have to buy and sell bitUSD to keep it at a value of $1. That means there is a central bank and the value of bitUSD is being manipulated, right?
ChuckOne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 09:40:10 PM
 #57

I don't think so, there is a difference between pegging the value of something to something else, and saying that it is back by that other thing.

I think the Yuan is pegged to the US$.

Okay, I see.

Generally, to peg the value to the dollar they would have to buy and sell bitUSD to keep it at a value of $1. That means there is a central bank and the value of bitUSD is being manipulated, right?

I have no idea.
Tradingriver
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 150
Merit: 100


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 09:41:31 PM
 #58

you cannot "create" and "promise" to deliver a bitAsset

a bitAsset is only created if 2 people (a buyer and a seller) are trading this asset class. this is the major differencel. It seems you don't get this.

it function like a future market. it is a trustless contract backed with BTSX. This is the reason why it will function.

you are selling bitUSD and i buy it from you. only now the bitAssets are created and backed from your collateral and my collateral.

someone will loose in this trade. its the same function any future exchange on the planet will give you, just without trust and 3 party.....

a trade in bitAsset is like "i will sell you in the future my wheat for price x". But not for the future just now.


sry - you should just take a piece BTSX and watch. if its fails ok, if its works - great. why hate a project you are not involved? maybe you are concerned about your only NXT invest.
chanc3r
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 952
Merit: 253



View Profile
August 22, 2014, 09:55:25 PM
 #59


sry - you should just take a piece BTSX and watch. if its fails ok, if its works - great. why hate a project you are not involved? maybe you are concerned about your only NXT invest.

I won't 'take a piece' of anything I don't understand...
And why is it that anyone asking questions about BTSX is being accused of protecting their NXT investment..
Many hold NXT but would be foolish to hold only NXT so many hold other investment also...
Many would be foolish to only invest in crypto and so also hold other FIAT based investments and assets.

If you meet everyone just trying to understand with such accusations then your community will not grow.

instacalm
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 798
Merit: 500



View Profile
August 22, 2014, 10:00:37 PM
 #60

I won't 'take a piece' of anything I don't understand...
And why is it that anyone asking questions about BTSX is being accused of protecting their NXT investment..
Many hold NXT but would be foolish to hold only NXT so many hold other investment also...
Many would be foolish to only invest in crypto and so also hold other FIAT based investments and assets.

If you meet everyone just trying to understand with such accusations then your community will not grow.

The problem here is that this thread is attacking BTS(X) based on massive lack of understanding, claiming BitShares would aim at "mirroring the FED", rambling about fractional reserve lending etc. I've been with NXT since December '13 but this is nothing short of embarrassment. As far as I see there were no accusations or attacks coming from the BitShares community initially as this was clearly initiated by a few community members of NXT.

Gladly voices such as CfB's still do exist:
U, guys, waste ur time here attacking our allies instead of fighting against bankers. The fact that attacks became much intense after Bitshares had outpaced Nxt on CoinMarketCap makes me to think that u r in Nxt just to make more fiat. This makes me very upset...
CoinHoarder
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1456
Merit: 1025

In Cryptocoins I Trust


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 10:06:32 PM
 #61

Am I right in understanding that with BTS is there is no guarantee that you can redeem 1 BTSX for 1 USD because you do not need to deposit a USD somewhere to create a BTS in the first place?

But is that not the very definition of pegging?

I don't think so, there is a difference between pegging the value of something to something else, and saying that it is back by that other thing.

Exactly. That is bitassets versus the Nxt asset exchange (as it exists today).

Generally, to peg the value to the dollar they would have to buy and sell bitUSD to keep it at a value of $1. That means there is a central bank and the value of bitUSD is being manipulated, right?

BitUSD can be manipulated in the same way anything traded on the free market can be manipulated (Bitcoin, stocks, Etcetra.) In Bitcoin's case, there is financial incentive for people to trade against manipulation due to things like arbitrage or perceived value by the public for instance. With bitUSD, the incentive for people to trade against manipulation is that they will likely make a profit on it by going long or short against the manipulative trader(s).

If a bad actor tries to manipulate BitUSD by dumping on the bitUSD market below the value of the actual value of the dollar, then there is an economic incentive for someone to scoop up those cheap bitUSDs. They will likely profit from the inevitable price swing that will incur when the honest actors come in and bring the bitUSD market back it equilibrium with the actual value of the US dollar. The opposite incentive is there if someone tries to pump the value of bitUSD greater than the actual value of a dollar.

As soon as market depth is established, a certain amount of volume is achieved, and skepticism bitassets will work dies down, bitUSD should very closely resemble the value of the US dollar.
FandangledGizmo
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1139
Merit: 1001


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 10:10:38 PM
 #62

If you meet everyone just trying to understand with such accusations then your community will not grow.

The problem here is that this thread is attacking BTSX based on massive lack of understanding, claiming BitShares would aim at "mirroring the FED", rambling about fractional reserve lending etc. I've been with NXT since December '13 but this is nothing short of embarrassment. As far as I see there were no accusations or attacks coming from the BitShares community as this was clearly initiated by ChuckOne.

I think questions and due diligence are a good thing, but yeah the provocative thread title, picture and baseless content by someone with some standing in NXT is quite embarrassing.

I used to hold a lot of NXT and still thinks it's quite good. I've sold recently as there has been very limited demand since the bter hack, which wasn't their fault at all. I won't let a couple of bad apples change my opinion of NXT though and may buy back a little stake at a later stage depending.
ChuckOne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 10:13:43 PM
 #63

If a bad actor tries to manipulate the BitUSD market by dumping on the bitUSD market way below the value of the actual value of the dollar. Then there is an economic incentive for someone to scoop up those cheap bitUSDs, and profit from the inevitable price swing that will incur when the honest actors come in and bring the bitUSD market back it equilibrium with the actual value of the US dollar. The opposite incentive is there if someone tries to pump the value of bitUSD greater than the actual value of a dollar.

As soon as market depth is established, a certain amount of volume is achieved, and skepticism bitassets will work dies down, bitUSD should very closely resemble the value of the US dollar.

Now, I think I understand a bit.

But that raises the next question: why should a bad actor act bad? I assume because he gains something from it, right?

If so, why do honest actors do not act bad? What is their gain?
chanc3r
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 952
Merit: 253



View Profile
August 22, 2014, 10:16:05 PM
 #64

If you meet everyone just trying to understand with such accusations then your community will not grow.

The problem here is that this thread is attacking BTSX based on massive lack of understanding, claiming BitShares would aim at "mirroring the FED" etc. I've been with NXT since December '13 but this is nothing short of embarrassment. As far as I see there were no accusations or attacks coming from the BitShares community as this was clearly initiated by ChuckOne.
Maybe I see questioning differently - I don't see this as embarrassing and as threads go this one is actually asking questions not just making accusations.

I see this as useful in understanding and I agree the questions could be asked more considerately but these forums are often short on that.

There are not just nxtTers in this thread,although as you point out one started it and in fact the discussion on nxtForum has been more considered.

It is also becoming clear that BTSX is just one implementation from the toolkit so its not BitShares that is being questioned but this specific implementation of pegging to the USD as I understand it.

This kind of discussion brings visibility and with visibility people will do their research not just on these posts but read some of the excellent material at the end of the bitShares links and make up their own mind - so I believe its always best to welcome these debates if you want something to be explored and through that process gain acceptance.

There is plenty of room for more innovative platforms that are not simply carbon copies of BTC and there is no need for either community to attack the other...

instacalm
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 798
Merit: 500



View Profile
August 22, 2014, 10:18:11 PM
Last edit: August 23, 2014, 04:18:30 AM by instacash
 #65

I think questions and due diligence are a good thing, but yeah the provocative thread title, picture and baseless content by someone with some standing in NXT is quite embarrassing.
+1

I used to hold a lot of NXT and still thinks it's quite good. I've sold recently as there has been very limited demand since the bter hack, which wasn't their fault at all. I won't let a couple of rotten apples change my opinion of NXT though and may buy back a little stake at a later stage depending.

I can only agree with you. I hold some and sold some. NXT indeed is a great project, as is BitShares, and attacks such as these are extremely superfluous. If anything, one, as a rational being interested in this field of technology, ought to be enthusiastic to learn more about the concepts behind the very projects that shape this field instead of spreading counterproductive negativity, attacking and name-calling...
ChuckOne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 10:22:54 PM
 #66

If a bad actor tries to manipulate the BitUSD market by dumping on the bitUSD market way below the value of the actual value of the dollar. Then there is an economic incentive for someone to scoop up those cheap bitUSDs, and profit from the inevitable price swing that will incur when the honest actors come in and bring the bitUSD market back it equilibrium with the actual value of the US dollar. The opposite incentive is there if someone tries to pump the value of bitUSD greater than the actual value of a dollar.

As soon as market depth is established, a certain amount of volume is achieved, and skepticism bitassets will work dies down, bitUSD should very closely resemble the value of the US dollar.

Now, I think I understand a bit.

But that raises the next question: why should a bad actor act bad? I assume because he gains something from it, right?

If so, why do honest actors do not act bad? What is their gain?
Tradingriver
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 150
Merit: 100


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 10:24:24 PM
 #67

in any market you cannot prevent manipulation!

look at the huge Gold market. the big banks manipulated the price for years, so in the small coin markets (a total market cap of 6.8 billion USD) is manipulation really cheap. the nice point in blockchain technology - we will hopefully see this kind of manipulation much earlier.

i am really happy about this kind of threads, because the only lacking point in BTSX is the "none" existence in forums like bitcointalk.org . we are lacking in marketing so i take this as an opportunity to get some people interested in BTSX.
ChuckOne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 10:26:30 PM
 #68

source https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/bitshares-the-great-satan-on-the-blockchain/msg89646/#msg89646

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=752258.msg8492118#msg8492118
Quote
The problem here is that this thread is attacking BTSX based on massive lack of understanding, claiming BitShares would aim at "mirroring the FED" etc. I've been with NXT since December '13 but this is nothing short of embarrassment. As far as I see there were no accusations or attacks coming from the BitShares community as this was clearly initiated by ChuckOne.

It was initiated by 2Kool4Skewl.

Seriously, I'm not the only one that thinks BitShares is "mirroring" the Federal Reserve.  Even their own users believe they are "investing in the Fed in 1920."

They are like a mini-Fed and their delegates are like mini-FOMC members.

In order to clear that up.
ChuckOne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 10:30:36 PM
 #69

in any market you cannot prevent manipulation!

look at the huge Gold market. the big banks manipulated the price for years, so in the small coin markets (a total market cap of 6.8 billion USD) is manipulation really cheap. the nice point in blockchain technology - we will hopefully see this kind of manipulation much earlier.

I think that thread is not about manipulation but understand how this pegging is supposed to work (at least for me).

2Kool4Skewl is further interested in the issue of delegates being like mini-FOMC members of a mini-FED. I personally have no real imagination about those concepts but I would be good for me and others to know before investing, do you not think so?

i am really happy about this kind of threads, because the only lacking point in BTSX is the "none" existence in forums like bitcointalk.org . we are lacking in marketing so i take this as an opportunity to get some people interested in BTSX.

Ah, you, too? Wink
CoinHoarder
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1456
Merit: 1025

In Cryptocoins I Trust


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 10:34:45 PM
 #70

If a bad actor tries to manipulate the BitUSD market by dumping on the bitUSD market way below the value of the actual value of the dollar. Then there is an economic incentive for someone to scoop up those cheap bitUSDs, and profit from the inevitable price swing that will incur when the honest actors come in and bring the bitUSD market back it equilibrium with the actual value of the US dollar. The opposite incentive is there if someone tries to pump the value of bitUSD greater than the actual value of a dollar.

As soon as market depth is established, a certain amount of volume is achieved, and skepticism bitassets will work dies down, bitUSD should very closely resemble the value of the US dollar.

Now, I think I understand a bit.

But that raises the next question: why should a bad actor act bad? I assume because he gains something from it, right?

If so, why do honest actors do not act bad? What is their gain?

It works much the same that it does in any free market. Manipulators are taking a risk by manipulating the market. The manipulators are taking a risk that the public recognizes the manipulation and the market immediately corrects, causing the manipulator to lose a considerable amount of money. If they do not recognize this manipulation and see it as a normal market movement, then they stand to profit from it.

You question as to what would someone stand to gain from manipulating the bitUSD market is exactly why I think bitassets will work, because there is really no incentive at all. Unlike Bitcoin being traded in the free market, people can easily look up exactly what the value of the US dollar (or Btcoin, gold, etcetra) is relative to BitsharesX by comparing the current market value of the BitsharesX/USD (or BitsharesX/BTC/USD) trading pairs on other exchanges. It will be much easier to detect manipulation of a bitasset when you know almost exactly what that asset is worth in the real world markets from thing like data aggregators and market feeds which are sourced directly from those markets.

You cannot prevent manipulation in the gold, Bitcoin, Or FIAT markets, but the fact it will be so easy to tell if bitassets do not equal the current value of a real world commodity is the reason why I think it is unlikely to be manipulated. Manipulation will likely be very unprofitable in bitassets due to the obvious value of the commodities traded which people can get from many 3rd party services and data feeds which come directly from those markets. Therefore, bitassets will closely resemble the value of their real world counterparts.
PilotofBTC
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1736
Merit: 1001


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 10:38:35 PM
 #71

Am I right in understanding that with BTS is there is no guarantee that you can redeem 1 BTSX for 1 USD because you do not need to deposit a USD somewhere to create a BTS in the first place?

But is that not the very definition of pegging?

I don't think so, there is a difference between pegging the value of something to something else, and saying that it is back by that other thing.

Exactly. That is bitassets versus the Nxt asset exchange (as it exists today).

Generally, to peg the value to the dollar they would have to buy and sell bitUSD to keep it at a value of $1. That means there is a central bank and the value of bitUSD is being manipulated, right?

BitUSD can be manipulated in the same way anything traded on the free market can be manipulated (Bitcoin, stocks, Etcetra.) In Bitcoin's case, there is financial incentive for people to trade against manipulation due to things like arbitrage or perceived value by the public for instance. With bitUSD, the incentive for people to trade against manipulation is that they will likely make a profit on it by going long or short against the manipulative trader(s).

If a bad actor tries to manipulate BitUSD by dumping on the bitUSD market below the value of the actual value of the dollar, then there is an economic incentive for someone to scoop up those cheap bitUSDs. They will likely profit from the inevitable price swing that will incur when the honest actors come in and bring the bitUSD market back it equilibrium with the actual value of the US dollar. The opposite incentive is there if someone tries to pump the value of bitUSD greater than the actual value of a dollar.

As soon as market depth is established, a certain amount of volume is achieved, and skepticism bitassets will work dies down, bitUSD should very closely resemble the value of the US dollar.

BTW: I am not attacking, just asking question and trying to understand.

So, you are saying that bitUSD is only pegged to the dollar by the market rather than by some central entity like Bitshares corp or whatever. If the expectation is that the market will keep the value of bitUSD equivalent to the $ I can't see how that will happen. The Chinese government and bank is what keeps the Yuan pegged to the $, not the market.
ChuckOne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 10:46:15 PM
 #72

It works much the same that it does in any free market. Manipulators are taking a risk by manipulating the market. The manipulators are taking a risk that the public recognizes the manipulation and the market immediately corrects, causing the manipulator to lose a considerable amount of money. If they do not recognize this manipulation and see it as a normal market movement, then they stand to profit from it.

You question as to what would someone stand to gain from manipulating the bitUSD market is exactly why I think bitassets will work, because there is really no incentive at all. Unlike Bitcoin being traded in the free market, people can easily look up exactly what the value of the US dollar (or Btcoin, gold, etcetra) is relative to BitsharesX by comparing the current market value of the BitsharesX/USD (or BitsharesX/BTC/USD) trading pairs on other exchanges. It will be much easier to detect manipulation of a bitasset when you know almost exactly what that asset is worth in the real world markets from thing like data aggregators and market feeds.

You cannot prevent manipulation in the gold, Bitcoin, Or FIAT markets, but the fact it will be so easy to tell if bitassets do not equal the current value of a real world commodity is the reason why I think it is unlikely to be manipulated. Manipulation will likely be very unprofitable in bitassets due to the obvious value of the commodities traded which people can get from many 3rd party services and data feeds which come directly from those markets. Therefore, bitassets will closely resemble the value of their real world counterparts.

Ah, wait. You are talking about manipulation... Let me get this straight:

1) bitUSD is pegged to the USD basically means that traders are encouraged to trade bitUSDs according to the prices of real-world goods and services in USD

2) corrections are done by: traders simply agree on how much a bitUSD should be worth by looking at the prices of those real-world goods and services in USD

3) therefore, speculators speculating on higher or lower prices of bitUSD are not able to bring down or up the price BECAUSE the honest majority of the traders simply agreed on a fixed price

=> there will be huge sell and buy wall right below and right above the agreed upon price

Is that correct?
ChuckOne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 10:50:01 PM
 #73

If not 100% correct, is it at least a starting point to understand how trader-pegging should work?
CoinHoarder
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1456
Merit: 1025

In Cryptocoins I Trust


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 10:54:53 PM
 #74

BTW: I am not attacking, just asking question and trying to understand.

So, you are saying that bitUSD is only pegged to the dollar by the market rather than by some central entity like Bitshares corp or whatever. If the expectation is that the market will keep the value of bitUSD equivalent to the $ I can't see how that will happen. The Chinese government and bank is what keeps the Yuan pegged to the $, not the market.

No problem, this is new territory for most of us, we are all learning. I am not sure I understand it fully myself, but I think I have a pretty good idea of how it works. Anyone feel free to jump in and correct me if I am wrong about something.

Exactly, bitUSD is pegged to the US dollar by the market. The expectation certainly is that it will very closely resemble the value of the US dollar. bitUSD will closely resemble the value of the US dollar because people will be able to easily profit from it if it doesn't. The incentive for people to go long or short if someone is trying to manipulate the market will keep it in check. People like money, even more so, they like to make easy money. It will be very easy to see if someone is manipulating bitUSD and someone can come in and profit from that attempt of manipulation. I think going long or short on bitUSD when someone is obviously manipulating the price would be really easy money.

I suppose there is one potential thing that could screw it up, and that is if someone had much more money than the market could bare IE. if the bad actors had more money than the good actors. I think this becomes less of a problem as deep market depth is established, and I don't even think there would be an economic incentive to do so as the market would eventually eat it all up. I'm not so sure about this point though.. I'll have to think about it more, but I am certain when I say it won't be nearly as big of a deal as market depth is established.
ChuckOne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 10:58:21 PM
 #75

@CoinHoarder

You said "bitUSD will closely resemble the value of the US dollar because people will be able to easily profit from it if it doesn't."

Could you elaborate more on this?
CoinHoarder
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1456
Merit: 1025

In Cryptocoins I Trust


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 10:59:29 PM
 #76

It works much the same that it does in any free market. Manipulators are taking a risk by manipulating the market. The manipulators are taking a risk that the public recognizes the manipulation and the market immediately corrects, causing the manipulator to lose a considerable amount of money. If they do not recognize this manipulation and see it as a normal market movement, then they stand to profit from it.

You question as to what would someone stand to gain from manipulating the bitUSD market is exactly why I think bitassets will work, because there is really no incentive at all. Unlike Bitcoin being traded in the free market, people can easily look up exactly what the value of the US dollar (or Btcoin, gold, etcetra) is relative to BitsharesX by comparing the current market value of the BitsharesX/USD (or BitsharesX/BTC/USD) trading pairs on other exchanges. It will be much easier to detect manipulation of a bitasset when you know almost exactly what that asset is worth in the real world markets from thing like data aggregators and market feeds.

You cannot prevent manipulation in the gold, Bitcoin, Or FIAT markets, but the fact it will be so easy to tell if bitassets do not equal the current value of a real world commodity is the reason why I think it is unlikely to be manipulated. Manipulation will likely be very unprofitable in bitassets due to the obvious value of the commodities traded which people can get from many 3rd party services and data feeds which come directly from those markets. Therefore, bitassets will closely resemble the value of their real world counterparts.

Ah, wait. You are talking about manipulation... Let me get this straight:

1) bitUSD is pegged to the USD basically means that traders are encouraged to trade bitUSDs according to the prices of real-world goods and services in USD

2) corrections are done by: traders simply agree on how much a bitUSD should be worth by looking at the prices of those real-world goods and services in USD

3) therefore, speculators speculating on higher or lower prices of bitUSD are not able to bring down or up the price BECAUSE the honest majority of the traders simply agreed on a fixed price

=> there will be huge sell and buy wall right below and right above the agreed upon price

Is that correct?

Yes, that seems correct. That is how the correct value of a bitasset is determined, and is likely to resemble the true value of that asset in the real world.

There is another layer on top of that though, as people can bet on the price rising or falling relative to the value of BitsharesX, and make money that way as well. So, it is not only for determining the value of an asset in the real world, but it is also for people whom would like to profit on market movements.
robrigo
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 139
Merit: 100


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 11:02:09 PM
 #77

BitUSD Trading Guide by the BitShares communiy for the interested: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fVyf5oVsLZCrjkptNi2I-GPldIp-QM3vmTKpyy_2ZVU/edit

Twitter: @robrig0

In Detroit? Want to learn more about BitShares? RSVP for the meetup! http://www.meetup.com/bitshares-worldwide/
Gentso1
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 156
Merit: 100


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 11:10:25 PM
 #78

I spent a 1 hour the other night to learn about nxt. The assets are back by reputation alone.......that doesn't work for me

Our asset's are backed by that ever growing market cap of btsx (right now$ 55,612,604) it is this that is used as collateral to "print" the bitUSD.

Think of bitUSD as a alt coin that holds its value to the dollar and is backed by shares in btsx.

the Bitshares forums are a mess but the people you find their genuinely want to help. Take the time to read and ask questions thats all most of us want.   
ChuckOne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 11:16:23 PM
 #79

I spent a 1 hour the other night to learn about nxt. The assets are back by reputation alone.......that doesn't work for me

Our asset's are backed by that ever growing market cap of btsx (right now$ 55,612,604) it is this that is used as collateral to "print" the bitUSD.

Think of bitUSD as a alt coin that holds its value to the dollar and is backed by shares in btsx.

the Bitshares forums are a mess but the people you find their genuinely want to help. Take the time to read and ask questions thats all most of us want.   

Hmm. I think I will need to sleep one night or two over this. That system looks a bit fragile if you ask me.

(btw. there will be NXT backed assets shortly in the next major feature release, so, not back by reputation alone anymore.)
From Above
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 686
Merit: 520



View Profile
August 22, 2014, 11:19:14 PM
 #80

LOL nxt-noobs hating on dem bitsharez-noobs

what a festival ! where is the beer and popcorn.

~CfA~

CoinHoarder
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1456
Merit: 1025

In Cryptocoins I Trust


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 11:29:46 PM
 #81

@CoinHoarder

You said "bitUSD will closely resemble the value of the US dollar because people will be able to easily profit from it if it doesn't."

Could you elaborate more on this?

If the value of 1 bitUSD is less than the value of 1 actual US dollar, then it would probably be an easy decision to buy bitUSD above the current bitUSD market price (closer to the actual real life value of the US dollar.) When the bitUSD market corrects to match your position, you will have profited off of that price movement, and you end up with more BitsharesX than you started with.

If the value of 1 bitUSD is more than the value of 1 actual US dollar, then it would probably be an easy decision to buy bitUSD below the current bitUSD market price (closer to the actual real life value of the US dollar.) When the bitUSD corrects to match your position, you will have profited off of that price movement, and you end up with more BitsharesX than you started with.

BitUSD Trading Guide by the BitShares communiy for the interested: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fVyf5oVsLZCrjkptNi2I-GPldIp-QM3vmTKpyy_2ZVU/edit

I think Daniel explains the dynamics of trading better than I can in this document. I have not read it yet, so I apologize if I have spread any misconceptions. I do not think I have though... he just explains pretty much the same things in a different way.

For instance... I already learned something I did not realize. After quickly scanning over the document, it seems there is another protection from manipulation built into the market:

Quote
Maximum Price Movement
The ability to short and the price at which margin calls are executed is limited by a moving average of the price.  There is a maximum rate of change on this price equal to 0.09% every 10 seconds.  This averages out to about 33% per hour.   These price restrictions do not apply to those selling BitUSD for BTSX, only for those looking to short or for margin calls.   The purpose of these restrictions is to give the market time to react to potential manipulation attacks.
ChuckOne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 11:34:20 PM
 #82

@CoinHoarder

You said "bitUSD will closely resemble the value of the US dollar because people will be able to easily profit from it if it doesn't."

Could you elaborate more on this?

If the value of 1 bitUSD is less than the value of 1 actual US dollar, then it would probably be an easy decision to buy bitUSD above the current bitUSD market price (closer to the actual real life value of the US dollar.) When the bitUSD market corrects to match your position, you will have profited off of that price movement, and you end up with more BitsharesX than you started with.

If the value of 1 bitUSD is more than the value of 1 actual US dollar, then it would probably be an easy decision to buy bitUSD below the current bitUSD market price (closer to the actual real life value of the US dollar.) When the bitUSD corrects to match your position, you will have profited off of that price movement, and you end up with more BitsharesX than you started with.

This assumes that the correction happens.

Why should it happen?
ChuckOne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 11:36:29 PM
 #83

Quote
Maximum Price Movement
The ability to short and the price at which margin calls are executed is limited by a moving average of the price.  There is a maximum rate of change on this price equal to 0.09% every 10 seconds.  This averages out to about 33% per hour.   These price restrictions do not apply to those selling BitUSD for BTSX, only for those looking to short or for margin calls.   The purpose of these restrictions is to give the market time to react to potential manipulation attacks.

This assumes that people use the internal trading mechanism, right?

If they trade bitUSD and BTSX against each other on centralized exchanges, nothing will protect the price from fluctuating.

Are those assumptions correct?
From Above
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 686
Merit: 520



View Profile
August 22, 2014, 11:40:42 PM
 #84

chuckone are u fucksing stupid or why do u have to ask everything like spoon by spoon when u can just read it all on dem web resources ?  where do u think the coinhorder man got his knowledge from asking him non stop ?

do u have some basic brains capable of reading ?


~CfA~

CoinHoarder
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1456
Merit: 1025

In Cryptocoins I Trust


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 11:46:49 PM
 #85

@CoinHoarder

You said "bitUSD will closely resemble the value of the US dollar because people will be able to easily profit from it if it doesn't."

Could you elaborate more on this?

If the value of 1 bitUSD is less than the value of 1 actual US dollar, then it would probably be an easy decision to buy bitUSD above the current bitUSD market price (closer to the actual real life value of the US dollar.) When the bitUSD market corrects to match your position, you will have profited off of that price movement, and you end up with more BitsharesX than you started with.

If the value of 1 bitUSD is more than the value of 1 actual US dollar, then it would probably be an easy decision to buy bitUSD below the current bitUSD market price (closer to the actual real life value of the US dollar.) When the bitUSD corrects to match your position, you will have profited off of that price movement, and you end up with more BitsharesX than you started with.

This assumes that the correction happens.

Why should it happen?

It will correct because traders can profit off of the price correcting, and the people trying to manipulate the price will lose money as long as the majority of trading volume is not manipulating the price. By trying to manipulate the market, you are betting that others will follow your lead which is quite risky. If others don't try to manipulate the market and bitUSD stays close to the value of a US dollar, any manipulator will lose money.

Please read that document if you haven't, it explains a lot of this in detail. I need to step away for a while.. my fingers hurt  my dog needs to go on a walk. Smiley bbl
instacalm
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 798
Merit: 500



View Profile
August 22, 2014, 11:47:39 PM
 #86

my fingers hurt  my dog needs to go on a walk. Smiley bbl

Are you typing it all on your iPad again? Wink
CoinHoarder
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1456
Merit: 1025

In Cryptocoins I Trust


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 11:49:53 PM
 #87

my fingers hurt  my dog needs to go on a walk. Smiley bbl

Are you typing it all on your iPad again? Wink

It ran out of battery a hour ago rofl, but I was. Grin

Maybe someone else can help me out here. Wink

Am I doing a decent job so far in explaining this? I admit I am not entirely sure how bitassets will work either, but it mostly makes sense I think. Having this conversation has helped me too.
ChuckOne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


View Profile
August 22, 2014, 11:55:40 PM
 #88

my fingers hurt  my dog needs to go on a walk. Smiley bbl

Are you typing it all on your iPad again? Wink

It ran out of battery a hour ago rofl, but I was. Grin

Maybe someone else can help me out here. Wink

Am I doing a decent job so far in explaining this? I admit I am not entirely sure how bitassets will work either, but it mostly makes sense I think. Having this conversation has helped me too.

Thank you for putting up those pieces of information here. I think they gave us all a decent understanding what BitShares is about.

My assessment still is: it looks like a very complex and fragile system. If it ever gets out of balance, it blows up.

Furthermore, all of this assumes that people use the internal trading system and do not transfer bitUSD or BTSX via "normal" exchanges.
PilotofBTC
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1736
Merit: 1001


View Profile
August 23, 2014, 12:00:16 AM
 #89

I spent a 1 hour the other night to learn about nxt. The assets are back by reputation alone.......that doesn't work for me

It depends on the asset. Some are a representation of something, like the NxtGenMining assets. Each NxtGenGHS asset is 1 GH/s of SHA256 hashing power represented by real mining hardware. The asset pays "dividends" in the form of NXT purchased with the mined coin minus the fee to cover the hosting/electricity overhead.

Some are a token of value elsewhere... like the bitfinex_usd asset which is backed by a bitfinex account that is audited monthly. Also the mgwCOIN assets that are a representation of the actual coins help in the mgw wallets secured by multi-signature addresses.

Some are like mutual funds that hold other assets.

I think the hope is that some will become registered securities of real companies. But, basically, any Stock is similar... there are penny stocks and blue chips. You have to do your due diligence.
PilotofBTC
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1736
Merit: 1001


View Profile
August 23, 2014, 12:02:12 AM
 #90

LOL nxt-noobs hating on dem bitsharez-noobs

what a festival ! where is the beer and popcorn.

~CfA~

I don't see any hating here. You're trying to stir the pot rather than contributing something of value with your post.
From Above
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 686
Merit: 520



View Profile
August 23, 2014, 12:05:19 AM
 #91

LOL nxt-noobs hating on dem bitsharez-noobs

what a festival ! where is the beer and popcorn.

~CfA~

I don't see any hating here. You're trying to stir the pot rather than contributing something of value with your post.

ok I see a picture of the bitshares creator with ben bernanke in the first posts with ben saying his young 'apprentice' unleashing a scam and the title of the thread is The Great Satan on the Blockchain

ROFL DO U suffer from HARDCORE DELUSION dude?  if this is not an extreme attack then id call it crypto cold war.  its obvious the nxt puppet is envying the bitshares puppetry like a dork so he wants to ridicule it LOL... to me this is entertainment cuz I just laugh at both

~CfA~

From Above
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 686
Merit: 520



View Profile
August 23, 2014, 12:09:14 AM
 #92

ILL QUOTE THIS NOW in case the fucking nxt puppet wants to delete the crap hes postin LOL

~CfA~

source https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/bitshares-the-great-satan-on-the-blockchain/


Kinda like how a $100 bill is worth $100 just because everybody believes it to be so? Exactly. Wink

The power of bitUSD is that it does not have a fixed supply. The BTSX network "prints" as much bitUSD as is necessary to keep the price of bitUSD below that of fiatUSD, and destroys as much as necessary to keep the price above that of fiatUSD. Hence, the price of bitUSD can be neither above nor below that of fiatUSD.

It's very simple: fixed supply = variable price, and fixed price = variable supply.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

The Federal Reserve controls the USD supply.

Replace "Federal Reserve" with "DAC" and add "bit" to "USD"...

The DAC controls the bitUSD supply.

CONGRATULATIONS! YOU'VE JUST INVENTED FEDERAL RESERVE 2.0!

That's the goal. Now what if you had a chance to purchase shares in the Fed in 1920?

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

Bitshares is self-admittedly an attempt to recreate a central banking scheme in crypto form.  Bitshares' DPoS is a centralized consensus system that relies upon a set number of nodes achieving consensus.

Quote
In practice BitShares isn't a distributed system, it is more like coordinated synchronized time shared centralized system.  -bytemaster

These 101 delegates are responsible for including transactions on the bitshares network.  Now think about this.  The DAC attempts to set monetary policy for the "bit assets" depending on the market price.  If there are more sellers, the DAC destroys bit assets.  If there are more buyers, the DAC prints more bit assets.  So, whoever controls the transactions included on the blockchain controls the DAC or monetary policy that the DAC enacts on the entire network.  Who controls the transactions included on the blockchain?  The 101 delegates.

How does the Federal Reserve set the monetary policy for the US dollar?

Federal Reserve monetary policy is decided by the FOMC (Federal Open Market Committee).  What is the FOMC?

Quote
It is this Federal Reserve committee which makes key decisions about interest rates and the growth of the United States money supply. -Wikipedia

The Federal Reserve achieves consensus on its monetary policy via a committee made up of delegates.

Bitshares = "Federal Reserve 2.0"
Bitshares' delegates = FOMC

PilotofBTC
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1736
Merit: 1001


View Profile
August 23, 2014, 12:13:42 AM
 #93

Ever heard of hyperbole? He was just stating his understanding... the thread was very civil discussion, well, until now I guess. Continue your ad hominem attacks.
From Above
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 686
Merit: 520



View Profile
August 23, 2014, 12:17:03 AM
 #94

Ever heard of hyperbole? He was just stating his understanding... the thread was very civil discussion, well, until now I guess. Continue your ad hominem attacks.

dont worry my little nifty boy i'll do my best to find a pic of urs and chuckone nifty faces and post it saying u r a satan on the blockchain unleashing a ben bernanke scam cuz i dont understand ur Nxt Coin ROFLMAO

lower than low the nxt bitches.  will u ever learn ?  ben bernanke prob did more than u ever will hahaha Cheesy

~CfA~

Gentso1
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 156
Merit: 100


View Profile
August 23, 2014, 12:19:13 AM
 #95

I spent a 1 hour the other night to learn about nxt. The assets are back by reputation alone.......that doesn't work for me

It depends on the asset. Some are a representation of something, like the NxtGenMining assets. Each NxtGenGHS asset is 1 GH/s of SHA256 hashing power represented by real mining hardware. The asset pays "dividends" in the form of NXT purchased with the mined coin minus the fee to cover the hosting/electricity overhead.

Some are a token of value elsewhere... like the bitfinex_usd asset which is backed by a bitfinex account that is audited monthly. Also the mgwCOIN assets that are a representation of the actual coins help in the mgw wallets secured by multi-signature addresses.

Some are like mutual funds that hold other assets.

I think the hope is that some will become registered securities of real companies. But, basically, any Stock is similar... there are penny stocks and blue chips. You have to do your due diligence.


Your right. I even saw that a user created a company that will do audits on other users assets to make sure that they really have what they say they have. Nxt also has a leg up in the fact that its got some age to it and has taken it's knocks so to speak. The system isn't bad its just different.

At Bitshares, once the platform was released the pace has been fast, very fast. I have found the people to have a unique blend of tech know how coupled with a (what I believe) great understanding of economics. Monday will tell us alot but I think even if it is not a successful run that the problems will be corrected.

But alas this is all speculation. We all bet on the platform we *think* will be the new big thing. Do some reading on the bitshares forum I know I gathered a few ideas from the nxt forum.  
TaunSew
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 756
Merit: 506


View Profile
August 23, 2014, 12:20:52 AM
 #96

Yes it's a Cold War.  Bitshares is Chinese Communists vs the free NXT world.  NXT does not know there is a war and hence they are losing.  Who do you think has been DOSing and hacking NXT over and over?

There ain't no Revolution like a NEMolution.  The only solution is Bitcoin's dissolution! NEM!
From Above
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 686
Merit: 520



View Profile
August 23, 2014, 12:23:26 AM
 #97

Yes it's a Cold War.  Bitshares is Chinese Communists vs the free NXT world.  NXT does not know there is a war and hence they are losing.  Who do you think has been DOSing and hacking NXT over and over?

i dont give a care if its called nxt or bitshares its all capitalism 2.0 in favor of riches like me so i like it.  as long as it makes great fiat money in my bank account im all for it.  just funny to see the dorks raging over their penny investments fearing the shit out of it like Chuck one lol

~CfA~

Spoetnik
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1540
Merit: 1011


FUD Philanthropist™


View Profile
August 23, 2014, 12:51:04 AM
 #98

LOL nxt-noobs hating on dem bitsharez-noobs

what a festival ! where is the beer and popcorn.

~CfA~

PIPE DOWN INFIDEL

FUD first & ask questions later™
Spoetnik
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1540
Merit: 1011


FUD Philanthropist™


View Profile
August 23, 2014, 12:55:57 AM
 #99

Yes it's a Cold War.  Bitshares is Chinese Communists vs the free NXT world.  NXT does not know there is a war and hence they are losing.  Who do you think has been DOSing and hacking NXT over and over?


sorry but i would take Chinese communism over USA free world freedom enforced with the barrel of a machine gun..
wonder why Russia and China are clamping down in the news over various US exports ?
the world is thoroughly fed up with USA no.1 round eye and now they are doing something about it !

by the way the only thing the USA is no.1 at is Chinese imports.. and debt.. and being the worlds most problematic war monger.. and ...

Ya let's model a digital currency on a failed American economy  Roll Eyes

FUD first & ask questions later™
CoinHoarder
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1456
Merit: 1025

In Cryptocoins I Trust


View Profile
August 23, 2014, 01:04:41 AM
 #100

Hmm. I think I will need to sleep one night or two over this. That system looks a bit fragile if you ask me.

(btw. there will be NXT backed assets shortly in the next major feature release, so, not back by reputation alone anymore.)

How is Nxt planning on doing this? I have a feeling it may be the same as BitsharesX's back up plan.. getting the average of a bunch of market data feeds.

If it is a different approach, could you explain how you guys are planning on doing it?
FandangledGizmo
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1139
Merit: 1001


View Profile
August 23, 2014, 01:23:35 AM
 #101

Hmm. I think I will need to sleep one night or two over this. That system looks a bit fragile if you ask me.

(btw. there will be NXT backed assets shortly in the next major feature release, so, not back by reputation alone anymore.)

How is Nxt planning on doing this? I have a feeling it may be the same as BitsharesX's back up plan.. getting the average of a bunch of market data feeds.

If it is a different approach, could you explain how you guys are planning on doing it?

I think theirs isn't even that, it's just a very basic implementation of collateral to give a base value to a user issued asset.

So an issuer can lock up some NXT when they create a user issued assets which 'backs' it.

Like someone on their system can make 'Y' Asset, with a 100 total tokens and lock up 100 NXT in the beginning, then you know each 'Y' is at least redeemable for 1 NXT. Something like that.

I guess it can help seed or give some confidence in a new user issued asset or something?

bytemaster
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 770
Merit: 559

BitShares


View Profile WWW
August 23, 2014, 04:10:34 AM
 #102

It is quite entertaining seeing what people are saying about me.  As someone who believes in finding free market solutions to secure our life, liberty, and property and whom is more anarcho-capitalist than anyone I have ever met it is absolutely hilarious that I am being accused of following Helicopter Ben.



My core value system is centered around property rights and my economics are Austrian.   

The problem this thread has is that everyone is talking past each other and that is understandable given how hard it is to internalize the market mechanics and then explain what you know to others. 

The primary assumption is that there exists a crypto-asset with no counter party and a non-zero value.  IE: bitcoin, Nxt, and BTSX.

The secondary assumption is that the volatility of this asset is within some reasonable range.  200% initial collateral seems to be reasonable, but it could easily be 400% if the volatility called for it.   

Given these assumptions we then assume there are two individuals in the free market that want a "contract for difference".  Contracts for difference are well established and proven and even used in counter party.  One person is given price stability and the other is given leverage.   

If you assume the contract for difference was settled by a 3rd party price feed then it is clear how it would work.   

So given those initial fundamentals we can slowly build up to BitAssets.   The first step is to take the same contract and remove the 3rd party price feed and instead use Nash Equilibrium.  Both parties will want to exit at some point and thus have to agree on a price in the future.  Assuming they were both equally wanting to exit their position the price they would agree at would be the "fair price".   Now clearly if there are only two parties to the trade they may not want to exit at the same time.    So you allow the "long" side to sell his position to others and you allow the "short" side to cover with anyone.   

If someone wants to be a stubborn jerk and not settle then that is fine.... eventually a margin call will be triggered.   The peg will fluctuate as the relative demand for longs vs shorts settling causes the peg to have a settlement premium sufficient to motivate settlement.   

I think it is fairly clear that if there is a price feed from a trusted source that was used to enforce settlement then the system would work to the extent that you could trust the feed.   The hypothesis is that this price feed is irrelevant given a market full of speculators and market makers willing to hold until a short voluntarily covers at a fair market price.

I hope that through this perspective I have shown what the economic incentives are and how the core principles are sound.  All that remains to be seen is whether "market consensus and speculation" is enough to enforce a peg via a "decentralized price feed" or "prediction market" mechanic.  My understanding of game theory and economic incentives tells me this will work, but even if I am wrong I know that price feeds can be used as a "trusted" judge on the "smart contracts for difference".   It is an entirely different game to trust someone to produce a fair feed (or 101 someones) than to trust someone to maintain a vault full of gold.

 

 

 

https://steemit.com  Blogging is the new Mining
Indemnified
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 216
Merit: 100


View Profile
August 23, 2014, 04:23:34 AM
 #103

Thanks for bringing some clarity to this discussion.
devphp
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 336
Merit: 250


View Profile
August 23, 2014, 05:07:40 AM
 #104

my economics are Austrian.   

Well, that's good. Except this doesn't correlate with Bitshares's decision to support the price of BTSX with the IPO funds. This is rigging of the market, not free market, and this is exactly what central banks do in the fiat world.
bytemaster
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 770
Merit: 559

BitShares


View Profile WWW
August 23, 2014, 05:28:28 AM
 #105

my economics are Austrian.   

Well, that's good. Except this doesn't correlate with Bitshares's decision to support the price of BTSX with the IPO funds. This is rigging of the market, not free market, and this is exactly what central banks do in the fiat world.

That wasn't what was going on there.  That was us making an investment decision based upon expected growth.  I know enough that you don't make money by fighting the markets.

https://steemit.com  Blogging is the new Mining
devphp
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 336
Merit: 250


View Profile
August 23, 2014, 05:30:17 AM
 #106

That was us making an investment decision based upon expected growth.

Well, that would be like self-fulfilling prophecy then, wouldn't it? You prop up the price with the IPO funds and there is your expected growth realized in price charts Wink

Please reconsider your decision, or you may end up being grouped in the same category as keynesian central bankers. And you can also end up being owner of a sizeable portion of BTSX (20-30%), which goes against decentralization ideals and goals.
fuznutts
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 158
Merit: 10


View Profile
August 23, 2014, 05:41:13 AM
 #107

All i'm going to say is that I am one of the biggest "conspiracy theorists" around...and after a LONG time learning about bitshares I am wholly in the camp that believes, as toast says, the "150% reserve" system they are setting up *if the peg holds* is going to piss off a lot of "elite", NWO banker types.  Why?  Because it is NOT fractional and is dictated by market forces---not an monopolistic cabal of old-world money that is the enemy of all free people

Sincerely hope people will do some reading and even attend the weekly mumble hangout that Dan has with--quite literally--anyone who wants to attend.  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4150.0  

Go ahead...visit...ask those tough questions in person!  Oh, and btw, anyone who attends can record and report on these sessions!
From Above
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 686
Merit: 520



View Profile
August 23, 2014, 05:43:45 AM
 #108

Please reconsider your decision, or you may end up being grouped in the same category as keynesian central bankers. And you can also end up being owner of a sizeable portion of BTSX (20-30%), which goes against decentralization ideals and goals.

a nifty little nxt whale parasite giving what they call the 'great satan on the blockchain bernanke friend' nifty hints as to what he should do and what better not LOL.  Crypto Cold War.

=)

WOW I love that CryptoEntertainment

~CfA~

nikola384
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 76
Merit: 10


View Profile
August 23, 2014, 05:52:14 AM
 #109

That was us making an investment decision based upon expected growth.

Well, that would be like self-fulfilling prophecy then, wouldn't it? You prop up the price with the IPO funds and there is your expected growth realized in price charts Wink

Please reconsider your decision, or you may end up being grouped in the same category as keynesian central bankers. And you can also end up being owner of a sizeable portion of BTSX (20-30%), which goes against decentralization ideals and goals.


Sincerely hope people will do some reading and even attend the weekly mumble hangout that Dan has with--quite literally--anyone who wants to attend.  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=4150.0  

Go ahead...visit...ask those tough questions in person!
Reading devphp's post here and on the NXT forum, I think he has done his share or reading about bitshares; And with every passing minute he is more and more concerned that he is about to become the buyer in the famous pizza/BTC story...

From Above
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 686
Merit: 520



View Profile
August 23, 2014, 05:54:43 AM
 #110

Reading devphp's post here and on the NXT forum, I think he has done his share or reading about bitshares; And with every passing minute he is more and more concerned that he is about to become the buyer in the famous pizza/BTC story...

hi nikola im not sure if u r new or not but 'crypto 2.0 advocates' and IN PARTICULAR the NxTsees bitches are the hardcore delusionists of the cryptoscene.  they think NXT is something like a GOD particle which is unrivaled in the universe

devphp thinks he is some kind of Crypto Halfgod Man and only THROUGH the LIGHT of Nxt can u come to the financial freedom.  i know it sounds ridiculous yes sure but this is the worldview these people have LOL

now the question is when will BiTShares guys begin to be like this too LOL

~CfA~

TaunSew
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 756
Merit: 506


View Profile
August 23, 2014, 06:13:16 AM
Last edit: August 23, 2014, 06:23:54 AM by TaunSew
 #111

biTshares is another 2.0 pump as far as I can tell.  You're trying to tell us it's this popular thing but all I see is 90%+ of it being dominated by a few funds in China ~ classic pump and dump.  

biTshares people have invaded Bitcointalk and many crypto forums to try to plead people to get into the pump.   Roll Eyes  

 It's beyond ridiculous as bitassets hasn't even been released yet nor is it proprietary technology.  When the Chinese funds stop pumping then there'll be this air sucking sound, biTshares will stagnate and NXT will implement its' own collateral and pegging system if it's actually a demanded feature and not a hype speculation like anonymity was for the past four months.


Congratulations biTshares it took you months to copy NXT's asset exchange (with a few whistles added).  NXT is still the most innovative crypto.

There ain't no Revolution like a NEMolution.  The only solution is Bitcoin's dissolution! NEM!
chryspano
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 911
Merit: 1000



View Profile
August 23, 2014, 08:00:37 AM
 #112

biTshares is another 2.0 pump as far as I can tell.  You're trying to tell us it's this popular thing but all I see is 90%+ of it being dominated by a few funds in China ~ classic pump and dump.  

biTshares people have invaded Bitcointalk and many crypto forums to try to plead people to get into the pump.   Roll Eyes  

 It's beyond ridiculous as bitassets hasn't even been released yet nor is it proprietary technology.  When the Chinese funds stop pumping then there'll be this air sucking sound, biTshares will stagnate and NXT will implement its' own collateral and pegging system if it's actually a demanded feature and not a hype speculation like anonymity was for the past four months.


Congratulations biTshares it took you months to copy NXT's asset exchange (with a few whistles added).  NXT is still the most innovative crypto.



Nxt is inferior to bitshares, you are really pissed off because you CAN'T copy bitshares!!





under this line you can continue with your lies, fud and misinformation you have a mission after all...
==============================================================================
Tradingriver
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 150
Merit: 100


View Profile
August 23, 2014, 08:34:54 AM
 #113

biTshares is another 2.0 pump as far as I can tell.  You're trying to tell us it's this popular thing but all I see is 90%+ of it being dominated by a few funds in China ~ classic pump and dump.  

biTshares people have invaded Bitcointalk and many crypto forums to try to plead people to get into the pump.   Roll Eyes  



1. NXT startet with 75 contributer - do you call NXT also a pump and dump?
2. If this is a Bitcointalk invasion - no country at all would lift a finger to fight this 5 guys. Makes me laughing really loud.

I think i will end this communication. I believe in the technology, but only the future will tell the outcome. If i am right i make good money, if i am wrong i loose it. That's ok for me.
"End of communication"
TaunSew
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 756
Merit: 506


View Profile
August 23, 2014, 08:54:25 AM
Last edit: August 23, 2014, 09:28:08 AM by TaunSew
 #114

biTshares is another 2.0 pump as far as I can tell.  You're trying to tell us it's this popular thing but all I see is 90%+ of it being dominated by a few funds in China ~ classic pump and dump.  

biTshares people have invaded Bitcointalk and many crypto forums to try to plead people to get into the pump.   Roll Eyes  



1. NXT startet with 75 contributer - do you call NXT also a pump and dump?
2. If this is a Bitcointalk invasion - no country at all would lift a finger to fight this 5 guys. Makes me laughing really loud.

I think i will end this communication. I believe in the technology, but only the future will tell the outcome. If i am right i make good money, if i am wrong i loose it. That's ok for me.
"End of communication"

Where do you think the term  "another" came from?  Yes there are painful cyclical pump and dumps with NXT.  I don't see how BitsharesX has proven to be any different as it looks like it's a game of musical chairs for a few rich investors from China. This isn't the exact same scam as a $hitcoin but the level of manipulation here is going to burn any creditability behind BitsharesX, much like NXT has burnt many bridges.

The fact the BitsharesX people are invading all these crypto forums (you see them starting threads like on the NXT forum) just to promote their pump.

Worse of all is this pump is occurring before bitassets even comes out, which is a definite sign that this is a temporary bubble.   The guys who initiated the pump are likely going to be cashing out soon.

Reality will sit in quickly when bitAssets does actually come out and it doesn't live to the hype or the masses simply have no use for it (the amount of people buying into this pump bubble outweighs the actual number of people who are going to bother with these assets.  Which is also true for other speculative pumps that we have seen for other features in other cryptos)


There ain't no Revolution like a NEMolution.  The only solution is Bitcoin's dissolution! NEM!
ChuckOne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


View Profile
August 23, 2014, 09:02:04 AM
 #115

Hmm. I think I will need to sleep one night or two over this. That system looks a bit fragile if you ask me.

(btw. there will be NXT backed assets shortly in the next major feature release, so, not back by reputation alone anymore.)

How is Nxt planning on doing this? I have a feeling it may be the same as BitsharesX's back up plan.. getting the average of a bunch of market data feeds.

If it is a different approach, could you explain how you guys are planning on doing it?

Something, the Monetary System of Nxt will be missing is the pegging to real-world fiat AND has a fix initial supply of the money.

In order to express it with the words of Mike Maloney, bitUSD is currency and Nxt Money is money. I am not sure if those words do really care the assumed meaning but he certainly has a point. (I for one believe that this distinction is made up by him but his definition is useful)

So in Nxt, people can create a new currencies by locking away m NXTs and create n new tokens. Everybody can redeem the NXTs looked away proportionally to the amount of money they are willing to redeem. So, no pegging to the real-world and nobody can increase the supply and therefore rob others of their wealth.
ChuckOne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


View Profile
August 23, 2014, 09:43:05 AM
 #116

My core value system is centered around property rights and my economics are Austrian.  

The problem this thread has is that everyone is talking past each other and that is understandable given how hard it is to internalize the market mechanics and then explain what you know to others.  

The primary assumption is that there exists a crypto-asset with no counter party and a non-zero value.  IE: bitcoin, Nxt, and BTSX.

The secondary assumption is that the volatility of this asset is within some reasonable range.  200% initial collateral seems to be reasonable, but it could easily be 400% if the volatility called for it.  

Given these assumptions we then assume there are two individuals in the free market that want a "contract for difference".  Contracts for difference are well established and proven and even used in counter party.  One person is given price stability and the other is given leverage.  

If you assume the contract for difference was settled by a 3rd party price feed then it is clear how it would work.  

So given those initial fundamentals we can slowly build up to BitAssets.   The first step is to take the same contract and remove the 3rd party price feed and instead use Nash Equilibrium.  Both parties will want to exit at some point and thus have to agree on a price in the future.  Assuming they were both equally wanting to exit their position the price they would agree at would be the "fair price".   Now clearly if there are only two parties to the trade they may not want to exit at the same time.    So you allow the "long" side to sell his position to others and you allow the "short" side to cover with anyone.    

If someone wants to be a stubborn jerk and not settle then that is fine.... eventually a margin call will be triggered.   The peg will fluctuate as the relative demand for longs vs shorts settling causes the peg to have a settlement premium sufficient to motivate settlement.  

I think it is fairly clear that if there is a price feed from a trusted source that was used to enforce settlement then the system would work to the extent that you could trust the feed.   The hypothesis is that this price feed is irrelevant given a market full of speculators and market makers willing to hold until a short voluntarily covers at a fair market price.

I hope that through this perspective I have shown what the economic incentives are and how the core principles are sound.  All that remains to be seen is whether "market consensus and speculation" is enough to enforce a peg via a "decentralized price feed" or "prediction market" mechanic.  My understanding of game theory and economic incentives tells me this will work, but even if I am wrong I know that price feeds can be used as a "trusted" judge on the "smart contracts for difference".   It is an entirely different game to trust someone to produce a fair feed (or 101 someones) than to trust someone to maintain a vault full of gold.

Hi bytemaster,

thank you for coming over here and providing these underlying assumptions. Smiley

Besides from having problems to understand all this (not my metier - so even if I understand the terminologies one by one, understanding their interplay is extremely hard), as people pointed out tinkering with the money supply seems like the feed being the FED.

The biggest problem here is that Average Joe (regarding financial instruments) does simply not understand what you mean by short, long, margin call, Nash equilibrium, contract of difference, peg, a short covers, settlement premium, etc. etc. and now we got Average Joe relying on somebody who, first, is able to understand all of that, AND second, is even able to change the bitUSD supply.


Those two observations lead to the question what is this bitUSD asset about and where is the difference to the current monetary system we have? Because as it seems (or at least the perception is) that financial investors, speculators and banksters are misusing the current system in order enrich themselves just because they can and understand the system; whereas Average Joe does not.


Am I correct that if bitUSD is really peggable by the USD, it would allow to build an economy around that cryptocurrency much faster than with Bitcoin or Nxt because merchants can be sure to have stable prices?
TinEye
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 639
Merit: 500



View Profile
August 23, 2014, 10:07:58 AM
 #117

biTshares is another 2.0 pump as far as I can tell.  You're trying to tell us it's this popular thing but all I see is 90%+ of it being dominated by a few funds in China ~ classic pump and dump.  

biTshares people have invaded Bitcointalk and many crypto forums to try to plead people to get into the pump.   Roll Eyes  

 It's beyond ridiculous as bitassets hasn't even been released yet nor is it proprietary technology.  When the Chinese funds stop pumping then there'll be this air sucking sound, biTshares will stagnate and NXT will implement its' own collateral and pegging system if it's actually a demanded feature and not a hype speculation like anonymity was for the past four months.


Congratulations biTshares it took you months to copy NXT's asset exchange (with a few whistles added).  NXT is still the most innovative crypto.


Instead of wasting time trying to play down Bitshares here, go and try to make NEM the best it can be. In particular, see if you can implement this DPOS there, it seems better than TF.



                                                                    ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
                                                                   ▄█████████                  ██████
                                                                   ███    ███                 ██   ██
         ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████    ██████████████████████   ████████▀
        ██            ▄█          █▄                 █▄          ███            █▄          █        ▄██▀
       ██            ██           ███                ██   ▄▄▄▄▄  ███            ██   ▄▄▄▄▄  ██   █████▀
       ██   █████    ██   ████   ████   ██     ██    ██   ▀▀▀▀   ██    ██████   ██   ▀▀▀▀   ██   ████▀
      ██    █████   ██    ████   ████   ██     ██   ██          ███   ██████   ██          ██   ████▀
      ██            ██           ███   ███    ███   ██    ▀▀▀▀▀▀███            ██    ▀▀▀▀▀▀██   ▀▀▀████
      ███           ██▄            █   ██     ██    ██▄          █             ▀█▄          ██      ███
       █████████   ████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
      ██           ██
    ██▀           ███
  ████████████████▀
Afridon
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 133
Merit: 100


View Profile
August 23, 2014, 10:52:23 AM
 #118

The concept of bitUSD is intresting and good but i think it won't work,so many details.
ChuckOne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


View Profile
August 23, 2014, 10:54:46 AM
 #119

The concept of bitUSD is intresting and good but i think it won't work,so many details.

Interesting. I think that backs up my point.
EvilDave
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 854
Merit: 1001



View Profile
August 23, 2014, 11:21:28 AM
 #120

So, to sum up the situation:

BitsharesX probably is a legit operation.

The most vocal BTT/Bitshares community seems to be 3-5 new accounts plus C-f-A. (Way to go BTS!)

BTSX price (and the #3 market cap) is being propped up by using IPO money to pump it.

Hmm....still not very convinced: even if the core tech works like the best thing ever,
this kind of marketing bullshit is just gonna piss people off pretty soon.



Point from TaunSew.....maybe I should be more paranoid.
Yes it's a Cold War.  Bitshares is Chinese Communists vs the free NXT world.  NXT does not know there is a war and hence they are losing.  Who do you think has been DOSing and hacking NXT over and over?
Need to point out that, so far, NXT hasn't yet been hacked in any way that affects the core NXT technology.
All of the NXT thefts have been either basic social engineeering attacks, or weak password security.

Nulli Dei, nulli Reges, solum NXT
Love your money: www.nxt.org  www.ardorplatform.org
www.nxter.org  www.nxtfoundation.org
devphp
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 336
Merit: 250


View Profile
August 23, 2014, 11:27:24 AM
 #121

We need a BTSX/NXT trading pair. Let's petition exchanges. Whether you're a BTSX believer or NXT believer, why do you want to go to Bitcoin? If you want to invest in both, and want to reshuffle your investments between the two as prices fluctuate, there is even less reason to exchange to Bitcoin first.


There must be a BTSX<->NXT direct exchange!

If you disagree, you're an enemy of both BTSX and NXT.

Please petition Bter in their support thread:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=280806.0
FandangledGizmo
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1139
Merit: 1001


View Profile
August 23, 2014, 01:13:59 PM
Last edit: August 23, 2014, 03:02:29 PM by FandangledGizmo
 #122

So, to sum up the situation:

BitsharesX probably is a legit operation.

The most vocal BTT/Bitshares community seems to be 3-5 new accounts plus C-f-A. (Way to go BTS!)

BTSX price (and the #3 market cap) is being propped up by using IPO money to pump it.


1. I would suggest the BitShares community is as big as NXT. Our forum has 5760 members. Besides me and a few others, they just don't come onto BTT as much. The provocative original title of this thread (BitShares - Great Satan on the blockchain ) as well as tasteless picture & baseless content from a few bad apples in NXT, which I otherwise like, is what drew a response from me.

2. The fact that BitShares want to increase their exposure to BTSX, for the investor minded, shows they have a lot of confidence in it. If they were selling I'd be worried. https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=7245.0

I personally enjoyed some of the content in this thread from Bytemaster when I was evaluating his views about the status quo etc. https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=2853.msg35523#msg35523

CLains
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 256
Merit: 250


View Profile
August 23, 2014, 01:48:53 PM
 #123

It is quite entertaining seeing what people are saying about me.  As someone who believes in finding free market solutions to secure our life, liberty, and property and whom is more anarcho-capitalist than anyone I have ever met it is absolutely hilarious that I am being accused of following Helicopter Ben.



My core value system is centered around property rights and my economics are Austrian.   

The problem this thread has is that everyone is talking past each other and that is understandable given how hard it is to internalize the market mechanics and then explain what you know to others. 

The primary assumption is that there exists a crypto-asset with no counter party and a non-zero value.  IE: bitcoin, Nxt, and BTSX.

The secondary assumption is that the volatility of this asset is within some reasonable range.  200% initial collateral seems to be reasonable, but it could easily be 400% if the volatility called for it.   

Given these assumptions we then assume there are two individuals in the free market that want a "contract for difference".  Contracts for difference are well established and proven and even used in counter party.  One person is given price stability and the other is given leverage.   

If you assume the contract for difference was settled by a 3rd party price feed then it is clear how it would work.   

So given those initial fundamentals we can slowly build up to BitAssets.   The first step is to take the same contract and remove the 3rd party price feed and instead use Nash Equilibrium.  Both parties will want to exit at some point and thus have to agree on a price in the future.  Assuming they were both equally wanting to exit their position the price they would agree at would be the "fair price".   Now clearly if there are only two parties to the trade they may not want to exit at the same time.    So you allow the "long" side to sell his position to others and you allow the "short" side to cover with anyone.   

If someone wants to be a stubborn jerk and not settle then that is fine.... eventually a margin call will be triggered.   The peg will fluctuate as the relative demand for longs vs shorts settling causes the peg to have a settlement premium sufficient to motivate settlement.   

I think it is fairly clear that if there is a price feed from a trusted source that was used to enforce settlement then the system would work to the extent that you could trust the feed.   The hypothesis is that this price feed is irrelevant given a market full of speculators and market makers willing to hold until a short voluntarily covers at a fair market price.

I hope that through this perspective I have shown what the economic incentives are and how the core principles are sound.  All that remains to be seen is whether "market consensus and speculation" is enough to enforce a peg via a "decentralized price feed" or "prediction market" mechanic.  My understanding of game theory and economic incentives tells me this will work, but even if I am wrong I know that price feeds can be used as a "trusted" judge on the "smart contracts for difference".   It is an entirely different game to trust someone to produce a fair feed (or 101 someones) than to trust someone to maintain a vault full of gold.

+101
From Above
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 686
Merit: 520



View Profile
August 23, 2014, 01:57:11 PM
Last edit: August 23, 2014, 02:15:59 PM by Come-from-Above
 #124

The most vocal BTT/Bitshares community seems to be 3-5 new accounts plus C-f-A. (Way to go BTS!)

i love u arrogant dandy dafe Smiley   but i dont like bitshares & nxt ipo scams.

if anything NxT guys managed to drive my NxT investment down and down for months cuz u stakehoders bitches cash out everytime the prices rises a tiny lil bit .. this is why its worthless in it s entirety .

better ethereum or some other large scale scam than little nifty NxTsys boys.

without my buy support nxt would long be dead LOL  Undecided

~CfA~

sparta_cuss
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 386
Merit: 250


View Profile
August 23, 2014, 10:32:22 PM
 #125

I wonder how much of Bitshares project is in line with BCNext's overall plan. This is from Part Two. 

"Regarding NXT as coins: NXTs are not coins... or at least the creator of Nxt didn't want them to be seen as coins. They are tokens that grant privileges for supporting Nxt.
Deflation is not much better than inflation. "Real" coins should be created on top of Nxt, and be issued in quantities that keep their value constant. BCNext understands that this is very arguable. The community should decide if it wants to follow the path showed by him, or stick to the Bitcoin legacy of an unchangeable supply of coins with which people hope to become rich by doing nothing."

See the full text here: http://wiki.nxtcrypto.org/wiki/BCNext%27s_Plan

"We must be willing to let go of the life we have planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us." - E.M. Forster
NXT: NXT-Z24T-YU6D-688W-EARDT
BTC: 19ULeXarogu2rT4dhJN9vhztaorqDC3U7s
toast
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 1484
Merit: 253



View Profile
August 23, 2014, 11:23:02 PM
 #126

It is quite entertaining seeing what people are saying about me.  As someone who believes in finding free market solutions to secure our life, liberty, and property and whom is more anarcho-capitalist than anyone I have ever met it is absolutely hilarious that I am being accused of following Helicopter Ben.



My core value system is centered around property rights and my economics are Austrian.   

The problem this thread has is that everyone is talking past each other and that is understandable given how hard it is to internalize the market mechanics and then explain what you know to others. 

The primary assumption is that there exists a crypto-asset with no counter party and a non-zero value.  IE: bitcoin, Nxt, and BTSX.

The secondary assumption is that the volatility of this asset is within some reasonable range.  200% initial collateral seems to be reasonable, but it could easily be 400% if the volatility called for it.   

Given these assumptions we then assume there are two individuals in the free market that want a "contract for difference".  Contracts for difference are well established and proven and even used in counter party.  One person is given price stability and the other is given leverage.   

If you assume the contract for difference was settled by a 3rd party price feed then it is clear how it would work.   

So given those initial fundamentals we can slowly build up to BitAssets.   The first step is to take the same contract and remove the 3rd party price feed and instead use Nash Equilibrium.  Both parties will want to exit at some point and thus have to agree on a price in the future.  Assuming they were both equally wanting to exit their position the price they would agree at would be the "fair price".   Now clearly if there are only two parties to the trade they may not want to exit at the same time.    So you allow the "long" side to sell his position to others and you allow the "short" side to cover with anyone.   

If someone wants to be a stubborn jerk and not settle then that is fine.... eventually a margin call will be triggered.   The peg will fluctuate as the relative demand for longs vs shorts settling causes the peg to have a settlement premium sufficient to motivate settlement.   

I think it is fairly clear that if there is a price feed from a trusted source that was used to enforce settlement then the system would work to the extent that you could trust the feed.   The hypothesis is that this price feed is irrelevant given a market full of speculators and market makers willing to hold until a short voluntarily covers at a fair market price.

I hope that through this perspective I have shown what the economic incentives are and how the core principles are sound.  All that remains to be seen is whether "market consensus and speculation" is enough to enforce a peg via a "decentralized price feed" or "prediction market" mechanic.  My understanding of game theory and economic incentives tells me this will work, but even if I am wrong I know that price feeds can be used as a "trusted" judge on the "smart contracts for difference".   It is an entirely different game to trust someone to produce a fair feed (or 101 someones) than to trust someone to maintain a vault full of gold.
 


Thank you. This thread needs less knee-jerk reaction and more discussion of the actual mechanics.

Fortunately the OP seems to have become interested in how this thing works and has calmed down with the flaming a little bit... meanwhile I think it would do everyone good to take a few minutes to understand the fundamentals rather than make assumptions.

████
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
████
█████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████


████████████████████████▄▄▄█████▄▄▄██████████████████████████████████████████████
████▄█████▄█▄███▄█▄██████████▄██▀▀▀██████████████████████████████████████████████
████████▀████▄████▀██████████████████████████▄█████▄██▄█████▄████▄████▄████▄██
███████████▐█████▌███████████▄█████▀███▀▀████████▀▀▀▀█████▀▀▀██████▀▀███▀▀█████
████████▄████▀████▄██████████████████▄▄▄▄▄███▄▄▄▄█████▄▄▄██████████████████
██████████▀█▀███▀█▀██████████▀███████▀█████████▀█████▀██▀█████▀█████████████████
████████████████████████▀▀▀██████████████████████████████████████████████████████



█████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████████
████
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
████
.
█▀▀▀











█▄▄▄
.
WELCOME BONUS UP TO 7 BTC!
▀▀▀█











▄▄▄█
▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
.
▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
█▀▀▀▀▀











█▄▄▄▄▄
.
BET NOW
▀▀▀▀▀█











▄▄▄▄▄█
TaunSew
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 756
Merit: 506


View Profile
August 24, 2014, 12:38:11 AM
 #127

I wonder how much of Bitshares project is in line with BCNext's overall plan. This is from Part Two.  

"Regarding NXT as coins: NXTs are not coins... or at least the creator of Nxt didn't want them to be seen as coins. They are tokens that grant privileges for supporting Nxt.
Deflation is not much better than inflation. "Real" coins should be created on top of Nxt, and be issued in quantities that keep their value constant. BCNext understands that this is very arguable. The community should decide if it wants to follow the path showed by him, or stick to the Bitcoin legacy of an unchangeable supply of coins with which people hope to become rich by doing nothing."

See the full text here: http://wiki.nxtcrypto.org/wiki/BCNext%27s_Plan

Most people would take deflation over inflation.  Crypto Currencies only exist and have a following due to the stagflation we have seen since the 1960s (inflation + stagnating wage increases).

Why should any of us work our whole life and have little saved for retirement, because we were paying a 1%-6% "tax on the poor" (inflation) every year?  Inflation during the privatization of the former Soviet Union is what led to many pensioners to resort to eating dog food.  Much like every year it is becoming more difficult in the United States to feed a family due to stagflation and increasing CPI.

I think your concern is velocity but velocity doesn't matter unless crypto currencies hit $10+ trillion and it's just a single "one world currency" which replaces $Fiat.  Which I don't think it's possible as crypto currencies are currently very decentralized and plural (400+ alternates to Bitcoin).

Maybe someone like John Titor was correct in that monetary system of the future will be decentralized and crypto currencies is a good example of that.

There ain't no Revolution like a NEMolution.  The only solution is Bitcoin's dissolution! NEM!
nikola384
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 76
Merit: 10


View Profile
August 24, 2014, 01:22:16 AM
 #128

I wonder how much of Bitshares project is in line with BCNext's overall plan. This is from Part Two.  

"Regarding NXT as coins: NXTs are not coins... or at least the creator of Nxt didn't want them to be seen as coins. They are tokens that grant privileges for supporting Nxt.
Deflation is not much better than inflation. "Real" coins should be created on top of Nxt, and be issued in quantities that keep their value constant. BCNext understands that this is very arguable. The community should decide if it wants to follow the path showed by him, or stick to the Bitcoin legacy of an unchangeable supply of coins with which people hope to become rich by doing nothing."

See the full text here: http://wiki.nxtcrypto.org/wiki/BCNext%27s_Plan

Most people would take deflation over inflation.  Crypto Currencies only exist and have a following due to the stagflation we have seen since the 1960s (inflation + stagnating wage increases).

Why should any of us work our whole life and have little saved for retirement, because we were paying a 1%-6% "tax on the poor" (inflation) every year?  Inflation during the privatization of the former Soviet Union is what led to many pensioners to resort to eating dog food.  Much like every year it is becoming more difficult in the United States to feed a family due to stagflation and increasing CPI.

I think your concern is velocity but velocity doesn't matter unless crypto currencies hit $10+ trillion and it's just a single "one world currency" which replaces $Fiat.  Which I don't think it's possible as crypto currencies are currently very decentralized and plural (400+ alternates to Bitcoin).

Maybe someone like John Titor was correct in that monetary system of the future will be decentralized and crypto currencies is a good example of that.


And your point is Huh

TaunSew
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 756
Merit: 506


View Profile
August 24, 2014, 01:24:36 AM
Last edit: August 24, 2014, 01:36:56 AM by TaunSew
 #129

I wonder how much of Bitshares project is in line with BCNext's overall plan. This is from Part Two.  

"Regarding NXT as coins: NXTs are not coins... or at least the creator of Nxt didn't want them to be seen as coins. They are tokens that grant privileges for supporting Nxt.
Deflation is not much better than inflation. "Real" coins should be created on top of Nxt, and be issued in quantities that keep their value constant. BCNext understands that this is very arguable. The community should decide if it wants to follow the path showed by him, or stick to the Bitcoin legacy of an unchangeable supply of coins with which people hope to become rich by doing nothing."

See the full text here: http://wiki.nxtcrypto.org/wiki/BCNext%27s_Plan

Most people would take deflation over inflation.  Crypto Currencies only exist and have a following due to the stagflation we have seen since the 1960s (inflation + stagnating wage increases).

Why should any of us work our whole life and have little saved for retirement, because we were paying a 1%-6% "tax on the poor" (inflation) every year?  Inflation during the privatization of the former Soviet Union is what led to many pensioners to resort to eating dog food.  Much like every year it is becoming more difficult in the United States to feed a family due to stagflation and increasing CPI.

I think your concern is velocity but velocity doesn't matter unless crypto currencies hit $10+ trillion and it's just a single "one world currency" which replaces $Fiat.  Which I don't think it's possible as crypto currencies are currently very decentralized and plural (400+ alternates to Bitcoin).

Maybe someone like John Titor was correct in that monetary system of the future will be decentralized and crypto currencies is a good example of that.


And your point is Huh

And yours is?  He made a lame rhetorical message.  I can't write my own rhetorical posts?

Honestly who gives a chit about BCnext's "plan" (likely fiction written by others after he left) when his real plan ended up being fire sell $100K+ worth of NXT and fleeing into the night?   The reason he never came back was because he would be too embarrassed to admit having sold 1-2 months early (could had pocketed millions instead of six figures).



There ain't no Revolution like a NEMolution.  The only solution is Bitcoin's dissolution! NEM!
sparta_cuss
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 386
Merit: 250


View Profile
August 24, 2014, 01:37:45 AM
 #130


And yours is?  He made a lame rhetorical message.  I can't write my own rhetorical posts?

Honestly who gives a chit about BCnext's "plan" when his real plan ended up being fire sell $100K+ worth of NXT and fleeing into the night?  


What you call a "lame rhetorical message" is what many people call an example of an open, curious mind. I realize that forums are not good places for people to exchange ideas and try to learn. Most, it seems, assume that this is a debate, and one "earns points" by vanquishing an opponent in discursive combat. People become more entrenched in their own thinking, and gain the support of the echo chamber from whence they came. This is not my scene. Have fun.

"We must be willing to let go of the life we have planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us." - E.M. Forster
NXT: NXT-Z24T-YU6D-688W-EARDT
BTC: 19ULeXarogu2rT4dhJN9vhztaorqDC3U7s
nikola384
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 76
Merit: 10


View Profile
August 24, 2014, 01:47:04 AM
 #131


And yours is?  He made a lame rhetorical message.  I can't write my own rhetorical posts?

Honestly who gives a chit about BCnext's "plan" when his real plan ended up being fire sell $100K+ worth of NXT and fleeing into the night?  


What you call a "lame rhetorical point" is what many people call an example of an open, curious mind. I realize that forums are not good places for people to exchange ideas and try to learn. Most, it seems, assume that this is a debate, and one "earns points" by vanquishing an opponent in discursive combat. People become more entrenched in their own thinking, and gain the support of the echo chamber from whence they came. This is not my scene. Have fun.

You can find a few bad apples in every walk of life.
Do not leave, please!

Honestly, your post was one of the greatest things I read recently. Even though it is just - 'The Great Minds think alike!'

......

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

Mahatma Gandhi



tonyk
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 122
Merit: 100


View Profile
August 24, 2014, 05:20:58 AM
 #132


And yours is?  He made a lame rhetorical message.  I can't write my own rhetorical posts?

Honestly who gives a chit about BCnext's "plan" when his real plan ended up being fire sell $100K+ worth of NXT and fleeing into the night?  


What you call a "lame rhetorical point" is what many people call an example of an open, curious mind. I realize that forums are not good places for people to exchange ideas and try to learn. Most, it seems, assume that this is a debate, and one "earns points" by vanquishing an opponent in discursive combat. People become more entrenched in their own thinking, and gain the support of the echo chamber from whence they came. This is not my scene. Have fun.

You can find a few bad apples in every walk of life.
Do not leave, please!

Honestly, your post was one of the greatest things I read recently. Even though it is just - 'The Great Minds think alike!'

......

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

Mahatma Gandhi






I wonder how much of Bitshares project is in line with BCNext's overall plan. This is from Part Two. 

"Regarding NXT as coins: NXTs are not coins... or at least the creator of Nxt didn't want them to be seen as coins. They are tokens that grant privileges for supporting Nxt.
Deflation is not much better than inflation. "Real" coins should be created on top of Nxt, and be issued in quantities that keep their value constant. BCNext understands that this is very arguable. The community should decide if it wants to follow the path showed by him, or stick to the Bitcoin legacy of an unchangeable supply of coins with which people hope to become rich by doing nothing."

See the full text here: http://wiki.nxtcrypto.org/wiki/BCNext%27s_Plan

Sometimes I ask myself: 'Why do you still go back there?'

Posts like above, are the answer, for me personally...




bytemaster
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 770
Merit: 559

BitShares


View Profile WWW
August 24, 2014, 05:55:04 AM
 #133

Quote
The biggest problem here is that Average Joe (regarding financial instruments) does simply not understand what you mean by short, long, margin call, Nash equilibrium, contract of difference, peg, a short covers, settlement premium, etc. etc. and now we got Average Joe relying on somebody who, first, is able to understand all of that, AND second, is even able to change the bitUSD supply.


Those two observations lead to the question what is this bitUSD asset about and where is the difference to the current monetary system we have? Because as it seems (or at least the perception is) that financial investors, speculators and banksters are misusing the current system in order enrich themselves just because they can and understand the system; whereas Average Joe does not.


Am I correct that if bitUSD is really peggable by the USD, it would allow to build an economy around that cryptocurrency much faster than with Bitcoin or Nxt because merchants can be sure to have stable prices?

The average Joe isn't going to be able to understand the system any more than they understand the current banking system or even bitcoin.  At the end of the day most people have to watch it work and then learn to trust it.   While there is some value in trying to explain it to the average Joe in simple terms, much is lost in translation and that is really beyond the point of this particular thread.

I think that if someone wishes to "attack" the idea BitUSD but lacks the background to know the terms used, then they also lack the standing to publicly criticize and declare a scam, fraud, or broken system.   I do not like to hide behind fancy language and have taken great effort to explain it in simple terms in many places.   Unfortunately the simple explanations are never "complete, accurate, and authoritative".

The primary difference between BitUSD and the FED is that it is market driven and all IOUs are collateralized 200%.   In the case of the Fed they can print up $2 trillion dollars without having any collateral.  BTSX would require collateral worth $4 trillion dollars to exist.   The next difference is transparency.   Another difference is the complete lack of "price fixing".

















https://steemit.com  Blogging is the new Mining
sparta_cuss
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 386
Merit: 250


View Profile
August 24, 2014, 05:56:17 AM
 #134

Thank you for the support.

BCNext is a hell of a lot smarter than I am. His thoughts are worth considering because he has provided not just a cryptocurrency, but a way of thinking about how to create, through math, ways for people to interact. Based on what he wrote, he seems to have been interested in how Nxt could encourage social cohesion rather than selfish behavior. I am, of course, interested in whether he was "right," however we want to define right. But my first question is, What can we learn by taking his challenges and questions seriously? That is why returning to his three-part plan is worthwhile. It is an exercise, a heuristic, if nothing else.

It seems like Bitshares aims to satisfy one of BCNext's goals for Nxt: cooperation by algorithm and mutual interest. (I am not suggesting that Bitshares is copying BCNext, only that there is congruence between the two plans.) I understand that many disagree about whether this can work, but whether it does or does not, a deeper question is raised for me: If cooperation/mutual interest is enforced by the algorithm, is it really cooperation?

CfB wrote this, speaking for BCNext:
"Bitcoin relies only on math, but math can't solve problems arising because of the illogical nature of the man. Mining in Nxt relies on the cooperation of people, and even forces it. Without cooperation, Nxt becomes weak and can be easily attacked. It's like a system in unstable equilibrium. If people stop caring about cooperation, Nxt will fail very quickly."

Maybe enforced cooperation is the best we can do?

I realize that many of you will think that these are abstract, philosophical questions that have little place here. But I think that without these philosophical questions, without a sense for the good that any cryptocurrency can do and how it can do it, we are just creating a tool that can be used for good or evil. (Many in this thread already believe that Bitshares is a tool for evil, as you can see from the OP.) My point is, we must ask not only, "Does it work?" but "Is it good for the world?"

"We must be willing to let go of the life we have planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us." - E.M. Forster
NXT: NXT-Z24T-YU6D-688W-EARDT
BTC: 19ULeXarogu2rT4dhJN9vhztaorqDC3U7s
devphp
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 336
Merit: 250


View Profile
August 24, 2014, 01:12:12 PM
 #135

We need a BTSX/NXT trading pair. Let's petition exchanges. Whether you're a BTSX believer or NXT believer, why do you want to go to Bitcoin? If you want to invest in both, and want to reshuffle your investments between the two as prices fluctuate, there is even less reason to exchange to Bitcoin first.


There must be a BTSX<->NXT direct exchange!

If you disagree, you're an enemy of both BTSX and NXT.

Please petition Bter in their support thread:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=280806.0

And it happened, folks!

https://bter.com/trade/btsx_nxt

now we don't need to touch Bitcoin with a ten foot pole Grin
pythonista
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 35
Merit: 0


View Profile
August 25, 2014, 01:50:32 PM
 #136

Bytemaster is awesome - looking forward to BitUSD going live today  Smiley
anasazi
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 33
Merit: 0


View Profile
August 26, 2014, 07:45:23 AM
 #137

In case you haven't seen it already: http://prestonbyrne.com/2014/08/17/dont-walk-away-run/

What do you think?
testz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764
Merit: 1018


View Profile
August 26, 2014, 09:30:54 AM
 #138

In case you haven't seen it already: http://prestonbyrne.com/2014/08/17/dont-walk-away-run/

What do you think?

Check this one also: http://prestonbyrne.com/2014/08/24/what-goes-up/

            ▄▄████▄▄
        ▄▄██████████████▄▄
      ███████████████████████▄▄
      ▀▀█████████████████████████
██▄▄       ▀▀█████████████████████
██████▄▄        ▀█████████████████
███████████▄▄       ▀▀████████████
███████████████▄▄        ▀████████
████████████████████▄▄       ▀▀███
 ▀▀██████████████████████▄▄
     ▀▀██████████████████████▄▄
▄▄        ▀██████████████████████▄
████▄▄        ▀▀██████████████████
█████████▄▄        ▀▀█████████████
█████████████▄▄        ▀▀█████████
██████████████████▄▄        ▀▀████
▀██████████████████████▄▄
  ▀▀████████████████████████
      ▀▀█████████████████▀▀
           ▀▀███████▀▀



.SEMUX
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
  Semux uses .100% original codebase.
  Superfast with .30 seconds instant finality.
  Tested .5000 tx per block. on open network
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
testz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764
Merit: 1018


View Profile
August 26, 2014, 09:31:50 AM
 #139

Bytemaster is awesome - looking forward to BitUSD going live today  Smiley

Bter add the BitUSD/BTC pair https://bter.com/trade/bitusd_btc

            ▄▄████▄▄
        ▄▄██████████████▄▄
      ███████████████████████▄▄
      ▀▀█████████████████████████
██▄▄       ▀▀█████████████████████
██████▄▄        ▀█████████████████
███████████▄▄       ▀▀████████████
███████████████▄▄        ▀████████
████████████████████▄▄       ▀▀███
 ▀▀██████████████████████▄▄
     ▀▀██████████████████████▄▄
▄▄        ▀██████████████████████▄
████▄▄        ▀▀██████████████████
█████████▄▄        ▀▀█████████████
█████████████▄▄        ▀▀█████████
██████████████████▄▄        ▀▀████
▀██████████████████████▄▄
  ▀▀████████████████████████
      ▀▀█████████████████▀▀
           ▀▀███████▀▀



.SEMUX
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
  Semux uses .100% original codebase.
  Superfast with .30 seconds instant finality.
  Tested .5000 tx per block. on open network
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
NapoleonBonaparte
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 177
Merit: 100


View Profile
August 26, 2014, 09:42:19 AM
 #140

Bytemaster is awesome - looking forward to BitUSD going live today  Smiley

Bter add the BitUSD/BTC pair https://bter.com/trade/bitusd_btc

That was quick to be added on a reputable alt coin exchange.

Did Mintpal, Poloniex, Cryptsy addded the pair yet?
testz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764
Merit: 1018


View Profile
August 26, 2014, 10:47:49 AM
 #141

Bytemaster is awesome - looking forward to BitUSD going live today  Smiley

Bter add the BitUSD/BTC pair https://bter.com/trade/bitusd_btc

That was quick to be added on a reputable alt coin exchange.

Did Mintpal, Poloniex, Cryptsy addded the pair yet?

Not yet, Bter was first.
Next probably will be btc38 or poloniex, they already trade BitSharesX (BTSX), all rest should integrate BitSharesX first, it's not Bitcoin style coin and required additional work in order to integrate it to exchange (like Nxt or Monero for example)

            ▄▄████▄▄
        ▄▄██████████████▄▄
      ███████████████████████▄▄
      ▀▀█████████████████████████
██▄▄       ▀▀█████████████████████
██████▄▄        ▀█████████████████
███████████▄▄       ▀▀████████████
███████████████▄▄        ▀████████
████████████████████▄▄       ▀▀███
 ▀▀██████████████████████▄▄
     ▀▀██████████████████████▄▄
▄▄        ▀██████████████████████▄
████▄▄        ▀▀██████████████████
█████████▄▄        ▀▀█████████████
█████████████▄▄        ▀▀█████████
██████████████████▄▄        ▀▀████
▀██████████████████████▄▄
  ▀▀████████████████████████
      ▀▀█████████████████▀▀
           ▀▀███████▀▀



.SEMUX
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
  Semux uses .100% original codebase.
  Superfast with .30 seconds instant finality.
  Tested .5000 tx per block. on open network
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
█ █
dwdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 966
Merit: 1000


- - -Caveat Aleo- - -


View Profile
August 29, 2014, 07:07:40 PM
 #142


And yours is?  He made a lame rhetorical message.  I can't write my own rhetorical posts?

Honestly who gives a chit about BCnext's "plan" when his real plan ended up being fire sell $100K+ worth of NXT and fleeing into the night?  


What you call a "lame rhetorical point" is what many people call an example of an open, curious mind. I realize that forums are not good places for people to exchange ideas and try to learn. Most, it seems, assume that this is a debate, and one "earns points" by vanquishing an opponent in discursive combat. People become more entrenched in their own thinking, and gain the support of the echo chamber from whence they came. This is not my scene. Have fun.

You can find a few bad apples in every walk of life.
Do not leave, please!

Honestly, your post was one of the greatest things I read recently. Even though it is just - 'The Great Minds think alike!'

......

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

Mahatma Gandhi




Yes but sometimes it never makes it past phase 2.


ChuckOne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 364
Merit: 250

☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82


View Profile
August 29, 2014, 07:15:29 PM
 #143

The every increasing BitSharesX goes down. What does that mean for bitUSD?
brekyrself
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 547
Merit: 502


View Profile
August 29, 2014, 11:33:28 PM
 #144

The every increasing BitSharesX goes down. What does that mean for bitUSD?

Of course there was going to be a correction after that increase.  BitUSD will not be going anywhere and its nice they are collaborating with the user base about any changes and or new features.


https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=7843.0

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=7953.0
origin12
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 65
Merit: 10


View Profile
August 29, 2014, 11:48:19 PM
 #145

There is the following buy order on bter.


Price          Amount(BTC)      Total(BITUSD)

578.00000000      0.8650          499.9700


What does the 578.00000000 price refer to if someone is buying 499.9700 BITUSD for 0.8650 BTC?
From Above
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 686
Merit: 520



View Profile
August 29, 2014, 11:49:08 PM
 #146

There is the following buy order on bter.


Price          Amount(BTC)      Total(BITUSD)

578.00000000      0.8650          499.9700


What does the 578.00000000 price refer to if someone is buying 499.9700 BITUSD for 0.8650 BTC?

it means the bitcoin NSA illuminati will eat ur brain

~CfA~

SomethingElse
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 210
Merit: 100

Looking for the next big thing


View Profile
September 28, 2014, 11:03:52 AM
 #147

I have a hard time understanding this.  Bitshares wants me to give them my real USD for their bitUSD? 

How about they give me their real USD for some of my SomethingElseUSD?  I'll be more than happy to put it on an exchange and I promise I will always pay anyone back when they want.

Yes, I am trolling a bit here.  But I really don't get it.  What's the point?

NEM
nomoreheroes7
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 326
Merit: 250


King of all the land


View Profile
September 28, 2014, 12:57:30 PM
 #148

I have a hard time understanding this.  Bitshares wants me to give them my real USD for their bitUSD? 

How about they give me their real USD for some of my SomethingElseUSD?  I'll be more than happy to put it on an exchange and I promise I will always pay anyone back when they want.

Yes, I am trolling a bit here.  But I really don't get it.  What's the point?

BitUSD is pegged to the dollar. Means no volatility (other than USD inflation). It's only a matter of time that people wake up and realize the significant benefits of a cryptocurrency like BitUSD that has no volatility and thus doesn't need to be immediately dumped for fiat. All of this is done in the decentralized and free-market driven collateralized system that is BTSX. Incredible stuff, really.

But yea, investing in BitUSD now is more of a way to hedge against a possible short-term fall in BTSX price, due to the fact it's very young and therefore not widely adopted (yet). It's the future potential that is truly awe-inspiring. Plus, you earn interest on your BitUSD (or BitGLD, BitSLV, etc) estimated to be in the realm of 5-10%. Try doing that with a fiat CD in a centralized bank.  Wink
SomethingElse
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 210
Merit: 100

Looking for the next big thing


View Profile
September 28, 2014, 01:28:00 PM
 #149

I have a hard time understanding this.  Bitshares wants me to give them my real USD for their bitUSD? 

How about they give me their real USD for some of my SomethingElseUSD?  I'll be more than happy to put it on an exchange and I promise I will always pay anyone back when they want.

Yes, I am trolling a bit here.  But I really don't get it.  What's the point?

BitUSD is pegged to the dollar. Means no volatility (other than USD inflation). It's only a matter of time that people wake up and realize the significant benefits of a cryptocurrency like BitUSD that has no volatility and thus doesn't need to be immediately dumped for fiat. All of this is done in the decentralized and free-market driven collateralized system that is BTSX. Incredible stuff, really.

Please help me if I don't understand this right.  You are saying the goal of BitUSD is to create a crypto that is pegged to the dollar.  Then people can use that BitUSD and not have to worry about if it will go up or down?  Then my question is, who is minting all these bitUSDs? and when I give them my real dollar for their bitUSD, what are they doing with it? 


But yea, investing in BitUSD now is more of a way to hedge against a possible short-term fall in BTSX price, due to the fact it's very young and therefore not widely adopted (yet). It's the future potential that is truly awe-inspiring. Plus, you earn interest on your BitUSD (or BitGLD, BitSLV, etc) estimated to be in the realm of 5-10%. Try doing that with a fiat CD in a centralized bank.  Wink

Interest sounds good.  I like interest.  Sooooo... do I have to turn in real gold to get bitgold too?  And where does this interest magically appear from?  How can my rock of gold grow bigger, or my wad of cash get thicker.  Wouldn't for me to get richer, somebody else would have to be paying for it and they are getting poorer?  How would they feel about that? 

Again, a little bit of a troll, but still serious questions and I thank you for taking the time to answer my last ones.  I'm still trying to put this all together in my head.

NEM
robrigo
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 139
Merit: 100


View Profile
September 28, 2014, 03:30:22 PM
 #150

I have a hard time understanding this.  Bitshares wants me to give them my real USD for their bitUSD?  

How about they give me their real USD for some of my SomethingElseUSD?  I'll be more than happy to put it on an exchange and I promise I will always pay anyone back when they want.

Yes, I am trolling a bit here.  But I really don't get it.  What's the point?

BitUSD is pegged to the dollar. Means no volatility (other than USD inflation). It's only a matter of time that people wake up and realize the significant benefits of a cryptocurrency like BitUSD that has no volatility and thus doesn't need to be immediately dumped for fiat. All of this is done in the decentralized and free-market driven collateralized system that is BTSX. Incredible stuff, really.

Please help me if I don't understand this right.  You are saying the goal of BitUSD is to create a crypto that is pegged to the dollar.  Then people can use that BitUSD and not have to worry about if it will go up or down?  Then my question is, who is minting all these bitUSDs? and when I give them my real dollar for their bitUSD, what are they doing with it?  


But yea, investing in BitUSD now is more of a way to hedge against a possible short-term fall in BTSX price, due to the fact it's very young and therefore not widely adopted (yet). It's the future potential that is truly awe-inspiring. Plus, you earn interest on your BitUSD (or BitGLD, BitSLV, etc) estimated to be in the realm of 5-10%. Try doing that with a fiat CD in a centralized bank.  Wink

Interest sounds good.  I like interest.  Sooooo... do I have to turn in real gold to get bitgold too?  And where does this interest magically appear from?  How can my rock of gold grow bigger, or my wad of cash get thicker.  Wouldn't for me to get richer, somebody else would have to be paying for it and they are getting poorer?  How would they feel about that?  

Again, a little bit of a troll, but still serious questions and I thank you for taking the time to answer my last ones.  I'm still trying to put this all together in my head.

bitUSD doesn't function like an IOU; it is "minted" into existence by matching a short sell on the decentralized exchange built into the BitSharesX blockchain, the order of which puts up at least 2x the collateral in BTSX. Risk is assumed by the two voluntary parties involved in a matched order. Some tweaks to the market rules have been introduced recently to rank shorts by the amount of collateral put up, which will increase liquidity in the BitAsset markets. You can think of it as, 1 new bitUSD is minted by "locking up" more than the amount of BTSX equal to the value of 1 USD. Same deal with the other BitAssets. These are essentially financial instruments that correlate closely to the value of whatever a BitAsset is tracking.  Variable yield is paid out from a fund that receives value from accumulated market fees. There is more to it than that but rather than try to explain it all I will point you at some useful resources.

I'd suggest reading here for more detailed information about how the peg works:

Explanation of the market peg: http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Market_Peg
"The Market Peg Works": https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8358.0;topicseen
Discussion of yield (aka "interest"): https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8520.0
Discussion of new rules that order shorts by amount of collateral put up: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9029.0

Twitter: @robrig0

In Detroit? Want to learn more about BitShares? RSVP for the meetup! http://www.meetup.com/bitshares-worldwide/
SomethingElse
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 210
Merit: 100

Looking for the next big thing


View Profile
September 29, 2014, 03:58:52 AM
 #151


Thanks for the links and answering my questions despite my dryness.  

I read the link above and the first question that pops in my head is this.  What if I buy bitBTC with the price right now just being under $400, and next week Paypal and Amazon both announce full integration of Bitcoin coming 2015.  In one day the price of bitcoin jumps from $390 to just over $1100.  I see the bubble and want to cash out.  The person that minted the bitUSD put in 200% but now bitcoin has raised almost 300%.  Where does my extra money come from when I am cashing out?  

NEM
SomethingElse
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 210
Merit: 100

Looking for the next big thing


View Profile
September 29, 2014, 04:05:58 AM
 #152


bitUSD doesn't function like an IOU; it is "minted" into existence by matching a short sell on the decentralized exchange built into the BitSharesX blockchain, the order of which puts up at least 2x the collateral in BTSX. Risk is assumed by the two voluntary parties involved in a matched order. Some tweaks to the market rules have been introduced recently to rank shorts by the amount of collateral put up, which will increase liquidity in the BitAsset markets. You can think of it as, 1 new bitUSD is minted by "locking up" more than the amount of BTSX equal to the value of 1 USD. Same deal with the other BitAssets. These are essentially financial instruments that correlate closely to the value of whatever a BitAsset is tracking.  Variable yield is paid out from a fund that receives value from accumulated market fees. There is more to it than that but rather than try to explain it all I will point you at some useful resources.

I'd suggest reading here for more detailed information about how the peg works:

Explanation of the market peg: http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Market_Peg
"The Market Peg Works": https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8358.0;topicseen
Discussion of yield (aka "interest"): https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8520.0
Discussion of new rules that order shorts by amount of collateral put up: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9029.0

So the way I understand it is that BitsharesX is a coin which is basically like engine that bitSomething runs on.  I buy these BitsharesX and then I pick an asset I want to short.  Hopefully somebody will see my short and they will go long against me.  So basically the whole platform is just for people to bet long or short on any commodity.  But the commodity doesn't really exist.  If I own 1 barrel of bitOIL, that is not redeemable for for oil.  At best it is redeemable for BitsharesX.  Is that true?

NEM
brekyrself
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 547
Merit: 502


View Profile
September 29, 2014, 04:21:00 AM
 #153


bitUSD doesn't function like an IOU; it is "minted" into existence by matching a short sell on the decentralized exchange built into the BitSharesX blockchain, the order of which puts up at least 2x the collateral in BTSX. Risk is assumed by the two voluntary parties involved in a matched order. Some tweaks to the market rules have been introduced recently to rank shorts by the amount of collateral put up, which will increase liquidity in the BitAsset markets. You can think of it as, 1 new bitUSD is minted by "locking up" more than the amount of BTSX equal to the value of 1 USD. Same deal with the other BitAssets. These are essentially financial instruments that correlate closely to the value of whatever a BitAsset is tracking.  Variable yield is paid out from a fund that receives value from accumulated market fees. There is more to it than that but rather than try to explain it all I will point you at some useful resources.

I'd suggest reading here for more detailed information about how the peg works:

Explanation of the market peg: http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Market_Peg
"The Market Peg Works": https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8358.0;topicseen
Discussion of yield (aka "interest"): https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=8520.0
Discussion of new rules that order shorts by amount of collateral put up: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9029.0

So the way I understand it is that BitsharesX is a coin which is basically like engine that bitSomething runs on.  I buy these BitsharesX and then I pick an asset I want to short.  Hopefully somebody will see my short and they will go long against me.  So basically the whole platform is just for people to bet long or short on any commodity.  But the commodity doesn't really exist.  If I own 1 barrel of bitOIL, that is not redeemable for for oil.  At best it is redeemable for BitsharesX.  Is that true?

Yes and no.  At a high level these BitAssets can be traded directly on a centralized exchange such as Bter.  So BitUSD vs USD has its own market.  You are correct in that the pegs allow for traders to play the market without ever having to use a central exchange unless they want to cash out to their bank account.  Moving forward though if the pegs hold, businesses may be more inclined to accept BitUSD as the value always = 1 usd.  This gets rid of the volatility problem and could eliminate the need for businesses to use an intermediary such as BitPay.  Again thinking high level, think about the usage of BitUSD, BitEuro, Bitxyz currency, for an international corporation.  BitShares could provide a payment platform.
SomethingElse
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 210
Merit: 100

Looking for the next big thing


View Profile
September 29, 2014, 05:51:16 AM
 #154


Yes and no.  At a high level these BitAssets can be traded directly on a centralized exchange such as Bter.  So BitUSD vs USD has its own market.  You are correct in that the pegs allow for traders to play the market without ever having to use a central exchange unless they want to cash out to their bank account.  Moving forward though if the pegs hold, businesses may be more inclined to accept BitUSD as the value always = 1 usd.  This gets rid of the volatility problem and could eliminate the need for businesses to use an intermediary such as BitPay.  Again thinking high level, think about the usage of BitUSD, BitEuro, Bitxyz currency, for an international corporation.  BitShares could provide a payment platform.

Does it always equal the peg?  As far as I could read, it was just hoped for.  What if a big buyer has inside information and buys everything?  Or what of the opposite, what if a big holder sees the exit time and totally dumps? Are these possibilities?  

I am just wondering because telling people that $1 is supposed to be pegged to 1 bitUSD and then hoping they believe that declaration and act in accordance with that sounds a bit scary to me.  Because in the end 1 bitUSD is not $1.  It exists in a completely different system, with its own unique properties and rules, none of which are the same as a real dollar bill in my pocket, except for the fact that the issuer of the bitUSD is hoping for them to roughly be valued the same.  Other than they are hoped that the market will treat them as the same value, they are entirely two different things.  bitUSD might be worth more than a real dollar bill in my pocket because of its properties, or maybe less, but I doubt exactly the same.  It is hard for me to imagine that they would both be worth exactly the same all the time.  It seems like there would be quite a bit of volatility.  

NEM
SomethingElse
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 210
Merit: 100

Looking for the next big thing


View Profile
September 29, 2014, 06:03:06 AM
 #155


Thanks for the links and answering my questions despite my dryness.  

I read the link above and the first question that pops in my head is this.  What if I buy bitBTC with the price right now just being under $400, and next week Paypal and Amazon both announce full integration of Bitcoin coming 2015.  In one day the price of bitcoin jumps from $390 to just over $1100.  I see the bubble and want to cash out.  The person that minted the bitUSD put in 200% but now bitcoin has raised almost 300%.  Where does my extra money come from when I am cashing out?  

I want to bump this question.  One month ago I posted that Dogecoin was at its bottom and would only go up from there.  Now if BitsharesX had been around then I am guessing somebody could have issued bitDoge hoping to short Doge and since I thought it would go up, I could have bought and I could have gone in there and bought it all being very confident in my choice and having big pockets.  Now one month later, Doge is up four times.  I read the issuer to issue had to have double the value.  Assuming BitsharesX value stayed the same (it could actually move and make this scenerio worse I guess) and I want to cash out all my bitDoge, where does the extra money come from.  In the last month I have watched Doge sky rocket and now I think it is at its peak (which I really do) so I want to sell now.  So where is the surplus going to come from? 

NEM
BitcoinPopulation.com
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 8
Merit: 0


View Profile
September 29, 2014, 06:04:18 AM
 #156

Normally, the surplus should come from people on the other side of the trade. There needs to be someone providing liquidity on the other side.
SomethingElse
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 210
Merit: 100

Looking for the next big thing


View Profile
September 29, 2014, 06:52:20 AM
 #157

Normally, the surplus should come from people on the other side of the trade. There needs to be someone providing liquidity on the other side.

200% is a nice surplus, but we all know things in this world can be very volatile.  Some things can go up a lot more.  Doge isn't the only coin that went up over 200% in the last month.  http://www.coinfinance.com/gainers_losers/30_days

So again, if somebody issues bitDoge, they only paid 200% to issue that.  If I buy it all because I think the issuer is stupid, and I win, Doge goes up 259% and I want to cash out, where does my extra 59% come from?

NEM
beyondbitcoinshow
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 25
Merit: 0


View Profile
September 29, 2014, 11:15:25 AM
 #158



If you want to listen to this stuff talked about some.

https://soundcloud.com/beyond-bitcoin-hangouts/beyond-bitcoin-community-dev-hangout-2014-9-26

https://soundcloud.com/beyond-bitcoin-hangouts/bitshares-community-and-developer-hangout-9-12-2014

https://soundcloud.com/beyond-bitcoin-hangouts/bitshares-community-and-developer-hangout-9-5-2014

The first hour or so usually has the lead dev/founder of Bitshares ecosystem discussing Bitshares X.
CoinHoarder
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1456
Merit: 1025

In Cryptocoins I Trust


View Profile
September 29, 2014, 02:33:50 PM
Last edit: September 29, 2014, 06:44:05 PM by CoinHoarder
 #159

Normally, the surplus should come from people on the other side of the trade. There needs to be someone providing liquidity on the other side.

200% is a nice surplus, but we all know things in this world can be very volatile.  Some things can go up a lot more.  Doge isn't the only coin that went up over 200% in the last month.  http://www.coinfinance.com/gainers_losers/30_days

So again, if somebody issues bitDoge, they only paid 200% to issue that.  If I buy it all because I think the issuer is stupid, and I win, Doge goes up 259% and I want to cash out, where does my extra 59% come from?

Edit: My brain isn't working today. Sad
SomethingElse
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 210
Merit: 100

Looking for the next big thing


View Profile
September 29, 2014, 03:04:46 PM
 #160

Thank you for answering CoinHoarder.  So it makes sense that if a coin changes so much that an automatic margin call kicks in. 

So the way I understand Bitshares is it is a way for a person to put up money betting on a short, and then others can accept on the other position and try to go long. 

NEM
CoinHoarder
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1456
Merit: 1025

In Cryptocoins I Trust


View Profile
September 29, 2014, 03:22:29 PM
Last edit: September 29, 2014, 03:42:26 PM by CoinHoarder
 #161

Thank you for answering CoinHoarder.  So it makes sense that if a coin changes so much that an automatic margin call kicks in.  

So the way I understand Bitshares is it is a way for a person to put up money betting on a short, and then others can accept on the other position and try to go long.  

Yes, but the whole system in its entirety has many benefits rather than just speculating on price movements.

Of course it allows people to make money by going short or long by speculating what the price of an asset and collateral will do.

bitFIAT is a good hedge against crypto bubbles.

It allows people to day trade or diversify their portfolio with cryptocoins, FIAT, stock, and commodities (gold, silver, oil, wheat, corn, etc) with no counterparty risk due to trusted third parties (centralized exchanges).

It allows someone that likes the idea of decentralized cryptocurrencies but doesn't like the volatility of them to still use them by storing their cryptocurrency in a more stable asset (bitFIAT).

It allows Bitassets to gain interest from trading fees.

It allows BTSX stake holders to earn dividends by the destruction of transaction fees. No more BTSX will be printed, so by destroying transaction fees it makes the cryptocurrency deflationary. It is one of the only cryptocoins that is truly deflationary, as Bitcoin/etc is still in its inflationary stage and once all Bitcoin's are mined the transaction fees are paid to miners and not destroyed.

You can hold your Bitcoins (or other slower cryptocoins) in bitBTC, earn interest, and have the benefits of an average of 5 second confirmation times that have more security of a 10 minute Bitcoin confirmation. DPoS is a fast and efficient consensus algorithm with 10 second block times which is convenient. Admittedly the infrastructure and payment processors aren't there yet... but this is a future benefit of the system and you can already do this with person to person transactions.

Hmm.. I'm probably forgetting something.
krach
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1853
Merit: 1008


Get Rekt


View Profile WWW
September 29, 2014, 06:59:18 PM
 #162

Quote
You can hold your Bitcoins (or other slower cryptocoins) in bitBTC
But you can not "cash out" into bitcoin or any other cryptocoins, only into bitsharesX, right herr delegate?

[color=#00██ ████ ████



▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄
█  ▄▀▄             █▀▀▐▀▄▄
█  █▀█             █  ▐  ▐▌
█       ▄██▄       █  ▌  █
█     ▄██████▄     █  ▌ ▐▌
█    ██████████    █ ▐  █
█   ▐██████████▌   █ ▐ ▐▌
█    ▀▀██████▀▀    █ ▌ █
█     ▄▄▄██▄▄▄     █ ▌▐▌
█                  █▐ █
█                  █▐▐▌
█                  █▐█
▀▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▀█

▄▄█████████▄▄
▄█▀▀▀█████████▀▀▀█▄
▄█▀    ▄▀█████▀     ▀█▄
▄█▄    █        ▀▄   ███▄
▄████▀▀▀▀▄       ▄▀▀▀▀▀███▄
████      ▀▄▄▄▄▄▀       ███
███     ▄▄███████▄▄     ▄▀█
█  ▀▄ ▄▀ ▀███████▀ ▀▄ ▄▀  █
▀█   █     ▀███▀     ▀▄  █▀
▀█▄▄█▄      █        █▄█▀
▀█████▄ ▄▀▀ ▀▀▄▄ ▄▄███▀
▀█████        ████▀
▀▀█▄▄▄▄▄▄▄█▀▀



● OVER 1000000000 REKT PLEBS
● DAILY PARLAYS, ACCAS, SINGLES AND BOASTING
● BONUS HUNTING & VIP PICKS
● 24/7 LIVE TROLL BOX
● SCAM TOUTS ROASTED LIVE
 
CoinHoarder
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1456
Merit: 1025

In Cryptocoins I Trust


View Profile
September 29, 2014, 07:44:32 PM
 #163

Quote
You can hold your Bitcoins (or other slower cryptocoins) in bitBTC
But you can not "cash out" into bitcoin or any other cryptocoins, only into bitsharesX, right herr delegate?

Why would you want to? Most people buy Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies as a speculative investment, not to go on a shopping spree. bitBTC and Bitassets are a better tool for speculative investments than the actual assets themselves. BTSX can give you leverage if you are bullish by shorting and less exposure when you are bearish by moving into bitFIAT, all without the need for trusted third parties. It is good for day traders as there is less Counterparty risk than you would have at a centralized exchange, and the Bitassets accrue interest which is good for both day traders and hodlers a like. It is also good for diversifying into hard metals and other commodities.

The infrastructure will be developed to allow you to use Bitassets more like a currency if you wanted by using multi coin payment gateways, currency exchanges, and multi coin payment processors. The point is that you don't need to deal with trusted third parties unless you want to buy something, use a service, or cash out into FIAT. Again, most people currently use cryptocurrencies as a speculative investment and BitsharesX does that better than other cryptocurrencies for the multiple reasons stated above. As for spending them, the infrastructure will get there in due time... the Bitcoin infrastructure wasn't built in a day.
krach
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1853
Merit: 1008


Get Rekt


View Profile WWW
September 29, 2014, 09:29:37 PM
 #164

Quote
Insert Quote
Quote from: krach on Today at 06:59:18 PM
Quote
You can hold your Bitcoins (or other slower cryptocoins) in bitBTC
But you can not "cash out" into bitcoin or any other cryptocoins, only into bitsharesX, right herr delegate?

Why would you want to? Most people buy Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies as a speculative investment, not to go on a shopping spree. bitBTC and Bitassets are a better tool for speculative investments than the actual assets themselves. BTSX can give you leverage if you are bullish by shorting and less exposure when you are bearish by moving into bitFIAT, all without the need for trusted third parties. It is good for day traders as there is less Counterparty risk than you would have at a centralized exchange, and the Bitassets accrue interest which is good for both day traders and hodlers a like. It is also good for diversifying into hard metals and other commodities.

The infrastructure will be developed to allow you to use Bitassets more like a currency if you wanted by using multi coin payment gateways, currency exchanges, and multi coin payment processors. The point is that you don't need to deal with trusted third parties unless you want to buy something, use a service, or cash out into FIAT. Again, most people currently use cryptocurrencies as a speculative investment and BitsharesX does that better than other cryptocurrencies for the multiple reasons stated above. As for spending them, the infrastructure will get there in due time... the Bitcoin infrastructure wasn't built in a day.

Hi,
Well I asked a real simple question to clear a few things up, guess delegates have issues with that. First the delgate said
Quote
You can hold your Bitcoins (or other slower cryptocoins) in bitBTC

Well no you cant. You are not holding any bitcoin, litecoin, doge, botsharesX or any other cryptocoin. It may be the value of that coin in bitsharesX but it is not that coin, therefore you are not "holding" it. This language is misleading.
Again, you can not cash out into USD, Bitcoin, Litecoin, Gold, Silver or anything else, only the value of that asset in bitsharesX.
If someone wants to or not is a different discussion.

Quote
bitBTC and Bitassets are a better tool for speculative investments than the actual assets themselve

Thanks for your opinon. Since you are delegate I would asume that you think bitshare anything is better than anything and can emulate anything.

Another thanks for explaining that you can go short and long ect, there are plenty of places where you can already do that, no it is not in the bitshares system and yes there is counterparty risk. The main thing is that you never ever ever mention the word risk when speaking of bitsharesX and oh yes there is some, of course you will say it is less, as expected.

Quote
It is also good for diversifying into hard metals and other commodities.
I strongly disagree, if you want to have metals, get physical metal. While you are at it if you want bitcoin then just get some bitcoin.
Quote
The point is that you don't need to deal with trusted third parties unless you want to buy something, use a service, or cash out into FIAT.
Yep


Again, there is no "holding"
bitcoin, gold, silver ,litecoin ,doge or anything else, it is only "held up" by the same value of bitsharesX and there is zero possiblity of getting the "asset" after the bit, "bitGOLD"=no gold "bitBitcoin" =no bitcoin

Yes you can speculate with it, and the whole system could colapse as a house of cards, other systems can too, but if you make extraordinary claims "ft.knox""bitcoin killer" etal then expect extraordinary debunking.


[color=#00██ ████ ████



▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄
█  ▄▀▄             █▀▀▐▀▄▄
█  █▀█             █  ▐  ▐▌
█       ▄██▄       █  ▌  █
█     ▄██████▄     █  ▌ ▐▌
█    ██████████    █ ▐  █
█   ▐██████████▌   █ ▐ ▐▌
█    ▀▀██████▀▀    █ ▌ █
█     ▄▄▄██▄▄▄     █ ▌▐▌
█                  █▐ █
█                  █▐▐▌
█                  █▐█
▀▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▀█

▄▄█████████▄▄
▄█▀▀▀█████████▀▀▀█▄
▄█▀    ▄▀█████▀     ▀█▄
▄█▄    █        ▀▄   ███▄
▄████▀▀▀▀▄       ▄▀▀▀▀▀███▄
████      ▀▄▄▄▄▄▀       ███
███     ▄▄███████▄▄     ▄▀█
█  ▀▄ ▄▀ ▀███████▀ ▀▄ ▄▀  █
▀█   █     ▀███▀     ▀▄  █▀
▀█▄▄█▄      █        █▄█▀
▀█████▄ ▄▀▀ ▀▀▄▄ ▄▄███▀
▀█████        ████▀
▀▀█▄▄▄▄▄▄▄█▀▀



● OVER 1000000000 REKT PLEBS
● DAILY PARLAYS, ACCAS, SINGLES AND BOASTING
● BONUS HUNTING & VIP PICKS
● 24/7 LIVE TROLL BOX
● SCAM TOUTS ROASTED LIVE
 
SlyWax
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 248
Merit: 251



View Profile
September 29, 2014, 10:48:16 PM
Last edit: September 29, 2014, 11:54:36 PM by SlyWax
 #165


Again, you can not cash out into USD, Bitcoin, Litecoin, Gold, Silver or anything else, only the value of that asset in bitsharesX.
If someone wants to or not is a different discussion.

If you want to cash out BitUSD to USD, you send your BitUSD to an exchange and you trade it for USD (witch should be around 1:1 when there will be liquidity).

But before that, you could have traded the BTSX/BitUSD or BitBTC/BitUSD pair multiple times with almost 0 fee, and with no "mtGox"(exchange bankrupt) risk. You still have the risk of the Bitshare network going down, but that's unlikely since it's decentralized. You have also the risk of the peg not holding, but that risk will fade when the liquidity will go up.
krach
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1853
Merit: 1008


Get Rekt


View Profile WWW
September 29, 2014, 11:17:53 PM
 #166

Quote
If you want to cash out BitUSD to USD, you send your BitUSD to an exchange and you trade it for USD (witch should be around 1:1 when there will be liquidity).

But before that, you could have traded the BTSX/BitUSD or BitBTC/BitUSD pair multiple times with almost 0 fee, and with no "mtGox"(exchange bankrupt) risk. You still have the risk of the Bitshare network going down, but that's unlikely since it's decentralized. You have also the risk of the peg not olding, but that risk will fade when the liquidity will go up.

Yes just as you do with bitcoin when you want USD, except Bitcoin doesnt have  the three letters USD next to it. All the other trading back and forth has nothing to do with it.

bitsharesX goes down a lot in value, could be hard to "cash out". If you want to cash out BitBitcoin, BitGold,BitBitbitbit, Bitcorn or BitWater then you would have to "cash out" to bitsharesX not bitUSD but you could cash out to bisharesX and then buy some bitusd and then cash out at a third party as with any other crypto.

[color=#00██ ████ ████



▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄
█  ▄▀▄             █▀▀▐▀▄▄
█  █▀█             █  ▐  ▐▌
█       ▄██▄       █  ▌  █
█     ▄██████▄     █  ▌ ▐▌
█    ██████████    █ ▐  █
█   ▐██████████▌   █ ▐ ▐▌
█    ▀▀██████▀▀    █ ▌ █
█     ▄▄▄██▄▄▄     █ ▌▐▌
█                  █▐ █
█                  █▐▐▌
█                  █▐█
▀▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▀█

▄▄█████████▄▄
▄█▀▀▀█████████▀▀▀█▄
▄█▀    ▄▀█████▀     ▀█▄
▄█▄    █        ▀▄   ███▄
▄████▀▀▀▀▄       ▄▀▀▀▀▀███▄
████      ▀▄▄▄▄▄▀       ███
███     ▄▄███████▄▄     ▄▀█
█  ▀▄ ▄▀ ▀███████▀ ▀▄ ▄▀  █
▀█   █     ▀███▀     ▀▄  █▀
▀█▄▄█▄      █        █▄█▀
▀█████▄ ▄▀▀ ▀▀▄▄ ▄▄███▀
▀█████        ████▀
▀▀█▄▄▄▄▄▄▄█▀▀



● OVER 1000000000 REKT PLEBS
● DAILY PARLAYS, ACCAS, SINGLES AND BOASTING
● BONUS HUNTING & VIP PICKS
● 24/7 LIVE TROLL BOX
● SCAM TOUTS ROASTED LIVE
 
brekyrself
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 547
Merit: 502


View Profile
September 29, 2014, 11:23:48 PM
 #167

Quote
If you want to cash out BitUSD to USD, you send your BitUSD to an exchange and you trade it for USD (witch should be around 1:1 when there will be liquidity).

But before that, you could have traded the BTSX/BitUSD or BitBTC/BitUSD pair multiple times with almost 0 fee, and with no "mtGox"(exchange bankrupt) risk. You still have the risk of the Bitshare network going down, but that's unlikely since it's decentralized. You have also the risk of the peg not olding, but that risk will fade when the liquidity will go up.

Yes just as you do with bitcoin when you want USD, except Bitcoin doesnt have  the three letters USD next to it. All the other trading back and forth has nothing to do with it.

bitsharesX goes down a lot in value, could be hard to "cash out". If you want to cash out BitBitcoin, BitGold,BitBitbitbit, Bitcorn or BitWater then you would have to "cash out" to bitsharesX not bitUSD but you could cash out to bisharesX and then buy some bitusd and then cash out at a third party as with any other crypto.


It's simply too early to tell if a supporting infrastructure will be built around BTSX such has been about BTC.  IF the pegs hold, software matures, the infrastructure could be built and support exactly what your looking for.  Only time will tell and we should be happy people are pushing the Bitcoin ideology to the next level.
SlyWax
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 248
Merit: 251



View Profile
September 29, 2014, 11:50:22 PM
 #168

Quote
If you want to cash out BitUSD to USD, you send your BitUSD to an exchange and you trade it for USD (witch should be around 1:1 when there will be liquidity).

But before that, you could have traded the BTSX/BitUSD or BitBTC/BitUSD pair multiple times with almost 0 fee, and with no "mtGox"(exchange bankrupt) risk. You still have the risk of the Bitshare network going down, but that's unlikely since it's decentralized. You have also the risk of the peg not holding, but that risk will fade when the liquidity will go up.

Yes just as you do with bitcoin when you want USD, except Bitcoin doesnt have  the three letters USD next to it. All the other trading back and forth has nothing to do with it.

bitsharesX goes down a lot in value, could be hard to "cash out". If you want to cash out BitBitcoin, BitGold,BitBitbitbit, Bitcorn or BitWater then you would have to "cash out" to bitsharesX not bitUSD but you could cash out to bisharesX and then buy some bitusd and then cash out at a third party as with any other crypto.


You did'nt get it, BTSX is like Bitcoin as a currency it fluctuate in value against the dollar with great volatility,
whereas BitUSD just oscillate around the 1 BitUSD = 1 USD peg.
And it's already pretty flat : https://bter.com/trade/bitusd_usd even with no volume.

PS : As a side note, you should learn how to quote since you are a senior member. Wink
krach
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1853
Merit: 1008


Get Rekt


View Profile WWW
September 30, 2014, 12:31:50 AM
 #169

Quote
You did'nt get it, BTSX is like Bitcoin as a currency it fluctuate in value against the dollar with great volatility,
whereas BitUSD just oscillate around the 1 BitUSD = 1 USD peg.
And it's already pretty flat : https://bter.com/trade/bitusd_usd even with no volume.

PS : As a side note, you should learn how to quote since you are a senior member. Wink

No, I get it, however if you cash out "BITGOLD" then it is backed by bitsharesX and not bitusd, or am I wrong?
And bitUSD is backed by ............. BitsharesX

[color=#00██ ████ ████



▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄
█  ▄▀▄             █▀▀▐▀▄▄
█  █▀█             █  ▐  ▐▌
█       ▄██▄       █  ▌  █
█     ▄██████▄     █  ▌ ▐▌
█    ██████████    █ ▐  █
█   ▐██████████▌   █ ▐ ▐▌
█    ▀▀██████▀▀    █ ▌ █
█     ▄▄▄██▄▄▄     █ ▌▐▌
█                  █▐ █
█                  █▐▐▌
█                  █▐█
▀▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▀█

▄▄█████████▄▄
▄█▀▀▀█████████▀▀▀█▄
▄█▀    ▄▀█████▀     ▀█▄
▄█▄    █        ▀▄   ███▄
▄████▀▀▀▀▄       ▄▀▀▀▀▀███▄
████      ▀▄▄▄▄▄▀       ███
███     ▄▄███████▄▄     ▄▀█
█  ▀▄ ▄▀ ▀███████▀ ▀▄ ▄▀  █
▀█   █     ▀███▀     ▀▄  █▀
▀█▄▄█▄      █        █▄█▀
▀█████▄ ▄▀▀ ▀▀▄▄ ▄▄███▀
▀█████        ████▀
▀▀█▄▄▄▄▄▄▄█▀▀



● OVER 1000000000 REKT PLEBS
● DAILY PARLAYS, ACCAS, SINGLES AND BOASTING
● BONUS HUNTING & VIP PICKS
● 24/7 LIVE TROLL BOX
● SCAM TOUTS ROASTED LIVE
 
sportscliche
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56
Merit: 0


View Profile
September 30, 2014, 12:41:43 AM