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Author Topic: [XMR] Monero Speculation  (Read 3153463 times)
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Billy Bunter
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March 13, 2018, 03:43:00 PM
 #37581

Interesting GitHub discussion, initiated by smooth, as to whether Monero should begin to embrace ASICS instead of opposing them. Raises some interesting questions.

https://github.com/monero-project/monero/issues/3387#issuecomment-372283631


I am glad to see what appears to be a little bit of balance.  I understand the ideal of one CPU one vote, but many folks who would argue against ASICs will also argue in defense of botnets.  The botnet defense usually goes like: "They are securing the network, and they are incentivized not to wreck it by their financial stake".

This exact same argument can be used for ASICs.


A clear difference here is cost to entry.

Botnet owner = 0 (aside some small costs and ofc the initial effort)

ASIC owner = financial investment, commitment


I think one of these clearly cares more about the coin health that the other.


Also I'm reminded of an old description of venture capitalism I was once told. That was "Buy it for a pound, sell it for 2 pounds"


So in the hacker, botnet example its buy it for free. Where is their sell limit then?   erk




Yes, there is an argument that ASICS lead to price stability, if not upward pressure.

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March 13, 2018, 03:44:04 PM
 #37582

I was sure we wouldn't see < 0.027, however that looks unlikely now with a phat 3K XMR order sitting at 0.028.

I really expected 0.03 (now) trading slowly up to 0.05 over the next few months to bring us inline for 1Kusd XMR.

I guess I was overly optimistic...

Looking bearish rn.

You are the eternal optimist - which, by the way, is not a bad thing.

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March 13, 2018, 03:48:09 PM
 #37583

Interesting GitHub discussion, initiated by smooth, as to whether Monero should begin to embrace ASICS instead of opposing them. Raises some interesting questions.

https://github.com/monero-project/monero/issues/3387#issuecomment-372283631


I am glad to see what appears to be a little bit of balance.  I understand the ideal of one CPU one vote, but many folks who would argue against ASICs will also argue in defense of botnets.  The botnet defense usually goes like: "They are securing the network, and they are incentivized not to wreck it by their financial stake".

This exact same argument can be used for ASICs.


A clear difference here is cost to entry.

Botnet owner = 0 (aside some small costs and ofc the initial effort)

ASIC owner = financial investment, commitment


I think one of these clearly cares more about the coin health that the other.


Also I'm reminded of an old description of venture capitalism I was once told. That was "Buy it for a pound, sell it for 2 pounds"


So in the hacker, botnet example its buy it for free. Where is their sell limit then?   erk




ASICs farms are for the privileged, very few people can afford to buy a load of them to run them in on an industrial scale even then manufacturers mine the shit out of it with their latest toys before releasing it to the public, how is that serving anyone let alone decentralization?

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March 13, 2018, 04:05:06 PM
Merited by Hueristic (1)
 #37584

To ASIC or not to ASIC the question is now ...
To give major part of coin emission to a small group of large capital investors or to give a little bit to every one (the people) the question is now ...

ASIC folks, go fork ya'selves  Cool
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March 13, 2018, 04:31:33 PM
 #37585

To ASIC or not to ASIC the question is now ...
To give major part of coin emission to a small group of large capital investors or to give a little bit to every one (the people) the question is now ...

ASIC folks, go fork ya'selves  Cool

I think othe makes a good point in the GitHub discussion, re: botnets and hobbyists.

I think another point to consider is whether or not Monero is going to abandon its six month hard fork cycle at some point. It was my impression that over the next year or three the protocol would mature, and the constant hard forks/upgrades would be phased out. If you're planning on forking constantly to try and evade silicon this becomes impossible, and you impose constant upgrades on users, exchanges, services, etc.
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March 13, 2018, 05:50:37 PM
Merited by Hueristic (1)
 #37586

Interesting GitHub discussion, initiated by smooth, as to whether Monero should begin to embrace ASICS instead of opposing them. Raises some interesting questions.

https://github.com/monero-project/monero/issues/3387#issuecomment-372283631


I am glad to see what appears to be a little bit of balance.  I understand the ideal of one CPU one vote, but many folks who would argue against ASICs will also argue in defense of botnets.  The botnet defense usually goes like: "They are securing the network, and they are incentivized not to wreck it by their financial stake".

This exact same argument can be used for ASICs.

I believe the question at the heart of this idea is clear:  Is it desirable to stick to the original 1 CPU 1 vote vision?  And if so, is it FEASIBLE to continue to enforce that vision?  With ASICs already in the wild it is a very valid set of questions.

If the answer to either is NO, then arguably we should move towards not only allowing ASIC development, but making it as easy as possible.

Disclaimer - I have been fairly firmly in the "original vision" camp for a long time.  But over the years I have grown more amenable to considering other options.

Yea I agree. If you cant beat them, join them. But only when you are sure that you can not beat them. We should try this plan to routinely alter the proof of work and see how that goes first.

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
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March 13, 2018, 07:53:03 PM
 #37587

Is the PoW change code final, can we start working on pool/miner updates?
i am not sure but It is merged, so it should be final.

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March 13, 2018, 08:39:26 PM
Merited by Hueristic (1)
 #37588

Interesting GitHub discussion, initiated by smooth, as to whether Monero should begin to embrace ASICS instead of opposing them. Raises some interesting questions.

https://github.com/monero-project/monero/issues/3387#issuecomment-372283631


I am glad to see what appears to be a little bit of balance.  I understand the ideal of one CPU one vote, but many folks who would argue against ASICs will also argue in defense of botnets.  The botnet defense usually goes like: "They are securing the network, and they are incentivized not to wreck it by their financial stake".

This exact same argument can be used for ASICs.

I believe the question at the heart of this idea is clear:  Is it desirable to stick to the original 1 CPU 1 vote vision?  And if so, is it FEASIBLE to continue to enforce that vision?  With ASICs already in the wild it is a very valid set of questions.

If the answer to either is NO, then arguably we should move towards not only allowing ASIC development, but making it as easy as possible.

Disclaimer - I have been fairly firmly in the "original vision" camp for a long time.  But over the years I have grown more amenable to considering other options.

Yea I agree. If you cant beat them, join them. But only when you are sure that you can not beat them. We should try this plan to routinely alter the proof of work and see how that goes first.

and from what I have seen written, its supposed to be the threat of a change that is the deterrent.

after 1 fork from CN there will already be less incentive to risk it again.




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March 13, 2018, 09:09:46 PM
Merited by Hueristic (1), johnalan (1)
 #37589

Embracing ASICs would be a big FUCK YOU to everyone trying to distribute the network.  Seems to have worked well for bitcoin.  If you can't beat 'em, so be it.  But I expect at least an attempt.
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March 13, 2018, 09:26:50 PM
 #37590

Embracing ASICs would be a big FUCK YOU to everyone trying to distribute the network.  Seems to have worked well for bitcoin.  If you can't beat 'em, so be it.  But I expect at least an attempt.

I wish the sell side on Polo would make an attempt. Fucking joke.

0.024 incoming it seems.
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March 13, 2018, 09:49:43 PM
 #37591

Is the PoW change code final, can we start working on pool/miner updates?
i am not sure but It is merged, so it should be final.

Yes of course the POW change is final. Discussion is there for next hardforks. Same as was discussion in past to do a POW change altho many was upset that was so sudden decision.   Binaries to update for everyone are usually out a week before hardfork happen. And usually there are some bugs and we get new few days latter.

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March 13, 2018, 09:59:48 PM
Merited by Globb0 (2)
 #37592

To ASIC or not to ASIC the question is now ...
To give major part of coin emission to a small group of large capital investors or to give a little bit to every one (the people) the question is now ...

ASIC folks, go fork ya'selves  Cool

I think othe makes a good point in the GitHub discussion, re: botnets and hobbyists.

I think another point to consider is whether or not Monero is going to abandon its six month hard fork cycle at some point. It was my impression that over the next year or three the protocol would mature, and the constant hard forks/upgrades would be phased out. If you're planning on forking constantly to try and evade silicon this becomes impossible, and you impose constant upgrades on users, exchanges, services, etc.

Just by doing it once proves that you are willing to do it again and adds a deterrent. AFA in the future, well that can be tackled then, right now we can get free HF with the Updates that are planned anyway.

Changing Algo was always in the future, it has to be.


Embracing ASICs would be a big FUCK YOU to everyone trying to distribute the network.  Seems to have worked well for bitcoin.  If you can't beat 'em, so be it.  But I expect at least an attempt.

I wish the sell side on Polo would make an attempt. Fucking joke.

0.024 incoming it seems.

c'est la vie

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March 13, 2018, 10:37:22 PM
 #37593

To ASIC or not to ASIC the question is now ...
To give major part of coin emission to a small group of large capital investors or to give a little bit to every one (the people) the question is now ...

ASIC folks, go fork ya'selves  Cool

I think othe makes a good point in the GitHub discussion, re: botnets and hobbyists.

I think another point to consider is whether or not Monero is going to abandon its six month hard fork cycle at some point. It was my impression that over the next year or three the protocol would mature, and the constant hard forks/upgrades would be phased out. If you're planning on forking constantly to try and evade silicon this becomes impossible, and you impose constant upgrades on users, exchanges, services, etc.

Just by doing it once proves that you are willing to do it again and adds a deterrent. AFA in the future, well that can be tackled then, right now we can get free HF with the Updates that are planned anyway.

Changing Algo was always in the future, it has to be.


Embracing ASICs would be a big FUCK YOU to everyone trying to distribute the network.  Seems to have worked well for bitcoin.  If you can't beat 'em, so be it.  But I expect at least an attempt.

I wish the sell side on Polo would make an attempt. Fucking joke.

0.024 incoming it seems.

c'est la vie

Maybe I spoke too soon!

https://twitter.com/CNBCFastMoney/status/973679299596292096

Wink
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March 13, 2018, 10:41:25 PM
 #37594


From those comments it appears CNBC crypto class is a bit of a meme. Everyone there is saying, quite contrary to being bullish, it is literally the most bearish thing in the known universe.

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
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March 13, 2018, 10:44:06 PM
 #37595


Changing Algo was always in the future, it has to be.


I like this the best.

We need once and for all to break the link to the scammy CryptoNote

From there forth we forge our own destiny.

That shit dragged us down far too long.

Phil




Touch my bad self
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March 13, 2018, 10:49:47 PM
 #37596


Changing Algo was always in the future, it has to be.


I like this the best.

We need once and for all to break the link to the scammy CryptoNote

From there forth we forge our own destiny.

That shit dragged us down far too long.

Phil

Thx Smiley


From those comments it appears CNBC crypto class is a bit of a meme. Everyone there is saying, quite contrary to being bullish, it is literally the most bearish thing in the known universe.

LOL, I was really happy I just got another @ .02715 !
It's tougher on binance to get a lower price i've found.


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HanvanBitcoin
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March 13, 2018, 11:18:53 PM
 #37597

€200 a piece looks like a good buy to me for Monero Grin Just bought myself a couple more.

*                                                              BTC~One day we'll all be living like kings!~BTC                                                             *
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March 14, 2018, 01:20:46 AM
 #37598

I actually like Fluffy's suggestion of a x11 switch until the next HF and then settling on one then.

Well I thought it was funny. Smiley

...as usual I picked the wrong time to buy. Cheesy

/hodl mode on


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March 14, 2018, 11:29:03 AM
 #37599

ASICs are a direct speedway to centralization. Do you want to concentrate a lot of XMR essence/power into the hands  of a Jihan Wu kind of guy?. Nothing good can come from that. Let´s keep the proyect open and distrubuted, even if in hands of botnets
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March 14, 2018, 12:25:13 PM
 #37600

Once you go ASIC positive you can't go back. I consider the advent of BCH a negative. My impression is that the market nearly flipped, and that in large part due to the centralizing influence of ASICs.  It is not a future I would want for Monero.

Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.  Give a man a Poisson distribution and he eats at random times independent of one another, at a constant known rate.
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