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MoonShadow
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April 26, 2012, 03:04:57 AM
 #21


Dude!  That's awesome!  I'm all over this, thanks!

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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jim618
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April 26, 2012, 06:58:14 AM
 #22

@MoonShadow

That is a very nice little transceiver you have found there. Are those frequencies usable in Europe ?

For the initiation of payments you could do something like:

1) the Bitcoin radio device has a pseudonym (nym) that you configure in sync software. (I am stealing from that thread of mine on 'dedicated bitcoin devices and untrusted networks'). Say mine is 'Jim618'.
2) the PoS terminal has a list of the active devices in the neighbourhood. Say sorted by signal strength or, if there is GPS data, distance. That puts 'Jim618' at the top of the list 
3)When the checkout person wants you to pay they would have to check you were the top nym (or you would say your nym to him/her). Their POS terminal then initiates a payment request by broadcasting a bitcoin URI and the nym e.g.

'jim618 please pay: bitcoin:1<address>&amount=1.234&label=yourgoods

Your device hears the transaction, the nym matches so it asks you on screen if you want to pay. You answer yes, a tx for the amount is created and signed by you and transmitted. Other devices also hear the payment request but the nym does not match and they totally ignore it. The payment tx is then dealt with the same as you have written before.

The nyms are not registered anywhere or even unique, if another Jim618 is in the store shopping they get asked if they want to pay for my goods but of course they say no.  You could change your nym at any time. It could also be used as the username in messaging:

@Jim618 - I see you are in the neighbourhood - want to meet up for coffee ? - Henrietta3


I think you should do a hack to get that transceiver hooked up to a USB output together with a reasonable aerial. The datasheet says it takes serial input. That way developers with breadboarding skills can make a couple and start trying them out. You can crowdsource the writing of the mesh network software ! :-)

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MoonShadow
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April 26, 2012, 07:22:48 AM
 #23

@MoonShadow

That is a very nice little transceiver you have found there. Are those frequencies usable in Europe ?



The 433 mhz band is an international ISM band, just like 2.45 Ghz that wifi uses, so it's legal at less than half a watt most places and no one cares much about the rest since they still work just fine.

Quote
For the initiation of payments you could do something like:

1) the Bitcoin radio device has a pseudonym (nym) that you configure in sync software. (I am stealing from that thread of mine on 'dedicated bitcoin devices and untrusted networks'). Say mine is 'Jim618'.
2) the PoS terminal has a list of the active devices in the neighbourhood. Say sorted by signal strength or, if there is GPS data, distance. That puts 'Jim618' at the top of the list 
3)When the checkout person wants you to pay they would have to check you were the top nym (or you would say your nym to him/her). Their POS terminal then initiates a payment request by broadcasting a bitcoin URI and the nym e.g.

'jim618 please pay: bitcoin:1<address>&amount=1.234&label=yourgoods

Your device hears the transaction, the nym matches so it asks you on screen if you want to pay. You answer yes, a tx for the amount is created and signed by you and transmitted. Other devices also hear the payment request but the nym does not match and they totally ignore it. The payment tx is then dealt with the same as you have written before.

The nyms are not registered anywhere or even unique, if another Jim618 is in the store shopping they get asked if they want to pay for my goods but of course they say no.  You could change your nym at any time. It could also be used as the username in messaging:

@Jim618 - I see you are in the neighbourhood - want to meet up for coffee ? - Henrietta3


That would work, assuming that the 'heartbeat' function was turned on.  However, I'm concerned about a man-in-the-middle type attacker, who places a hacked device hidden near a POS system and randomly attempts to pretend to be the POS register, or just uses a beam antenna from across the street.  Most of the time it wouldn't work anyway, but if it works at all it's a problem.  There would have to be some kind of challenge & response crypto standard, say to display a four digit pin on both the POS system checkout screen and your device so that you can look at them and make certain that they match.  This wouldn't matter for the messaging system, because messages could be encrypted to the receiver's public key, which you aquired some time ago in a 'bump' kind of fashion when tapping the two (gps known and in radio contact) devices together.  If public key encryption is too much for the device (probably not, if it's got to do the bitcoin encryption anyway) the devices could trade a set of random data to be used as one-time-pads.  Actually, for texting this would be better, for public key encryption has the habit of making the messages much longer than any simple text message could be, which is one reason that SMS isn't encrypted normally.  Longer than necessary messages would be a killer for the app.  The messaging functions of the device would simply have to collect entrophy data, and then package that into a one-time-pad, trade that data in near proximity (this is where NFC shines) and encode messages with a 1/1 byte ratio, then add a header that told the receiving device where the message starts in thier pad in case there were unreceived messages, then change all used pad data to zeros.  Any device that used the same nym wouldn't be able to see the message.  Plus we would have to assume that there would be nodes that saved all traffic, so privacy would require encryption anyway.  The device would have to have enough flash memory to keep a several kb of pad data per saved contact.  5kb for the sending pad, 5kb for the receiving pad and you're good for several hundred texts before you have to get close again.  The app could warn you when your pads were getting low.


I think you should do a hack to get that transceiver hooked up to a USB output together with a reasonable aerial. The datasheet says it takes serial input. That way developers with breadboarding skills can make a couple and start trying them out. You can crowdsource the writing of the mesh network software ! :-)
[/quote]

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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April 26, 2012, 08:22:17 AM
 #24

NFC or a cradle at the checkout that you put your device in would make it easier for the POS and paying device to be more certain of each other and pair up. You would not need nyms then.

I am thinking a cradle where the transceivers are close to each other to make it virtually impossible for another transmitter to overpower the signal.

For trading one time pads you also want to make sure you cannot be overheard so you do want to be able to whisper to each other and to be paired.

One time pads would be a great way of maintaining privacy and quick to encode/decode.

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MoonShadow
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April 26, 2012, 09:24:15 PM
 #25

NFC or a cradle at the checkout that you put your device in would make it easier for the POS and paying device to be more certain of each other and pair up. You would not need nyms then.

This is true, and exactly why NFC tech is being included into some phones these days for Google Wallet and other similar credit card substitutions.  I don't know that I would want to depend upon NFC being in every hardware device, however.  I'd much rather start with a single radio device that can manage to do everything that it needs to with that one radio first, if that's possible.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
MoonShadow
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April 26, 2012, 09:26:06 PM
 #26


Although this is a cool project, and I'm sure that I'll participate when the time comes, it's not really relevant to the topic problem.  However, this group is bound to be a great resource regarding the FCC process should a licensed band prove necessary.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
MoonShadow
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April 27, 2012, 04:19:00 AM
 #27

I realized today that I left out an important step in my previous description of the simple biased gossip protocol.  The header of any packet must contain a simple hash of the data, so that (lacking forward error correction) a receiving node can know when the message it heard was corrupted, and simply discard it.  Again, I don't think error correction would be worthwhile because 1) although AM is a noisy mode, UHF tends to not be that bad, at least concerning natural noise and 2) it's not actually necessary that a transaction be heard and forwarded by other devices, it's just beneficial.  The repeated transmission at intervals takes care of the redundancy of data issue without error correction.  I'm guessing it would, anyway.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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April 27, 2012, 04:25:58 AM
 #28

Seems relevant to the thread.


Check out this good deal!
https://bitmit.net/en/trade/i/2383-418-433-mhz-wireless-commnunications-total-value-82/description


 Cool
MoonShadow
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April 27, 2012, 04:58:00 AM
 #29

Yes, relevant.

How did you get ahold of these so cheap, and how many do you have?  I'm going to bid just so I can play with it, but I might need two.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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April 27, 2012, 07:41:38 AM
 #30

Yes, relevant.

How did you get ahold of these so cheap, and how many do you have?  I'm going to bid just so I can play with it, but I might need two.

Sorry, i only have a set in 418 MHZ and a set in 433 Mhz.
I had them for a while for a project. That project will never materialize.
The funny thing is, I was trying to figure out what I would do with them today and ran into this thread.
Pure coincidence!

I paid full price and I'm glad to liquidate them to someone who will put them to good use.

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April 27, 2012, 08:08:06 AM
 #31

I'd much rather start with a single radio device that can manage to do everything that it needs to with that one radio first, if that's possible.

Yes - it would also be less integration work just to have one radio. Keep It Simple.
For transfer of secret data you could use - dare I suggest it - a wire. :-)

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MoonShadow
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April 28, 2012, 02:37:37 AM
 #32

For transfer of secret data you could use - dare I suggest it - a wire. :-)

If I must, but most users are too lazy to do that everytime it's actually necessary.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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April 29, 2012, 05:48:54 AM
 #33

Maybe this GNU Radio Software Defined Radio project is something that can be of help:

http://dev.emcelettronica.com/gnu-radio-open-source-software-defined-radio
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April 29, 2012, 06:42:57 AM
 #34

Maybe this GNU Radio Software Defined Radio project is something that can be of help:

http://dev.emcelettronica.com/gnu-radio-open-source-software-defined-radio

SDR's still cost too much.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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