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Author Topic: Shakaru Class Action  (Read 8466 times)
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April 04, 2012, 08:29:22 PM
 #41

   Bitcoin is an alt currency/community experiment. It is the Wild Wild West of a community currency without boarders. There are the traditional ways of dealing with these imperfections and there will be new ways of dealing with them. If the BitCoin is considered just a currency pegged to a traditional fiat, then relying on the traditional systems will work (and not work).

Freeway,

   There is a reason Business usually pays out 10 - 25 K with minimal interrogatories. Because it is cheaper to pay the litigant than it is your lawyer. If you want a class action against shakaru and evidence including linking the chain transactions, I am sure someone will take you up on it. Or try at least. But, it will cost you a fortune.

This is a new world or old world in finance. The community pretty much relies on letters in a nick, post counts, past deals with other pseudo anonymous nicks, and emailed proof of identity. To me shakaru is just letters in a nick name on a internet forum.

  So, how does one deal with that with any confidence? I would suggest making use of the gpg nicknames to at least ensure that you are dealing with the same person to a reasonable standard. Then that begs to question, why would anyone lend money (BTC) to nothing except a nick name?  Well the reasonable wouldn't. However, if the bar to entry in these transactions is significant, it is entirely possible that it could work. i.e. A credit system that starts at 0 and with time and good history opens up a more traditional system of loaning. However, emphasis must be put on this reputation so it is so hard to gain that one fears losing it. The <nick> essentially must become an alter ego to the person that the person who owns it respects and fears losing its reputation. In essence, you are dealing with just the <nick> and not the alter ego person.

 Of course, there is a meeting of these two spheres because of the need for traditional fiat currencies. At a point, these spheres must touch so there is a mixture of real world systems and virtual systems. The intersection of these spheres is sometimes hard to define. vampire is in one sphere and uses traditional systems for arguments. He seems to me wouldn't invest in shakaru; he would invest in shakaru's real company. This can be done by looking up companies on the various Secretary of State office in our country and their counter parts in other countries. GLBSE and certain threads here are investing in the virtual sphere, relying on <nicks> and promises.

   I am for the creation of the new system. It opens up a world of business denied to millions of people. Why should only the big and powerful get to take advantage of 'loop' holes? If GE and big companies are allowed to do Double Irish and Dutch Sandwiches, why shouldn't you be able to do so also? Typically governments being lobbied by big companies will put pressure on up and coming companies to prevent them from taking a market share. See this is where something went wrong. Build a better 'mouse trap' today and you either get sued, fined, taken over, or imprisoned. Or, you cave to venture capitalist and sell out. Small Businesses here are in a decline and new creation is down. This isn't because that people don't want to try. It is because they fear trying.

  Freeway, you and others have become a failed leg in this experiment. Good will come out of it, hopefully. I've seen the tendency to fall back on traditional systems. But, IMO, you yourself know this won't work. Why?, because if you were going to sue IRL, you wouldn't be here pleading for help. Your lawyer, might be.

In my opinion, this can be turned into something good. A credit system that has a high bar for entry and relies on a system of gpg <nick> identity can be formed. Others are working on a credit system and I am dabbling in one. My system is harsh tho. One failure to pay will significantly hurt the <nick>. This will be an affront to traditional methods of finance and governments. Expect, resistance from 'them.'  They all want to know 'who' and 'where', but in reality it doesn't matter as long as the bills get paid.  When I take $5 out of my bank, I don't tell the teller that I am going to buy a 'Big Mac.'  

I am sorry for yours and others loss here and that I have co-opted your thread for my rant but something here tweaked an interest.

I am however, surprised that shakaru hasn't received some type of 'Tag', maybe not the 'Scammer Tag' but maybe a Defaulter Tag, or something appropriate.

Good Luck,

tl;de      hmm.. does 'to long';'didn't edit' exist?


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April 04, 2012, 08:38:24 PM
 #42

No dog in this fight, but a small suggestion for the combatants, if I may? Invest the time to study up on a class action, the chances of this issue being certified as a class are slim and none, and slim is on his way out of town. You don't need to convince a tech-aware lawyer friend, you need to compel a Judge to certify the class. Which isn't going to happen. And even if you do, all that will ever end up happening, years or decades from now, is that you may get a judgement against shakuru that will give the lion's share of any settlement to the lawyers involved. And if just one creditor chooses to insert their own lawyer into the process, they double their take, and your lawyer gets half, which makes this precedent-setting opportunity that much less palatable. Especially given that the prime candidate for Lead Plaintiff in the Class is someone who is not seeing eye to eye with the proposal right now.

Then, settlement in hand, you march down to the Sheriff and demand satisfaction... what are you going to get? Some used cables and power supplies? Shakuru appears to have essentially nothing left. In fact for under a thousand bucks he could own the majority of the debt and kill the Class by himself without lifting a finger, just objecting to the certification. And what is your case predicated upon? Ah, yes, bitcoins! A non-tangible asset, with no physical measure of value other than a perceived value based on anonymous transactions and "hashing". Is there a contract to enforce? Is there something that a judge could look at, or a jury could consider? The rent issue probably has merit, but won't get you a class action going, in California $7,000 worth of debt is actually a small claims court action. And small claims won't let you aggregate these claims into a class.

Sucks to be ripped off, especially by someone you consider a friend. Even worse when that friend violated the trust and the friendship of a community like this one. But other than branding the scammer with a richly deserved scammer tag, there is essentially nothing that can be done in a court of law to compel re-payment of debt of this type. Having your Uncle Vinny pay him a visit and suggesting a re-payment schedule that will keep all limbs intact and functioning? Maybe. Asking the courts of California to toss this miscreant into debtors prison and seize his car, strip him naked and set him at hard labor? Unfortunately not going to happen.

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April 04, 2012, 08:45:00 PM
 #43

With that in mind, who's up for paying uncle Vin to go work him over? Could even make it a share on GLBSE Tongue

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April 04, 2012, 08:45:09 PM
 #44

Loup why inject facts into a very good rant.

My take.  Creditors likely are getting next to nothing anyways.  Getting lawyers involved all but guarantees creditors will get less than nothing (pay out more in lawyer fees than is ever recovered).  Can't get blood from a stone folks.   Granted I haven't followed this "saga" closely but my understanding is Shakaru has no stable high income employment, no assets, no real estate, is behind on rent, lives (or lived) in a self described slum, etc.

I mean where do you think these tens of thousands of dollars are going to come from?  Forced human organ donation?
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April 04, 2012, 08:58:03 PM
 #45

Having your Uncle Vinny pay him a visit and suggesting a re-payment schedule that will keep all limbs intact and functioning? Maybe.

Here here!!   


Edit: lol

or

Hear hear!!
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April 04, 2012, 08:58:58 PM
 #46

Having your Uncle Vinny pay him a visit and suggesting a re-payment schedule that will keep all limbs intact and functioning? Maybe.

Here here!!
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April 04, 2012, 09:00:06 PM
 #47

The uncle Vin option would be a lot cheaper, while providing some level of satisfaction, could we get him (uncle vin) to take a few pics?

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April 04, 2012, 09:13:07 PM
 #48

I too think this is a fairly hopeless exercise, except for the principle of it. But it'll be an expensive principle to pursue, and I doubt most people will want to.

I'd prefer it if the Uncle Vinny suggestions were left off the thread, though. I know people are joking, but suggestions of physical violence (or harassment) just lower the level of discussion, and give detractors more shit to be taken out of context about the "lawless" bitcoin community.
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April 04, 2012, 09:45:10 PM
 #49

I'd prefer it if the Uncle Vinny suggestions were left off the thread, though. I know people are joking, but

This was a joke?

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April 04, 2012, 10:01:04 PM
 #50

I'd prefer it if the Uncle Vinny suggestions were left off the thread, though. I know people are joking, but
This was a joke?
I hope so.

Go Uncle Vinny! Vinny 2012!
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April 04, 2012, 10:06:46 PM
 #51

Quote
Can't get blood from a stone folks

Ah, but you can get blood from a turnip - just insert the proper gene sequences into the turnip DNA (was the subject of my final paper in my intro to genetic engineering class in colllege).

Our family was terrorized by Homeland Security.  Read all about it here:  http://www.jmwagner.com/ and http://www.burtw.com/  Any donations to help us recover from the $300,000 in legal fees and forced donations to the Federal Asset Forfeiture slush fund are greatly appreciated!
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April 05, 2012, 01:41:17 AM
 #52

I'd prefer it if the Uncle Vinny suggestions were left off the thread, though. I know people are joking, but

This was a joke?

If not, the moderators don't take kindly to exhortations to violence on the forums.
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April 05, 2012, 01:58:09 AM
 #53

I'd prefer it if the Uncle Vinny suggestions were left off the thread, though. I know people are joking, but

This was a joke?

If not, the moderators don't take kindly to exhortations to violence on the forums.

Omigod! If we cannot call out to the satirical spirit of our pretend Uncle Vinny to handle issues when we (as a community, not "we" as in trying to include myself in this group of rightfully pissed off creditors...) when we have gone and given many thousands of dollars worth of value to a cheat, and PRETEND that we might have somebody actually threaten to break somebody's limbs over that debt, then I fear, dear friends, that this bus has taken a very, very wrong turn into Politically Correct Land.

If the Moderators ever have reason to not take kindly to any of my exhortations, those advocating fantasy Cosa Nostra violence, encouraging euthanasia of the intellectually challenged, stout caning of scammers, and supporting ferret cage match death sport... well, the Moderators know how to contact me and correct me. I suspect those self-same Moderati understand that my next thrust of the tongue-in-cheek rapier will be visited upon them.

This thing that Shakuru has done sucks hugely. That goes without saying. Some of the hyperbole surrounding it is over the top, but not unjustified. I merely rise to the occasion to cast a little light on the proposed class action suit as resolution concept. It ain't gonna work.

'Nuff said.

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April 05, 2012, 02:13:47 AM
 #54

I'd prefer it if the Uncle Vinny suggestions were left off the thread, though. I know people are joking, but

This was a joke?

If not, the moderators don't take kindly to exhortations to violence on the forums.

Omigod! If we cannot call out to the satirical spirit of our pretend Uncle Vinny to handle issues when we (as a community, not "we" as in trying to include myself in this group of rightfully pissed off creditors...) when we have gone and given many thousands of dollars worth of value to a cheat, and PRETEND that we might have somebody actually threaten to break somebody's limbs over that debt, then I fear, dear friends, that this bus has taken a very, very wrong turn into Politically Correct Land.

If the Moderators ever have reason to not take kindly to any of my exhortations, those advocating fantasy Cosa Nostra violence, encouraging euthanasia of the intellectually challenged, stout caning of scammers, and supporting ferret cage match death sport... well, the Moderators know how to contact me and correct me. I suspect those self-same Moderati understand that my next thrust of the tongue-in-cheek rapier will be visited upon them.

This thing that Shakuru has done sucks hugely. That goes without saying. Some of the hyperbole surrounding it is over the top, but not unjustified. I merely rise to the occasion to cast a little light on the proposed class action suit as resolution concept. It ain't gonna work.

'Nuff said.


You thrust your knowledge of the vernacular around like a champ. Do you offer lessons?




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April 05, 2012, 02:17:01 AM
 #55


herp derp


You thrust your knowledge of the vernacular around like a champ. Do you offer lessons?




Smiley

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April 05, 2012, 02:25:44 AM
 #56

I'd prefer it if the Uncle Vinny suggestions were left off the thread, though. I know people are joking, but

This was a joke?

If not, the moderators don't take kindly to exhortations to violence on the forums.

Omigod! If we cannot call out to the satirical spirit of our pretend Uncle Vinny to handle issues when we (as a community, not "we" as in trying to include myself in this group of rightfully pissed off creditors...) when we have gone and given many thousands of dollars worth of value to a cheat, and PRETEND that we might have somebody actually threaten to break somebody's limbs over that debt, then I fear, dear friends, that this bus has taken a very, very wrong turn into Politically Correct Land.

If the Moderators ever have reason to not take kindly to any of my exhortations, those advocating fantasy Cosa Nostra violence, encouraging euthanasia of the intellectually challenged, stout caning of scammers, and supporting ferret cage match death sport... well, the Moderators know how to contact me and correct me. I suspect those self-same Moderati understand that my next thrust of the tongue-in-cheek rapier will be visited upon them.

This thing that Shakuru has done sucks hugely. That goes without saying. Some of the hyperbole surrounding it is over the top, but not unjustified. I merely rise to the occasion to cast a little light on the proposed class action suit as resolution concept. It ain't gonna work.

'Nuff said.

Fair enough Smiley
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April 05, 2012, 06:40:05 AM
 #57

   Bitcoin is an alt currency/community experiment. It is the Wild Wild West of a community currency without boarders. There are the traditional ways of dealing with these imperfections and there will be new ways of dealing with them. If the BitCoin is considered just a currency pegged to a traditional fiat, then relying on the traditional systems will work (and not work).

Out of everything said here today, this comment made me just sit back and smile.  This really is The Wild West.

There is a tremendous amount of good information, thank you.  I definitely have a lot of reading to do. And some other interesting and even amusing stuff.

As far as my attorney, should this go that direction, he is a personal friend that is doing this as a favor to me.  Preferably, Andrew comes up with a legit repayment plan and sticks to it.  Last he said to me was he is flying to Seattle next Sunday or Monday for a job that is supposed to pay for most of the debt as well as start a continues flow of btc and he is also waiting for payb.tc's auction to end to be able to lay out a structured plan with a chapter 13 like build to it.  So, we will be waiting for awhile yet.

I agree a class action is not realistic, but what can happen is a group of plaintiffs who have proof of contracts and payments to him, cash, btc or otherwise, can compile a claim together to obtain a money judgement against future wage assignments.  And I say future because there is nothing to be taken from him now.

Again, thanks for the pile of night stand reading.   Cheesy

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April 05, 2012, 06:57:55 AM
 #58


At some point a person has to wonder... why should they/we trust you?  Some of your behavior does set off red flags.  At first you seemed normal and easy to get along with.  The longer you're around, the less I trust you.  You need to cut the rhetoric and threats out and stick to the facts.  


She was Shakaru's roommate after all  Grin

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April 05, 2012, 07:00:58 AM
 #59


At some point a person has to wonder... why should they/we trust you?  Some of your behavior does set off red flags.  At first you seemed normal and easy to get along with.  The longer you're around, the less I trust you.  You need to cut the rhetoric and threats out and stick to the facts. 


She was Shakaru's roommate after all  Grin

Touche'

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April 05, 2012, 07:01:05 AM
 #60

What I am actually interested in trying to find would be the block chains showing where the money went once it was in  Andrews hands.  We know for a fact it was sent to him.  We know some was sent back to the original investors.  But if we can show the majority was withdrawn directly by him, or used by him online for misc purchases un-related to his op, we have a case where a legal money judgement can be obtained along with wage orders, in case he continues to give promises with no results.

Following tainted coins is not an easy undertaking.
Good luck with that.

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