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Author Topic: [GLBSE] BFLS - Bitcoin Mining & Sales  (Read 15932 times)
HorseRider
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June 01, 2012, 03:38:51 AM
 #181

coming another end of week. Too much false hopes is worse than tell everyone frankly the real time schedule.

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Inaba
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June 01, 2012, 03:45:12 AM
 #182

I'm waiting on the hardware from BFL.  If you are following the other thread(s), they are in a holding pattern waiting for cases.  I stopped by the labs this week to check on things... there is a huge stack of uncased units ready to go, so as soon as the cases come in it should be good.

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June 01, 2012, 05:10:43 AM
 #183

I'm waiting on the hardware from BFL.  If you are following the other thread(s), they are in a holding pattern waiting for cases.  I stopped by the labs this week to check on things... there is a huge stack of uncased units ready to go, so as soon as the cases come in it should be good.


Thanks for the update Inaba.

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June 03, 2012, 01:14:22 PM
 #184

I am traveling today. I am going to try to get dividend payments out today but if I can't I will have them done hopefully Monday evening.

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June 04, 2012, 02:31:55 AM
 #185

I am not in a place I can get the dividend payouts handled tonight.  I apologize, but they are going to be delayed a day... I should have them ready to go and distributed tomorrow night, a day late.  I apologize if this causes a problem.

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June 04, 2012, 04:08:09 AM
 #186

Thanks for the heads-up. Appreciated.

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June 05, 2012, 01:46:34 AM
 #187

Dividends have been paid.  I hope to have the hardware available this week as soon as the cases come in.  I'll keep this thread updated as soon as I know something.

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June 10, 2012, 03:52:03 PM
 #188

Dividends for this week have been paid.  This was an exceptionally crappy week as far as mining goes... several factors contributed to a just over 100% PPS rate.  I am going to be making some changes to the way mining is handled, hopefully this week, so we should net greater than 100% PPS next week.

As far as BFLS.FUTURES, I am still waiting on BFL for the remaining hardware.  If you're following the other thread at all, you'll see no one has received a shipment of singles in ~2 weeks... as soon as I get the hardware, I will start converting BFLS.FUTURES shares.  I apologize, but I can't do anything without the hardware.


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June 10, 2012, 05:39:26 PM
 #189

Dividends for this week have been paid.  This was an exceptionally crappy week as far as mining goes... several factors contributed to a just over 100% PPS rate.  I am going to be making some changes to the way mining is handled, hopefully this week, so we should net greater than 100% PPS next week.

My physical miners have had a crappy week as well. Primary and backup pools underperformed. Just bad luck. Good luck happens just as often ... just have to wait for it.  I consider anything above 100% PPS to be a bonus; when it happens it is much appreciated. BFLS can mine at various 100%+ PPS pools to provide shareholders with 100%+ PPS, but those are not always reliable. The possibility of greater than 100% PPS payouts is one of the perks that BFLS shareholders enjoy, something the fixed 100% PPS mining bonds cannot claim. Though with that comes the risk that there may be times when back luck happens. Wink

Cheers for the service!

Inaba, I was going to hold off asking this until after the June 15 announcement, but perhaps I can pose these initial questions to get us thinking: as you know BFL has stated that they will honor a 1:1 swap of old/existing product for their upcoming SC line.

1] Can we assume that it is your intention to swap out the existing BFLS hardware when (and if) that opportunity is presented?
2] Would that decision go through a 'Motion Vote' on GLBSE for existing BFLS shareholders (I'm not sure how that works)?
3] How would the swap affect BFLS shares? i.e. right now a share is worth 1/200th of a Single (4.1Mhps). Let's say the $600 Single was swapped for a $600 SC product with 2x the hashrate. Would the BFLS share then represent 8.2Mhps (2x 4.1Mhps), or would you do a share split in which 1 share was converted into 2 with each one still representing the the same 4Mhps hashrate?

Probably too early to be making final decisions on this, but I'm thinking this is a topic that WILL be brought up sooner or later, and it might be good to at least start thinking about the various issues it will bring to the table.

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June 11, 2012, 04:58:39 PM
 #190

Sorry I haven't responded to this before now, I wanted to have a better answer for you.  But in the interests of at least making people aware of that fact that I am considering the options, that's what I'm doing. 

1) Yes, that is the most likely scenario, although there are a few other options I am considering, but are fairly unlikely.
2) I don't have a current answer for this, but I'm open to it - although I'm not sure why anyone would NOT want that to happen.
3) I can not answer this right now due to the fact that I have proprietary information that has not been released publicly as of yet and any answer I give would disclose at least some of that knowledge.  But I will say the share distribution will be fairly distributed based on cost vs performance.  Currently while shares equate to ~4 MH/s, the share price was determined by the cost not speed, so expect more of the same without a very good compelling reason to change.  I did this because it prevents the shares from suddenly becoming worthless when newer technology comes out... as you can see with all the other mining bonds out there now, they are going to suddenly delvalue a whole hell of a lot if/when ASIC becomes common place - BFLS shares will retain all of their value since they are based on the hardware, not deterministic mining output. 

Once the rigboxe(s) come in, I will be selling the rigbox shares based on a similar formula based on Rigbox cost, not it's expected hashrate.  So again, you'll get the benefit of upgrades without the shares devaluing.

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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June 18, 2012, 03:31:59 AM
 #191

Mining went fairly well this week.  I was waiting on one last payment to come in and it just came in, but the transfer to GLBSE is taking longer than I'd like (Yay for 1 hour + confirmations).  As such, I am going to be headed to bed soon, so dividend payments will happen first thing in the morning (for me). 


If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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June 19, 2012, 05:26:11 AM
 #192

Thanks for the payment, Inaba. A question for you:

GLBSE indicates that BFLS currently has 6395 shares that are receiving payments. It is my understanding that BFLS is allocated in exactly 200 shares per Single, and currently no other mining hardware is being utilized (MiniRigs are not in yet; GPUs are taboo).

Since 6395 is not divisible by 200 shares, exactly what hardware do those shares represent? That's assuming BFLS shares are released in blocks of 200 (200 per Single: 170 for public sale; 30 for you), and all released shares have been sold. Past dividend payments were paid across 4210 and 7500 shares ... also not divisible by 200. Just curious to know.

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June 19, 2012, 01:17:28 PM
 #193

Basically what's happening is this: 

I have a large farm, and trying to manage it individually based on the type and location was proving to be almost impossible and still maintain and efficient operation.  As such, I pooled all of my mining resources one giant bucket, so they all mine to the same place and all the resulting revenues are generated together.  The odd share arrangement are shares that I have allocated to myself for the hardware I have in the bucket at a rate of 826 MH/s per 200 shares, minus some fudge factor (so I end up shorting myself a few shares). 

As I slowly sell off my GPU holdings, I am returning those shares to the BFLS bucket of unallocated shares (which is why you see the share count going down), and it will increase again when BFL finally gets me my remaining units.


If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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June 19, 2012, 03:16:16 PM
 #194

I have a large farm, and trying to manage it individually based on the type and location was proving to be almost impossible and still maintain and efficient operation.  As such, I pooled all of my mining resources one giant bucket, so they all mine to the same place and all the resulting revenues are generated together.  The odd share arrangement are shares that I have allocated to myself for the hardware I have in the bucket at a rate of 826 MH/s per 200 shares, minus some fudge factor (so I end up shorting myself a few shares).  

As I slowly sell off my GPU holdings, I am returning those shares to the BFLS bucket of unallocated shares (which is why you see the share count going down), and it will increase again when BFL finally gets me my remaining units.

That is reasonable, though I am surprised that GPUs are now part of BFLS.

My only concern would be if electricity costs are being taken out of BFLS gross profits. GPUs are much more power hungry than Singles so the presence of GPUs would drag net profits down. Depending on rates, a GPU's mining profits would be reduced by ~25% due to electricity cost. So, essentially, to net 826Mhps out of a GPU you'd actually need it to hash as 1100Mhps.

If this is the case, and you are paying for electricity out of BFLS gross profits, then I would submit that only 200 shares per 1100Mhps worth of GPUs should be allocated (not 200 per 826Mhps). Of course, the specific numbers depend on your electricity rates and the BTC exchange rate, but this is a reasonable ballpark.

The initial offering in the OP states that BFLS was an FPGA mining company and mentions Singles specifically. I think one of the reasons shareholders were attracted to this was specifically that there would be no GPUs involved, thus little overhead costs, and a high percentage of the gross profits would be distributed to shareholders rather than the electric company.

You had asked everyone's thoughts on adding GPUs to the BFLS farm before in this thread and I've presented my concerns here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=75433.msg904121#msg904121). There was one additional negative response to the idea, and no positives.

I think the message was that GPUs should only be added as a separate listing from BFLS, so they do not to drag down net profits. But if you are not paying electricity out of BFLS income (or paying a fixed fee regardless of how much you use), then this is moot.

Cheers!

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June 19, 2012, 03:29:59 PM
 #195

I have a large farm, and trying to manage it individually based on the type and location was proving to be almost impossible and still maintain and efficient operation.  As such, I pooled all of my mining resources one giant bucket, so they all mine to the same place and all the resulting revenues are generated together.  The odd share arrangement are shares that I have allocated to myself for the hardware I have in the bucket at a rate of 826 MH/s per 200 shares, minus some fudge factor (so I end up shorting myself a few shares).  

As I slowly sell off my GPU holdings, I am returning those shares to the BFLS bucket of unallocated shares (which is why you see the share count going down), and it will increase again when BFL finally gets me my remaining units.

That is reasonable, though I am surprised that GPUs are now part of BFLS.

My only concern would be if electricity costs are being taken out of BFLS gross profits. GPUs are much more power hungry than Singles so the presence of GPUs would drag net profits down. Depending on rates, a GPU's mining profits would be reduced by ~25% due to electricity cost. So, essentially, to net 826Mhps out of a GPU you'd actually need it to hash as 1100Mhps.

If this is the case, and you are paying for electricity out of BFLS gross profits, then I would submit that only 200 shares per 1100Mhps worth of GPUs should be allocated (not 200 per 826Mhps). Of course, the specific numbers depend on your electricity rates and the BTC exchange rate, but this is a reasonable ballpark.

The initial offering in the OP states that BFLS was an FPGA mining company and mentions Singles specifically. I think one of the reasons shareholders were attracted to this was specifically that there would be no GPUs involved, thus little overhead costs, and a high percentage of the gross profits would be distributed to shareholders rather than the electric company.

You had asked everyone's thoughts on adding GPUs to the BFLS farm before in this thread and I've presented my concerns here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=75433.msg904121#msg904121). There was one additional negative response to the idea, and no positives.

I think the message was that GPUs should only be added as a separate listing from BFLS, so they do not to drag down net profits. But if you are not paying electricity out of BFLS income, then this is moot.

From the OP:

200 Shares per BFL Single unit will be issued, with 30 (15%) being kept by the operator to cover operational costs, maintenance, and unit replacement.

That would include electricity. I am also somewhat concerned that some of the hardware backing this is not singles as was indicated, but as long as Inaba provides the equivalent hashrate/profits and honors the trade-in option, the difference is functionally nonexistent.

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June 19, 2012, 04:15:23 PM
 #196

GPUs aren't added to BFLS as backed hardware. The equivalent shares are added to me to make management easier.  I think maybe that's where the confusion lies - there is no distributed shares out there that are not backed by BFL singles.

Electricity/maintenance rates are not factored into the shares at all, only pure hashrate vs shares, which is what the BFLS shares are. The maintenance/electricity is already factored into the 170/200 share split per unit, so 200 shares = 826 MH/s, which includes all maintenance/operational costs.  Any additional costs from operating a GPU vs a BFL Single comes directly out of my pocket, not the BFLS dividends.

The "extra" shares that are currently showing are factored from my GPU farms at a rate of 826 MH/s per 200 shares, but this is purely because all the mining income is going to the same bucket and would be difficult to split out (I already tried to keep them separate and it was a nightmare accounting wise).  So all my mining income is put into GLBSE and then dividends are paid out there - it makes the accounting much simpler.

Because of the negative response to the GPUs backing BFLS, I have not converted BFLS Futures shares and am instead waiting on actual BFLS hardware - that's why there is still BFLS Futures shares outstanding.  I am the only one holding shares that are backed by GPUs and I will not be selling/distributing shares that are not backed by BFL hardware.

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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June 19, 2012, 04:28:13 PM
 #197

Excellent, I think that clarifies things very well!

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June 19, 2012, 04:30:34 PM
 #198

Excellent, I think that clarifies things very well!

Indeed. Thank you Inaba, and my apologies for jumping to conclusions.

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June 19, 2012, 04:57:38 PM
 #199

Inaba, regarding the BFLS Singles. Now that BFL has made new (faster) firmware available for the units, do you have any plans to flash some or all of them to a higher hashrate? I realize that not all Singles can handle that without throttling, but perhaps the climate in your DC is cool enough for them to operate at 864/872/880 or even 896.

This would be another way to increase dividend yield.

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June 19, 2012, 04:58:48 PM
 #200

Yes, once I have everything setup like I want it, I will be slowly figuring out what's the most efficient firmware for each single.

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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