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Author Topic: [XMR] Monero Speculation  (Read 3187755 times)
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smooth
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May 29, 2018, 08:27:23 PM
 #38381

In his recent report (can be found on reddit) Dr. Noether talks about the implementation of bulletproofs and how this might present a need for Monero to make changes to it's fee structure so the chain is not abused.

Which Dr. Noether? Wink

Anyway, the situation with BP is a bit different: BP are writing relatively little data, but imposing a (relatively) high cost on all nodes to verify the transactions. It is a bit like smart contracts and gas, but of course a narrower specific case.

Writing a lot of data to the chain (for example because you want to store your family photos for all time and are willing to pay a one-time fee for the privilege) is another side of the issue, and one that very few blockchains deal with all that well.

On the price speculation side, interesting moves today with cryptos in line with safe haven assets after the Italian melt down and associated Euro risk repricing. For the most part of the past couple of years cryptos have been behaving as a risk asset, not a safe haven.
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May 29, 2018, 08:34:07 PM
 #38382

Who are the genius who decided to fork the POW algo?
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May 30, 2018, 06:22:34 AM
 #38383

Who are the genius who decided to fork the POW algo?

The community
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May 30, 2018, 10:26:29 AM
 #38384

Who are the genius who decided to fork the POW algo?

The community
Why I wasn't consulted?
How do you get to be a member of "the community"?
Where the vote was hosted?
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May 30, 2018, 10:40:52 AM
 #38385

We voted not to include you in the vote

Buy the dip and the breadsticks
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May 30, 2018, 10:47:52 AM
 #38386

We voted not to include you in the vote
Where have you voted? Who are the people who voted? What are the criteria to be able to do so?

I am serious here. When the fixed supply have been lifted, there were a debate and a vote.

Did the same process happen regarding this very important decision? Is there any kind of documentation of this process?
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May 30, 2018, 11:04:23 AM
 #38387

Who are the genius who decided to fork the POW algo?

The community
Why I wasn't consulted?
How do you get to be a member of "the community"?
Where the vote was hosted?

It depends on how much coins your wallet holds.  If it isn't high enough, you don't get to be invited in the lodge and be taught the secret hand shake by the Grand Pony himself.

I too wasn't able to get in the lodge, but I had enough to be invited in the front yard and was taught the secret fist bump.

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DaveyJones
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May 30, 2018, 11:44:59 AM
Merited by BldSwtTrs (1)
 #38388

We voted not to include you in the vote
Where have you voted? Who are the people who voted? What are the criteria to be able to do so?

I am serious here. When the fixed supply have been lifted, there were a debate and a vote.

Did the same process happen regarding this very important decision? Is there any kind of documentation of this process?

The whole thing is called consensus, everyone who doesn't or didnt agree now has XMO/XMC/XM-C, and as the whole eco-system decided that the fork will get consensus ( pools, exchanges all call the Non-Asic Chain XMR )

I guess the poll was a once in a lifetime thing for monero as the community was still small and there also were no other channels like there is nowadays.

There were debates all over reddit for weeks about it ( guess its reddit because there is the biggest part of the community now )
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May 30, 2018, 12:23:54 PM
 #38389

We voted not to include you in the vote
Where have you voted? Who are the people who voted? What are the criteria to be able to do so?

I am serious here. When the fixed supply have been lifted, there were a debate and a vote.

Did the same process happen regarding this very important decision? Is there any kind of documentation of this process?

The whole thing is called consensus, everyone who doesn't or didnt agree now has XMO/XMC/XM-C, and as the whole eco-system decided that the fork will get consensus ( pools, exchanges all call the Non-Asic Chain XMR )

I guess the poll was a once in a lifetime thing for monero as the community was still small and there also were no other channels like there is nowadays.

There were debates all over reddit for weeks about it ( guess its reddit because there is the biggest part of the community now )
Thank you for the serious answer.

Due to inertie effect, whatever is merged in the Github repo of a protocol manage to gather consensus. So basically it's the monero devs who decided that Bitmain was evil and therefore that Monero should undergo a change of its security backbone? Who are the devs who were pro fork and the one who were against? Were there any demonstration of the dangerousness of the old POW or of the safety of a change?

Can we except other important decisions to be taken the same way in the future?
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May 30, 2018, 12:33:24 PM
 #38390

Who are the genius who decided to fork the POW algo?

The community
Why I wasn't consulted?
How do you get to be a member of "the community"?
Where the vote was hosted?


There was a lot of talks about mining in last years. Github, reddit this forum. When you have ideas you should just tell them.  Github is main place for you.


So basically it's the monero devs who decided that Bitmain was evil and therefore that Monero should undergo a change of its security backbone?

Be the developer. Be active on any questions that interest you and reply with your better suggestion.  That is only way. No one will hear you if you will not say. 

.BitDice.               ▄▄███▄▄
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May 30, 2018, 12:35:14 PM
 #38391

We voted not to include you in the vote
Where have you voted? Who are the people who voted? What are the criteria to be able to do so?

I am serious here. When the fixed supply have been lifted, there were a debate and a vote.

Did the same process happen regarding this very important decision? Is there any kind of documentation of this process?

The whole thing is called consensus, everyone who doesn't or didnt agree now has XMO/XMC/XM-C, and as the whole eco-system decided that the fork will get consensus ( pools, exchanges all call the Non-Asic Chain XMR )

I guess the poll was a once in a lifetime thing for monero as the community was still small and there also were no other channels like there is nowadays.

There were debates all over reddit for weeks about it ( guess its reddit because there is the biggest part of the community now )
Thank you for the serious answer.

Due to inertie effect, whatever is merged in the Github repo of a protocol manage to gather consensus. So basically it's the monero devs who decided that Bitmain was evil and therefore that Monero should undergo a change of its security backbone? Who are the devs who were pro fork and the one who were against? Were there any demonstration of the dangerousness of the old POW or of the safety of a change?

Can we except other important decisions to be taken the same way in the future?

https://github.com/monero-project/research-lab/blob/master/whitepaper/whitepaper_annotated.pdf

Scroll down to 2.2 The Proof-of-Work function
And yes, hopefully there will be default decisions like this in the future, it shouldn't even be up for debate if we should embrace asics or not, I see this as a patch rather than a game changer.

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May 30, 2018, 05:33:59 PM
 #38392

We voted not to include you in the vote
Where have you voted? Who are the people who voted? What are the criteria to be able to do so?

I am serious here. When the fixed supply have been lifted, there were a debate and a vote.

Did the same process happen regarding this very important decision? Is there any kind of documentation of this process?

The whole thing is called consensus, everyone who doesn't or didnt agree now has XMO/XMC/XM-C, and as the whole eco-system decided that the fork will get consensus ( pools, exchanges all call the Non-Asic Chain XMR )

I guess the poll was a once in a lifetime thing for monero as the community was still small and there also were no other channels like there is nowadays.

There were debates all over reddit for weeks about it ( guess its reddit because there is the biggest part of the community now )
Thank you for the serious answer.

Due to inertie effect, whatever is merged in the Github repo of a protocol manage to gather consensus. So basically it's the monero devs who decided that Bitmain was evil and therefore that Monero should undergo a change of its security backbone? Who are the devs who were pro fork and the one who were against? Were there any demonstration of the dangerousness of the old POW or of the safety of a change?

Can we except other important decisions to be taken the same way in the future?

Thats not quite how it works, devs code thats right, but there is always back and forth with the community through different channels and plenty of people talking to each other, so if you wanted you could join this discussions too, in the github issues for example.

In case of the PoW Fork it also was a whole different scenario if you read the monero whitepaper - the whitepaper states "that monero should have an egalitarian proof of work" so it's kinda the social contract that should be "obeyed". So CPU and GPU's are egalitarian as everyone who owns a computer has one, meanwhile not everyone owns ASIC's and they also have rather small batches that is far from commodisation and especially players like Bitmain showed in the past that they mine their tech first and dominate PoWs before giving it to the public...

tl;dr PoW change was an obvious/essential move as "egalitarian" is part of the social contract
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May 30, 2018, 08:48:52 PM
 #38393

Overall the change in mining algorithm was a really good call.  I actually remember most talks before was about bot mining.  Now is obvious why. Asic miners owners were pushing that agenda that bot miners are controlling most of  hash power. I pretty much believed them.

.BitDice.               ▄▄███▄▄
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May 30, 2018, 11:43:28 PM
 #38394

I'm not a big fan of forking away from ASICs, but I think it's the only option while Bitmain has a monopoly.

If Jihan Wu hadn't proven himself to be a bad actor, things might be different.
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May 31, 2018, 07:01:06 AM
 #38395

anyone of you guys think we hit the bottom regarding btc value of xmr?
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May 31, 2018, 07:26:22 AM
 #38396

I'm not a big fan of forking away from ASICs, but I think it's the only option while Bitmain has a monopoly.

If Jihan Wu hadn't proven himself to be a bad actor, things might be different.

"egalitarian" is a fundamental philosophical principal. Monero must be ASIC-resistant forever. I have to ask devs - whether it is possible to include timestamp dependencies directly into PoW algorithm? Or in general, could PoW entangle some bits from the outer world, that ASIC to stay impossible without regular forks (typically twice a year) to make ASIC impossible?
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May 31, 2018, 07:32:49 AM
 #38397

anyone of you guys think we hit the bottom regarding btc value of xmr?

If one answers why altcoins (I've checked XMR,ZEC,Dash) fall against BTC last days, while BTC itself in flat or Bart's head?

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May 31, 2018, 07:39:10 AM
 #38398

I went long on XMR  because I think that the weekly supppet which was tested multiples times will end up holding. The suppprt is in the $150 area or so. This is basically the exact same setup as Litecoin but in the $110 range.

I believe that we will at least retest the descending wedge and I will take partial profits there and hold incase it ends up breaking when FOMO is activated and it ends up going to like $500 later in the year.

.FORTUNE.JACK.
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cAPSLOCK
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May 31, 2018, 12:58:18 PM
 #38399

I'm not a big fan of forking away from ASICs, but I think it's the only option while Bitmain has a monopoly.

If Jihan Wu hadn't proven himself to be a bad actor, things might be different.

But Zooko has looked into Jihan's heart and seen the light and love!

https://forum.z.cash/t/so-i-had-a-videochat-with-jihan-wu/29379

Quote
I said that a large fraction — maybe 60% or so — of the XMR hashrate had disappeared from XMR and switched to XMO, and asked if that was Bitmain’s mining operation. He immediately replied “No, it was not us. We released the Monero miner right after the samples.”

For what it is worth, I didn’t get the feeling that he was lying about this. I felt like he was telling the truth. I asked him again if they had been doing any Monero mining with ASICs, because it really seemed like someone must have been, and he said something like that he saw the theory that there was a large-scale stealth ASIC miner, and that he hadn’t had time to look into it to tell if it was real or just a hypothesis, but that in any case it wasn’t them. Again, he sounded sincere to me.
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May 31, 2018, 01:04:13 PM
 #38400

I'm not a big fan of forking away from ASICs, but I think it's the only option while Bitmain has a monopoly.

If Jihan Wu hadn't proven himself to be a bad actor, things might be different.

"egalitarian" is a fundamental philosophical principal. Monero must be ASIC-resistant forever. I have to ask devs - whether it is possible to include timestamp dependencies directly into PoW algorithm? Or in general, could PoW entangle some bits from the outer world, that ASIC to stay impossible without regular forks (typically twice a year) to make ASIC impossible?


Egalitarian and ASICs are not diametrically opposed forever.  Once ASICs become commoditized like GPUs there would be much less need to defend against the centralization ASICs can currently cause.

A big player like Samsung, or others would be useful here.

Of course theat could also mean changint eh hash to something more "standard".

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