ISSUE WITH GOATS TYGRR-BANK BONDS.

[hashking]

I PM'D Goat this afternoon asking him that I should have still received my dividends even though I sold my bonds before they were paid.  I ended up selling 926 bonds on Tuesday and Wednesday this week before the whole Goat and Nefario drama happenned.  

His first repsond through email on the GLBSE was
Nefario is the only one with the technical skills to wort this out. I'm all about free market and he is about regulation. He is your man!

So I emailed Nefario and he said that Goat is responsible for this.  

I PM'd Goat and told him what Nefario said, Goat responds with
okay, make a discussion thread about this if you want me to respond. i hope you are not just trolling :/

I toldl Goat that it would be easier just to handle this through pm.

His response is:

you are saying I scammed you right? You need to take this to the trading discussion sub-forum so you can be educated how bonds work. :/
I do not have time for this right now, Sorry.

I never said that he scammed me.  All I did was ask for money that was owed to me and how do we resolve this.

According to his offering
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67818.0

Edit:
I will be selling a 2000 more bonds and lowering the payment to 2.5% on April 3rd. This means that the dividends on March 27th and April 3rd will be at 3% but after that it will be 2.5% until I change it (odds are lower it)
End Edit:
TyGrr-Bank Now operational on GLBSE!
TyGrr-Bank is a BTC bond that will pay weekly dividends every Tuesday 6:00 PM Thailand time.
This is an easy and safe way to lend small amounts of BTC.
The current rate is 3% each week!
Each bond will be sold at .103 BTC and will be bought back at any time at .1 BTC.
This spread is here because you do not need to hold the bond for a full week to get the dividend payment.
Thanks!

In my opinion he sold bonds not knowing how the GLBSE would handle trading on them and promised a .1 BTC per bond buyback.

I bought 926 bonds at 99.90 and sold 926 bonds at 77.252.  I didn't received Goats promised .1 BTC per bond like promised in his post.  
So currently he owes me 15.34 BTC for the price difference in bonds and 2.778 for the dividends.

[1713933114]

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[OgNasty]

Goat selling 3% bonds and then suddenly saying he'll only pay 2.5% while telling you that you need to learn how bonds work is priceless.  Almost as classic as selling an additional 2000 shares in response to accusations that he was running a ponzi scheme.  

[hashking]

Goat selling 3% bonds and then suddenly saying he'll only pay 2.5% while telling you that you need to learn how bonds work is priceless.  Almost as classic as selling an additional 2000 shares in response to accusations that he was running a ponzi scheme. 

All I have to say is BUYER BEWARE.

[Raoul Duke]

AND...
BINGO

[Kluge]

Goat selling 3% bonds and then suddenly saying he'll only pay 2.5% while telling you that you need to learn how bonds work is priceless.  Almost as classic as selling an additional 2000 shares in response to accusations that he was running a ponzi scheme. 

He didn't "suddenly" say it. It was announced at least two weeks prior.

The problem here arose because Goat does not have a bidwall up on GLBSE, so HK sold his shares to a third-party, not back to Goat. Goat stated he will BUY back shares. As Goat was not sold back his shares in this case, I think it'd be a hard argument to expect him to pay the difference between what HK received from a third-party and face-value of the bonds. But again, there ought to have been (and be) a bidwall up buying @ face value.

Goat's response, though... :/


ETA: Agree he should have stated you need to contact him prior to selling, too - which wouldn't be an issue if there were a bidwall up.

ETA2: Just for clarification on the bidwall - I forgot GLBSE now locks related assets to open orders. I also forget Goat has other intentions with this bond than profits. I was thinking having a bidwall up @ .1 would be great for him as it's effectively 3% profit over what he sold them for since he could just re-issue @ .1025. I never even thought he might pay partial dividends if someone sold a share before the dividend issue date -- that concept seems quite foreign to me.

[hashking]

Goat selling 3% bonds and then suddenly saying he'll only pay 2.5% while telling you that you need to learn how bonds work is priceless.  Almost as classic as selling an additional 2000 shares in response to accusations that he was running a ponzi scheme. 

He didn't "suddenly" say it. It was announced at least two weeks prior.

The problem here arose because Goat does not have a bidwall up on GLBSE, so HK sold his shares to a third-party, not back to Goat. Goat stated he will BUY back shares. As Goat was not sold back his shares in this case, I think it'd be a hard argument to expect him to pay the difference between what HK received from a third-party and face-value of the bonds. But again, there ought to have been (and be) a bidwall up buying @ face value.

Goat's response, though... :/

The thing is he didn't specify in his bond thread that we would have to contact him to sell them back.  He messed this up by not being clear if that's how he wanted this to work.

[N12]

I was unable to increase my bid wall because my account was locked. Is this my fault or Nefarios?

I also said in the thread contact me if you want to sell back a large amount and I will place a bid wall. He never contacted me.

I'm interested to see what people think I should do here and why. I think this will be a very fun thread.

In my view, it was yours, because you caused the whole public drama in the first place which led to the selling and refused to cooperate with Nefario (simple ID), so you valued your pride higher than your shareholders. It was right to lock your account if it’s true there were hundreds of login attempts.

But I’m going to refrain from commenting further on this case. It’s clear enough at this point for everyone to take his stance based on what happened.

[hashking]

I was unable to increase my bid wall because my account was locked. Is this my fault or Nefarios?

I also said in the thread contact me if you want to sell back a large amount and I will place a bid wall. He never contacted me.

I'm interested to see what people think I should do here and why. I think this will be a very fun thread.

Here is your offering.  Please state where it shows that we should have contacted you.


Edit:

I will be selling a 2000 more bonds and lowering the payment to 2.5% on April 3rd. This means that the dividends on March 27th and April 3rd will be at 3% but after that it will be 2.5% until I change it (odds are lower it)

End Edit:

TyGrr-Bank Now operational on GLBSE!

TyGrr-Bank is a BTC bond that will pay weekly dividends every Tuesday 6:00 PM Thailand time.

This is an easy and safe way to lend small amounts of BTC.

The current rate is 3% each week!

Each bond will be sold at .103 BTC and will be bought back at any time at .1 BTC.

This spread is here because you do not need to hold the bond for a full week to get the dividend payment.


Thanks!

[hashking]

Maybe this thing should get delisted.   There are too many issues with it and Goat doesn't want to take any responsibility for his errors.

[guruvan]

Maybe this thing should get delisted.   There are too many issues with it and Goat doesn't want to take any responsibility for his errors.

While that may be the case, trading should have been halted while the issue was sorted out. There is more than Goat responsible for this situation.

[OgNasty]

Delisting won't have much of an effect on Goat, he has 3 other listings on the GLBSE.  Pirateat40 telling him to walk the plank due to this would be the only real justice.

[hashking]

Maybe this thing should get delisted.   There are too many issues with it and Goat doesn't want to take any responsibility for his errors.

While that may be the case, trading should have been halted while the issue was sorted out. There is more than Goat responsible for this situation.

Even if the situation with him and Nefario didn't occur the same would have happenned.  Halting it would have done nothing.  It doesn't change what he promised to the bond holders.

[likuidxd]

I was unable to increase my bid wall because my account was locked. Is this my fault or Nefarios?

I also said in the thread contact me if you want to sell back a large amount and I will place a bid wall. He never contacted me.

I'm interested to see what people think I should do here and why. I think this will be a very fun thread.

IMO
He was still holding when the dividends should have been paid so he should receive that.

Maybe a percentage of the difference should be paid because of the delay in complying with Nefarios request and the miscommunication.

[hashking]

I held the bonds on the 4th and 3rd so I should have been paid.  There is no way you can dispute that.  

[hashking]

So should I take away the dividends from the people I already paid?

Why would you do that. 

[likuidxd]

So should I take away the dividends from the people I already paid?

No. That's not fair to your new bond holders.
If he can prove he held those bonds on the day that the dividends are scheduled to be paid in the bond description, then he should receive that money. You also need to add to that description that you need to be contacted about buying back bonds. You can't expect future holders to go through your forum op for everything.

In business, cover all your bases or someone will run them.

Happy Opening Day baseball fans! 

[Nefario]

So should I take away the dividends from the people I already paid?

No. That's not fair to your new bond holders.
If he can prove he held those bonds on the day that the dividends are scheduled to be paid in the bond description, then he should receive that money. You also need to add to that description that you need to be contacted about buying back bonds. You can't expect future holders to go through your forum op for everything.

In business, cover all your bases or someone will run them.

Happy Opening Day baseball fans! 

The functionality to pay people based on the dates they held the shares is not a part of GLBSE(yet).

Yes people (asset issuers) make promises to pay on certain days and times, these are all subject to permissive circumstances. Sometimes there are delays for various reasons.

Are there terms in the Tygrr-Bank contract for what happens if a certain condition is not met (i.e. payments made late)?

Unless there are terms that outline what happens in such an eventuality I don't think you can just make them up yourself. What you can hope for is a best effort attempt to make it up.

Shares in Tygrr-Bank were not frozen, the market could decide for itself what was the best thing to do. If someone decides to sell at a loss because of some bad news then that is their decision.

[vampire]

So in a nutshell:

Nefario locks Goats account
Goat is prevented from sending dividends
Hashing sells bonds during the lock
After the unlock goat sent the payments to current bond holders

Hashking misses the dividends because he isn't a bond holder anymore.



Hmm.

[hashking]

So should I take away the dividends from the people I already paid?

No. That's not fair to your new bond holders.
If he can prove he held those bonds on the day that the dividends are scheduled to be paid in the bond description, then he should receive that money. You also need to add to that description that you need to be contacted about buying back bonds. You can't expect future holders to go through your forum op for everything.

In business, cover all your bases or someone will run them.

Happy Opening Day baseball fans! 

The functionality to pay people based on the dates they held the shares is not a part of GLBSE(yet).

Yes people (asset issuers) make promises to pay on certain days and times, these are all subject to permissive circumstances. Sometimes there are delays for various reasons.

Are there terms in the Tygrr-Bank contract for what happens if a certain condition is not met (i.e. payments made late)?

Unless there are terms that outline what happens in such an eventuality I don't think you can just make them up yourself. What you can hope for is a best effort attempt to make it up.

Shares in Tygrr-Bank were not frozen, the market could decide for itself what was the best thing to do. If someone decides to sell at a loss because of some bad news then that is their decision.

So it sounds like you are ok with people just making up the rules for their stock as they go along and not payout what they promised.  If there is no rules for the companies that trade on your exchange then its worthless at best.  

[vampire]

And didn't kluge agreed to cover the difference of ~18btc?

[DeaDTerra]

It was clearly stated from the beginning that Goat could change the interest rate as long as he would tell the shareholders two weeks in advance, this was done. It was also stated that there might be delays in the interest payment in extreme situations. This qualifies. Regrading that you sold out out of panic at a lower price then 0.1, well that's not goats fault that's yours it's a free market and you decided to sell. To bad, you can't blame Goat for a stupid decision you took. Don't think Kluge should have paid you...
//DeaDTerra

[John (John K.)]

It was clearly stated from the beginning that Goat could change the interest rate as long as he would tell the shareholders two weeks in advance, this was done. It was also stated that there might be delays in the interest payment in extreme situations. This qualifies. Regrading that you sold out out of panic at a lower price then 0.1, well that's not goats fault that's yours it's a free market and you decided to sell. To bad, you can't blame Goat for a stupid decision you took. Don't think Kluge should have paid you...
//DeaDTerra

Yeah +1. I would rather donate the money to charities then give hashking if I was in Kluge's soles.

[The00Dustin]

Posted this in TyGrr-Bank thread before seeing this thread (edited for context):

It's a free market, and it's hashking's fault that hasking sold the bonds for less than face value.  No one else has any fault here unless you imply that dividends should be paid to shareholders as of record (so to who held the bonds on Tuesday at a given time, the normal day for payments).  However, GLBSE has never claimed to offer such a feature (as Nefario already mentioned in this thread), so blaming Nefario for not offering a feature he never seemed to offer doesn't make sense.  Lots of people will be out lots of money if bitcoin fails, and this wil be their fault for investing in bitcoin, not Satoshi's for inventing it.

Also, for the record, a bid wall to pay back the bonds defeats the purpose of a bond, borrowing the face value.  For instance, why would someone borrow $100 from you if I had to leave it where you could get to it?  (Hint: They wouldn't, they borrow it to spend it.)  Moreover, the contract said Goat wil buy back the bonds at any time, everyone is inferring that this means he will buy them back whenever they want him to, and this may have been implied elsewhere, but the way it was worded in the original contract (again, for a loan), would only imply that the bonds don't expire, not that you get to collect face value on a whim.  In fact, I believe this was discussed early in the TyGrr-Bank thread (something about when Goat decides to buyback, he will put the money back in GLBSE, puts up a bid wall for all open shares, and ceases to pay interest).  IOW, ANY suggestion that Hashking had ANY right to more than what he CHOSE to sell the bonds for is ridiculous, and the fact that Goat is buying back bonds on request is him going above and beyond to make those requestors happy.

[mila]

I bought 926 bonds at 99.90 and sold 926 bonds at 77.252.  I didn't received Goats promised .1 BTC per bond like promised in his post.  

why, why, why did you sell them in the market for the unfortunate price?

you should not have sell low and buy high. were you buying high?

person that bought the 926 bonds for 77.252 is the guy who got the coupon payment and is the new owner who can sell them back at the face value to goat or at a price he finds acceptable in the market.

[hashking]

The main issue is that Goat said he would buyback any bonds at .10,  he never specified how(his fault).  2nd issue is I held my bonds past the dividend payment date and didn't receive my payment(Goats and Nefario's fault).  He put a poor thread together for his offering.  He didn't cover all aspects on how his bond works.  MAybe that's what happens when you try and slap something together fast without putting any thought into it.

[brendio]

Are there terms in the Tygrr-Bank contract for what happens if a certain condition is not met (i.e. payments made late)?

Unless there are terms that outline what happens in such an eventuality I don't think you can just make them up yourself.

I think you'll find the terms of the contract for TyGrr-Bank Bonds most informative:

<contract> test </contract>

[mila]

but why did you sell to whoever offered the .008x btc per bond?
this is the question. I've lost money on mtgox I know how it feels to produce a net loss by trading and I think I can see how you feel about the loss but I can't see why you blame others for your own actions?

or did I miss a line somewhere where you write your account was hacked and you did not issue the sell order yourself?

[hashking]

but why did you sell to whoever offered the .008x btc per bond?
this is the question. I've lost money on mtgox I know how it feels to produce a net loss by trading and I think I can see how you feel about the loss but I can't see why you blame others for your own actions?

or did I miss a line somewhere where you write your account was hacked and you did not issue the sell order yourself?

I will state this again.  He didn't deliver on what he promised in his offering.

[vampire]

The main issue is that Goat said he would buyback any bonds at .10,  he never specified how(his fault). 

If he never specified how then its your fault. Since he can pick how he wants, he isn't bound by a contract

2nd issue is I held my bonds past the dividend payment date and didn't receive my payment(Goats and Nefario's fault).  He put a poor thread together for his offering.  He didn't cover all aspects on how his bond works.  MAybe that's what happens when you try and slap something together fast without putting any thought into it.

Remember if he didnt cover all aspects it doesnt mean automatically you prevail, in real life it's mostly you loose. If he didn't promise you something then well he isn't responsible for it.

[The00Dustin]

If he never specified how then its your fault. Since he can pick how he wants, he isn't bound by a contract

Remember if he didnt cover all aspects it doesnt mean automatically you prevail, in real life it's mostly you loose. If he didn't promise you something then well he isn't responsible for it.

This.  Also, it isn't Nefario's fault if you didn't understand that GLBSE doesn't have a method for payments as of given dates (preventing you from getting dividend's after you sold the stock), and it isn't Goat's fault his accout was locked (preventing him from paying dividends on his normal schedule), so why are you still trying to blame other people for poor decisions you made while you were ill-informed (buying at greater than face-value after the thread already said he could stop making payments and provide a buy order at any time while knowing his terms were vague and not knowing how GLBSE worked)?

[likuidxd]

2nd issue is I held my bonds past the dividend payment date and didn't receive my payment(Goats and Nefario's fault).  He put a poor thread together for his offering.  He didn't cover all aspects on how his bond works.  MAybe that's what happens when you try and slap something together fast without putting any thought into it.

Remember if he didnt cover all aspects it doesnt mean automatically you prevail, in real life it's mostly you loose. If he didn't promise you something then well he isn't responsible for it.

Dividends are promised in the OP to be paid weekly, every Tuesday @ 6pm Thailand time.

Edit:

I will be selling a 2000 more bonds and lowering the payment to 2.5% on April 3rd. This means that the dividends on March 27th and April 3rd will be at 3% but after that it will be 2.5% until I change it (odds are lower it)

End Edit:

TyGrr-Bank Now operational on GLBSE!

TyGrr-Bank is a BTC bond that will pay weekly dividends every Tuesday 6:00 PM Thailand time.

This is an easy and safe way to lend small amounts of BTC.

The current rate is 3% each week!

Each bond will be sold at .103 BTC and will be bought back at any time at .1 BTC.

This spread is here because you do not need to hold the bond for a full week to get the dividend payment.


Thanks!

I think that pretty much covers that he should be paid his dividend, but only if he can provide proof of ownership at that specific time.
No special conditions are outlined in the contract for this, it is assumed the dividend will be paid

I also just read all your responses in the op, unless I missed something you never stated you had to be contacted to buy back shares.

[mila]

I will state this again.  He didn't deliver on what he promised in his offering.

I understood this the first time you wrote that
and you're probably not aware that payments are not automatic but must be triggered by the asset manager
if the account was locked, then you should wait for him to regain access.

do you also claim the 0.5 % sales fee in your "lost profit"?

[RaggedMonk]

Each bond will be sold at .103 BTC and will be bought back at any time at .1 BTC.

This spread is here because you do not need to hold the bond for a full week to get the dividend payment.

Thanks!

I have no stake in this discussion, but seeing as how this is pretty much the extent of the "contract", I would say hashking was reasonably justified in believing that we would receive the full 0.1BTC.  However, I am not familiar with GLBSE's interface (I find the design very hard to understand) but if it was clear at the time when he sold that he would not be getting the full amount, then I would say buyer beware.

Hashking, did you submit a market order?  Or, were you able to see the price that you would receive for your shares before submitting your order?

[Kluge]

Each bond will be sold at .103 BTC and will be bought back at any time at .1 BTC.

This spread is here because you do not need to hold the bond for a full week to get the dividend payment.

Thanks!

I have no stake in this discussion, but seeing as how this is pretty much the extent of the "contract", I would say hashking was reasonably justified in believing that we would receive the full 0.1BTC.  However, I am not familiar with GLBSE's interface (I find the design very hard to understand) but if it was clear at the time when he sold that he would not be getting the full amount, then I would say buyer beware.

Hashking, did you submit a market order?  Or, were you able to see the price that you would receive for your shares before submitting your order?

Bid orders are clearly shown. I'm not sure why he would sell first, then ask for the cashout amount instead of asking for the contractual cashout amount, then sell when he would've been able to see he wouldn't get the amount requested.

Whoever picked up @ .6 or whatever the sell order was made out like a bandit. In the end of all this, he's the only one who actually turned a profit on all this. 

[Nefario]

I have no stake in this discussion, but seeing as how this is pretty much the extent of the "contract", I would say hashking was reasonably justified in believing that we would receive the full 0.1BTC.  However, I am not familiar with GLBSE's interface (I find the design very hard to understand) but if it was clear at the time when he sold that he would not be getting the full amount, then I would say buyer beware.

Hashking, did you submit a market order?  Or, were you able to see the price that you would receive for your shares before submitting your order?

In GLBSE you must specify the price to buy or sell at, there is no instant buy or sell order, you have to specify the quantity and the price.

This means that HK looked at the buy orders that were there and put in .008 (or whatever the price was) and clicked sell.

There is no way for you to put in a sell order at 1.0 and the trade happen at less than that amount.

[RaggedMonk]

I have no stake in this discussion, but seeing as how this is pretty much the extent of the "contract", I would say hashking was reasonably justified in believing that we would receive the full 0.1BTC.  However, I am not familiar with GLBSE's interface (I find the design very hard to understand) but if it was clear at the time when he sold that he would not be getting the full amount, then I would say buyer beware.

Hashking, did you submit a market order?  Or, were you able to see the price that you would receive for your shares before submitting your order?

In GLBSE you must specify the price to buy or sell at, there is no instant buy or sell order, you have to specify the quantity and the price.

This means that HK looked at the buy orders that were there and put in .008 (or whatever the price was) and clicked sell.

There is no way for you to put in a sell order at 1.0 and the trade happen at less than that amount.

Thanks for clearing that up.  In that case I agree with the general consensus of this thread.